Take up of Second Edition


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I'm pretty confused about the "do you remember how to do Calculus the way you did it" anecdote, specifically because I did my graduate research on nonstandard analysis which is primarily useful as a heuristic tool, so in a very real way I got a lot better at knowing how to do Calculus than I was before I went to grad school (despite doing very little Calculus there.)

The point is, "do you remember how to do things you haven't done in X years", which is very much analogous to RPG retraining. You've let one skill degrade in favor of others. It's quite abstracted because no one wants to track every little bit of minutia but still grounded in reality.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Maybe that's why Harnmaster is such a niche game. :-)


ErichAD wrote:

Then there's the local ban on gaming books at used book stores to contend with.

You could probably attribute the differences to variation in local gaming cultures. They could streamline PF2 for squad based wargaming or a board game and do well up here though.

Ban on gaming books? What is that about?

Shadow Lodge

Bookstores don't want to carry product that won't sell.


TOZ wrote:
Bookstores don't want to carry product that won't sell.

Ah. The d20 glut and die off. Early 2000s crap wave eh?

Shadow Lodge

And if they don't have an employee familiar with the market, they risk buying a lot of out of date/shovelware that no one will buy and just takes up inventory space.


TOZ wrote:
And if they don't have an employee familiar with the market, they risk buying a lot of out of date/shovelware that no one will buy and just takes up inventory space.

It's not just bookstores. I've seen LGS who deal in the stuff taking in old bad ttrpg books.


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I *cleaned up* at the used book store with my 3.5 books when I took them in to sell them shortly after Pathfinder 1e launched. I heard one of the employees telling the other as I left the sell counter, "Get these on the shelves right away because they're going to go fast." Apparently, 3rd edition was popular in my area during the early 4e era.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think the retraining stuff you dont use makes sense. I'd definitely say I was once Trained in French but I haven't used it in 12 years and now I only really know the word for grapefruit because it sounds funny. Some stuff I've degraded over time but not fully thrown away, I was an expert in computing but have since moved into childcare, I dont have the time to keep up with the latest changes in technology and my coding is seriously rusty. In game terms I've retrained my Expert in Computing to trained in order to pick up Lore: Child Development.


SuperBidi wrote:

Predator's Pounce is a level 12 feat, so you already have Mighty Rage at that stage.

And at level 12, not raging for a Barbarian means being quite in trouble as most (if not all) of your abilities are only activated while raging.

Good catch, entirely missed mighty rage. I would still say that it isn't a straight upgrade and I can think of many situations where you would want to be wearing medium armour as an animal barbarian or where you would want the flexibility to do it outside of rage. But being able to rage as a free action does make it far more niche.

krazmuze wrote:
Tell that to ShadeRaven finally upto 5th level spells after as many months of updates. It is not at all that easy otherwise he would have knocked it out in the first week; if it was that easy devs would include manual fixing of unparsed spells as part of the release. And you would still be stuck with the roll vs. DC spells/skills because that is not in the ruleset

I respect what shaderaven is looking to do regarding automation, I do not agree that they have gone about it in the most efficient means. Nor are they just focusing on automating spells.

I will concede that I was being exaggeratory with my initial timeline, but the reality is that within what the ruleset is capable of it isn't difficult to automate spells and create a module (or better yet, create an extension to do it via xml overrides which is how I did it for 5e).

I wasn't talking about changing the ruleset functions though, that is something that takes more knowledge. I have however created extensions for 5e that check against "passive" skill DCs for some houserules I like to run. So it is doable.

HOWEVER, just because something is easy doesn't mean that Trenloe (the ruleset developer) is going to implement them. Look at the theme, it has horrible tiling issues, very easy to fix but still there because it is low priority. Or auto counting ammunition, I made an extension to do that in no time, but it is also not included.

The biggest issue with the PF2e ruleset in FG is that the developer chose to build on the PF1e ruleset from what I can see, there is heaps of dead or repurposed code. It is getting better with the changes over time, but it horribly messy and I don't envy having to work with it. I am guessing this is a result of wanting to get the ruleset ready for the playtest in a hurry.

But yes, again, I stand by my original statement that it isn't difficult to automate spells and make modules with them. I have one player who has taken the workload out of my hands for his character and does it idly while we play and each level before the players reach it. Level 1 was a bit of a slog thanks to having to do all the cantrips and level 1 spells but after that it has been pretty easy going.


The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:

Predator's Pounce is a level 12 feat, so you already have Mighty Rage at that stage.

And at level 12, not raging for a Barbarian means being quite in trouble as most (if not all) of your abilities are only activated while raging.

Good catch, entirely missed mighty rage. I would still say that it isn't a straight upgrade and I can think of many situations where you would want to be wearing medium armour as an animal barbarian or where you would want the flexibility to do it outside of rage. But being able to rage as a free action does make it far more niche.

Of course, I agree that they don't completely overlap. But I think the situations where you would prefer Sudden Charge may be many in number but nearly non existent in occurrence. The movement type being the only valid one for me.

