Almost tempted to want to make the Spell Guide into a spreadsheet having columns with ratings for the various spellcasters. The initial conversion would be an awful lot of work, but it would make subsequent maintenance and expansion a lot easier.
Why do you rate Antimagic Field as more useful for divine spellcasters than arcane/occult?
Because it is easier for divine casters to use their magic after or before combat. If they need to buff before antimagic is cast it still works at least for the people outside or who move outside the antimagic field or when the field goes down.
Its just that generally they rely less on direct offensive magic. Though this is an 8th level spell so divine casters do have lost of offensive options at that level.I guess the difference is very minor.
Updated this guide too
Can I recommend the Tengu Race with Squawk and the Thunder Gods Fan for 3 extra level 5 lightning bolts per day. Very nice for anyone, but especially a Divine or Occult Sorcerer
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“Normally ignore the Scales of the Dragon which can be awful and degrade your base AC for 2 extra elemental resistance”
Small correction: it’s 3 extra energy resistance based on dragon type
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I added a new commentary section about choice of spells for a control caster.
This was inspired by watching some of Treantmonks content. I realise I need to explain how Control works in PF2. It's sailing over the head of new players.
Basically keeping some enemies distracted or neutralised for a few rounds so you can take them on a few at a time, is normally the best tactic for a caster.
Comments welcome.
Thank you Paizo for a game with lots of options.
I added a new commentary section about choice of spells for a control caster.
This was inspired by watching some of Treantmonks content. I realise I need to explain how Control works in PF2. It's sailing over the head of new players.
Basically keeping some enemies distracted or neutralised for a few rounds so you can take them on a few at a time, is normally the best tactic for a caster.
Comments welcome.
Thank you Paizo for a game with lots of options.
Big fan of the additions, I think the recommendations are great but the explanations will go a long way for newer players looking for advice. PF2 Casting does take some getting used to whether you're coming from 1st Edition or 5e and this helps tons.
Do you plan on adding your thoughts on the two new bloodlines or are you waiting to do a big update once SoM drops?
Yes. I'll get on it this week.
I'm challenged a bit by what Light_Mnemonic did whith his guide.
I like the way he has been able to condense it. My guides are a bit of a wall of text, though perhaps not as bad as some guides which read like an encyclopedia. I'm hoping that the links and indexes help.
So trying to give advice in a more concise targetted manner. I have a new group of players to GM who haven't played PF2 before. My guides are probably too detailed for them to start with.
Still thinking...
I don't mind long guides as long as they back up their length with a proportionate amount of substance.
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Yes. I'll get on it this week.
I'm challenged a bit by what Light_Mnemonic did whith his guide.
I like the way he has been able to condense it. My guides are a bit of a wall of text, though perhaps not as bad as some guides which read like an encyclopedia. I'm hoping that the links and indexes help.So trying to give advice in a more concise targetted manner. I have a new group of players to GM who haven't played PF2 before. My guides are probably too detailed for them to start with.
Still thinking...
To be fair, Str/Cha Support Cleric is a super constrained problem that helped keep it nice and clean. Sorcerer has got to be the hardest class to outline and you've done a fantastic job.
That said, hopefully the guide I posted can be downloaded/mirrored locally? Totally steal or mess around with any of that shit that you like. I am a firm believer in egalitarian data visualization and communication.
I may or may not do a Bard Guide if this Cleric thing didn't get the design bug out of my system. I'll share my notes if I do, I imagine it'd be a much closer analogue.
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Okay. Got a chance to put the new bloodlines in Mwangi Expanse
Wymblessed is a really good Divine caster. Picks up a great buffing spell in Haste. So good protective and healing options. Nothing really extra offensively except the Breath weapon of course.
The downside is I can't see the Blood magic benefit being of any use as you should always Intimidate before you cast not after, then the benefit disappears at the start of your next turn.
and
Phoenix
which is just an awesome top level primal blaster caster. It picks up some of the best wizard classics like Disintegrate and Contingency. The first focus spell Rejuvenating Flames is a brilliant blast that heals allies and burns enemies. If you like to play arcane blasters in previous editions, give this one a serious look.
