You must end the bonus movement granted by this spell in an unoccupied square.The spell wouldn't tell you this if if moving through occupied squares wasn't intended.
Correct. However, "moving through occupied squares" could just as well refer only movement through squares occupied by allies (which is allowed for regular movement without a check), and is thus no evidence that movement through squares occupied by enemies (which is allowed for regular movement only with a check) is intended or allowed.
This spell entails that you instantly move 30 feet, so you move 30 feet. And the only thing that can stop that is something that stops a spell.
Wrong, the spell says "up to 30 feet". If you are stopped after 10 feet because there's some ogre blocking the path than the spell's instructions were followed.
I had this come up a while back. It's 30ft in "any direction", which is 3-dimensional or omnidirectionally, not "any direction" on a flat 2-dimensional plane of North, East, South, West.
"the game is generally assumed to be played in two dimensions"
@Chell Raighn: If none of the regular limitations of movement apply, why do they still but only call out AoOs? Why not leave that "purely up to the discretion of the DM" as well? You act like the spell make you incorporeal for the duration, but it doesn't give any indicaten in that direction.
You're putting more emphasis on the flavor parts than on the rule parts, and you're way overvaluing the word "immediately" - that word only means that it happens as part of casting the spell, nothing more.
You can move through an enemies square normally, but provoke an AoO doing so.
Wrong. "You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless." CRB pg. 193
Blink is movement through the Ethereal plane, that's much different than this Rainbow Dash at 100mph where you're making a strike along the way.
Just pointing out that being "teleportation" is largely irrelevant. Spells do what they say they do. If a spell moves you somewhere, then it moves you somewhere. If a spell takes you to the ethereal plane, then a spell takes you to the ethereal plane, even if it's not teleportation.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I had this come up a while back. It's 30ft in "any direction", which is 3-dimensional or omnidirectionally, not "any direction" on a flat 2-dimensional plane of North, East, South, West."the game is generally assumed to be played in two dimensions"
Let's be serious here. There would be no point in specifying "any direction", if movement in a non-standard direction weren't an option.
I think it's pretty clear (at least to me) that the movement can absolutely go through enemies as well. Heck, the Greater version is very much designed to blast through a crowd of mooks and land in front of (or behind) the big bad. You move 30 ft. Doesn't say it has to be in a clear path, it doesn't say that ground even needs to be there along the way, just that the square can't be occupied where you end up.
It doesn't say that it goes through enemies squares either.
"in a straight line" heavily implies that you are physically moving from points A B C D before Stopping at E:
As does the idea that you're leaving multicolored imageS behind you. If you were mini teleporting, that couldn't happen. you couldn't also attack someone at any point along the line if you were mini teleporting, because you'd never be there. You also wouldn't be ajacent to any creatures at any point if you were mini teleporting.
When you cast this spell, you immediately move up to 30 feet in a straight line
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity.
Insofar as I would expect table variation for moving out of black tentacles with a second level spell i would expect no to be the standard answer.
Let's be serious here. There would be no point in specifying "any direction", if movement in a non-standard direction weren't an option.I had this come up a while back. It's 30ft in "any direction", which is 3-dimensional or omnidirectionally, not "any direction" on a flat 2-dimensional plane of North, East, South, West."the game is generally assumed to be played in two dimensions"
Exactly. Explain Falling rules, Climbing rules, Fly spells, Monsters with Clumsy-Perfect Maneuverability and fly speeds, underwater adventuring, and Merfolk to me at length, and then try to tell me with a straight face that this game isn't played in 3D.
Explain Falling rules, Climbing rules, Fly spells, Monsters with Clumsy-Perfect Maneuverability and fly speeds, underwater adventuring, and Merfolk to me at length, and then try to tell me with a straight face that this game isn't played in 3D.
If you do not understand the difference between "the game is generally assumed to be played in two dimensions" and "this game isn't played in 3D", I cannot help you. Do you want me to link an online dictionary for the word "assumed"?
The FAQ is an official statement on how the rules are written.
Edit: Did you even get that I wasn't making that statement, but merely quoting an official FAQ?
The FAQ is an official statement on how the rules are written.
I'm a little confused as to why someone would say "any direction" in a game with no facing if it didn't work with "up" as a direction.
I don't know. But other options that allow you to move through the air say that you fall when you don't end the movement on firm ground. Actually, they spell it out that you can move through the air in the first place.
