Let's say that you have an archer than is limited to firing their bow once per round, with a single attack action (or rather, assume that they do not have access to a full round action, and must use their move action every round).
How would you go about selecting feats, abilities, items, etc to increase the viability of this kind of character? Serious/productive answers only, please. I REALLY do not want to hear about this crippling what an archer is supposed to be doing. This is a thought experiment that might eventually turn into a character concept if I find it meets a certain level of expectation on my end.
Thanks
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Use an orc horn bow and the vital strike line of feats.
Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighting, Improved/Greater Called Shot.
And yes, absolutely, Vital Strike feats with an Orc HornBow...
This would basically be a Rifle build. Because the fastest loading out there is a swift action, you kinda only do one shot per round.
Sniping as a Rogue, Vital Striking or Shot on the Run are all good options.
This would basically be a Rifle build. Because the fastest loading out there is a swift action, you kinda only do one shot per round.
Sniping as a Rogue, Vital Striking or Shot on the Run are all good options.
Rogue/Slayer with Shot on the Run, the Fast Getaway Talent, and a Decoy Ring is pretty legit.
Not sure if it works for this particular build, but it is a sound tactic.
Overwatch Tactician? Two shots for one standard action.
Thanks for the tips so far. I am hoping for more suggestions that are not class-specific, so that I have a wider range of abilities to draw from in the event that archery is not viable for certain encounters.
Vital strike is one of the best ways to do a switch hitter. It leads to a kind of silly flavor, but it allows for both decent melee and ranged. You can do it pretty viably with any class that has full bab.
Vital strike is one of the best ways to do a switch hitter. It leads to a kind of silly flavor, but it allows for both decent melee and ranged. You can do it pretty viably with any class that has full bab.
Very true, unless you are also looking at classes with 3/4 BAB. I have a certain predisposition towards playing the 3/4 BAB classes with a healthy dose of spellcasting. Vital Strike is certainly on the list for pickup when it can be taken. What about with the lower levels? Precise shot and Point-Blank shot are obvious necessities.
Vital strike is one of the best ways to do a switch hitter. It leads to a kind of silly flavor, but it allows for both decent melee and ranged. You can do it pretty viably with any class that has full bab.Very true, unless you are also looking at classes with 3/4 BAB. I have a certain predisposition towards playing the 3/4 BAB classes with a healthy dose of spellcasting. Vital Strike is certainly on the list for pickup when it can be taken. What about with the lower levels? Precise shot and Point-Blank shot are obvious necessities.
Vital Strike is particularly good with 3/4 class with access to Ranger Style Feats or easy access to Vital Strike – namely Nature Fang Druids, Warpriests, Vital Punishment for Vigilantes, anyone with the Mortal Usher PrC
Deadly aim is a possibility. Aiming for stealth and getting relevant feats is another. Getting a mount and relevant feats might work. If the 3/4 BAB class is a spellcaster there are more possibilities. It's kind of hard to guess what might be useful without more details though.
Deadly aim is a possibility. Aiming for stealth and getting relevant feats is another. Getting a mount and relevant feats might work. If the 3/4 BAB class is a spellcaster there are more possibilities. It's kind of hard to guess what might be useful without more details though.
Well, its not a guessing game. Im just looking for general feats or combinations that are more-or-less non-class specific. Any ideas you have are fine to offer, I'll just get more benefit from them if they can fit multiple classes as, in the end, it is up to me to decide which class I will get the most enjoyment out of.
I've been eye-balling Shot on the Run, and was wondering if it was possible to get Vital Strike working with it. If that's an option, I've got an idea on feat progression.
Stealth: skill focus (stealth), hellcat stealth, expert sniper are worth a look.
If you want a mount then animal ally & boon companion work. To ride and shoot look at mounted archery. To use a companion as a blocker look at beastmaster style.
Spellcasting options are really specific. True strike, metamagic reduction traits and quicken spell may work, but the equivalent as a rogue is quicken spell-like ability and no traits are required or useful. Infused spell cartridges is something to aim for if you use a gun and are not an eldritch archer magus (but are some kind of spellcaster). There are feats for the eldritch knight PrC, or for crossbow-wielding Abadarites, or for any number of niche cases. This is why some sort of concept is needed to narrow things down.
Shot on the run or spring attack never work with anything, it's a rule. Certainly not vital strike. Flyby attack does work though.
