Update: 200 reviews of PF2 Core rulebook @ Amazon in a bit over 5 months.
To give some more perspective: PF1 CRB accumulated 652 reviews in over 10 years.
To be fair, Amazon wasn’t quite what it was when PF1 launches and initial reviews are usually the spike these days for launch material with prominent reviewers.
But nonetheless, those are impressive numbers.
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Update: 200 reviews of PF2 Core rulebook @ Amazon in a bit over 5 months.
To give some more perspective: PF1 CRB accumulated 652 reviews in over 10 years.
Correction: There are 200 ratings listed, but only 143 reviews. Right now, the ratings are:
68% 5 stars,13% 4 stars,
7% 3 stars,
5% 2 stars,
8% 1 star,
for a combined total rating of 4.3 stars out of 5.
By contrast, Pathfinder 1e has 652 ratings and 643 reviews. Right now, they are:
80% 5 stars
13% 4 stars
4% 3 stars
1% 2 stars
2% 1 star
for a combined total of 4.7 stars out of 5.
That's a pretty big difference. The number of people that are unhappy with the game and gave 1 and 2 stars are over 4 times as high as in first edition! Four times as many unhappy people is never a good thing.
By further comparison, let's look at the D&D 4th edition core books. They only have 1 copy of the 4e Player's Handbook listed on Amazon from some independent seller, and there are no reviews for it, so let's look at the gift set of all 3 core books for 4e which you can still buy on Amazon for $29 total for all 3 books. It has a total 295 rating and 294 reviews at:
46% at 5 stars
17% at 4 stars
12% at 3 stars
8% at 2 stars
16% at 1 star
for a combined total of 3.7 stars out of 5.
True, PF2e isn't as low as 4th edition is, but lets see how D&D 5th edition's Players Handbook is doing. 3,874 ratings and 3,662 reviews:
80% at 5 stars
11% at 4 stars
5% at 2 stars
2% at 1 star
for a combined total of 4.6 stars out of 5.
Looking at all those numbers, it seems that Pathfinder 1e actually is more loved (higher rating) than D&D 5e is now! It may not have had quite as many sales because D&D is the big elephant in the room, but dropping it may have been a mistake.
From personal experience, I can say that Pathfinder 1e was and still is the game of choice in my group that has been together for many years. We never switched to 5e when it came out, just kept playing Pathfinder 1e. While I and several other members of the group bought PF2e, not one of them is interested in even trying it for a single game. I would definitely be willing to try it, but I'd want a big list of house rule changes is we ever ran a campaign. And it definitely seems like I'm not the only person that feels that way.
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Launch statistics compared to overall are more likely to skew negative though, as generally adoptions that come after are either after commercial success or word of mouth and are likely to be people genuinely interested in trying the system as opposed to people buying the latest book.
Especially considering there were a lot of upset PF1 players about the support moving to the new edition and not continuing.
I think it’s still safe to call this edition highly favorable.
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Uh... by your numbers, the number of 1-star reviews is actually higher in the PF1 rulebook than on PF2’s.
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Yeah, Amazon has highly upvoted one star reviews than only complain about there being a page in the CRB that tells you not to rape anyone. There was a lot of early vitriol about the existence of a new addition and any change. Reviews coming in now actually review the product and aren't just there to spit their anti hype.
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Uh... by your numbers, the number of 1-star reviews is actually higher in the PF1 rulebook than on PF2’s.What are you talking about? PF1e's 1 star reviews are 2%, while PF2e's 1 star reviews are 8%. Four times higher.
On a larger sample. It’s 16 vs 13. Not larger, but certainly not 4* higher for PF2, either.
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Yeah, Amazon has highly upvoted one star reviews than only complain about there being a page in the CRB that tells you not to rape anyone.
That reminds me of a character in Illuminatus!. There's a guy (Markov Chaney) who goes around writing signs encouraging good behavior, but so far below standard behavior that the readers would invariably assume that the place was of lower class than they thought. Signs like "No spitting" in an upscale bar and such. I can only imagine the response you'd get putting up a "No Raping" sign in a bar.
I doubt it's enough to tank the product obviously, but it'd be funny if it did.
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Yeah, Amazon has highly upvoted one star reviews than only complain about there being a page in the CRB that tells you not to rape anyone.That reminds me of a character in Illuminatus!. There's a guy (Markov Chaney) who goes around writing signs encouraging good behavior, but so far below standard behavior that the readers would invariably assume that the place was of lower class than they thought. Signs like "No spitting" in an upscale bar and such. I can only imagine the response you'd get putting up a "No Raping" sign in a bar.