Okay. Got a chance to put the new bloodlines in Mwangi Expanse
Wymblessed is a really good Divine caster. Picks up a great buffing spell in Haste. So good protective and healing options. Nothing really extra offensively except the Breath weapon of course.
The downside is I can't see the Blood magic benefit being of any use as you should always Intimidate before you cast not after, then the benefit disappears at the start of your next turn.and
Phoenix
which is just an awesome top level primal blaster caster. It picks up some of the best wizard classics like Disintegrate and Contingency. The first focus spell Rejuvenating Flames is a brilliant blast that heals allies and burns enemies. If you like to play arcane blasters in previous editions, give this one a serious look.
I must say, Pheonix seems a little weird with how it encourages you to play in the frontlines with its Bloodline Spells. It might warrant a Champion MC to support the playstyle.
Also, the numbers on Rejuvenating Flames are really low, I'm not sure why you rate it so highly. 1d4 damage per spell level is terrible, and 1d4 healing isn't that good either.
Also, the numbers on Rejuvenating Flames are really low, I'm not sure why you rate it so highly. 1d4 damage per spell level is terrible, and 1d4 healing isn't that good either.
Its good every time. As long as there are enemies in range. Phoenix is adding plus 2 per die
Also, the numbers on Rejuvenating Flames are really low, I'm not sure why you rate it so highly. 1d4 damage per spell level is terrible, and 1d4 healing isn't that good either.Its good every time. As long as there are enemies in range. Phoenix is adding plus 2 per die
What do you mean adding 2 per die?
If you're talking about the Dangerous Sorcery + Blood Magic effect, then the Blood Magic effect only works on a single target, which means it's more like +1 per die.And even so, the damage is still super low, and the additional +1 per spell level from Dangerous Sorcery isn't enough to redeem it, especially considering that it's added to other blast spells as well, and not uniquely to Rejuvenating Flames.
The numbers are just not good enough to justify using 2 actions on it unless you're completely out of spell slots. 5d4 + 5 damage in a 15ft cone at level 10 is just sad, and 5d4 (12.5) healing is is not great at all.
Also, the numbers on Rejuvenating Flames are really low, I'm not sure why you rate it so highly. 1d4 damage per spell level is terrible, and 1d4 healing isn't that good either.Its good every time. As long as there are enemies in range. Phoenix is adding plus 2 per die
Dangerous Sorcery only affects the spells from your spell slots and Blood Magic only one of the targets it if fails it's save. So, it's not 2 per die, but nearly nothing per die.
Yep. Ok that makes a difference. Funny how we get rules wrong. Burn It! would help though.
The main reason I like Rejuvenating Flames is that it is party friendly, and is also helpful to them. Damage wise its about the same as electric arc so not great then. But it is almost always useful. I see it as a round 2 or 3 cast, once everyone is fully engaged and you can't get your big multitarget spells off. Hopefully widened. Because it is never going to hurt your party.
Worst case it is minor repeatable out of combat healing.
Not superpowerful but always useful.
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You can't compare it to Electric Arc. At very high level, it's comparable in terms of damage. But at low level, the +4 bonus from your main attribute makes Electric Arc way more efficient. Also, 30ft of range and no cone.
I agree with you that the repeatable out of combat healing is nice, as it's a spell you get at level 1. In my opinion, it's more of a super niche spell that can sometimes be nice but will mostly be used for supplemental out of combat healing.
I found Rejuvenating Flames to be a fair bit underwhelming in terms of numbers, so I whipped up a 5th level version that jumps the dice up to d6 and grants temporary hit points to all allies (effectively overwriting the defensive blood magic). Seems like it might be overtuned but I can adjust downward later on. So far it hasn't been overly compelling to the point of ignoring other focus spells or actions, but it is a new addition to my game.
