Human-Half Elf-Elf Atavism-Ancient Elf

[Timeshadow]

So is this the best multiclassing race Ever....possibly even a contender for best race currently period.

With all the "Human/Elf/Half elf" ancestries unlocked plus starting with a multiclass feat this is super strong and has no real drawbacks and so many advantages.

[Debelinho]

yeah....you can trade 3 ancestry feats for 3 "class" feats...but 1 is 1st level, the other 2 are 2nd level dedication feats

so if your builds needs extra 1st and 2nd level class feats to work, it's nice to have that as an option

very few builds really benefit from all 3, so I don't think we'll be seeing that too often

Ranger is best example to have 3 1st level feats that he want's to take(hunted shot, twin takedown, animal companion)....so if he also want's to multiclass, Half-elf is teh way to go :)

drawback is that you don't have any real ancestry abilities...like a human without his bonus general feat :)

[The Gleeful Grognard]

I would argue that half-elf cannot physically qualify for ancient elf. At least not with the default age limitations.

"You typically can’t select a heritage that depends on or improves an elven feature you don’t have."

I know some GMs that would allow it, but I wouldn't expect it to be universal.

[Deadmanwalking]

The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

I would argue that half-elf cannot physically qualify for ancient elf. At least not with the default age limitations.

"You typically can’t select a heritage that depends on or improves an elven feature you don’t have."

I know some GMs that would allow it, but I wouldn't expect it to be universal.

Eh. Half Elves live up to 150 years. Anywhere north of 100 seems reasonable to me as 'ancient'. You'd need to actually be playing an older character (ie: a Half Elf getting towards the end of their lifespan), rather than a 200 year old Elf who's still going strong, but it seems very reasonable to me for a Half Elf to have it.

[Reziburno25]

Wouldnt they slap age requirement on like ancestral longetivy if did require 100 or more years. So probally either intentional or needs later eratta to adjust it.

Also that text of you "You typically can’t select a heritage that depends on or improves an elven feature you don’t have." doesn't apply ever. It likely there for likely something in future but for now it just fluff.

[The-Magic-Sword]

Reziburno25 wrote:

Wouldnt they slap age requirement on like ancestral longetivy if did require 100 or more years. So probally either intentional or needs later eratta to adjust it.

Also that text of you "You typically can’t select a heritage that depends on or improves an elven feature you don’t have." doesn't apply ever. It likely there for likely something in future but for now it just fluff.

I'm pretty sure it's guidelines for the GM to make a ruling

[The Gleeful Grognard]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

I would argue that half-elf cannot physically qualify for ancient elf. At least not with the default age limitations.

"You typically can’t select a heritage that depends on or improves an elven feature you don’t have."

I know some GMs that would allow it, but I wouldn't expect it to be universal.

Eh. Half Elves live up to 150 years. Anywhere north of 100 seems reasonable to me as 'ancient'. You'd need to actually be playing an older character (ie: a Half Elf getting towards the end of their lifespan), rather than a 200 year old Elf who's still going strong, but it seems very reasonable to me for a Half Elf to have it.

Humans live up to 90 (in pf2e as written), ancient as a term doesn't just mean old but very old. And 150 is a long way off 600 years, ancient elf (to me) suggests that it is old for an elf.

As I said, some GMs would allow for it but I wouldn't expect it to be every GM and elf atavism specifically allows for a GM to make the call.

[Ediwir]

As there is no hard line on age limits, ancient elf is up to the GM.

I'd be ok with it. After all, Ancient Elf has been examined and pulled apart more times than can be counted, and the result was "not as powerful as it initially seems". If someone wants it, sure thing.

[lemeres]

The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

I would argue that half-elf cannot physically qualify for ancient elf. At least not with the default age limitations.

"You typically can’t select a heritage that depends on or improves an elven feature you don’t have."

I know some GMs that would allow it, but I wouldn't expect it to be universal.

Eh. Half Elves live up to 150 years. Anywhere north of 100 seems reasonable to me as 'ancient'. You'd need to actually be playing an older character (ie: a Half Elf getting towards the end of their lifespan), rather than a 200 year old Elf who's still going strong, but it seems very reasonable to me for a Half Elf to have it.

