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And this just feels a little hyperbolic. RPGs rarely get mass success in their first 6 months to a year, as people have limited time and need to wrap up existing campaigns.
I remember going to a con during the fall of the year 5E was released and expecting a lot of people trying the new edition. PFS occupied the hotel's largest ballroom, while D&D had maybe 4 small conference rooms.
I just... looked at the page that had feats and picked ones that seemed good for the character I was trying to build.
I just... looked at the page that had feats and picked ones that seemed good for the character I was trying to build.
So did I (although there was a fair bit of page flipping. I didn’t find a very useful all-in-one-page place to browse) - and I ended up with feats that granted actions that couldn’t be used in the same round. Or found some later that made more sense with the concept.
I just don’t see how you can build a PC in 5 minutes. In 5E it’s fast because there’s minimal customisation beyond sub race and class specialisation (generally not until third level). Even then, I’d struggle to get it done in five minutes.
Choices take time.
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So I saw this on twitter. Icv2 ranking for 2019.
Seems like paizo doing just fine? Weird list though. Don't see the 5e phb there.
No idea how well respected this is but seems like it's based on sell in to comic stores.
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So I saw this on twitter. Icv2 ranking for 2019.
Seems like paizo doing just fine? Weird list though. Don't see the 5e phb there.
No idea how well respected this is but seems like it's based on sell in to comic stores.
The D&D PHB is 6 years old , so it's not surprising that it wouldn't hit that list. icv2 measures sales on a quarterly basis, not across the product's lifespan. It's still entirely possible (and very likely at this point in time) that the 5E PHB has sold more copies across its lifetime than the products in that list, it just didn't sell more copies to game stores during that quarter. Wizards also sells directly to Amazon, and given that Amazon was able to massively discount product beyond what game stores could before the distributor was cut out, it's entirely possible that icv2 isn't capable of giving any kind of accurate read on 5E's sales numbers since it's only looking at copies ordered by retailers.
I still have to choose gear and such, and calculate my derived stats, but I'm like 90% done with the mechanics. This took me about 15 minutes, including typing.
Cheers. 15 minutes to not quite be complete seems a much more achievable estimate. I took about 45 mins to an hour I think (and made a couple of nonsensical choices I had to go back and change later). I could imagine getting it down to thirty (including writing everything out by hand) but the speed and ease some people report just baffles me.
I mean, I guess if you’ve already got a character in mind and know all the feats well, maybe it’s literally just a matter of typing them up. I’m picturing a “blank slate” sort of thing. (My sketch was “agile, lightly armoured fighter”)
The D&D PHB is 6 years old , so it's not surprising that it wouldn't hit that list. icv2 measures sales on a quarterly basis, not across the product's lifespan. It's still entirely possible (and very likely at this point in time) that the 5E PHB has sold more copies across its lifetime than the products in that list, it just didn't sell more copies to game stores during that quarter. Wizards also sells directly to Amazon, and given that Amazon was able to massively discount product beyond what game stores could before the distributor was cut out, it's entirely possible that icv2 isn't capable of giving any kind of accurate read on 5E's sales numbers since it's only looking at copies ordered by retailers.So I saw this on twitter. Icv2 ranking for 2019.
Seems like paizo doing just fine? Weird list though. Don't see the 5e phb there.
No idea how well respected this is but seems like it's based on sell in to comic stores.
That link isn’t to a usual icv2 report, it’s published on the ICv2 page but it’s a listing from diamond distributor of their bestselling games in 2019.
So it’s not quarterly it’s annual, but it’s also not an estimate of the overall market (which ICv2 usually try to provide) but just a listing from one, specific distribution channel.
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That link isn’t to a usual icv2 report, it’s to a listing from diamond distributor of their bestselling games in 2019.So it’s not quarterly it’s annual, but it’s also not an estimate of the overall market (which ICv2 usually try to provide) but just a listing from one, specific distribution channel.
Ah, so less so to the first part of my statement, but "Wizards also sells directly to Amazon, and given that Amazon was able to massively discount product beyond what game stores could before the distributor was cut out, it's entirely possible that icv2 isn't capable of giving any kind of accurate read on 5E's sales numbers since it's only looking at copies ordered by retailers" still applies.
In fact, I think the most you can gain from that report given its dearth of WotC products in general, is that WOtC probably does a lot more of its distribution through Amazon than Diamond.
So I saw this on twitter. Icv2 ranking for 2019.
Seems like paizo doing just fine? Weird list though. Don't see the 5e phb there.
No idea how well respected this is but seems like it's based on sell in to comic stores.
What I learned from that is that diamond distributors must be heavily invested in Paizo continuing to thrive!
