"Pathfinder 1.5" Musings

[N. Jolly]

Melkiador wrote:

N. Jolly wrote:

So y'all hear about Legendary Games doing this with the codename Corefinder?

I had not, but I'm interested to see what they do with it. I tried looking for more information, but couldn't find anything official. There were just claims it was mentioned in a Discord.

Well, let me go grab the info for it:

Quote:

COREFINDER - This is Pathfinder Refined. It retains the core structure of Pathfinder 1st Ed and is intended to be generally backwards compatible with it, in particular on the GM side, so that existing PFRPG monsters and adventures can be used without the need for massive revisions. It has a lot more room for innovation and redesign on the player side when it comes to classes, feats, and spells. This is an edition that distills the very best of Pathfinder 1E - it fixes the broken, clarifies the muddy, purges the chaff, condenses the redundant, reins in the OP, improves the lame, and polishes what's already good.

It also has a second purpose, which is to extract the core essence of Pathfinder 1E to its Core (hence the Corefinder name) in a way akin to the 1980s Rules Cyclopedia for the BECMI series of D&D modules, and it will present genre-free core for the rules that can be adapted to any genre, PLUS a Corefinder Fantasy module that incorporates magic, magic items, and all the trappings of a traditional PF/D&D-style game. Whether we publish these as separate books or an omnibus is more of a logistical question than anything else, but we would like to have the root Corefinder able to be adapted to different genres and styles.

[Cellion]

Sounds really neat, though as this thread proved, what's considered "the very best of Pathfinder 1E" is highly subjective even among fans of the edition. There's definitely room to make things clear and functional, but when it comes to balance decisions there's a full spectrum of opinions about what needs to be changed.

[N. Jolly]

Trust me, there's no perfect 1.5, and we're not gonna attempt to do something like that. We're going to make the best 1.5 that a team of developers with an incredible pedigree and a history of excellence can do.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Cellion wrote:

Sounds really neat, though as this thread proved, what's considered "the very best of Pathfinder 1E" is highly subjective even among fans of the edition. There's definitely room to make things clear and functional, but when it comes to balance decisions there's a full spectrum of opinions about what needs to be changed.

Not to mention that the core might not have everything needed for a fantasy experience, which is what I assume most people immediately want from a cleaned-up Pathfinder.

[N. Jolly]

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

Cellion wrote:

Sounds really neat, though as this thread proved, what's considered "the very best of Pathfinder 1E" is highly subjective even among fans of the edition. There's definitely room to make things clear and functional, but when it comes to balance decisions there's a full spectrum of opinions about what needs to be changed.

Not to mention that the core might not have everything needed for a fantasy experience, which is what I assume most people immediately want from a cleaned-up Pathfinder.

You're quite right that the core may not have everything. Lucky for y'all, I have a tendency to write too much when it comes to stuff like that, and if we find we're missing things, we're absolutely willing to go back in and fix what we have until it's the best it can be.

[Artofregicide]

N. Jolly wrote:

So y'all hear about Legendary Games doing this with the codename Corefinder?

Keep us updated! I'm very interested.

[Cellion]

N.Jolly, is there a place where you're providing updates about this project or otherwise discussing it? Either on the Paizo forums or outside? I've very curious to hear what direction Legendary Games takes it.

[Melkiador]

Cellion wrote:

N.Jolly, is there a place where you're providing updates about this project or otherwise discussing it? Either on the Paizo forums or outside? I've very curious to hear what direction Legendary Games takes it.

Yeah, it'd be nice to have a place to check for updates, like a webpage or Facebook group.

[N. Jolly]

Cellion wrote:

N.Jolly, is there a place where you're providing updates about this project or otherwise discussing it? Either on the Paizo forums or outside? I've very curious to hear what direction Legendary Games takes it.

Well, there is the Legendary Games discord. I'd have to ping Jason about if there's an FB group or something along those lines.

[Cellion]

Sweet, I just gave the Discord a join. Looks like there's a lot of discussion to read through already.

