Shield numbers are... worrying

[dmerceless]

This is the first post I make here since the Playtest, but I think it's an important topic that hasn't been discussed that much. The starting shield numbers are fine, I have nothing to complain about them, and I really love how the shield rules work in general, but... When you get to higher and higher level shields, stuff starts getting a little worrying, to say the least. The problem can basically be summed up as "anything that's not a Sturdy Shield gets progressively worse at blocking with levels", but I'll explain it in more detail here:

Let's start with the Lion's Shield. It's a level 6 shield, 6 hardness, 36 HP. Not exactly the best, but it's still pretty useable at that level. Compared to a level 4 Minor Sturdy Shield (8 Hardness, 64 HP), it's a little weaker and more expensive, but has an effect. It's not the greatest effect to be honest, but if this was the norm, I would be pretty much fine with it. But it's not. It gets worse, much worse.

Let's take our shield dude to 10th level and take a look at the Forge Warden. Gives a bit of fire resist, lets you deal 2d6 damage to someone when you block their attack. Pretty good, right? Well, its stats are Hardness 6, 24 HP. Not only atrocious compared to a level 10 Sturdy Shield (Hardness 13, 104 HP), but it's actually worse than the 6th level I just mentioned. In fact, it's just slightly, almost insignificantly better than a 1st level Steel Shield. Just as a point of comparison, a Marid, which is a pretty averagely-statted 9th level creature hits for 2d8+11, which could easily destroy (not break) this shield in one hit. Without a crit.

As I've mentioned though, this gets worse as you go higher in the levels. If you look at the highest level specific shield in the game (that's not the Indestructible one, which is good for obvious reasons), the Reflecting Shield, it has... The exact same stats as the Forge Warden. What? At this level, even a level-4 creature can easily one shot this on a low roll. Just as a comparison, a 19th level Sturdy Shield has 20 Hardness and 160 HP.

My point with all of that is. I'm pretty sure the intention would be that you could choose between having a Sturdy Shield and block a decently higher amount of damage, or have a specific shield and block a little less, but have a cool effect too. That's totally not what happens in practice though, because it looks like all the specific shields were statted completely ignoring their levels for some reason.

I've taken a look at the Precious Metal shields, and they follow the same pattern for the most part. Some (like the Orichalcum Shield) are a little more decent, but some others (like the Silver Shield) manage to be even worse. In general, I'm happy with the shield rules, but I'm really trying to understand what happened with their stats.

PS: Just as a cool little Shield Fact™️, if you use an Arrow-Catching shield against an arrow of a level-appropriate creature, you have like a 90% chance of attracting the arrow to you and that arrow instantly breaking your Arrow-Catching shield like a sheet of paper. Fun times.

[drowranger80]

Are the example specific shields all built on the first level one? That might explain it.

[Squiggit]

The problem seems to be that the unique shields don't actually have leveled stats at all. They're enchantments applied to regular shields, which all have stats designed to be purchaseable at level 1 or 2.

If there was a high-grade steel shield (Which there isn't because steel isn't a special material) that'd basically be the stats that shields like the forge shield have.

[Zman0]

Yep. There were serious issues in line with these in the playtest as well and they did absolutely nothing to fix them. Worse, they just updated them to the new shield format without fixing them. Shields were based off the early shields and did not scale with level and still don't. IMO, it is kind of ridiculous that they would fail to address this absolutely glaring error. I mean, it was a known issue, and is pretty obvious, and less than nothing was done about it. This is the kind of thing that makes this book look like an unfinished product.

[WatersLethe]

Yeah I definitely noticed this. I was tempted to rule Sturdy Shield progression as the progression of all shields. So if your Cool Shield is item level 10,look for the closest Sturdy Shield stats and replace with those.

[Squiggit]

Orichalcum might not have as terrible scaling as Silver or nonexistent scaling like unique shields, but it and adamantine are still pretty underwhelming given that they're rare and uncommon and still pretty much completely eclipsed by the sturdy shield.