I doubt it's enough to tank the product obviously, but it'd be funny if it did.
Good old Markov Chaney. But I think you're thinking of Schrödinger's Cat, not Illuminatus!
Great books both :)
I probably am, 20 years does a number on the memory.
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On a larger sample. It’s 16 vs 13. Not larger, but certainly not 4* higher for PF2, either.Uh... by your numbers, the number of 1-star reviews is actually higher in the PF1 rulebook than on PF2’s.What are you talking about? PF1e's 1 star reviews are 2%, while PF2e's 1 star reviews are 8%. Four times higher.
maaaaaaths.
You gotta pick if you want relative or absolute comparisons. In relative comparisons, PF2 is burning ground, as all reviews are recent. In absolute comparisons, PF1 has more bad reviews (but also more good reviews, as it's been there longer).
Basic point stands - PF1 isn't selling much anymore, hence the new edition. If it can't attract new customers, it's over... and we only have ourselves to blame, I'm afraid. Getting newbies to the table is our job.
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I was actually following the Amazon reviews thingy closely. Just shortly after launch, the average rating of PF2 CRB with 50 reviews was 3.8 - now it's 4.3. Did the game improve in quality so dramatically over 5 months? Did the errata turn things upside down? Well, my theory is that once all the "PAIZO KICKED MY PUPPY!" and "GET YOUR POLITICS OUT OF MY PRISTINE WHITE THROAT" people vented out their frustration at PF2's existence with a properly done 1-star review, the actual "oh, that's what I think about the game" ratings started outweighing. I'm curious how things will look in 10 years, I'll be sure to come back to this thread :)
(Likely won't happen as Paizo will finally do the right thing and axe the forums.)
Which is why I'm looking only at the number of reviews. PF1 didn't have to face the "you betrayed me, you promised there will never be another edition" people or the "politics don't belong in my game of pretending to be an elf" folks.
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(Likely won't happen as Paizo will finally do the right thing and axe the forums.)
*gasp*
Wash your mouth out!
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I've done extensive research* and for some reason all the people who don't like PF2 and are vocal enough to post about it are surrounded by other people who all hate it, whereas all the people who love it and wish to proselytize are equally blessed with the good fortune to have lots of people confirming their opinions.
Who'd have guessed? People with very strong opinions report that lots of people agree with them.
Translation: We won't know for at least a year and probably two. The information we have now is pretty much valueless.
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I was actually following the Amazon reviews thingy closely. Just shortly after launch, the average rating of PF2 CRB with 50 reviews was 3.8 - now it's 4.3. Did the game improve in quality so dramatically over 5 months? Did the errata turn things upside down? Well, my theory is that once all the "PAIZO KICKED MY PUPPY!" and "GET YOUR POLITICS OUT OF MY PRISTINE WHITE THROAT" people vented out their frustration at PF2's existence with a properly done 1-star review, the actual "oh, that's what I think about the game" ratings started outweighing. I'm curious how things will look in 10 years, I'll be sure to come back to this thread :)
(Likely won't happen as Paizo will finally do the right thing and axe the forums.)
Which is why I'm looking only at the number of reviews. PF1 didn't have to face the "you betrayed me, you promised there will never be another edition" people or the "politics don't belong in my game of pretending to be an elf" folks.
It's a little hypocritical to say they should axe the forums but then participate in them as well. I feel it was a joke however, Or your saying that it would be in Paizo's best interest and not your own which I think it what you were really saying.... Hmm maybe in some ways. I don't know I think despite all the negativity some good stuff does come out of the forum that improves the game. Plus I appreciate the rules forums for helping me figure out the odd rule here and their. The forum also has given me some inspiration for my games Plus general is just fun to talk to people in. Also really it's got to be one of the least antagonistic forums as far as internet forums go really. In my experience anyways.