The spell makes absolutely no mention of moving through the air, or through creatures or objects (or into the grounds - if "up" is possible, so should be "down", even if you're standing on solid rock). I don't get why people presume that the effects of spells with dozens of lines of description, like Blink, are somehow contained in a word or two in Bladed Dash's description.
At least I try to base all my posts on official, written stuff. On whole sentences, not single words.
I think that, since the spell never mentions what movement type you're using or which movement types you're restricted to, that you ignore limitations based on type of movement. While that interpretation clears up issues of terrain, high winds and such, it leaves some other issues to address.
Since you move in a straight line to a point within 30 feet, you clearly couldn't arrive at a target square behind full cover. But, since creatures don't typically occupy the entire square, I think it's reasonable to say your movement wouldn't be stopped by most creatures. You could aim high in their square and shoot over their head, but your target area better be tall.
Fortunately, neither the overrun maneuver nor the acrobatics check to move through a square occupied by an opponent require a move action, only a move. You don't have a move action to lose if you fail the acrobatics check, but failing that check does provoke an attack of opportunity. While the spell prevents attacks of opportunity from movement, it doesn't appear to prevent them due to failed acrobatics checks or overrun maneuvers without a feat.
The only problem with that reading would be a magus with a bullette style build doubling up on overrun damage and the attacks from the greater version of the spell. But that loses several feat benefits from attacks on prone enemies, so it's probably fine.
My preference would be to simply apply the cover bonus to AC for any creature attacked on the other side of a creature you've moved through, and leave it alone. It's simpler that way.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At least I try to base all my posts on official, written stuff. On whole sentences, not single words.
In many cases a single word adds a ton of meaning. Word count is the constant enemy of concise rules. And though, some examples may bother spelling out that a target in the air falls, that would just be reminder text, because of course the target would fall.
But in this case, you do have to explain why the text bothers to mention "any direction". Clearly there is something non-standard about the directions available, to bother saying that. I can only think of 2 reasons:
1) The movement can be up and doesn't need to worry about the ground.
2) The movement ignores the usual limitations of movement, like moving through an occupied square.
And it's possible "any direction" is there to allow for both of those.
Indeed. No change in eight years.I guess the answer to the OPs question is:
YES it's still contentious.
Yup.
|
At least I try to base all my posts on official, written stuff. On whole sentences, not single words.In many cases a single word adds a ton of meaning. Word count is the constant enemy of concise rules. And though, some examples may bother spelling out that a target in the air falls, that would just be reminder text, because of course the target would fall.
But in this case, you do have to explain why the text bothers to mention "any direction". Clearly there is something non-standard about the directions available, to bother saying that. I can only think of 2 reasons:
1) The movement can be up and doesn't need to worry about the ground.
2) The movement ignores the usual limitations of movement, like moving through an occupied square.And it's possible "any direction" is there to allow for both of those.
It’s also possible that “any direction” is there to allow for casters with a fly speed and was never meant to let someone who can’t fly move up. We won’t likely ever know what was intended.
The spell says you can ignore attacks of opportunity. It does not say you can ignore obstacles, difficult terrain, grapples, or anything else. A GM can make of that what they will.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In my particular case, what made me think of using this in the 'up' direction was the Airy Step feat. It'd be awesome to blast up unto the air, swipe at the flying baddie, and then drift back down smoothly.
And that is sort of the best thing about this spell - is that, at least as I read it, it is one of the most cinematic spells in the game.
I wish I knew which of the guys actually wrote the spell, and what their vision of it was.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
[Since the 5ft-step rules don't care about move actions, but rather that "you move no actual distance", they could cast the spell, but not move as part of it ("up to"). If the spell forced the caster to actually move, they couldn't cast it, just like you can't use the charge action after taking a 5ft-step. your speed, while terrain simply counts as more distance than normal.
Interesting how you are willing to rewrite spell effects without anything in the spell itself implying that it would be affected by the caster’s other actions in the round.
Would you also rule that if I 5’ stepped off a cliff I would not fall, since no other movement is permitted? Why or why not. That movement would be a direct result of the character’s actions. If he would fall, what in the RAW permits a character to benefit from this form of extra movement while blocking spell effects?
Redirection such as bullrush or other forms of forced movement do not count against your movement. Same with falling. This is a disingenuous arguement.[Since the 5ft-step rules don't care about move actions, but rather that "you move no actual distance", they could cast the spell, but not move as part of it ("up to"). If the spell forced the caster to actually move, they couldn't cast it, just like you can't use the charge action after taking a 5ft-step. your speed, while terrain simply counts as more distance than normal.