Be a Strix, take Flyby Attack, and you can use Vital Strike with it all you want. Strix can take Hover, as well. Which has its obvious advantages to an archer. The Strix has low-light vision and darkvision, also advantageous to an archer.
For one good shot a round I would use a heavy crossbow. It has a higher damage die, a better crit range, and longer range increment than a longbow. Plus, it can be shot while you are Prone... which may, or may not, come in handy. You can forego a lot of the reloading feats if you're just focusing on one shot per round.
I advise that you start with one level of Crossbow Maven Gunslinger to get a masterwork heavy crank crossbow for free, with free proficiency with said crank crossbow, and some Grit that allows you to target Touch AC out to your first range increment.
One shot a round could mean an alchemist focused on delivering a big bang every round, a mesmerist using ranged feint with cheap throwing weapons as a setup for their expensive returning weapon, a rogue sniper, a sorcerer aiming for named bullet, a poison darter ranger with expensive poisons, a gunslinger using fancy expensive ammo, or VoodistMonk's bolt ace gunslinger - and all those want different feats. Few feats are one size fits all.
Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighting, Improved/Greater Called Shot. And yes, absolutely, Vital Strike feats with an Orc HornBow...
Called Shots (note: "optional rules") are a full-round action, and hence can't qualify for Vital Strike.
Ok...always
Deadly aim
Bullseye shot
Precise shot
Point blank shot
Doesn't matter the class doesn't matter the bab....always those four feats (if you're looking at the whole 1 attack per round thing)
Potentially
Overwatch style unless you're absolutely wedded to only 1 shot no matter what, basically lets you ready up to 4 shots, each with a different trigger.
Vital strike borders on always, im iffy on it with a 3/4 bab class but warpriest gets a pseudo full bab so it gains some value there, as it would in any other 3/4 bab class that has some pseudo full bab clause.
Anything that improves sniping if you're playing a class with sneak attack. stealth boosters, penalty reducers, bonus damage etc etc etc.
I'm pretty sure the abadar and erastil divine fighting styles offer some options for standard action attacks with a bow.
Other than that, not much, by the time you get vital strike and the four must haves you're pretty much done and its in the hand of magic and equipment. Most archery feats and builds are based around lots of shots, not one big one.
Let's say that you have an archer than is limited to firing their bow once per round, with a single attack action (or rather, assume that they do not have access to a full round action, and must use their move action every round). How would you go about selecting feats, abilities, items, etc to increase the viability of this kind of character?
To make it even more interesting, let's imagine this character deliberately builds for this tactic (i.e., it's their preferred M.O., not just what they do when they can't loose a volley):
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
STR: 14
DEX+ 17 (raise 4th, 12th+Manual)
CON- 12
INT+ 17 (raise 8th)
WIS: 10
CHA: 7 (Elf, 15,15,14,14,10,7 20pt array)
racial alternative: Fey Thoughts (Fly and UMD are class skills)
traits: Underlying Principles (UMD is Int), Unshackled (Escape+1 is class)
01 Slayer1 [ST+1][Track], Deadly Aim
02 Slayer2 [Talent:Ranger Style:Archery:Focused Shot]
03 Slayer3 [SA+2d6] Accomplished Sneak Attacker
04 Slayer4 [Talent:Rogue Talent:Snap Shot]
05 Slayer5 [ST+2], Extra Slayer Talent:Deadly Range(SA=40')
06 Slayer6 [SA+3d6][Talent:Ranger Style:Archery:Manyshot]
07 Slayer7 [Stalker][ST:swift], Vital Strike
08 Slayer8 TALENT retrain to Advanced Rogue Talent:Quick Shot @10th
09 Slayer9 [SA+4d6], FEAT retrain to EST:RS:Arch:Imp Precise Shot @10th
10 Slayer10 [Advanced Talent:Marksman’s Shot]
11 Slayer11 [Swift tracker], Improved Vital Strike
12 Slayer12 [SA+5d6], TALENT ...etc.
Maxed skills: Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Fly, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, Survival, Use Magic Device
Gear: Lenses of the Predator's Gaze, Slayer's Robe, 5x5 Carpet of Flying, blingy hornbow (note: we do not need Seeking on this)
*Take a shot while rolling for initiative (Quick Shot).--Even though the build emphasis is on standard-action shooting, this is a one-time freebie worth taking.
* Init = 20 for the surprise round (Snap Shot).
* INT to damage (Focused Shot; range regrettably limited to 30).
* Avoids Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot tax-feats.
* Double sneak-attack dice (or versus Studied Targets (Marksman’s Shot).