[heliodorus04]

Perhaps I've got a different opinion?
I don't deny the maths, but: you don't have to absorb the damage with the shield if you don't want to
and
it's a magical world with a 1st level Mending spell (now I'm a novice at pathfinder, and maybe Mending doesn't scale to fix higher level stuff well).

Considering that you don't have to absorb damage with the shield, and that mathematically speaking, when you do absorb damage to the shield, you're increasing the absolute damage inflicted by the attack; and consider it's never been particularly difficult in RPGs to heal yourself, I ask if this is that big a problem to a roleplaying game?

I've always played shield tanks, and I am in fact a bit discouraged by the maths. But this is in fact a new shield capability that most games have never featured (I myself played Runequest back in days of yore, which worked similarly).

In Runequest, when an item's "hardness" was exceeded, all remaining damage went through to the wielder, and the shield's hardness was reduced by 1. This could be repeated until, after the 11th hit, a 12-hardness shield would absorb (only 1 damage) and the shield would finally break.

[John Lynch 106]

heliodorus04 wrote:

I ask if this is that big a problem to a roleplaying game?

Can I ask what you mean by this question? I'm confused by it.

[graystone]

heliodorus04 wrote:

it's a magical world with a 1st level Mending spell (now I'm a novice at pathfinder, and maybe Mending doesn't scale to fix higher level stuff well).

Mending :" You can't replace lost pieces or repair an object that's been completely destroyed."

[Mechalibur]

The Reflecting and Spellguard shields seem fine to me, since their benefits are unrelated to blocking. A monk or bard for example could get some use out of them without ever getting access to shield block.

When it comes to blocking, though, it's definitely Sturdy Shield or bust. Adamantite, which is known for being incredibly hard and durable, can't even compare. I guess if you bash with it, you can take advantage of the metal, but that seems like a dedicated weapon would be better for that. Not really sure what happened here, design-wise.

[FowlJ]

heliodorus04 wrote:

Perhaps I've got a different opinion?

I don't deny the maths, but: you don't have to absorb the damage with the shield if you don't want to
and
it's a magical world with a 1st level Mending spell (now I'm a novice at pathfinder, and maybe Mending doesn't scale to fix higher level stuff well).

Mending doesn't work on destroyed items, only broken ones. Which is pretty much the whole problem here, that these (extremely expensive) shields will rarely be merely broken, because their hitpoints don't measure up well to the damage dealt by higher level creatures.

If the shields scaled enough to keep up, it wouldn't really matter if they weren't great. The Reflecting Shield is a buckler, so it isn't really meant for regularly blocking attacks in the first place, but it can't block most attacks at all, unless you feel like spending 18000gp on a replacement.

(It is actually cheaper for an 18th level character to die and get revived by a ritual than it is for them to replace a destroyed Reflecting Shield, to the tune of 7200gp saved.)

[thenobledrake]

...so shields with offensive capability enhancements don't also defend you as well as defense-focused shield enhancements?

I'm not sure I view that as an actual problem.

[graystone]

thenobledrake wrote:

...so shields with offensive capability enhancements don't also defend you as well as defense-focused shield enhancements?

More they explode into fine pieces if you try to use them defensibly once, destroying the item. No one is complaining that they defend you less: they are complaining that they defend you at level 1 levels no matter what level the shield is. So not less defensive, but level one defensive.

[Edge93]

dmerceless wrote:

Let's take our shield dude to 10th level and take a look at the Forge Warden. Gives a bit of fire resist, lets you deal 2d6 damage to someone when you block their attack. Pretty good, right? Well, its stats are Hardness 6, 24 HP. Not only atrocious compared to a level 10 Sturdy Shield (Hardness 13, 104 HP), but it's actually worse than the 6th level I just mentioned. In fact, it's just slightly, almost insignificantly better than a 1st level Steel Shield. Just as a point of comparison, a Marid, which is a pretty averagely-statted 9th level creature hits for 2d8+11, which could easily destroy (not break) this shield in one hit. Without a crit.

Minor nitpick on this example. No it can't. 2d8+11. Average is 20, max is 27. Shield has Hardness 6, HP 24. Block an average hit, you and shield take 14. Block a max hit (1 in 64 chance BTW) and you and shield take 21 damage. Both of those do break the shield but neither destroys it.