Edit: Just looked at my writeup and I actually reduced the dice number by 1 (4d6 as a Focus 5). So it is only barely better at level 9 but scales more favorably from there.
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It also add +1 fortitude to allies in the area for 1 minute, that can be quite handy.
I'd say from 3+ targets (allies + enemies) that is better than using a cantrip.
(15foot might be a bit short for a Sorcerer though)
Okay. Got a chance to put the new bloodlines in Mwangi Expanse
Wymblessed is a really good Divine caster. Picks up a great buffing spell in Haste. So good protective and healing options. Nothing really extra offensively except the Breath weapon of course.
The downside is I can't see the Blood magic benefit being of any use as you should always Intimidate before you cast not after, then the benefit disappears at the start of your next turn.and
Phoenix
which is just an awesome top level primal blaster caster. It picks up some of the best wizard classics like Disintegrate and Contingency. The first focus spell Rejuvenating Flames is a brilliant blast that heals allies and burns enemies. If you like to play arcane blasters in previous editions, give this one a serious look.
What if a Wyrmblessed Sorcerer used their first two actions to cast a spell to buff a party member with Haste or Resist Energy, and then their third to Demoralize a nearby enemy? I can easily see the blood magic effect being helpful in a combat situation.
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What if a Wyrmblessed Sorcerer used their first two actions to cast a spell to buff a party member with Haste or Resist Energy, and then their third to Demoralize a nearby enemy? I can easily see the blood magic effect being helpful in a combat situation.
The downside is I can't see the Blood magic benefit being of any use as you should always Intimidate before you cast not after, then the benefit disappears at the start of your next turn.and
Phoenix
which is just an awesome top level primal blaster caster. It picks up some of the best wizard classics like Disintegrate and Contingency. The first focus spell Rejuvenating Flames is a brilliant blast that heals allies and burns enemies. If you like to play arcane blasters in previous editions, give this one a serious look.
Sure that works. Not technically useless. But in practical turns almost.
Why wouldn't you rather intimidate the target of your spell first so it affects their saving throw? Was your action of so low value that you don't care about increasing your own chances of being effective? I'd only do it that way if my target was already frightened.
Bottom line is these types of guides are full of opinions. Sometimes your game is different and the authors opinions are just meanless. So work it out for yourself. Just understand why they like or don't like something you do.
What if a Wyrmblessed Sorcerer used their first two actions to cast a spell to buff a party member with Haste or Resist Energy, and then their third to Demoralize a nearby enemy? I can easily see the blood magic effect being helpful in a combat situation.
The downside is I can't see the Blood magic benefit being of any use as you should always Intimidate before you cast not after, then the benefit disappears at the start of your next turn.and
Phoenix
which is just an awesome top level primal blaster caster. It picks up some of the best wizard classics like Disintegrate and Contingency. The first focus spell Rejuvenating Flames is a brilliant blast that heals allies and burns enemies. If you like to play arcane blasters in previous editions, give this one a serious look.Sure that works. Not technically useless. But in practical turns almost.
Why wouldn't you rather intimidate the target of your spell first so it affects their saving throw? Was your action of so low value that you don't care about increasing your own chances of being effective? I'd only do it that way if my target was already frightened.
Bottom line is these types of guides are full of opinions. Sometimes your game is different and the authors opinions are just meanless. So work it out for yourself. Just understand why they like or don't like something you do.
Why would an ally need to make a saving throw if you're casting a buff spell on them?
{. . .}
Why would an ally need to make a saving throw if you're casting a buff spell on them?
Barbarian with Superstition Instinct?
On a scale from 1 to "Redblade go home, you're drunk," how much of this guide's advice would you say is also applicable to witches? My gut says, probably somewhere in the middle of that range.
On a scale from 1 to "Redblade go home, you're drunk," how much of this guide's advice would you say is also applicable to witches? My gut says, probably somewhere in the middle of that range.
Quite useful. If you're a prepared caster, you can look at picking up more situational spells if you expect to cast them a few times (if you want to have a spell on hand but never know when to prepare it, get a scroll for a little more gold instead), but the ratings still hold up.