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It's a little hypocritical to say they should axe the forums but then participate in them as well. I feel it was a joke however, Or your saying that it would be in Paizo's best interest and not your own which I think it what you were really saying.... Hmm maybe in some ways. I don't know I think despite all the negativity some good stuff does come out of the forum that improves the game. Plus I appreciate the rules forums for helping me figure out the odd rule here and their. The forum also has given me some inspiration for my games Plus general is just fun to talk to people in. Also really it's got to be one of the least antagonistic forums as far as internet forums go really. In my experience anyways.I was actually following the Amazon reviews thingy closely. Just shortly after launch, the average rating of PF2 CRB with 50 reviews was 3.8 - now it's 4.3. Did the game improve in quality so dramatically over 5 months? Did the errata turn things upside down? Well, my theory is that once all the "PAIZO KICKED MY PUPPY!" and "GET YOUR POLITICS OUT OF MY PRISTINE WHITE THROAT" people vented out their frustration at PF2's existence with a properly done 1-star review, the actual "oh, that's what I think about the game" ratings started outweighing. I'm curious how things will look in 10 years, I'll be sure to come back to this thread :)
(Likely won't happen as Paizo will finally do the right thing and axe the forums.)
Which is why I'm looking only at the number of reviews. PF1 didn't have to face the "you betrayed me, you promised there will never be another edition" people or the "politics don't belong in my game of pretending to be an elf" folks.
(Psst - don't take Gorbacz seriously, he's a literal bag of sarcasm)
...Having said that, I am now going to contradict myself by saying I think his analysis of the where and when of negative reviews is likely pretty accurate.
Especially because while I have seen a lot of people coming from PF1 and hating PF2, I don't know that I have seen a single person who hasn't played PF1 dislike PF2; basically all of the "came from 5e" posts I have seen have been positive, for example.
Since people who were active PF1 players have most likely already tried PF2 and reviewed it if they are going to, it's likely the people who never played PF1 that are going to be shaping the reviews from here out.
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There is always another bridge under which to lurk?
...
I believe that Game Design Philosophy is evolving, and that PF2 is evidence of that. I also believe that this process isn't automatic per se, otherwise, every single game would get better with each new iteration, which isn't always true.
That said, it is often hard for folks to "let it go" and go "into the unknown"...
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Well, Rainzax, you certainly managed to "show yourself" with those references. Now it's time to do "the next right thing" before this thread gets "lost in the woods". ;)
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It's a little hypocritical to say they should axe the forums but then participate in them as well. I feel it was a joke however, Or your saying that it would be in Paizo's best interest and not your own which I think it what you were really saying.... Hmm maybe in some ways. I don't know I think despite all the negativity some good stuff does come out of the forum that improves the game. Plus I appreciate the rules forums for helping me figure out the odd rule here and their. The forum also has given me some inspiration for my games Plus general is just fun to talk to people in. Also really it's got to be one of the least antagonistic forums as far as internet forums go really. In my experience anyways.I was actually following the Amazon reviews thingy closely. Just shortly after launch, the average rating of PF2 CRB with 50 reviews was 3.8 - now it's 4.3. Did the game improve in quality so dramatically over 5 months? Did the errata turn things upside down? Well, my theory is that once all the "PAIZO KICKED MY PUPPY!" and "GET YOUR POLITICS OUT OF MY PRISTINE WHITE THROAT" people vented out their frustration at PF2's existence with a properly done 1-star review, the actual "oh, that's what I think about the game" ratings started outweighing. I'm curious how things will look in 10 years, I'll be sure to come back to this thread :)
(Likely won't happen as Paizo will finally do the right thing and axe the forums.)
Which is why I'm looking only at the number of reviews. PF1 didn't have to face the "you betrayed me, you promised there will never be another edition" people or the "politics don't belong in my game of pretending to be an elf" folks.
(Psst - don't take Gorbacz seriously, he's a literal bag of sarcasm)
...Having said that, I am now going to contradict myself by saying I think his analysis of the where and when of negative reviews is likely pretty accurate.
Especially because while I have seen a lot of people coming from PF1 and...
I assumed it was sarcasm but I wanted to just use it as an excuse to say how much I appreciate the Paizo forums.
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Let's be real, user reviews aren't really a good metric from sites like amazon... and we only have to look at the titles of the 1star reviews to start seeing that.
- Paizo is just another politically correct driven machine
- PC culture has invaded gaming (non verified)
- PC Culture (non verified)
- If it aint broke (non verified, didn't want a new edition anyway)
- Perv-finder - Nuff said. (non verified)
- Binding review only. Not content (not about the game)
- Worst version ever (non verified, focused on "pc culture" again)
- Not fun/Politics included. (non verified, pc again)
- Lacks flexibility for characters; determining exp is a nightmare (non verified, says that it can take an hour to determine how much exp a monster gives... meaning... reallyyyyyy dumb person)
- Two Books Damaged on Delivery (postal delivery issues)
- Printed wrong (printing issue)
Now don't get me wrong, this is only 11 out of 17 1* reviews... But 65% of the 1* reviews being essentially garbage and mostly unrelated to the game and thoughts about the game is telling.