Interesting how you are willing to rewrite spell effects without anything in the spell itself implying that it would be affected by the caster’s other actions in the round.
Would you also rule that if I 5’ stepped off a cliff I would not fall, since no other movement is permitted? Why or why not. That movement would be a direct result of the character’s actions. If he would fall, what in the RAW permits a character to benefit from this form of extra movement while blocking spell effects?
Forced movement?
How do you define forced movement?
Movement by an agency other than the character?
If I am stepping off a cliff is that choice to fall by the character’s agency or by an external force? If by an external force why would you not consider magic to be an external force? After all, the action taken was a standard action for casting, not movement.
How about if the Bladed Dash was cast by a 3rd party, using a readied action, after the target 5’ stepped. Does that count? There is no saving throw vs Bladed Dash. If not, why? How is this not forced movement, where the spell is forcing the to move some distance (and who chooses the distance, the caster or the recipient)?
I wish I knew which of the guys actually wrote the spell, and what their vision of it was.Apparently they last posted in 2014.
I bow to your search-fu sir.
But in this case, you do have to explain why the text bothers to mention "any direction". Clearly there is something non-standard about the directions available, to bother saying that.
Or maybe, since you can cast the spell after taking a move action, the "any direction" part is only there to tell you that you don't have to continue the direction of any prior movement on your turn, unlike a charge that people might think of when they read the "straight line" part. That seems to be in line with what the writer talked about in the post TOZ linked.
For the record, there are four lines of flavor text in the spell that they could've cut for more rule text.
Interesting how you are willing to rewrite spell effects without anything in the spell itself implying that it would be affected by the caster’s other actions in the round.
I'm not rewriting anything. You cannot perform an action that would render a previous action that you took illegal. Just like using Manyshot prevents you from aborting a full attack because it would make the use of the feat retroactively illegal, does taking a 5ft-step prevents you from doing anything that would move you. Just like Manyshot doesn't spell it out that you can't abort the full attack after using it does the spell not spell it out that you have to abide by this basic concept.
Falling isn't an action. A Fall is the result of circumstances. Falls also take no time. As soon as you enter the circumstance unless you have something that would prevent or modify the fall, you fall the full distance and take the results immediately. Even with a feather fall effect, by RAW you fall the full distance with no regard given for how fast you fall or the time it should take. Guess that explains the lack of sky divers in Galorian.[Since the 5ft-step rules don't care about move actions, but rather that "you move no actual distance", they could cast the spell, but not move as part of it ("up to"). If the spell forced the caster to actually move, they couldn't cast it, just like you can't use the charge action after taking a 5ft-step. your speed, while terrain simply counts as more distance than normal.
Interesting how you are willing to rewrite spell effects without anything in the spell itself implying that it would be affected by the caster’s other actions in the round.
Would you also rule that if I 5’ stepped off a cliff I would not fall, since no other movement is permitted? Why or why not. That movement would be a direct result of the character’s actions. If he would fall, what in the RAW permits a character to benefit from this form of extra movement while blocking spell effects?
Spell resolution is not an action. Spell resolution is the result of a spell being cast. Spell resolution takes no time. Unless something prevents or modifies the spell you resolve the results immediately.
P.S. You are wrong about falling and Feather Fall: falling is 500'/round, Feather Fall is 60'/round.
Ok.
So.
You're a troll. Great.
I seek internal consistency in the rules. What you are proposing has no internal consistency.
But if you can not tell what I meant by forced movement through context of literal example...
Your example is not really relevant to the circumstances at hand, bullrushing a person who 5' stepped was never a point of contention, but there are other examples of forced movement that are, and I listed a few. I am curious how you would resolve the circumstances I used while maintaining internal rules consistency.
Or that bladed dash is a personal spell so a 3rd party couldn't cast it on any target but themselves...
I had assumed you were a rules expert, since you were putting yourself forwards as such.
As a rules expert it should be trivial to name 2-3 ways to use a personal spell on a target other than the caster. If you really need me to explain a few ways, I would be more than happy to do so.
You should not participate in this conversation until you're willing to do so in good faith.