Humans live up to 90 (in pf2e as written), ancient as a term doesn't just mean old but very old. And 150 is a long way off 600 years, ancient elf (to me) suggests that it is old for an elf.

As I said, some GMs would allow for it but I wouldn't expect it to be every GM and elf atavism specifically allows for a GM to make the call.

150 is the kind of age where a dwarf would still be gripping with their midlife crisis. And the elders of the gnome community would tell people about embarrassing stories about what trouble he got up to with your half elf when you guys were young.

Elves get terms like "ancient" because they are barely entering middle age when next longest lived common race is at the "geezer" stage. They turn "forlorn" because there is basically no common race that is close to their aging rate.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

lemeres wrote:

150 is the kind of age where a dwarf would still be gripping with their midlife crisis. And the elders of the gnome community would tell people about embarrassing stories about what trouble he got up to with your half elf when you guys were young.

Elves get terms like "ancient" because they are barely entering middle age when next longest lived common race is at the "geezer" stage. They turn "forlorn" because there is basically no common race that is close to their aging rate.

Well yeah, that is the point. People aren't playing a 150 year old half elf, in the same way they wouldn't be playing a 90 year old human in general.

They are more likely playing a 90-120 year old half elf.
If they bother trying at all, I have had three players just try and take the feat and give the characters normal young human ages already. (I run a lot of intro/public games)

[Themetricsystem]

This really isn't THAT game breaking but I personally come down on the side says "Ancient" indicates that the PC is old even in Elven terms and that is just flat-out impossible to achieve for a Half-Elf as a starting character since there is (currently) no way to access immortality as a starting character.

This is up to each GM as the text states but since the age requirements of the Feat combination indicate it cannot be used to gain something that you don't already actually possess, and I believe that the Lifespan almost certainly qualifies for this restriction.

This does probably need to be more heavily codified IMO, otherwise, I do suspect this will end up causing some imbalance in organized play whereby the Society will suddenly be flooded with gray-haired 145 year old Half-Elf adventurers who have inexplicably all decided that NOW is the perfect time to start their adventuring careers.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

Oh for the record, my personal restrictions have nothing to do with game balance but more for thematics.

A multiclass dedications are hardly the be all end all, I would choose darkvision any day if I was choosing for power.

It is actively not an option for anyone aiming for a non multiclass dedication.

It doesn't let you choose natural ambition at level 1 where it would have the biggest impact for most classes.

Mechanically it is a very good option, but that is it. Even for stuff like seer elf that suffers a little for not having any elf feats tied to it. It's circumstance bonus to magical identification is actually pretty solid and arguably the best part of the heritage if you took it, not detect magic (even if it does take a while to come online fully).

[Syries]

Eh to me the point of the Ancient heritage is not that you’ve just lived a long time, but that you’ve also been able to pick up some tricks from a class that is not your own without formal training or whatnot.

So if you’re a half elf that’s old and justifiably able to make sense of how you ended up training with every martial weapon (or at least every weapon group) to be able to start with Fighter dedication, even though you’re a wizard, yeah sure why not.

[Syries]

Actually, a bit more on that now that I’m thinking of it. Any character can be old. A cavern elf and a seer elf and a woodland elf can all also grow into being “ancient” so why wouldn’t they also gain the benefits of the ancient elf heritage? (other than mechanics- we’re talking thematics here)

So something about the ancient elf heritage should have some sort of physical property to set other elf heritages apart from itself, other than just physical age.

Maybe you have a draconic bloodline that has been traced for thousands of years and that “ancient” power awakens in you at your old age, granting you sorcerer dedication. Something along those lines that set the ancient heritage apart from others.

[Squiggit]

Syries wrote:

So something about the ancient elf heritage should have some sort of physical property to set other elf heritages apart from itself, other than just physical age.

Heritages don't have to be physical (i.e. skilled and versatile humans). It's really just the age thing.

[nicholas storm]

There is nothing mechanically about ancient elf that says you how old you are. It says

In your long life, you’ve dabbled in many paths and many
styles. Choose a class other than your own.

[Rysky]

Long life.