Paizo products dominate the big sellers, plus there’s pretty extraordinary depth.
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That link isn’t to a usual icv2 report, it’s to a listing from diamond distributor of their bestselling games in 2019.So it’s not quarterly it’s annual, but it’s also not an estimate of the overall market (which ICv2 usually try to provide) but just a listing from one, specific distribution channel.
Ah, so less so to the first part of my statement, but "Wizards also sells directly to Amazon, and given that Amazon was able to massively discount product beyond what game stores could before the distributor was cut out, it's entirely possible that icv2 isn't capable of giving any kind of accurate read on 5E's sales numbers since it's only looking at copies ordered by retailers" still applies.
In fact, I think the most you can gain from that report given its dearth of WotC products in general, is that WOtC probably does a lot more of its distribution through Amazon than Diamond.
Yeah, the link doesn’t have anything to do with WotC really (pretty sure they have their own distribution network via M:tG). I was surprised to see anything there from them. It certainly doesn’t purport to be offering any comment on relative success of different games.
The Green Ronin Critical Role book for 5E did very well. (It sold more copies than the PF2 bestiary).
I just thought I’d mention to people who saw a link to ICv2 that it wasn’t what people usually link to.
I don’t know how you folks are quickly able to know all the feats that are available and which ones you want. That’s where my time went. (Even then, I ended up creating a fighter whose feats didn’t synergise well and clashed. I had to adjust once I realised what the keywords actually meant in play).
So I know this is an Extinction Curse character, so they work in a circus. I know I want to play a gnome because I like gnomes and I want to be a performer, so naturally I'm between clown and aerialist for the heritage.
I read the LOCG and something that stuck with me is the concept of "Glimmer Gnomes" who can spontaneously teleport, which is neat. Specifically the 9th level feat "Fortuitous Shift" which makes "teleporting out of danger" reliable (50% chance) and low risk (you're no longer dazzled.) So I want to take the prerequisite for that. So I think "what class does this work well with" because it costs a reaction and I remember "monks don't have a built-in defensive reaction, and are liable to be in danger" so those things work well.
Since I'm playing a monk, aerialist makes more sense than clown so I can write that down, plus cat fall is a good feat. Since I'm a dextrous circus performer the ability to spontaneously change my hair and skin color seems like a useful thing to have so I can jot down "chameleon gnome."
So I know from experience that monks at level 1 generally take monastic weapons (if they're weapon monks), a stance (if they're not), or a ki power. The ki power can wait, so I want a stance. Since I'm more dextrous than strong I want one with the finesse trait, and being someone who climbs, jumps, swings, and tumbles professionally the feline one works better than the canine one. Plus, who ever saw a wolf in the circus?
The important thing is that other than heritage, class,and ancestry all of these things can be retrained. So as long as I know I want to play a gnome monk who can change color (and of course I am), I'm good to go. I find that most of the level 1 choices are sufficiently informed by the concept in characters I've built that they're pretty quick. Like if I know I'm playing a crossbow ranger, I know my level 1 feat is not going to be hunted shot or twin takedown, so it's just between crossbow ace, animal companion, or monster hunter. Choosing between three things is pretty quick.
If you want to make this fast, all you really need is a passing familiarity with the level 1 class and ancestry options.
I know it’s easy and straightforward. But I don’t know about quick.
It’s no big deal - nobody has to defend how long they take. I was just reporting my time, not challenging anyone else. (Maybe “I don’t know how you folks...” sounded accusatory? It wasn’t meant to).
I’m going to be pleased if I get it down to thirty minutes (go-to-woah). I can’t imagine ever being faster than that.
Then there's the local ban on gaming books at used book stores to contend with.wut
No local used book store will either buy or sell gaming books after getting stuck with literal tons of outdated 3rd ed D&D and whitewolf books in the early 2000s. They lacked the expertise to know which editions of which books were out of date and possibly re-saleable, so all of them stopped buying.
It's been years though, maybe they've changed their mind on that. I think I'll make the old circuit over the weekend and see.
So I saw this on twitter. Icv2 ranking for 2019.
Seems like paizo doing just fine? Weird list though. Don't see the 5e phb there.
No idea how well respected this is but seems like it's based on sell in to comic stores.
What I learned from that is that diamond distributors must be heavily invested in Paizo continuing to thrive!
Paizo products dominate the big sellers, plus there’s pretty extraordinary depth.
Actually, there’s some cool nuggets of information there.
Paizo sold more than twice as many pocket size PF1 CRBs as regular size CRBs into distribution in 2019. :)
(And more copies of the new Basic Flipmats than either of those).