* UMD wands of Gravity bow and Enlarge Person.
Standard action damage versus target 30':
* 16d6 (hornbow, Gravity bow + Enlarged + Improved Vital Strike)
* 10d6 (doubled sneak-attack versus swift-Studied Target)
* 4d6 (Manyshot arrow)
* Manyshot 2x (Int + Str + 8[Deadly Aim] + ST + Enh + additional numerics)
= ~30d6+35ish = ~140 or thereabouts (not counting Quick Shot, crits, or added dice, e.g. Bane, etc.)
(Such a concept would obviously emphasize snipe & hide tactics, and probably not cram pure damage into all available slots as above. E.g., you'll want the ability to shoot halfway through your move, the ability to full-move stealth, etc.)
* 4d6 (Manyshot arrow)
* Manyshot 2x (Int + Str + 8[Deadly Aim] + ST + Enh + additional numerics)
Unless I'm missing something obvious, there's a bunch of feats here that simply doesn't stack.
Manyshot only triggers on a full-attack, which means that you can't combine it with Vital Strike or Focused Shot. Focused Shot is its own standard action, which means you can't combine it with Vital Strike either.
I get that you're trying to cheese Manyshot by starting a full-attack and then interrupting it after the first attack, which isn't allowed, but even then you couldn't use Vital Strike/Focused Shot since those are standard actions.
16d6 (hornbow, Gravity bow + Enlarged + Improved Vital Strike)
Improved Vital Strike triples your damage dice. So a 16d6 sounds... improbable. Guess you confused it for Greater Vital Strike?
All in all, I'd wager the real damage is below 100.
I blame 5:30 in the morning posting time.
<Bronx cheer>
(Still, somewhat less than a hundred is comparable to, say, a Sap Master build single-shot slam, and with better range due to using a bow.)
Standard action damage versus target 30':
* 16d6 (hornbow, Gravity bow + Enlarged + Improved Vital Strike)
* 10d6 (doubled sneak-attack versus swift-Studied Target)
* Int + Str + 8[Deadly Aim] + ST + Enh + additional numerics
Focuses Shot is a standard action, and thus doesn't work with Vital Strike.
Enlarge person does not work for projectile weapons: "Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage."I don't see a means to actually enforce Sneak Attack after the first round, am I missing something?
* 3d6 damage base, +6d6 from ImpVS
* 10d6 Sneak Attack presuming you can actually SA the target
* 2+8+4+4 bonus damage
Presuming the target is flat-footed or something, 83 average damage against a CR12 enemy, for just over half its HP.
The workaround to the enlarged progectile projectile weapon problem is to carry a quiver of larger arrows. You drop them before being enlarged, then pick them back up. They are large, you are large, so no penalties, also they don't shrink back down.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would go with a grenadier alchemist with explosive missile.
First, the you get to add bombs to a ranged attack each round, you can also strap on an alchemist fire for another d6 and int damage. You also get splash damage which means more total damage per round (though not the most efficient way to do damage). The key here is that you can pick you bomb to target the weakest save and pile on a debilitating effect. Trade splash for more single target damage with targeted Bomb admixture.
I would likely also grab a mauler familiar and pump it full of extracts so I had more to do.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I blame 5:30 in the morning posting time. <Bronx cheer> (Still, somewhat less than a hundred is comparable to, say, a Sap Master build single-shot slam, and with better range due to using a bow.)
Take #2 at the howitzer build:
STR- 5
DEX+ 19
CON: 12 (halfling, 17,14,12,12,12,7 20pt array)
INT: 12
WIS: 12
CHA+ 16
alignment: LG; worship Erastil
racial alternative: Fleet of Foot
traits: Always Threatening, (Skillful, or Chance Encounter)
01 Slayer1 [ST+1], Bludgeoner (retrain to Quick Draw w/purchase of +1/Merciful/Training dagger)
02 uRogue1 [Bandit/Knife Master][Weapon Finesse][SA+1d8]
03 uRogue2 [Weapon Focus:Dagger], Extra Rogue Talent: Underhanded
04 uRogue3 [SA+2d8][dexterity damage to weapon* in melee], DEX>20
05 uRogue4 [Ambush][Combat Trick:Sap Adept][SA+3d8], Accomplished Sneak Attacker
06 Slayer2 [Talent:Trapfinding]
07 Slayer3 [SA+4d8], Sap Master
08 Slayer4 [Talent:Ranger Style:Archery:Far Shot]
09 Slayer5 [ST+2], Signature Skill (Stealth)
10 Slayer6 [SA+4d8][Talent retrained to Ranger:Arch:Imp Precise Shot @14th]
11 Slayer7 [Stalker][ST:swift], Extra Rogue Talent:Snap Shot
12 Slayer8 [Talent retrained to Advanced Rogue Talent:Quick Shot @14th]
13 Slayer9 [SA+5d8], FEAT(g)
14 Slayer10 [Advanced Talent:Marksman’s Shot]
(*Initially this will be dagger, but at leisure retrain to something else after upgrading the dagger to the Agile enhancement that it'll need to contribute dexterity damage to throws.)