Has anything changed regarding archetype ratings? With the changes to casting proficiency and additions like exemplar? Seems like a lot of the blues emphasize the old style of spell DC progression.
My understanding is the spell proficiency is going to be the same everywhere, but the attribute modifier will vary. So an Arcane Sorcerer casting a spell slots from his Wizard archetype has to use his Intelligence score not his Charisma. So the rules are simpler and better, but there will still likely be a couple of points in it and you still really want to archetype into casting classes with the same attribute if possible.
Is that what you are concerned about?
Is that what you are concerned about?I'm just having a "difficult" time navigating the relative strength of the various archetypes, maybe a bit confused by some of the texts in the guide which seem to imply that ratings are based upon the old system. Like Runescarred, Red Mantis Assassin (?), Halcyon Speaker being mentioned for their innate spells when they give only as good or worse rate of spell slots/spells known than you would get through simply picking Bard or Oracle. Captivator seems to be the only archetype that actually grants things quicker + higher potential (lvl 9).
So, I guess my question becomes whether or not these things still hold water. Is Bard still green even though it gives more occult spells/slots than blue rated alternatives? Isn't innate casting nearly strictly worse than regular casting proficiency now (as long as you're able to cast from the right attribute) due to the latter giving access to scrolls, wands, spellhearts, etc.?
I'll go back and look at them again, but give me a week. There is a lot of text I never revised. I'm not sure it is possible to be totally objective about these things. The point of my guide is to say what I think works and what doesn't. Really to point you towards a few highlights that I think work well. Whether something is 3 or 4 stars is often just an opinion.
That I like multiclass Psychic more than Bard or Druid more than Cleric is reasonable even if others would disagree.
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Isn't innate casting nearly strictly worse than regular casting proficiency now (as long as you're able to cast from the right attribute) due to the latter giving access to scrolls, wands, spellhearts, etc.?
I don't think you need any casting ability to use spellhearts.
Yes I think innate casting is worse than regular casting unless Charisma is your primary statistic. Given the number of potions, elixers, gadgets and misc items I would be careful not to over value being able to cast spells. Normally someone in your party can. I do see a lot of groups where everyone ends up with a casting proficiency from mid level. I don't think it is a good idea. It adds complexity, and spell casting hides other good options.
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I do see a lot of groups where everyone ends up with a casting proficiency from mid level. I don't think it is a good idea. It adds complexity, and spell casting hides other good options.
Spells like Tailwind make gaining a casting proficiency a VERY attractive option. This specific spell is probably the reason that so many of my characters have an archetype or, at the least, trick magic item as a skill feat.
And its nice (especially in something like PFS) to have a heal scroll or 2 in your pocket for emergencies. And not having to Trick it can be very important.
I'm not saying there is no benefit. But there is a cost especially an opportunity cost. A potion is often going to be enough.
I'm not saying there is no benefit. But there is a cost especially an opportunity cost. A potion is often going to be enough.Right, and that was pretty much the root of my confusion in the guide. Archetypes like Runescarred, Osatia Skysage, Red Mantis(?) being rated blue when the description implies that the significant thing they give is the ability to cast some very specific subset of spells from another list with the old proficiency mechanic. Compared to Captivator, for instance, which gives much better spell progression (rate of acquisition, faster than class archetypes even) alongside some really good feats. Just seems to me like there is a significant gap in potential between the former and the latter, but there might be other perks I've missed!
Edit: I suppose being able to cast with charisma might be a part of the rating for some of these, but you can also achieve that more flexibly with some of the class archetypes (Oracle/Bard for Divine/Occult+Breadth). While Oracle is blue too, Bard is just green.
It is too much to give a detailed background on every archetype. The guide is very long as it is. The archetypes do have their own strengths and weaknesses. Yes there are some limits on Runescarred spell casting. But it is a strong archetype. Osatia Skysage and Red Mantis don't have those limits. They all have potential.