[Deadmanwalking]

Yeah, I think anyone saying you don't need to be 'ancient' by at least some definition in order to take 'Ancient Longevity' is being kind of unreasonable.

That said, anyone who even can take it can easily be older than human beings can get and there are no longer aging penalties, so it's a purely flavor restriction.

[Isiah.AT]

Rysky wrote:

Long life.

Relative to who/what? 6 years is a long life for a guinea pig. With out a specific call out it is simply flavor text.

[mrspaghetti]

Isiah.AT wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Long life.

Relative to who/what? 6 years is a long life for a guinea pig. With out a specific call out it is simply flavor text.

Anyone referring to a 6-year-old guinea pig as "ancient" is being tongue-in-cheek. I think the reason there's an Ancient Elf and not an Ancient Goblin or anything else is that elves obviously live much longer than any other race. In that context, it makes sense that no other race would be physically capable of it. Ancient is in terms of an elven lifespan for this feat.

[Red Griffyn]

I get why it is metagamey based on the flavour of the heritage. But I counter propose that age of a PC isn't a good concept for an 'ancestry' anyways and really the ancestry is trying to indirectly talk about how much of a lived life your PC has had (i.e., how many widely varying experiences the PC has had compared to someone of a similar or older age). If my 120 year old half elf has lived more real experiences then the 600 year old cavern elf then he should be eligible. If it was truly based solely on age then every elf when hit age 'x' should automatically gain the benefits of the ancestry.

If we can at least accept that it isn't just age but a little more indirect, then it become acceptable, yet challenging, to allow a half elf to qualify. Think of it as a 'most interesting man in the world' kind of half-elf. Alternatively there are various 'flavour' based ways to make it work. For example, what if you've got a Dorian Grey kind of situation (cursed with immortality and a really ugly painting).

Mechanically, I think the combo is obviously good. However, since 2e drastically changed multi-classing, there needs to be some ways to allow for hard character concepts to be built within the system. In 2e you are forced to use your quite limited 'class feat pool' to pay for basic class features, interesting class feats, and multiclass features/feats. Its simply too much to do that all when you need to pay an entrance dedication feat tax, a L1/L2 MC feat tax, the multiclass feat you want, and in some cases a potential exit archetype feat class (i.e., you only wanted one feat from a class). It makes sense to provide a few ways to use feats from other pools (i.e., skill, general, ancestry) to reduce some of the built in 2e feat taxes, especially for some of the dedications which may provide very little benefit (e.g., fighter to paladin).

Keep in mind that both the human and ancient elf dedication feats only apply to multiclass archetypes and not any of the other archetypes (so no prestige classing).

Ultimately I think it should be up for GM caveat and there isn't a further need to control the heritage mechanically with an arbitrary age of 'ancient'.

[nicholas storm]

when you figure that the feat gives you something you could get at 2nd level, I would say that a 19 year old character could be "ancient" enough to get enough life experience that ancient elf gives

[The Gleeful Grognard]

nicholas storm wrote:

when you figure that the feat gives you something you could get at 2nd level, I would say that a 19 year old character could be "ancient" enough to get enough life experience that ancient elf gives

As long as you wouldn't argue if the gm asked you to leave the table that is fine :p

[nicholas storm]

The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

nicholas storm wrote:

when you figure that the feat gives you something you could get at 2nd level, I would say that a 19 year old character could be "ancient" enough to get enough life experience that ancient elf gives

As long as you wouldn't argue if the gm asked you to leave the table that is fine :p

I really wouldn't want to play at a table with a gm like that so I would leave.

[siegfriedliner]

Given Ancient Elf is a heritage which means something passed on, I assume it represents something like ancestral memory or that you are from a particulary long lived line of elves.

[Martialmasters]

i wouldnt allow it. simply becacuse it makes no sense.

you want ancient elf, play an elf.

[Ravingdork]

I agree with Red Griffyn.

[VestOfHolding]

Honestly, I love the hell out of this feat, because it's perfect for my current Jekyll & Hyde build, which is a primary Barbarian with the Alchemist dedication. With this, I didn't have to awkwardly "hide" and not do anything for a level as a definitely-not-Barbarian before the party saw me rage (flavored as drinking my transformation potion with permission from the GM) for the first time. I was able to actually do Alchemist things briefly before I got to surprise the party like four or five encounters in. Plus it fits the character with being a little on the older side.