Not raging is a very bad idea, as it would reduce your damage to half and remove most of your defensive abilities. And you can retrain Sudden Charge for Moment of Clarity if you really want to be able to switch.
Wearing a medium armor will never occur if you take Predator's Pounce as it's a prerequisite.


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SuperBidi wrote:


Not raging is a very bad idea, as it would reduce your damage to half and remove most of your defensive abilities. And you can retrain Sudden Charge for Moment of Clarity if you really want to be able to switch.
Wearing a medium armor will never occur if you take Predator's Pounce as it's a prerequisite.

It's not a prerequisite. It's a requirement.

It can't really be a prerequisite, since you can put armor on and take it off.
Which is the point - if for some reason I find it hard to conceive of, you wanted the flexibility to wear medium armor some of the time and light or no armor the rest, having both feats would be useful. But that's incredibly niche in my opinion. In the vast majority of cases, a character will settle on a primary set of armor and abilities that work with that, rather than trying to split focus


Joana wrote:
I *cleaned up* at the used book store with my 3.5 books when I took them in to sell them shortly after Pathfinder 1e launched. I heard one of the employees telling the other as I left the sell counter, "Get these on the shelves right away because they're going to go fast." Apparently, 3rd edition was popular in my area during the early 4e era.

In my area used 3.5e books still sell quite well. I have a recent group that just started playing 3.5e in the last year or so, and that's 7 people looking for used 3.5 PHBs now. I continually scan used bookstores for some of the gems I foolishly dumped some time ago.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

My local used book store gladly deals in game books. Unfortunately, I already had a copy of everything that had available for sale, and I don't have anything in that category that I am ready to sell.


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So...a few more thoughts on PF2 after Gm'ed my first table last weekend:

* I have even more appreciation for the 3 action economy than I did as a player. They really nailed this aspect of the system.
* The game looks to scale to high levels much better than 1E, so that's one 3.5/P1 bugbear slain.
* Many things that used to happen "automatically" are now reactions, which (for example) Orc Ferocity won't work if you've already spent your reaction for the round. I'm not sure how I feel about this...it creates some really interesting choices in combat, but also creates some really odd outcomes.
* Parts of the system could have used a little more time in the oven. For example, the way ongoing damage interacts with dying is awkward. If you're dying 3 with ongoing damage, you make a recovery roll that will be meaningless 70% of the time (because you'll die anyway if you fail the subsequent DC 15 flat check).

PFS is still the best OP campaign out there, and Paizo makes great accessories, but overall my experience just reaffirmed my belief that I'm not really the target market for 2E. I'll happily play it occasionally to hang out with friends, but the game remains too fiddly for my taste. In fact, it doesn't seem less fiddly than 1E...just differently fiddly.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Is there a game in this genre that isn't fiddly in some way?


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Ed Reppert wrote:
Is there a game in this genre that isn't fiddly in some way?

Everything exists in a spectrum, I certainly wouldn't say that because every system has fiddly bits somewhere that every system is fiddly.

PF2e has a lot of fiddly bits to keep track of in play and situational rules. It isn't nearly as irritating to run RAW as PF1e is (so many bespoke rules to keep track of).

It is certainly fiddlier than a lot of RPGs out there.


Ed Reppert wrote:
Is there a game in this genre that isn't fiddly in some way?

If the genre you're thinking of is "D&D-fantasy", probably not, and I'd include the OSR in that. If it's more general "Fantasy RPG", most can reasonably considered less 'fiddly'. There might be complicated segments such as character creation (hello, GURPS Dungeon Fantasy when you don't want to use any of the archetypes) but the actual play is unlikely to include so many things to keep track of.


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Bluenose wrote:
...but the actual play is unlikely to include so many things to keep track of.

You mean like the medicine skill and battle medicine skill feat, where my warpriest had to keep track of up to 10 separate timers for a party of 4 and an animal companion? ;)

Even our GM was a little irritated (and perhaps also a little annoyed) by my constant queries about the passing of time...


Ed Reppert wrote:
Is there a game in this genre that isn't fiddly in some way?

Dungeon World


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Ubertron_X wrote:
Bluenose wrote:
...but the actual play is unlikely to include so many things to keep track of.

You mean like the medicine skill and battle medicine skill feat, where my warpriest had to keep track of up to 10 separate timers for a party of 4 and an animal companion? ;)

Even our GM was a little irritated (and perhaps also a little annoyed) by my constant queries about the passing of time...

The cleric I GM for said she's going to start using a laminated sheet of paper with the party's names on it to keep track of who she's used Battle Medicine, Treat Wounds, and Guidance on.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

On VTT we just use a token to denote whether you are ready for Battle Medicine or not. In real life I'd print out a card or use a penny etc.


Battle Medicine, Inspiring Boosts, these kind of abilities are a pain to track, I don't understand why they created one in 2E, too...


SuperBidi wrote:
Battle Medicine, Inspiring Boosts, these kind of abilities are a pain to track, I don't understand why they created one in 2E, too...

I believe I get the intent: Make parties less dependent on having a cleric.

However, I find Battle Medicine to too effective. In the table I ran, it far, far outshone actual healing magic when there was a cleric present.