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Then there's the local ban on gaming books at used book stores to contend with.wutNo local used book store will either buy or sell gaming books after getting stuck with literal tons of outdated 3rd ed D&D and whitewolf books in the early 2000s. They lacked the expertise to know which editions of which books were out of date and possibly re-saleable, so all of them stopped buying.
It's been years though, maybe they've changed their mind on that. I think I'll make the old circuit over the weekend and see.
… wow.
Nowadays, or even after 4e, they could probably move the older editions easily probably.
Managing Developer
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So I saw this on twitter. Icv2 ranking for 2019.
Seems like paizo doing just fine? Weird list though. Don't see the 5e phb there.
No idea how well respected this is but seems like it's based on sell in to comic stores.
What I learned from that is that diamond distributors must be heavily invested in Paizo continuing to thrive!
Paizo products dominate the big sellers, plus there’s pretty extraordinary depth.
Actually, there’s some cool nuggets of information there.
Paizo sold more than twice as many pocket size PF1 CRBs as regular size CRBs into distribution in 2019. :)
(And more copies of the new Basic Flipmats than either of those).
I know that Diamond is easily among our largest distributors, but even I was a little surprised to see 63 Paizo products on that list. (53 Pathfinder [both editions] and 10 Starfinder)
Yeah. I hope they send you folks a lovely christmas card every year, based on that list. :)
Not only lots of product but their biggest sellers by far.
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It sounds like he may live near me, provided he's 2 hours north of Paizo HQ. If so, he's not wrong. The game shops around here are now mostly warhammer, magic, and boardgames...
...You could probably attribute the differences to variation in local gaming cultures.
The problem with “people aren’t playing it in my local stores” as a metric of showing the rate at which the game is being adopted in a regions is that it doesn’t show the rate which the game is being adopted within a region. It only shows the rate with the game is being played at public table space in your area.
One would have to conduct a poll of all the gamers within a region to be able to provide anything more than observational conjecture.
I just don’t see how you can build a PC in 5 minutes. In 5E it’s fast because there’s minimal customisation beyond sub race and class specialisation (generally not until third level). Even then, I’d struggle to get it done in five minutes.
Choices take time.
For me I have a solid knowledge of lower level feats and features for the most part and since it is PF2e I don't have to worry too much about building for high level play or prerequisites.
So I just choose what is thematically appropriate without sweating on it too much as the character will be viable either way.
PF1e, I would make characters out to level 10 and have a plan for 10+, I wouldn't want to have a character become useless at later levels and that is so easy to do in PF1e.
It sounds like he may live near me, provided he's 2 hours north of Paizo HQ. If so, he's not wrong. The game shops around here are now mostly warhammer, magic, and boardgames...
...You could probably attribute the differences to variation in local gaming cultures.
The problem with “people aren’t playing it in my local stores” as a metric of showing the rate at which the game is being adopted in a regions is that it doesn’t show the rate which the game is being adopted within a region. It only shows the rate with the game is being played at public table space in your area.
One would have to conduct a poll of all the gamers within a region to be able to provide anything more than observational conjecture.
Very true. I'm only providing this information due to someone doubting another person's anecdote regarding not being able to find anyone in the area playing PF2. Since it sounds like we live near one another, and I see the same lack of players, I think it's possible we just live in a dead zone. It doesn't have much to do with the global market or uptake of the game at large, I'm just corroborating his experience.
My experience is only with local shops, my own gaming groups, character art commissions, and my daughter's high school gaming club and their associated gaming groups. There's more than enough room for an unnoticed PF2 player population to live. I'd only be half surprised if there was one.
I just don’t see how you can build a PC in 5 minutes. In 5E it’s fast because there’s minimal customisation beyond sub race and class specialisation (generally not until third level). Even then, I’d struggle to get it done in five minutes.
Choices take time.
For me I have a solid knowledge of lower level feats and features for the most part and since it is PF2e I don't have to worry too much about building for high level play or prerequisites.
So I just choose what is thematically appropriate without sweating on it too much as the character will be viable either way.
How long do you think it would take to do that? (Including writing it all up, choosing gear and so on)?
Again, I’m not challenging anyone, I’m genuinely curious at peoples radically different experience from my own.
Suppose you were to make “a fire themed wizard from an aristocratic, elven family”. How long until you could hand/email the DM your finalised PC?
(I mean mechanically. I’m counting everything including gear and spells, but not backstory).
I think I could do a non caster in 30 minutes with some more practise but not below there. A spellcaster or someone with an animal companion would take me a good hour at least, I think.
I think it's possible we just live in a dead zone. It doesn't have much to do with the global market or uptake of the game at large, I'm just corroborating his experience.