Though this feat also does terrible, terrible things to some permutation calculations I'm doing. I was happy not having to solve for multiclassing since my calculations stick to level 1, and then this has to come along, lol, but that's completely unrelated to how it makes sense for any particular character.

Also just generally +1 to Red Griffyn as well.

[Tweezer]

I gotta say, I really have a hard time wrapping my head around this. And I'd love to hear your thoughts.

TLDR; I'm confused and need help xD

On the one hand, as a GM, I'm not sure I mind the lore of an "Ancient Half-Elf" especially with siegfried's argument of it being more of an ancestral memory thing. I'd buy this. And even giving it the same restriction as ancestral longevity, won't bar half-elves from picking it up, as 100 isn't an impossible age for half-elves.

My point of contention is from a mechanics perspective. The heritage "Ancient Elf" gives the same benefit as the Human 9th level Ancestry Feat "Multitalented" (which does have a small bonus for Half-Elves, though).
You could argue that heritages are supposed to be worth more than ancestry feats, but the half-elf does pick this up with a feat, so I think that's moot.
So what actually happens by letting half-elves pick up "Ancient Elf" is that half-elves can effectively gain a 9th level ancestry feat at 1st level - by spending a 1st level feat, not a heritage.

I know you could argue that "gain a dedication" isn't better than "darkvision", "orc ferocity", "halfling luck" or "natural ambition" especially because you still can't gain any feats from the dedication before level 4, which means that you effectively just gain the ability to activate cool character concepts 1000 exp earlier.

But won't I still basically be giving my players access to a level 9 feat by spending a level 1 feat?

- I'm honestly trying to come up with a valid answer to give to my players, and as you can probably tell, this just puzzles me to great extent. And as I don't like to make rulings based on bewilderment, hopefully some of you clever folks can write some more on the subject, so I can make an even more informed decision :)

[Ascalaphus]

@Tweezer: I think it's clear by now that your ruling is going to depend at least partially on just your opinion and tastes, as there's no crystal clear RAW one way or the other. So I'll give you my personal opinion.

There is a theme in elven ancestry stuff of power they get from being really old.
In the CRB, the Ancestral Longevity and Expert Longevity feats give elves some variable skills because they've been around for over a 100 years. It's kinda like "yeah I did that in college, I've kinda forgotten how but give me a few hours with a textbook to brush up on it". It's not an ancestral memory, it's memory of stuff you did in your own lifetime, long ago.

Likewise, the description of Ancient Elf isn't about ancestral memory, it's about "yeah, thirty years ago I was thinking about becoming fighter but then I went on a gap decade and now I became a wizard instead, but I still remember a bit of basic training".

Elven Atavism (half-elf feat) requires that you meet any physiological requirements
This somewhat weirdly phrased clause is I think mostly intended to prevent people from finding a way to use "adopted" feats as a non-half-elf to get into elven heritages.

The CRB lists that half-elves often live to 150 years, so easily old enough to qualify for the CRB "I get stuff because I'm old" elf feats.

Of course you can quibble over how old "ancient" is, whether 150 qualifies as ancient compared to elven timescales.

Half-elves are already the kings of versatility, and get the human ability modifiers
These two things are my main reason for not liking allowing Ancient Elf as an atavism. Full elves have the -2 Con modifier and the +2 Dex and +2 Int modifier is fairly specialistic when you look at class qualification. Half-elves get the human +2/+2 modifiers with no downsides. They also get to pick from three pools of feats instead of only one for full elves, including all the human feats that give you a lot of flexibility.

Compared to how much versatility full elves get out of ancient elf, I think half-elves just get too much more out of it. It'd be the more obvious ancestry to choose for many many builds. If one ancestry starts becoming such an obvious choice, there's a balance problem.

---

TL;DR - I think Ancient Elf is fine for elves but together with human benefits, too good for half-elves.

