so... One of my players is going to try to play as an Order of the Nail hellknight and another is going to be playing a Wild Order druid.
The Hellknight is looking to advice on why he wouldn't murder the Wild order Druid, eventually. I am by no means an expert on the Measure and the Chain is there a way that they could potentially get along?
Throw a demon at them. One that is torturing animals and small children from the city.
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It may seem crazy, but not all characters are appropriate to work together.
It sounds like these two wouldn't have been in a party together in the first place, and the most realistic "in world" response is that maybe one of them should choose to play something else.
However, I can also see where that would chafe against the players themselves.
But this really isn't different than having a necromancer and a paladin in the same party.
It's equally problematic and the one is kind of driven by their very existence to destroy the other.
You can come up with REASONS™ that the characters would put aside their basic desire to kill each other by giving them something far more important to kill.
But these kinds of characters just wouldn't work together long term if we're being honest.
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Well, so long as the Wild Order Druid isn't trying to attack and destroy Chelaxian cities, I see no problem in Order of the Nail working with them.
"They also seek to destroy anyone who does not accept Chelaxian culture along with the wild beasts that threaten the safety of civilization."
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I think order of the nail is not so much murder all wildlife but kill stuff that is a threat to villages/cities and frankly that is kinda what adventurers generally do.
Well, so long as the Wild Order Druid isn't trying to attack and destroy Chelaxian cities, I see no problem in Order of the Nail working with them.
"They also seek to destroy anyone who does not accept Chelaxian culture along with the wild beasts that threaten the safety of civilization."
One could argue the wild order anathema that forbids them from being fully domesticated by civilisations requires them to reject Chelaxian culture, this putting them in hellknight crosshairs.
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I'm kinda curious what the campaign is that both of these characters seem suitable for the scenario. An Order of the Nail Hellknight isn't going to care about anything that isn't a direct threat to the cities, and the Wild Druid isn't going to care about the cities.
I can imagine both showing up in an Age of Ashes campaign.
I can imagine both showing up in an Age of Ashes campaign.
it's age of ashes, so they're gona have a fort at some point.
also it's "eventually" try to kill each other, not on first sight.
The Measure and the Chain however seems pretty adamant about what to do with people who impede progress and whatnot. compassion and exceptions are specifically said to be weaknesses in the measure and the chain and shouldn't be given.
One could argue the wild order anathema that forbids them from being fully domesticated by civilisations requires them to reject Chelaxian culture, this putting them in hellknight crosshairs.Well, so long as the Wild Order Druid isn't trying to attack and destroy Chelaxian cities, I see no problem in Order of the Nail working with them.
"They also seek to destroy anyone who does not accept Chelaxian culture along with the wild beasts that threaten the safety of civilization."
my worry as well.
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Because people playing the game together shouldn't play characters that are incompatible. Either just...work it out and relegate disagreement to friendly ribbing or don't play those characters.
Unless your group is into PVP. Then go nuts, I guess.
The Hellknight has a bit of a tough quandary here, and it's largely based on how the druid plays. Are they actively trying to stop the spread of civilization? Or are they there, fighting against the potential terror that the campaign is threatening?
Personally, I think there's a lot of fun in having disparate characters work together against an enemy they both must face. Sometimes they'll argue about how to do that, for sure! But frankly, having read through the first four books of the campaign, I am really confident in saying that a Hellknight and a shapeshifting druid have an awful lot in common in terms of enemies they can't help but square off against.
I kind of always wonder about Hellknights anyways. Why are they off adventuring, like ever? Aren't they incredibly regimented and disciplined? So why would one break ranks and go wander about with a clump of random warriors? Seems to me that the Hellknight is going to have to learn how to bend the rules to defeat greater threats to society, at the same time the druid will need to learn to toe the line within and around civilization if they want to preserve the beauty and power of nature.
Because people playing the game together shouldn't play characters that are incompatible. Either just...work it out and relegate disagreement to friendly ribbing or don't play those characters.
Unless your group is into PVP. Then go nuts, I guess.
thankfully, they're both good friends so it's not likely to be an issue. to clarify from the OP, the hellknight asked more for a better reason than "well we're the players" for why he might have a jolly old time with the druid, and not eventually feel he has to enforce his anti-savagery ways on him before level 20.
i'll probably just hold back on enforcing any anathema stuff unless they get really lax.
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They can be friends that constantly try to convince each other that other is wrong?
People need to stop reading absolute proclamations and insisting they be followed in the most literal way possible ALL the time. People are imperfect, they may strive for a particular goal, but they are not absolute automatons. Leave that to Champions, theirs is the sphere of massacre and atrocity for the sake of absolutes.