Let's be real, user reviews aren't really a good metric from sites like amazon... and we only have to look at the titles of the 1star reviews to start seeing that.
- Paizo is just another politically correct driven machine
- PC culture has invaded gaming (non verified)
- PC Culture (non verified)
- If it aint broke (non verified, didn't want a new edition anyway)
- Perv-finder - Nuff said. (non verified)
- Binding review only. Not content (not about the game)
- Worst version ever (non verified, focused on "pc culture" again)
- Not fun/Politics included. (non verified, pc again)
- Lacks flexibility for characters; determining exp is a nightmare (non verified, says that it can take an hour to determine how much exp a monster gives... meaning... reallyyyyyy dumb person)
- Two Books Damaged on Delivery (postal delivery issues)
- Printed wrong (printing issue)Now don't get me wrong, this is only 11 out of 17 1* reviews... But 65% of the 1* reviews being essentially garbage and mostly unrelated to the game and thoughts about the game is telling.
Very much a Last Jedi situation it seems (but that is a potential derail)
But a reflection of change of society and internet use since 1E. Do not truly comparing applies with applesAlso the detailed post by a prior poster about the review statistics seemed to fundamentally misunderstand data analysis. And user reviews and their spread do not really address my additional question directly. I suppose lots of low reviews may suggest people don’t switch but it is reaching
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Let's be real, user reviews aren't really a good metric from sites like amazon... and we only have to look at the titles of the 1star reviews to start seeing that.
- Paizo is just another politically correct driven machine
- PC culture has invaded gaming (non verified)
- PC Culture (non verified)
- If it aint broke (non verified, didn't want a new edition anyway)
- Perv-finder - Nuff said. (non verified)
- Binding review only. Not content (not about the game)
- Worst version ever (non verified, focused on "pc culture" again)
- Not fun/Politics included. (non verified, pc again)
- Lacks flexibility for characters; determining exp is a nightmare (non verified, says that it can take an hour to determine how much exp a monster gives... meaning... reallyyyyyy dumb person)
- Two Books Damaged on Delivery (postal delivery issues)
- Printed wrong (printing issue)Now don't get me wrong, this is only 11 out of 17 1* reviews... But 65% of the 1* reviews being essentially garbage and mostly unrelated to the game and thoughts about the game is telling.
I haven't read all these actual reviews, though I have looked at some of the reviews on Amazon. But just because the titles don't sound like an in-depth discussion of the game and its mechanics itself, most have at least a kernel of truth to them.
- I think it's objectively true that Paizo has become much more political and openly PC with this edition. If you happen to agree with those politics, that seems like a good change, or at least doesn't bother you. If you disagree with those politics, it stands out like a sore thumb. Whether it is enough to actually turn you off from the entire game depends upon the person. You can always make changes for your own campaign setting however you want.
-PC culture is tied in with the above reply as well. I'm a California native, and I even lived in the SF bay area for several years. I'm used to being surrounded by PC culture. Maybe some of these reviewers are from more conservative parts of the country, or from other countries entirely, and haven't had as much experience with PC culture at the gaming table. I feel that it really isn't needed for a game about wizards, dwarves, and dragons. A simple non-political "Be considerate of other players' feelings. Don't be a jerk or make people feel bad, it's a game that's meant to be fun for everyone" should suffice.
-"If it ain't broke don't fix it" is clearly something I don't agree with, especially when you are creating a new edition. Now is the time to fix the problems you always had with the 1e rulers, which had to remain compatible with D&D 3.5. You don't want to make so many changes that it alienates your current customers though.
-Binding and printing issues are not directly related to the game itself, but I have had my own problems with the corebook's cover splitting. My PF1e book has lasted 10 years and travels to my game weekly in my backpack and has had fewer cover problems than my 2e corebook has had just sitting on my desktop for since August. The cover is splitting like an overcooked hotdog in several places. Whatever process or company they got to for the 2e printing seems to be different (and IMO worse) than their previous printers.