[tivadar27]

I don't really think there's a balance problem here. As others have pointed out, this really just trades a 1st level racial feat for a 2nd level class feat (in the case of half-elf), and TBH, that trade-off is probably fair. People overestimate the value of MC'ing in this edition. There are certain niche things where it's worth it, but in a lot of cases, it really just isn't. If anything, the 9th level feat that allows half-elves to ignore ability requirements seems a lot more powerful to me... Suddenly that half-elf rogue doesn't need a strength score to flurry.

EDIT: Note, there's a 5th level human feat that grants darkvision. Dwarves and others just get this straight-up. There's also a 9th level Dwarven feat that effectively gives toughness, which is a 1st level general feat... Let's not place too much stock into the levels that specific racial feats were placed at.

[Puna'chong]

Whatever. I'd let a player do it. A dedication feat at level one isn't going to break anything, especially with how useful a lot of ancestry feats are

This is why I'm just letting anyone swap their ancestry feat for a dedication in my home games. And removing the age thing for half-elves. I'd rather a player play what they want than see the myriad creative stories that plug the same decrepit half-elf or the same withered elven fogey into every campaign, just so they can jump-start their idea

Why they made it exclusive to elves in the first place from a mechanical and balance perspective is beyond me. I get that elves being long-lived fits thematically, but there are plenty of reasons why any race would have the time and inclination and opportunity to start the game with a dedication feat instead of an ancestry feat

[tivadar27]

I honestly hope they just print different feats like this for every race. Halflings, for example, could have an option for Rogue Dedication without pre-reqs, Half-Orcs could get barbarians... And if you print them as heritages, you wouldn't have to worry about anyone being able to take multiple.

[Isthisnametaken?]

I think the larger issue stems from the difficulty in leveraging multi-classing as a whole. The price of admission is too high, forcing characters that want to do it into the same races/ancestry. Pazio built a system on feats that seem to be relatively interchangeable at a given level, but block off almost everyone from actually multi-classing. The reason ancient elf is considered so good is the pain of general multi-classing. Even ancient elf does not absolve you from the second class requirements, so you will still need a 14str AND 14dex to dedicate fighter or be trained in the aldori blade to be an aldori warrior.

[graystone]

If the heritage has a age requirement, it doesn't make any sense to me as a heritage. The reason, what heritage do they have before the requirement? If it's 100 years old, what do they have at 90? Also...

"You select a heritage at 1st level to reflect abilities passed down to you from your ancestors or common among those of your ancestry in the environment where you were born or grew up. You have only one heritage and can’t change it later. A heritage is not the same as a culture or ethnicity, though some cultures or ethnicities might have more or fewer members from a particular heritage."

So heritages "reflect abilities passed down to you from your ancestors or common among those of your ancestry in the environment where you were born or grew up." Neither of those mess with an age requirement: if anything, it'd be a requirement that you grew up around old elves ["common among those of your ancestry in the environment where you were born or grew up"] as opposed to YOU being old as that's not what ancestries are described as: is's not your abilities and experiences but the abilities/experiences of your ancestors or your community that make up a heritage. A heritage ANY elf can take no matter their background, ancestors, ect that is based solely on personal experience isn't IMO an actual heritage hence my thinking that it does not have a personal non-ancestor/environment based requirement like age.

[VestOfHolding]

Isthisnametaken? wrote:

I think the larger issue stems from the difficulty in leveraging multi-classing as a whole. The price of admission is too high, forcing characters that want to do it into the same races/ancestry. Pazio built a system on feats that seem to be relatively interchangeable at a given level, but block off almost everyone from actually multi-classing. The reason ancient elf is considered so good is the pain of general multi-classing. Even ancient elf does not absolve you from the second class requirements, so you will still need a 14str AND 14dex to dedicate fighter or be trained in the aldori blade to be an aldori warrior.

Multiclassing is a pain? I haven't really found that so far. Two characters in my current party are multiclassesd, and if anything we feel really good about it. Feels way better than 1E at least.

[Elorebaen]

My sense is that, this ancestry was intended for Elves, only. Not half-elves.

But, as others have said, it probably wouldn't (mechanically) hurt anything to allow a half-elf to take it, or any other race for that matter.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

Elorebaen wrote:

My sense is that, this ancestry was intended for Elves, only. Not half-elves.

But, as others have said, it probably wouldn't (mechanically) hurt anything to allow a half-elf to take it, or any other race for that matter.