Relevant gear: Concealing Pocket, Stag's Helm, Lenses of the Predator’s Gaze, Slayer's Robe, Merciful/Agile/Training(Weapon Versatility) dueling dagger of doubling
Exploits:
* Reroll a failed Bluff or Stealth check 1/day. (Skillful, or Chance Encounter)
* Quick Draw a concealed weapon as a free action. (Always Threatening)
* Shift grip as a free action to change damage type. (Weapon Versatility)
* Free-action make opponent flat-footed ranged attack 3/day. (Stag's Helm)
* Non-lethal bludgeoning for Sap Master (Bludgeoner, or Merciful + Weapon Versatility)
* Sneak-attack dice are d8s. (Knife Master rogue)
* Double #SA dice as an attack action versus ST. (Marksman’s Shot)
* Roll SA dice twice if SA flat-foot w/bludgeoning non-lethal. (Sap Master)
* +(#SA dice rolled) damage w/bludgeoning non-lethal SA. (Sap Adept)
* SA dice are maximized if SA w/concealed in surprise round. (Underhanded)
* Initiative is 20 for the surprise-round. (Snap Shot talent)
* Take a ranged attack coincident with rolling Init. (Quick Shot Adv. talent)
* Take swift+move+standard actions in surprise round. (Bandit rogue 4th)
* Throw the same weapon repeatedly without retrieval. (Dagger of Doubling)
* Gaseous Form 5min/day in 1min increments. (Slayer's Robe)
Character appearance: gregarious halfling wearing a comfortable sweater with "hand-warmer" style pockets in the front. The pockets are joined together inside, and represent the Concealing Pocket sewn into the garment; the Dagger of Doubling is stored in a sheath inside, and a split-off dagger can be drawn and thrown from either side. OCD behavior: we always have one hand on that thing.
Action economy: Pre-combat will see us in various ongoing buffs such as Invisibility, etc. Ideally we're able to Study potential opponents before fighting breaks out.
Combat: roll Init, and d20 result will be 20 for this phase regardless of the die roll
- All opponents lacking Uncanny Dodge are flat-footed for the moment.
- free action: split Dagger of Doubling.
- swift action: throw a dagger as a Quick Shot coincident with the Initiative check.
- free action: activate Lenses of the Predator’s Gaze (if not done already)
- free action: Study target (if not already Studied) if sneak successful.
...The initiative check is now over, and the surprise round begins.
Ambush (surprise) round (our Init roll is still treated as a nat-20):
- free action: activate Stag's Helm (if necessary)
- standard: out zings another split dagger.
- move: Stealth into hiding after snipping, rerolling if necessary.
- swift: Study a new target, or do something else requiring a swift; otherwise might not be used.
Since the "kept" portion of the Dagger of Doubling never leaves its place of concealment, no action-wasting checks need be made to keep it that way. (That thing is phenomenal value for the money given that it obviates the necessity of a Blinkback belt, thereby freeing that slot up for the dex belt we really want.)
Round #1 (Same as Ambush round, but our Init count is now whatever we actually rolled.)
Standard-action damage:
d3 (small dagger)
d6 (merciful)
20 (Sap Adept tabulating 5 sneak-attack dice, their count doubled, then rolled twice)
160 (those 20 d8s are maximized by Underhanded)
= ...almost 200 just from that. (Each original sneak-attack die is worth 36pts.)
The Quick Shot doesn't qualify for Marksman's Shot, so only ten d8s are rolled for that, generating 10 from Sap Adept, and 80 from Underhanded.
Combined, it'll be deep into mid-300s damage when all other numeric and additional dice are factored. Rounds after the surprise lose Underhanded, dropping the maximized d8s back to 4.5 average, so 70 less damage without it on a Sap Master Marksman’s Shot.