-Lacks flexibility for characters seems like a total fallacy, there is more flexibility and choices than ever before, if you have enough feats you need to buy it all.
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- I think it's objectively true that Paizo has become much more political and openly PC with this edition. If you happen to agree with those politics, that seems like a good change, or at least doesn't bother you. If you disagree with those politics, it stands out like a sore thumb. Whether it is enough to actually turn you off from the entire game depends upon the person. You can always make changes for your own campaign setting however you want.
-PC culture is tied in with the above reply as well. I'm a California native, and I even lived in the SF bay area for several years. I'm used to being surrounded by PC culture. Maybe some of these reviewers are from more conservative parts of the country, or from other countries entirely, and haven't had as much experience with PC culture at the gaming table. I feel that it really isn't needed for a game about wizards, dwarves, and dragons. A simple non-political "Be considerate of other players' feelings. Don't be a jerk or make people feel bad, it's a game that's meant to be fun for everyone" should suffice.
I think it's kind of inevitable. Gaming has come out of the basements and gone mainstream. There's more of a spotlight on it, so anything unsavory that previously stayed below the radar is now much more visible.
Paizo's had some bruising moments with people behaving badly at conventions, I can see how they want distance themselves from that.
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Amazon has this weird customer culture where people will 1-star books because:
- the binding fell apart
- the book arrived damaged
- the teleporting drone that delivered the book wasn't courteous enough
In case of the latter two, people apparently think that they're taking a stab at Amazon, but actually they only hurt the publisher/author, because at this point Amazon is so far down the road towards global dominance that it doesn't anymore care if Karen's cookbook got delivered in a bent box.
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- I think it's objectively true that Paizo has become much more political and openly PC with this edition. If you happen to agree with those politics, that seems like a good change, or at least doesn't bother you. If you disagree with those politics, it stands out like a sore thumb. Whether it is enough to actually turn you off from the entire game depends upon the person. You can always make changes for your own campaign setting however you want.
-PC culture is tied in with the above reply as well. I'm a California native, and I even lived in the SF bay area for several years. I'm used to being surrounded by PC culture. Maybe some of these reviewers are from more conservative parts of the country, or from other countries entirely, and haven't had as much experience with PC culture at the gaming table. I feel that it really isn't needed for a game about wizards, dwarves, and dragons. A simple non-political "Be considerate of other players' feelings. Don't be a jerk or make people feel bad, it's a game that's meant to be fun for everyone" should suffice.
I think it's kind of inevitable. Gaming has come out of the basements and gone mainstream. There's more of a spotlight on it, so anything unsavory that previously stayed below the radar is now much more visible.
Paizo's had some bruising moments with people behaving badly at conventions, I can see how they want distance themselves from that.
It's funny, because from outside the US, it doesn't look like PC, but like an editorial choice, as our PC is clearly not the US PC.
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Now either I haven’t read the core book closely enough or I am one of those people who immersed in pc culture
Are these reviews literally in response to the one paragraph about gender identity ? (One of my players didn’t like that and it stuck out to him). But is that all there is about enforcing PC views?
I think it's that and the GM advice part about having some sort of red card for when people are uncomfortable about certain topics.
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Also I wouldn't assume that everyone that made a review read it. Some of them probably just heard it mentioned somewhere and decided to flame.
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Ya know, I know someone who got bored of 5e and decided to switch to 4e :D
Anyway, I'm kind confused by all "Gasp, this book has one or two paragraphs about being respectful to other people" talk mostly because lot of it comes in form of "Gasp Paizo has changed" when Paizo has been pro inclusiveness and diversity and respect for long time by now.
I'm someone who is currently running 1e campaigns, but I'm pretty sure pretty much all doomsaying about 2e is either really competitive 5e fans or PF 1e fans who hope that if they stay it often enough that Paizo will change their mind and bring 1e back.
In local PFS at least 2e has been received overall really well. But then again, my experience of majority of PFS 1e players(even in home campaigns) is "Yeah this system is really broken, but builds are fun"
BTW, another version of "Gasp, inclusiveness!" I'm confused about is "This is why D&D 5e and Wizards is better!"...When Wizards has also similar paragraph in 5e book and taken steps to be more inclusive
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It's funny, because from outside the US, it doesn't look like PC, but like an editorial choice, as our PC is clearly not the US PC.- I think it's objectively true that Paizo has become much more political and openly PC with this edition. If you happen to agree with those politics, that seems like a good change, or at least doesn't bother you. If you disagree with those politics, it stands out like a sore thumb. Whether it is enough to actually turn you off from the entire game depends upon the person. You can always make changes for your own campaign setting however you want.