That can apply to pretty much any heritage for any ancestry though. The lines in the sand are drawn differently for different people.

Although for the people who believe 90-140 is a good qualifier it is probably worth considering the following for some homebrew ancient heritages.

(reminding people that the description text is "In your long life, you’ve dabbled in many paths and many styles.")

Gnomes: 400+ years; and actively seek out new experiences

Dwarf: 350 years

Halfling: 150 years

Leshies: Don't age

As some folk have already pointed out, the sticking point is that it was made a heritage and tied to old age. It would be nice if it had been reflavoured to be about past lives, as lots of experience and old aged low level characters always feel like weird bedfellows to me.

[Squiggit]

It's definitely a weird heritage thematically. It doesn't really fit conceptually and as Gleeful pointed out there's a little dissonance between the idea of being highly experienced and learned and also being a level 1 character.

TBH though mechanically it's a really nice option. I honestly wish it was available more generically, since it makes any multiclass centric build feel a lot better if you can get going right at level 1.

[Reziburno25]

Yeah makes most sense as ancestral memory type. Since heritages are things passed down that mostly physiology. Plus for elf atavism it's first level only feat so only half elves can use so it fits in line.

Do think if lost omens get eratta to fix other small mistakes should reflavour text to make it more clearer.

Also one final point someone mentioned 9th level feat that gives multiclassing reason that stronger is you can take it even when you already in middle of another dedication, half elf doesnt even need stats to quafily for it. Human can get darkvision be requires limiting your character to requirement and spending two ancestiral feat.

[Luke Styer]

Reziburno25 wrote:

Also one final point someone mentioned 9th level feat that gives multiclassing reason that stronger is you can take it even when you already in middle of another dedication, half elf doesnt even need stats to quafily for it.

My reading of Multitalented is that you only benefit from it if you already have exactly one multiclass dedication, because it states that “You gain a 2nd-level multiclass dedication feat.” Has thay been clarified or errataed?

[xNellynelx]

Luke Styer wrote:

Reziburno25 wrote:

Also one final point someone mentioned 9th level feat that gives multiclassing reason that stronger is you can take it even when you already in middle of another dedication, half elf doesnt even need stats to quafily for it.

My reading of Multitalented is that you only benefit from it if you already have exactly one multiclass dedication, because it states that “You gain a 2nd-level multiclass dedication feat.” Has thay been clarified or errataed?

I don't think you need to already have a multiclass dedication.

It points out that "even if you normally couldn’t take another dedication feat until you take more feats from your current archetype." in case you do already have one. But no where does it state that you need to already be multiclassed. At least that is how I read it. Wanting you to already be multiclassed would likely be a prereq, rather than text within the feat.

[PossibleCabbage]

I'm inclined to allow "Ancient Elf" only for elves. If a player really wants to stack a bunch of dedications for a concept, we can figure something else out.

But to me the point of the Ancient Elf heritage is that you're really a person out of time you've lived so long, but you haven't completely wasted your time in the interim. That seems hard to justify when there are middle-aged people of other ancestries the same age as you who have been working continuously at the adventuring life for decades.

[Luke Styer]

xNellynelx wrote:

But no where does it state that you need to already be multiclassed. At least that is how I read it. Wanting you to already be multiclassed would likely be a prereq, rather than text within the feat.

Well it’s definitely not a prerequisite, but you can only gain a second multiclass dedication if you already have exactly one. So by strict reading you can rake it without a multiclass dedication, but you gain no benefit until you take one.

[Reziburno25]

Benfit is that you can take it when your only going 1 or 2 feat into dedication or want another dedication quickly.

[Puna'chong]

Yeah the time/age thing doesn't convince me. A human can be a level one fighter and morph into a level two fighter with a wizard dedication in a day of XP gain. Adventurers are supremely talented individuals, there are any number of reasons why a member of any ancestry could have a dedication at level one.

[Sapient]

It seems nonsensical to me that a character from any ancestry need be exceptionally old to have dabbled in a Class different than what they are currently pursuing. But I also think the idea of a 100 year old Elf, Dwarf, etc that is no more skilled than a 8 year old Goblin is pretty silly. The theme and mechanics of differently aging ancestries don't match up well in the genera, and it is just something I accept.