You should really understand how your rulings work in edge cases without the results becoming arbitrary or nonsensical. If your rulings cannot maintain internal consistency, they are flawed and should be reexamined.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Explain Falling rules, Climbing rules, Fly spells, Monsters with Clumsy-Perfect Maneuverability and fly speeds, underwater adventuring, and Merfolk to me at length, and then try to tell me with a straight face that this game isn't played in 3D.If you do not understand the difference between "the game is generally assumed to be played in two dimensions" and "this game isn't played in 3D", I cannot help you. Do you want me to link an online dictionary for the word "assumed"?
The FAQ is an official statement on how the rules are written.
Edit: Did you even get that I wasn't making that statement, but merely quoting an official FAQ?
Hey Derklord, you are really rude. Like, intolerably rude. Why do you come on these boards and crap on everyone? Just the other day you were crapping on Cavall in multiple threads. What’s your deal guy?
I'm not so contentious about the LINE you choose to move. You want to go straight up 30' with Blade Dash? Fine, have fun coming back down. The thing I can't wrap my head around is this spell moving the PC through solid objects.
Could you use this spell to move through a closed, locked door? Could you go through a glass window pane? How about a boulder blocking a cave entrance? If the PC were in a 10' x 10' x 10' square chamber with 1' of stone ceiling overhead blocking their way to another similar chamber upstairs, could they just Blade Dash into that upper room?
While the spell doesn't explicitly say it DOES that, it also doesn't explicitly say it DOESN'T do that. So, do you move through solid objects or, to be more precise, could you move to a point your PC couldn't actually see?
On that ruling, at MY table, I would rule that no, you can't just go through a solid object. Extrapolating from that, I would then further say that your straight line move would obey other rules of movement in regards to the physical world around you - low obstacles and difficult terrain in your path would eat up squares of your movement, going through an enemy's square would be impossible except under specific conditions, etc.
Your table ruling may vary and that's ok, I'm not telling you how to play your game. Thanks for the lively debate on this!
I don't think you should be able to go through solid objects because you still occupy physical space while you're moving, otherwise, how do all the attacks happen if you're not occupying physical space?
how do all the attacks happen if you're not occupying physical space?
Magic.
But I think we're just going round and round at this point. No one is going to change their mind. No new useful information is likely to come to light. So, I'm going to save myself a few sanity points and go ahead and hide this conversation. Good luck guys.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The way some people break things down in order to argue about it is amazing to me... like intentionally finding things to argue about... the rules boards make me not want to be friends with anyone, ever.
As for the spell in question... it's every anime/video game Bladed Dash... the character zips AROUND, not through, and leaves the tracer images in their wake. Think about literally every time you have been presented with a vampire in the movies/games... they move fast, and it is usually represented by the exact effect that this spell describes.
You don't provoke attacks of opportunity, just drop the Acrobatics checks nonsense entirely, because magic.
Two medium sized creatures can pass each other in a 5' square, but you aren't phasing through anyone.
You are not going through any solid objects.
You can go up, but you obviously fall afterwards.
You cannot escape from a Grapple with it, or Black Tentacles, or from the jaws of a monster.
Permission by omission is not a valid argument in the rules boards for PF1... in every other instance, it has proven to be an inclusive or nothing rules system.
The way some people break things down in order to argue about it is amazing to me... like intentionally finding things to argue about... the rules boards make me not want to be friends with anyone, ever.
As for the spell in question... it's every anime/video game Bladed Dash... the character zips AROUND, not through, and leaves the tracer images in their wake. Think about literally every time you have been presented with a vampire in the movies/games... they move fast, and it is usually represented by the exact effect that this spell describes.
You don't provoke attacks of opportunity, just drop the Acrobatics checks nonsense entirely, because magic.
Two medium sized creatures can pass each other in a 5' square, but you aren't phasing through anyone.
You are not going through any solid objects.
You can go up, but you obviously fall afterwards.
You cannot escape from a Grapple with it, or Black Tentacles, or from the jaws of a monster.
Permission by omission is not a valid argument in the rules boards for PF1... in every other instance, it has proven to be an inclusive or nothing rules system.
^---- this
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree with everything voodistmonk says except the going up part. And I would likely have difficult terrain count. Maybe I'm just being too strict but 30 feet vertical strikes for a level 2 spell is a lot. But I'm old and scared of new things.
And for my personal vision of the spell it makes you look like Johnny Cage shadow kicking.
I wouldn't use it for vertical striking, like vs. a flying target. You're going to take 3d6 falling dmg and fall prone, so it hardly seems worth it to me. I would use it to dash up to people on ledges, rooftops, or high ground though.