[Volkard Abendroth]

N. Jolly wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

N. Jolly wrote:

So y'all hear about Legendary Games doing this with the codename Corefinder?

I had not, but I'm interested to see what they do with it. I tried looking for more information, but couldn't find anything official. There were just claims it was mentioned in a Discord.

Well, let me go grab the info for it:

Quote:

COREFINDER - This is Pathfinder Refined. It retains the core structure of Pathfinder 1st Ed and is intended to be generally backwards compatible with it, in particular on the GM side, so that existing PFRPG monsters and adventures can be used without the need for massive revisions. It has a lot more room for innovation and redesign on the player side when it comes to classes, feats, and spells. This is an edition that distills the very best of Pathfinder 1E - it fixes the broken, clarifies the muddy, purges the chaff, condenses the redundant, reins in the OP, improves the lame, and polishes what's already good.

It also has a second purpose, which is to extract the core essence of Pathfinder 1E to its Core (hence the Corefinder name) in a way akin to the 1980s Rules Cyclopedia for the BECMI series of D&D modules, and it will present genre-free core for the rules that can be adapted to any genre, PLUS a Corefinder Fantasy module that incorporates magic, magic items, and all the trappings of a traditional PF/D&D-style game. Whether we publish these as separate books or an omnibus is more of a logistical question than anything else, but we would like to have the root Corefinder able to be adapted to different genres and styles.

Personally, I would be really happy with just giving Pathfinder a comprehensive glossary and standardized rules terminology.

Get rid of 99% of the ambiguity where Pathfinder uses a half-dozen different terms to describe the same thing and then never FAQ when those slight variations in wording create years-long arguments over what does and does not work together.

[Dragon78]

Sounds interesting, you got my attention.

[ErichAD]

Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Personally, I would be really happy with just giving Pathfinder a comprehensive glossary and standardized rules terminology.

Get rid of 99% of the ambiguity where Pathfinder uses a half-dozen different terms to describe the same thing and then never FAQ when those slight variations in wording create years-long arguments over what does and does not work together.

As long as my list of other changes is, this is probably the most needed and most easily agreed upon addition to an upgraded Pathfinder.

[Particular Jones]

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

I hope it comes out better than the Porphyra RPG.

I was maybe thinking of getting it. Can you tell me what you like and don't like about Porphyra?

[Grankless]

Very excited to see where Corefinder goes.

Re: Porphyra: In my opinion, having not read *too* closely in to it, it felt like it added a few too many new mechanics for my liking. Certain aspects of 1E that didn't necessarily need replaced were replaced with equally weird rules.

This is coming from someone who very much loves 2E, and appreciates 1E (just not enough to GM it again).

[LuisCarlos17Fe]

Is Corefinder "free-gender"? Then it's not only for medieval fantasy, but also sci-fi, lovecratian pulp or gothic horror, is it?

[Grankless]

Says right in the blurb that it's "genre-free" (which I assume is what you meant). Very exciting stuff! Savage Worlds does it well (mostly).

[N. Jolly]

LuisCarlos17Fe wrote:

Is Corefinder "free-gender"? Then it's not only for medieval fantasy, but also sci-fi, lovecratian pulp or gothic horror, is it?

Corefinder will not charge you for genders, take as many as you want, free of charge.

And yes, it'll be genre free too. We'll be doing supplements to fill out things that are only relevant for different genres, but the base product is meant to be the starting block for all kinds of adventures, with other supplements for other types of game.s

[Dragon78]

Will the main book just have the core 11 classes or will it start with more?

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Particular Jones wrote:

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

I hope it comes out better than the Porphyra RPG.

I was maybe thinking of getting it. Can you tell me what you like and don't like about Porphyra?

I'm mainly put off by the race list including options from their home setting that don't translate well generically, and the class list felt a little weirdly padded with classes I just wasn't getting the flavor of (Champions seem like just profusions of +1s). I didn't read the whole thing, just skimmed, so please take that into account and YMMV.

[Jason Nelson]

Dragon78 wrote:

Will the main book just have the core 11 classes or will it start with more?