That said, I tried to build the same Half-Elf character with and without the Ancient Elf heritage. He is a thief and charlatan who is so old he often can't remember which stories he tells are true. At some point he has learned various bits of magic (some from a dedication and some from various other class or ancestry feats).

Building to level 2, the total difference was one cantrip slot in favor of Ancient Elf. A min-maxer probably could do more, but I don't think this is ever going to be unbalancing, and as a GM I wouldn't worry if a player wanted to use it.

[The-Magic-Sword]

I think the argument in this thread about what heritages are supposed to be vs. what ancient elf is, is kind of compelling, I'm tempted to basically rewrite the default lore of the user being really old to reflect the default expectation of what a heritage is.

Before we came to Pathfinder 2e, my setting was playing with the idea of elves that live more or less forever, but give up their memories and store them away in magical masks periodically in order to do it. Literally becoming different people with a continuity of consciousness. I might re-implement that idea, or something like it, and use the ancient elf heritage to model members of such a community- by wearing one of their own masks, they can recall some of their skills from a previous 'life.'

This doesn't help the RAW conversation, but its a way I could personally address it at my table.

[graystone]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

But to me the point of the Ancient Elf heritage is that you're really a person out of time you've lived so long, but you haven't completely wasted your time in the interim.

That would be reasonable for anything other than a heritage as the game has described them. It isn't something that "reflect[s] abilities passed down to you from your ancestors" or "common among those of your ancestry in the environment where you were born or grew up". Well unless you grew up and lived in an elf old folks home until you yourself grew ancient but somehow never gained a level along with all that "dabbl[ing] in many paths and many styles"... :P

Add to that this "You have only one heritage and can’t change it later", means our ancient elf with an age requirement has been walking around hundreds of years without a heritage, something that you're meant to have at 1st level start and add to that you cant change it so I have no idea how you could add a heritage so long after gaining a level.

EDIT: now as I said before, it can work as a heritage if grow up in an environment with a lot of old multiclass elves that are willing to teach the young folks the tricks of "dabbl[ing] in many paths and many styles". A heritage is about how your unique ancestry and the environment you grew up in, and requiring/needing something after you grow up is the antithesis of that. If you require an age limit for the ancient elf, you're fundamentally altering what a heritage is and means: it's no longer about your formative years or your racial abilities impact your starting abilities. At that point, it should be renamed as it's no longer about your heritage [in game or common definitions].

[The-Magic-Sword]

graystone wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

But to me the point of the Ancient Elf heritage is that you're really a person out of time you've lived so long, but you haven't completely wasted your time in the interim.

That would be reasonable for anything other than a heritage as the game has described them. It isn't something that "reflect[s] abilities passed down to you from your ancestors" or "common among those of your ancestry in the environment where you were born or grew up". Well unless you grew up and lived in an elf old folks home until you yourself grew ancient but somehow never gained a level along with all that "dabbl[ing] in many paths and many styles"... :P

Add to that this "You have only one heritage and can’t change it later", means our ancient elf with an age requirement has been walking around hundreds of years without a heritage, something that you're meant to have at 1st level start and add to that you cant change it so I have no idea how you could add a heritage so long after gaining a level.

EDIT: now as I said before, it can work as a heritage if grow up in an environment with a lot of old multiclass elves that are willing to teach the young folks the tricks of "dabbl[ing] in many paths and many styles". A heritage is about how your unique ancestry and the environment you grew up in, and requiring/needing something after you grow up is the antithesis of that. If you require an age limit for the ancient elf, you're fundamentally altering what a heritage is and means: it's no longer about your formative years or your racial abilities impact your starting abilities. At that point, it should be renamed as it's no longer about your heritage [in game or common definitions].

In fairness, the game rules aren't exactly natural laws, as we have examples of heritages changing- another elf feat called Wandering Heart heavily suggests that Elves can naturally change between the elf heritages over the course of long periods of time to adapt to their environment.

What's really interesting about this, is that it suggests we actually have a distinct category of elf that adapts to environments. One that is separated from Whisper/Seer/Ancient Elves, who don't.