Or you’re an entrenched population of an existing community looking for players amongst your own likeminded peers. Assuming that everyone you know and see, even in a few circles within the community, reflects the entirety or even the majority of the gaming populace in your area neglects then very real fact that this has long been a hobby that exists in living rooms and basements just as much as it does on shop tables.
You don’t know what you don’t know, and the experience of not finding players is a personal anecdote not an actual piece of measurable data that needs corroboration.
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I think it's possible we just live in a dead zone. It doesn't have much to do with the global market or uptake of the game at large, I'm just corroborating his experience.Or you’re an entrenched population of an existing community looking for players amongst your own likeminded peers. Assuming that everyone you know and see, even in a few circles within the community, reflects the entirety or even the majority of the gaming populace in your area neglects then very real fact that this has long been a hobby that exists in living rooms and basements just as much as it does on shop tables.
You don’t know what you don’t know, and the experience of not finding players is a personal anecdote not an actual piece of measurable data that needs corroboration.
I agree it shouldn't need corroboration, I have no idea why someone felt the need to challenge someone else's personal experience, but that's just part of the weird background noise of the internet. I'm not a fan of seeing people's experience attacked, and I could easily back them up, so I did. I'm obviously not making the assumptions you suggest I'm making, and even go out of my way to explain the limits of my experience.
Again, I’m not challenging anyone, I’m genuinely curious at peoples radically different experience from my own.Suppose you were to make “a fire themed wizard from an aristocratic, elven family”. How long until you could hand/email the DM your finalised PC?
(I mean mechanically. I’m counting everything including gear and spells, but not backstory).
I think I could do a non caster in 30 minutes with some more practise but not below there. A spellcaster or someone with an animal companion would take me a good hour at least, I think.
Most of the difference comes from how important you feel your early choices are, and how thorough you are in making them. You can also cut down creation time by doing your stats first and generating your info from that. Set 18 16 14 12 10 8 out where you want them, set a race that tops your top and cuts your lowest, pick a background that hits one of your top two, and you're good to go. your armor is whatever finishes out your +5. Since feats can be retrained you just grab whatever will keep you alive at level one. Since most of the choices are minor in their effect one way or the other, and can be changed later, there's no reason to spend much time on them. Just spend your time on your permanent choices, heritage, and your main class silo.
5-10 minutes is probably plenty. Spell selection shouldn't take too much longer, most of your cantrips are spoken for, detect magic, read aura, a damage cantrip, and about two others. Your first level spells aren't too big a deal since you don't get many, pick one for you, one for the party, and one for fun and call it good.
Once you've got a handle on what's permanent and what's not, character creation is pretty fast. Trying to make every choice matter is probably futile and is just going to wear you down.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the choice making, I don’t want to de-emphasise it. (I’d never assign stats like that then see what ancestry and background gives me that array - It seems backwards to me).
I guess that’d be efficient, but is that really how you do it in practise?
Don’t get me wrong, I like the choice making, I don’t want to de-emphasise it. (I’d never assign stats like that then see what ancestry and background gives me that array - It seems backwards to me).
I guess that’d be efficient, but is that really how you do it in practise?
So, I took your prompt above of “a fire themed wizard from an aristocratic, elven family” and decided to see how long it would take me.
Couple of notes:
* I have a Google Doc template I use as my "character sheet".
* I did this with intent to see how fast it could be done.
* I used AoN for this, so maybe add a couple of minutes if using hard copy.
* Optimization was NOT a goal for this, but I think it ended up decent anyway.
* I accept that, in my haste, I may have missed something.
* I used the class kit because they are super handy and do a good job of covering all the starting gear I would typically choose anyway.
Given that... Alerion Farflame
Start to finish was ~20 minutes.
Things I do differently when I'm not optimizing for speed:
* Hyperlink all my stuff.
* Experiment with different combinations of things until something sparks joy.
How long do you think it would take to do that? (Including writing it all up, choosing gear and so on)?Again, I’m not challenging anyone, I’m genuinely curious at peoples radically different experience from my own.
Suppose you were to make “a fire themed wizard from an aristocratic, elven family”. How long until you could hand/email the DM your finalised PC?
(I mean mechanically. I’m counting everything including gear and spells, but not backstory).
I think I could do a non caster in 30 minutes with some more practise but not below there. A spellcaster or someone with an animal companion would take me a good hour at least, I think.
5-10 minutes for me on paper. 2-5 minutes digital.
I have done it.
The trick is not filling everything out only the important parts (untrained skills? No point adding up bonuses at level 1 you know they are just your ability score anyway)
Feats, I have comitted most to memory now if not by name but by function. Name and page number, use my phone and easy action library to find it mid session if I forget specifics.