The core basis of Corefinder actually will have FEWER than the core 11 classes, because the core concept (that's a lot of "core") is to provide a root system that is not genre-specific. It gives you the essential skeleton of the PF1 engine, refined and enhanced.

THEN, as an additional Corefinder Fantasy module (or the two may be combined into a single core book) will bring in the fantasy-specific core classes, spells, magic items, and so on.

The idea is to thread the needle for creating a root system that can be used for any genre, without forcing people to say "This thing for sci-fi is like that thing for fantasy, except XYZ." At the same time, given the history of RPGs, it's a reasonable bet that the fantasy module will be the most popular iteration of the project, so we may bundle the two together as the presumptive base set.

In some ways it's more of a logistical question than a technical question - do the two books best fit together. We also could do it both ways - offer them as split modules and a deluxe omnibus that has the Corefinder Basic and Corefinder Fantasy pieces combined.

[Kaouse]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Marking for interest. I didn't see this in a search of this thread, so I'll throw in a word for Kirthfinder -- seems that it would need some updating, but on the other hand, I don't know if the link I gave goes to the latest version; anyway, it has some good ideas.

I would second this. Kirthfinder is everything I wanted out of Pathfinder and more. And it's still backwards compatible!

A more updated version of the system can be found here.

If you have any questions about the system, just ask Kirth Gersen in this thread.

[Dragon78]

Will Corefinder have a physical release or will it be digital only?

[Jason Nelson]

Dragon78 wrote:

Will Corefinder have a physical release or will it be digital only?

Both.

[Thedmstrikes]

Jason Nelson wrote:

Dragon78 wrote:

Will Corefinder have a physical release or will it be digital only?

Both.

I actually had that question in mind too, thanks for asking. Will the print version be POD or a print run? I am not going to lie, the POD offerings from drivethruRPG have not been up to the standards I have come to expect from RPG offerings in any given store.

[Jason Nelson]

Thedmstrikes wrote:

Jason Nelson wrote:

Dragon78 wrote:

Will Corefinder have a physical release or will it be digital only?

Both.

I actually had that question in mind too, thanks for asking. Will the print version be POD or a print run? I am not going to lie, the POD offerings from drivethruRPG have not been up to the standards I have come to expect from RPG offerings in any given store.

It depends on the number of likely customers we have. We'd need to feel pretty certain that we'd be able to sell more than 300-350 copies to make it worth doing an offset print run. Otherwise it's not financially worth it to roll the dice on $10,000 or so worth of offset books.

The quality of POD books has increased quite a bit over the last 3-4 years. Offset books are still *better*, no argument there, but the logistical and financial question is a big one.

[Artofregicide]

Where can I find it more about what's gonna be in Corefinder/what should I be following for news and updates?

[Melkiador]

Artofregicide wrote:

Where can I find it more about what's gonna be in Corefinder/what should I be following for news and updates?

N. Jolly wrote:

Well, there is the Legendary Games discord. I'd have to ping Jason about if there's an FB group or something along those lines.

There doesn't seem to be a good site for info yet. I'm sure Legendary Games will eventually put something on their site when it is closer to release, but right now it seems to be in an early development phase.

[Jason Nelson]

Melkiador wrote:

Artofregicide wrote:

Where can I find it more about what's gonna be in Corefinder/what should I be following for news and updates?

N. Jolly wrote:

Well, there is the Legendary Games discord. I'd have to ping Jason about if there's an FB group or something along those lines.

There doesn't seem to be a good site for info yet. I'm sure Legendary Games will eventually put something on their site when it is closer to release, but right now it seems to be in an early development phase.

Yep, we're still in the development process, so nothing firm to report other than that the project is underway!

[Jason Nelson]

That said, you can definitely sign up for the Legendary Games Discord channel to follow ongoing discussion and conversation about it and with updates coming your way!

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Jason Nelson wrote:

That said, you can definitely sign up for the Legendary Games Discord channel to follow ongoing discussion and conversation about it and with updates coming your way!