That is pretty much what Hellknights do, though. They follow the law, no matter what, and in the most direct way possible. They hold themselves to the standard that everyone else should be aspiring to. If you were going to play an absolutist character I feel it'd be more likely to be a Hellknight than a champion.
There's no law saying, you should slay everyone who don't live in cities. Instead, it's fighting against the threats. And presumably promoting.
You can easily have it as Hellknight trying to convince the Druid they're mistaken and should embrace civilised life.
Alternatively, they can take them as necessary evil, a peasant that provides the food for the city life kinda deal.
They can be friends that constantly try to convince each other that other is wrong?
People need to stop reading absolute proclamations and insisting they be followed in the most literal way possible ALL the time. People are imperfect, they may strive for a particular goal, but they are not absolute automatons. Leave that to Champions, theirs is the sphere of massacre and atrocity for the sake of absolutes.
the measure and the chain specifically says that all people are imperfect and thus none can be given clemency, not even hellknights.
The concept of mercilessness, the Hellknights’ third
philosophical link, teaches that all are guilty of some
infraction against order, and compassion is damaging to
civilization and inhibits social progress. Exceptions to
this rule, the Hellknights believe, pave a path to anarchy.
As all have transgressed, none are worthy of mercy—
including individual Hellknights themselves, who hold
themselves to the highest standards of their own tenets.
also, people should understand they don't follow "the law", they follow the measure and the chain an overriding law that the hellknights have put together to form the perfect peaceful society. they will ignore local laws if they go against the measure and the chain.
more probable is the players just won't try to kill each other, but I was hoping for some precedent that might be used to make things easier. narratively speaking.
I’d encourage them to have each other as longtime friends before their paths split. Their philosophies are pretty much diametrically opposed, but they could still work towards a common goal if they respect each other. The Hellknight may view the druid as an important buffer between humanity and the wilds, even though they believe the druids will eventually cease to exist as an organization. The druid might believe the Hellknight is missing the bigger picture, but is content in the knowledge the nature will always remain.
Find a way for the wild druid to not be rejecting chelaxian culture. Like, if they live in the forest as a forest ranger or wilderness guide they aren't domesticated by the comforts of civilisation but they are still serving the Chelaxian empire and accepting Chelaxian culture.
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They can be friends that constantly try to convince each other that other is wrong?
This is probably how it would play out with my friends at my table. One of them would constantly be trying to convince the other to change their ways etc. One-upping them, or making jokes trying to show how their way is better etc.
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The opposite of accepting chelaxian culture (which is not equal to Thrune's diabolism BTW) is trying to bring it down.
As long as the Druid does not have a specific aim of destroying chelaxian culture, all should be well. Heck they might even want to end House Thrune and the worship of Asmodeus and still be fine if they see it as a way to bring back the real pre-Thrune chelaxian culture.
Also no Hellknight, no Champion, no character is required to be a jerk that enforces their beliefs on others.
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Imo, your best bet is to bring your two players together and the three of you discuss concepts and work something out.
How aggressive does you hellknight want to be about enforcing his code on others? Sure, the wild order says "don't become domesticated by civilization", but only the strictest of readings would throw that into "does not accept chelish culture". By that level of strictness, you'd also be obligated to murder anyone who hails from any culture that isn't chelish as well. At the very least, it seems that a pc hellknight could get away with reading this as "so long as you don't utterly reject chelish culture as intrinsically bad, we're cool"
Also, how does the druid want to behave? I could definitely see them conflicting if they went full Princess Mononoke levels of hating civilization, but "don't get completely domesticated by the comforts of civilization" is pretty vague and open. One could argue that a wild order druid who lived in a city, but spent most of their time wild shaped, looking after and living among the stray animals in the city would count as not being fully domesticated on the grounds that while they live in the city, they aren't really relying on its conveniences. Even your classic hermit in the woods type of druid really wouldn't count as a threat to civilization unless they took hostile actions against it.
Given that the players are asking these kinds of questions, and that they are good friends, it seems like they should be able to talk it out. I get the impression that your hellknight is mostly just looking for an iron clad justification to cooperate with their druid buddy despite their differences rather than looking to the internet for justification for violence. If worst comes to worst, since there's really not a lot of mutual exclusiveness here, you, as a dm, are free to alter the parameters of one or both codes in a way that keeps the spirit while removing the conflict, or you can ask one or both to bring different concepts.
but I was hoping for some precedent that might be used to make things easier. narratively speaking.
If you want new suggestions, it would be helpful if you explain why the suggestions already in the thread don't work for you.
Because it seems like pointing out there's no need for them to even want to at all and listing the ways their relationship can be more friendly like other people have done covers this pretty well.