Just for fun...
What happens if you cast Bladed Dash as your standard action during a Flyby Attack?
Flyby Attack states that you cannot take another move action, but Bladed Dash is not a move action, so...
I could almost see that but again I would apply difficult terrain and air walking goes past "difficult". If I were to change my mind on that maybe that would be fine.
But also seems a way to leap 30 feet across a gap. Again I'm unsure I like that idea. But most of my views are as the GM not as the player so I don't like a lot of spells that handwave thjngs that are suppose to challenge the party, and making all gaps 35 to 40 feet just to be a dick seems uncool too.
I think for my games its just going to remain a great way to get behind enemy lines without provoking and getting a free hit in for it.
Yeah, I can see that. I still wouldn't think it's game breaking to have it go through the air though. It only allows 1 person to get across the 30ft gap, so the rest of the party would still have to figure something out.
Just for fun...
What happens if you cast Bladed Dash as your standard action during a Flyby Attack?
Flyby Attack states that you cannot take another move action, but Bladed Dash is not a move action, so...
I think it'd work :P
You guys won't believe this but they actually just officially errata'd Bladed Dash and have assured us "Bladed Dash is no longer a source of contention at tables."
But what will we argue about?
Oh well, I guess I will just have to start a Bladed Brush thread then...
You guys won't believe this but they actually just officially errata'd Bladed Dash and have assured us "Bladed Dash is no longer a source of contention at tables."
LOL XD
Regarding the 'Talk to your GM' recommendation, this character is a pfs character, where 'talk to your GM' isn't necessarily an answer.
You guys won't believe this but they actually just officially errata'd Bladed Dash and have assured us "Bladed Dash is no longer a source of contention at tables."
Except, being from a softcover, it is immune from actual rules clarifications (no FAQ or Errata for soft covers - because Paizo).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At least I try to base all my posts on official, written stuff. On whole sentences, not single words.
First off, it's two words.
Secondly, those words are written.
Third, applying a general rule to a specific circumstance doesn't always work because there are specific exceptions. You're trying to argue that your stuff is official and always applies when the wording as written would be a specific exception. The fly spells references to up and down for example would be nonsensical if you tried to apply a trend as an unbreakable rule.
Fourth "hey, this little bit of wording here doesn't quite fit that paradigm..." is just that. The words could be in error, they could be misleading, I might be misreading them, the author may have had something else completely in mind etc. There's NO call for getting this snippy for looking at the words, turning the page a bit and saying "i think it looks like this because of that".
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You guys won't believe this but they actually just officially errata'd Bladed Dash and have assured us "Bladed Dash is no longer a source of contention at tables."Except, being from a softcover, it is immune from actual rules clarifications (no FAQ or Errata for soft covers - because Paizo).
That has more to do with them moving on to P2 than it originally being in a Softcover, they did Errata and FAQs for stuff with them.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
For the record, there are four lines of flavor text in the spell that they could've cut for more rule text.
Four lines of flavor text, really? Have you even read the spell at all?
When you cast this spell, you immediately move up to 30 feet in a straight line any direction, momentarily leaving a multi-hued cascade of images behind you. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You may make a single melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against any one creature you are adjacent to at any point along this 30 feet. You gain a circumstance bonus on your attack roll equal to your Intelligence or Charisma modifier, whichever is higher. You must end the bonus movement granted by this spell in an unoccupied square. If no such space is available along the trajectory, the spell fails. Despite the name, the spell works with any melee weapon.
There is 1 partial line of flavor text in the entire spell description, the rest is straight up rule text.
"When you cast the spell, you immediately move up to 30 feet in a straight lin in any direction," - Rules text.
"momentarily leaving a multi-hued cascade of images behind you." - flavor text.
"This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity." - Rules text.
"You may make a single melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against any one creature you are adjacent ot at any point along this 30 feet." - Rules text.
"You gain a circumstance bonus on your attack roll equal to your Intelligence or Charisma modifier, whichever is higher." - Rules text.
"You must end the bonus movement granted by this spell in an unoccupied square." - Rules text.
"If no such space is available along the trajectory, the spell fails." - Rules text.
"Despite the name, the spell works with any melee weapon." Rules text/Clarification text.
So tell me where are these "four lines of flavor text" you speak of.
It is nice to know that a magus with a lot of int damage could use a scroll of this and add his charisma if its higher.
By nice I mean will never come up but funny.
there is a charisma magus