Another thing I like: The way multi-classing works. Seems like a good balance of investment/reward (though of course this is mostly an assumption on my part -- I've not seen this in play).


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bugleyman wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Battle Medicine, Inspiring Boosts, these kind of abilities are a pain to track, I don't understand why they created one in 2E, too...

I believe I get the intent: Make parties less dependent on having a cleric.

However, I personally find Battle Medicine to be a bit too effective (in addition to requiring a per character "timer"). In the table I ran, it far, far outshone actual healing magic when there was a cleric present.

Maybe at low levels, but the moment the party hits level 3 and the cleric has 2-4 free 2d10+16 heals they get their chance to shine.


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bugleyman wrote:

I believe I get the intent: Make parties less dependent on having a cleric.

However, I find Battle Medicine to too effective. In the table I ran, it far, far outshone actual healing magic when there was a cleric present.

.

* Healing via spells is the regular in-combat healing.
* Battle medicine is some kind of emergency in-combat healing, which is open to anyone, especially non-spellcasters.
* Treat wounds is out of combat healing.


Salamileg wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Battle Medicine, Inspiring Boosts, these kind of abilities are a pain to track, I don't understand why they created one in 2E, too...

I believe I get the intent: Make parties less dependent on having a cleric.

However, I personally find Battle Medicine to be a bit too effective (in addition to requiring a per character "timer"). In the table I ran, it far, far outshone actual healing magic when there was a cleric present.

Maybe at low levels, but the moment the party hits level 3 and the cleric has 2-4 free 2d10+16 heals they get their chance to shine.

Makes sense...I'm pretty sure the cleric at my table was only level 2.


Ubertron_X wrote:
bugleyman wrote:

I believe I get the intent: Make parties less dependent on having a cleric.

However, I find Battle Medicine to too effective. In the table I ran, it far, far outshone actual healing magic when there was a cleric present.

.

* Healing via spells is the regular in-combat healing.
* Battle medicine is some kind of emergency in-combat healing, which is open to anyone, especially non-spellcasters.
* Treat wounds is out of combat healing.

I understand. I should have written "it far outshone actual healing magic for in combat healing, even when there was a cleric present."

Though as has since been pointed out by Salamileg, that may have been because the cleric in question was only level 2 (still isn't great, but much less of an issue if it only exists before level 3).


bugleyman wrote:

I understand. I should have written "it far outshone actual healing magic for in combat healing, even when there was a cleric present."

Though as has since been pointed out by Salamileg, that may have been because the cleric in question was only level 2 (still isn't great, but much less of an issue if it only exists before level 3).

Yes, it is mainly a level 1 to 2 thing, where battle medicine does 2d8 points of healing (9 average) versus the clerics 1d8+8 (12.5 average). So in large groups (more than 4 players) BM can easily outheal the average 3 heals the cleric comes equipped with (36+ vs 37.5).

At level 3 and 4 a regular heal spell does 2d8+16 (25 average) and the BM still does 2d8 (9 average) unless you are going for risky rolls. So for a party of 4 that BM is still at 36 vs 75 from 3 heals.


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bugleyman wrote:


I believe I get the intent: Make parties less dependent on having a cleric.

Think their complaint was less about Battle Medicine existing and more about the cooldowns.

PF2 was supposed to do away with a lot of the fiddly math of 1e and while it succeeded in some ways, tracking various immunity timers is pretty tedious and fiddly too.


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Yeah, honestly kind of surprising they didn't find something else considering that standardizing durations/usages was a "big thing" in 2E, as you say. Really a simple change (that one could houserule) is changing it's usage limit from "1 day later" i.e. 24 hours to "1/ day" i.e. after your next daily rest and preparation you can now do it once more... even though that de facto almost always works out to a shorter duration than RAW, it seems like it largely serves same metagame purpose... with less fiddly discrete tracking of "exact" time of day, which most people aren't otherwise tracking for game events.


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Quandary wrote:
Yeah, honestly kind of surprising they didn't find something else considering that standardizing durations/usages was a "big thing" in 2E, as you say. Really a simple change (that one could houserule) is changing it's usage limit from "1 day later" i.e. 24 hours to "1/ day" i.e. after your next daily rest and preparation you can now do it once more... even though that de facto almost always works out to a shorter duration than RAW, it seems like it largely serves same metagame purpose... with less fiddly discrete tracking of "exact" time of day, which most people aren't otherwise tracking for game events.

Yeah, when I get around to running a game (right now I'm a player in one campaign), I'll change all instances of "immune for 24 hours" to "immune for 24 hours or until your next long rest, whichever comes first" (or whatever PF2 calls it).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I used to think the healing from the Medicine skill was maybe a bit strong, too, until I saw what a high level Cleric can actually do.

My players are currently 7th level and just had a really nasty fight (they actually ran away from it). At one point the cleric had 15-ish hit points left and instead of retreating decided to spend two actions dropping a heal on himself - this recovered 55-ish hit points, bringing him almost back to full health and completely undoing the damage he took in the last two turns.

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