I suppose someone could also start a thread on these boards for some visibility and for people who aren't interested in joining Discord.

[GRuzom]

Melkiador wrote:

I think a “book” should probably be dropped entirely. PF1 suffered too much from issues of spacing and formatting. We’re living in the future. The rules should be all digital.

Nah, books are cool and nice to read:-)

For me, that is - people differ, but I like to touch and feeeel ....

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Melkiador wrote:

I think a “book” should probably be dropped entirely. PF1 suffered too much from issues of spacing and formatting. We’re living in the future. The rules should be all digital.

I swore off books a long time ago, and even I don't think we need to go that far.

[Ryan Freire]

GRuzom wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

I think a “book” should probably be dropped entirely. PF1 suffered too much from issues of spacing and formatting. We’re living in the future. The rules should be all digital.

Nah, books are cool and nice to read:-)

For me, that is - people differ, but I like to touch and feeeel ....

I think they should write for pdf, even if they keep doing books. There's definitely language choices that come from spacing issues that have caused rules issues.

[N. Jolly]

Hey, for those of you who want to ask questions directly about Corefinder, we got a thread now.

So yeah, go here for corefinder stuff or check out the discord.

[marc17]

I've been working on something like this, pF 1.5, bot for house rules to my current pathfinder game and my own personal fantasy heartbreaker. PF/3E rules seems perfect for what I want which would be a more immersive, role play based RPG like we used to play AD&D like. It finally has a skill system, crafting rules, etc. I have lots of ideas, some of which I have put into play in the game I run, which has been going on almost four years and nearing 9th level PCs. Some things could be tweaks, some redone, some gotten rid of.

Still, I think the biggest issue is probably the tier system, with fighters and casters standing out the most. Fighters got dumped on with what is not even a straight translation and saddled with difficulties for no other reason than "realism" and to make the game more complicated. Meanwhile casters had all the things that used to hold them back and balance the class gotten rid of till they seemed almost as bad as a Glitter Boy compared to a Street Urchin as far as character classes go.

Anyway, intent is to return the Fighter to their place as being the best at combat, armor, hit points, and saves as they were in AD&D.
*Attacks of Opportunity - I never did like them that much. They complicated and slowed down combat. So, only fighters get them by default. If anybody else wants to stop somebody from running past them, they can hold and action or pick up the feat that lets them make AoO attacks (which requires a BAB +1 prerequisite). Still, that gives figures a neat thing, but not really that special.
*Saves - In AD&D they had the best save in all categories. Pretty much always saving except on a 1 at 20th level. Giving them all good saves would seem to front load them a bit too much. We want to help them out in later levels. I finally decided to go with 3rd and 5th level class abilities called Drill and Discipline. This lets them substitute their fortitude save for Reflex or Will saves respectfully so long as they are not under a condition that has a negative effect. Later the conditions that would cancel out these abilities get reduced in later levels and finally disappears in the teens.
*Armor Damage Reduction - Like the cavalier, after 5th level, they would get a DR that would apply to each die of an attack they take damage from. It would also work on spell damage in most cases so each die of a fireball would be affected if they were hit.
*Feats - Probably have to alter feats. Make some just normal combat procedures. Give Fighters Step Up and a few others early. Make being next to a fighter in melee a really bad idea if you are not suitable to melee.

As for Arcane casters. probably leave the classes mostly as they are. What I would do is change the spells.
*First, there is no reason for so many "ranged touch attack" spells, certainly not cantrips. Fighter's main advantage is their AC and these spells seem to have been made touch just to make it easier on spell casters. Being able to cast Ray of Frost is already equivalent to infinite throwing knives, do they really need to bypass all armor too? If anything should stop an apprentices attempt at barely magic, it would probably be a shield, armor, and heavy padding under neath to stop a bit of frost or acid.
*Second, I'd increase the casting time of most arcane spells one step or so. Instead of a single action, casting a spell would be a full round action. Return to their roll as the fantasy equivalent of a canon that needs to be protected or it will get disabled by cavalry.