-PC culture is tied in with the above reply as well. I'm a California native, and I even lived in the SF bay area for several years. I'm used to being surrounded by PC culture. Maybe some of these reviewers are from more conservative parts of the country, or from other countries entirely, and haven't had as much experience with PC culture at the gaming table. I feel that it really isn't needed for a game about wizards, dwarves, and dragons. A simple non-political "Be considerate of other players' feelings. Don't be a jerk or make people feel bad, it's a game that's meant to be fun for everyone" should suffice.
I think it's kind of inevitable. Gaming has come out of the basements and gone mainstream. There's more of a spotlight on it, so anything unsavory that previously stayed below the radar is now much more visible.
Paizo's had some bruising moments with people behaving badly at conventions, I can see how they want distance themselves from that.
I am so sick and tired of Americas PC clash and counter clash being so damn loud.
I don't think America, as a whole, realizes just how "conservative" its social mores are compared to most places. Sure they are far from the worst, but the vocal and angry backlash towards anything deemed "progressive" is draining.
Just be nice to each other and respect others personal choices. It isn't hard.
What do people know about the success / popularity of 2E so far?
I can only convey what I can see. Two games:
Game 1 was running PF1. Took part in the PF2 playtest. Initially went to PF2, but we didn't care for it. Now trying 5e.
Game 2 was running PF1, saw PF2 wasn't compatible and stayed with PF1.
The last I checked, there's no organized play for PF2 at the local game store.
We're not a huge city: ~20,000 permanent residents and ~20,000 university students. There are all sorts of games that take place in the dorms and I wouldn't be surprised if there's some PF2 in there.
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I am so sick and tired of Americas PC clash and counter clash being so damn loud.
I don't think America, as a whole, realizes just how "conservative" its social mores are compared to most places. Sure they are far from the worst, but the vocal and angry backlash towards anything deemed "progressive" is draining.
Just be nice to each other and respect others personal choices. It isn't hard.
I've lived in 3 different countries, and the notion of "my country, as a whole" only exists in one of them. I realized how something as simple as having the same language accross a whole country can be a nightmare.
I don't know the US much, as I'm on the other side of the Atlantic, but I have a strong feeling that "America, as a whole" doesn't exist. Seeing, for example, how your presidents can be so different between one and another makes me think you have extremely different cultures spread accross the country. So, it's normal for me to have culture clashes in such a big and different country.|
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I am so sick and tired of Americas PC clash and counter clash being so damn loud.
I don't think America, as a whole, realizes just how "conservative" its social mores are compared to most places. Sure they are far from the worst, but the vocal and angry backlash towards anything deemed "progressive" is draining.
Just be nice to each other and respect others personal choices. It isn't hard.
I've lived in 3 different countries, and the notion of "my country, as a whole" only exists in one of them. I realized how something as simple as having the same language accross a whole country can be a nightmare.
I don't know the US much, as I'm on the other side of the Atlantic, but I have a strong feeling that "America, as a whole" doesn't exist. Seeing, for example, how your presidents can be so different between one and another makes me think you have extremely different cultures spread accross the country. So, it's normal for me to have culture clashes in such a big and different country.
I'm not American, but I have visited America twice and I can say that there is culture clash inside America in different states <_< Which makes sense since each of states is large enough to be its own country
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Yup, there's a hint in the name of the country: The United States of America.
We're a big country. Overlay the lower 48 states on Europe with Seattle where London is and San Diego would be in Algeria. Boston would be in Kazakhstan. Miami would be in Iraq. Just about every climate in the world can be found within our borders. Expecting 320+ million people in those conditions to be think identically is folly.
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I haven't read all these actual reviews, though I have looked at some of the reviews on Amazon. But just because the titles don't sound like an in-depth discussion of the game and its mechanics itself, most have at least a kernel of truth to them.
The content of the reviews don't contain anything about the game mechanics outside of maybe 2... i did read more than just the titles before posting and judging.
And as for PC culture... it is less than 2 pages total out of a 600 page book, people need to grow the hell up when one of the common complaints was that book says "remember to check where your players boundaries are".
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Yeah I am pretty comfortable disregarding such reviews myself.