It is nothing compared to running a game so I don't baulk at choices.
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Very true. I'm only providing this information due to someone doubting another person's anecdote regarding not being able to find anyone in the area playing PF2. Since it sounds like we live near one another, and I see the same lack of players, I think it's possible we just live in a dead zone. It doesn't have much to do with the global market or uptake of the game at large, I'm just corroborating his experience.
My experience is only with local shops, my own gaming groups, character art commissions, and my daughter's high school gaming club and their associated gaming groups. There's more than enough room for an unnoticed PF2 player population to live. I'd only be half surprised if there was one.
And I thank you, it’s just hard to believe. I live in the states in a relatively low population one at that, but I do live in a good sized city, and my experience has been the opposite.
When I lived in a small town though, there were of course no games for much of anything, but I attributed that to the local rather than the game itself.
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Making a char is easy and also deceptively hard. I have a rogue, and as you start getting into skills and skill feats and how they synergize with class feats it’s very complicated. You also need to be master in skills at 7 to get advanced skill feats so understanding the progression so important. A lot of feats can trap you, like weapon proficiency, that end up being dead feats later. Many ancestral abilities that are stealth based a rogue gets anyway through skills or class. Lastly, many end game rogue class abilities have legendary skill prerequisites that need to be thought about and planned for. So, yes easy to throw something up, complicated if you want to plan out correctly so you don’t screw yourself.
You don't need to "plan out correctly" retraining is built into the game. If you at a later level want to change something you can retrain it rather easily.
You're never locked into something, or in a position to "screw yourself"
LOL
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In this edition you have to almost be deliberate to make an ineffective or bad character. Not screwing up is almost a certainty if making a character in good faith.
I sat with new players, never made characters before, and all they had to do was ask themselves the right questions. Mainly “what do I want to be good at”.
I’d argue any character not made in bad faith can at the very least be played in an effective way. And even the most optimal builds do not dwarf others enough to make a huge difference.
When I play, whoever’s has the most luck with their dice and makes the right decisions/guesses is the most effective so far. That’s how it should be, IMO
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You don't need to "plan out correctly" retraining is built into the game. If you at a later level want to change something you can retrain it rather easily.
You're never locked into something, or in a position to "screw yourself"
LOL
I think too many people take this for granted.
Retraining is not guaranteed by any means. Your GM might not allow it, you might not get the week of downtime necessary (or not get it when it really matters), or you might not be able to find an NPC instructor.
You're right, you can retrain, but I'm getting tired of people acting like it's a given. It's not.
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I feel like "the circumstances of the campaign prevent retraining" is largely parallel to "the circumstances of the campaign prevent shopping." It's a thing that *can* happen, and it sometimes works well for the themes of the campaign, but generally as a GM this is a thing you should find space for at least occasionally.
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When you go up five levels in the course of a few days, there's generally not opportunities to go shopping in that time period either. This is a push-pull of "create negative space for player characters" versus "keep the action moving" that isn't really new in the game. So whatever experience GMs have for enabling "downtime activities" in PF1 (when we didn't call them that officially) can be used for downtime activities in PF2.
No, you can't retrain whenever you want. Yes, you should be able to do it sometimes.
Just have the retraining take place when you would normally allow PCs to do crafting or shop for things, since those are all downtime activities.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the choice making, I don’t want to de-emphasise it. (I’d never assign stats like that then see what ancestry and background gives me that array - It seems backwards to me).
I guess that’d be efficient, but is that really how you do it in practise?
Yeah, it is. PF2 doesn't seem to give narrative weight to stats, so I don't mind optimizing them without regard to anything else. And, with the exception of the newer races, the races aren't all that distinct. But if you have some specific mechanical features you want, that should only speed up character creation.
Elven wizard fills in quite a few boxes. It would take longer if you used your description as a guide rather than list of features. Ancient elven champion with elemental sorcerer dedication would be a great fit, and add a few minutes to character planning.
It's not that uncommon to have hours or even a couple of days for shopping and the like, but not a week or multiple weeks to retrain. There's a big difference in nearly any game I've been in.
It's a campaign style thing. Some it's easy to work in plenty of downtime at the player's whim. Others anything lengthy is rare.
Well, there's a different between "going to the market day and seeing what's on offer and buying some thing that are already there" and "I am looking for a specific item, perhaps it's made of special materials or has a specific rune on it, or it's a specific spell.
The sort of downtime that "I need a +3 Adamantine Rapier with the Answering and Cruel enhancements, let's go find one" was for. Not the sort of downtime that "oh, there's a dex belt that's better than the one I have" was for.