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I have a few friends who got pretty riled up about the PC stuff, not because it was included in a paragraph in the rules so much, but because they believed that it was adversely affecting the stories Paizo was telling through their adventure paths.
Second Edition as a whole though is being pretty well received in the circles I frequent, which is impressive as nearly everyone here started with a "never gonna'" switch attitude.
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Is the game really floundering already? Or is it too early to tell?
It is definitively too early to tell.
We have very few things that could be considerd a valid metric of success at this point. Parsing Amazon reviews and ratings is an interesting snapshot of the vocal responses at launch, but it's hardly something scientific.
The ICv2 sales figures that would include PF2's launch titles won't likely be published until February or March, and even sales figures at launch don't tell the whole story of a game's success. 5e was not nearly as successful at launch as it is today.
This is just my two coppers about fandom in general, but we as fans need to stop armchair quarterbacking industries in which we do not work. It's not new obviously, but with the internet we like to use financial success as a cudgel to win an argument that isn't about money but about preference.
We can have the financial success argument between D&D and PF1 and PF2 until the cows come home, but our view of that has nothing to do with Paizo's success metric for PF2 or their bottom line.
Throwing around anecdotal data about the number of forum posts we've seen about one game vs the other, arguing about which stars are valid and which ones aren't - that's all just fueling the fire of a kind of tribalism that isn't terribly productive.
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It would have been nice if PF2 led with a gang-busters hit AP like Rise of the Runelords, or Crimson Throne. That doesn't seem to be the case - reviews and actual play activity of Age of Ashes are lukewarm. Paizo need one of the next two APs to be a popular hit - the kind of campaign that generates buzz beyond core Pathfinder supporters.
Actually, the campaign that led off the Pathfinder RPG (1e) was Council of Thieves. And that campaign was received with a lukewarm response as well. The second for the rule set was Kingmaker, so if Extinction Curse takes off like gangbusters, we would have a similar scenario, which wouldn't be bad for Paizo at all.
Was 2/3 done with Strange Aeons. Our GM switched it over. I started running Plaguestone. And I'm starting Age of Ashes after that. Our group really enjoys P2e. Our players all bought CRBs. A couple of players bought campaign books.
As far as "needing" more content.. I mean, we're all still exploring CRB options, so no one is missing APG or anything yet. Jason & co. put out the conversion rules early for free online.
So.. I can't speak for the country or the world, but in my circles in Tulsa, everyone is pretty excited about it.
I have a few friends who got pretty riled up about the PC stuff, not because it was included in a paragraph in the rules so much, but because they believed that it was adversely affecting the stories Paizo was telling through their adventure paths.
I'd heard this as well, but I'm not a module player, so I wasn't sure if that was true or made sense. I know they changed the names of some demons or minor deities or something, but aside from that I haven't seen anything. Was there a huge psychological-horror element that got scrubbed or something?
My not being a module player also probably accounts for why I don't know adopters of PF2, as only one of the groups I mentioned ever plays modules. If Paizo is leaning into their most lucrative patrons, then PF2 being more appealing to module players and runners is probably intentional and working as intended.
Dirtypool is right though, the armchair quarterbacking isn't useful and I'll do my best to step back from it.
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What do people know about the success / popularity of 2E so far?
For context the Glass Cannon Podcast just released a new Patreon show today using 2E rules. There are a couple of very vocal 2E critics on their reddit suggesting the 2E has not been picked up or switched to in gaming circles
They cited warhorn as an example but when I looked the 1E and 2E numbers were rather close. Which given how little adventure content there is for 2E is something worth commenting on
There were also at least two people claiming (one of them the same as above ) that because the Pathfinder subreddit has far more 1E activity it follows that 2E isn’t popular. They chose to ignore or downplay the dedicated sub for 2E
So what have others seen?
Is the game really floundering already? Or is it too early to tell?
Or is this just a few vocal people who are upset about 1E being dropped and are shouting the loudest about it?From my perspective there not being much of a switch yet isn’t necessarily indicative of a problem with the game. I personally haven’t switched because I am mid 1E AP so realistically can’t
I am just intrigued
One of the things I'd love to see is people asking their favorite media outlets to give Pathfinder Second Edition a chance. As a lot of folks base their future plans off what their audience and others are wanting. That'd help push the envelope a little bit.
Also, I'm glad to hear a lot of you enjoying PF2E so far! It has been warming our hearts internally.