Not saying the numbers don't need tweaked, just saying that this example foe can't destroy this shield in one hit at all, let alone easily. (though it can break the shield in one hit fairly reliably, oof.)

[Shisumo]

It seems to me that you're telling us that some high-level shields are designed for shield blocking, while others are designed for the AC bonus and some other effect, with shield blocking something of a last resort.

Is that really an unsustainable paradigm? (Especially since not everyone even gets the ability to shield block in the first place?)

[Quandary]

I mean, if somebody doesn't have Shield Block, then giving high level shields more HPs doesn't really impact the game, so why hold out? Forcing people who do have/use Shield Block to focus only one line of Shields really makes all the space used developing diverse Shields useless for them if they are serious about Shield Block.

I agree with OP and others that level wasn't properly taken into account, either generically or via lack of properly scaled special materials including high quality steel. I also wonder if scaling via enchantment runes was once considered but dropped without being properly replaced.

[Pumpkinhead11]

Why are all of these examples being compared to the Sturdy Shield? It’s coming off like a comparison between a Luxury and a Tank. At the moment i do feel you’re right about the Forge Warden being a bit too fragile for what it’s suppose to do though. It almost looks like the only real use it’s for is with a Shield Ally or against low level fodder.

[graystone]

Shisumo wrote:

It seems to me that you're telling us that some high-level shields are designed for shield blocking, while others are designed for the AC bonus and some other effect, with shield blocking something of a last resort.

Is that really an unsustainable paradigm? (Especially since not everyone even gets the ability to shield block in the first place?)

It's more that there is ONE shield type "designed for shield blocking", sturdy. You really have no variety past how sturdy it is.

Now people using a shield JUST for AC can actually pick a shield based on taste and abilities of the shield.

[Staffan Johansson]

I haven't looked into this much, but as a gut reaction: I don't really have a problem with the hardness of high-level shields, but they should definitely have more hit points. That way, blocking with them still wouldn't help all that much defensively, but at least the shield wouldn't be blown to smithereens.

[thenobledrake]

graystone wrote:

thenobledrake wrote:

...so shields with offensive capability enhancements don't also defend you as well as defense-focused shield enhancements?

More they explode into fine pieces if you try to use them defensibly once, destroying the item. No one is complaining that they defend you less: they are complaining that they defend you at level 1 levels no matter what level the shield is. So not less defensive, but level one defensive.

I'm not seeing a whole heap of creatures that can dish out high enough damage with a single attack to make your claim not hyberbolic in nature, or at the very least have it not boil down to "shields don't hold up against the attacks of creatures that are both high-level and big as heck"

[graystone]

thenobledrake wrote:

graystone wrote:

thenobledrake wrote:

...so shields with offensive capability enhancements don't also defend you as well as defense-focused shield enhancements?

More they explode into fine pieces if you try to use them defensibly once, destroying the item. No one is complaining that they defend you less: they are complaining that they defend you at level 1 levels no matter what level the shield is. So not less defensive, but level one defensive.

I'm not seeing a whole heap of creatures that can dish out high enough damage with a single attack to make your claim not hyberbolic in nature, or at the very least have it not boil down to "shields don't hold up against the attacks of creatures that are both high-level and big as heck"

Pick an 18th level monster once. Now compare the damage to a Reflecting Shield [level 18]. It doesn't take even max damage normal hits to blow it up. Take a floating shield [level 16] vs 16th level monsters, same conclusion. How about a Arrow-Catching Shield vs 11th level creatures... Want to make a guess how that turns out... We're only talking 30 damage to destroy any of those shields and each creature I looked at 11+ can do that without maxing out normal damage rolls. Did you actually compare creatures of the same levels of the shields before you cried "hyberbolic"?

[thenobledrake]

I actually looked at 12th level monsters compared to the level 10 shield, picking some that I figured would be "hard hitters", and found that they'd typically take 2-3 average damage hits to "blow up" the shield.

Levels 16 and 18... all those in the bestieary are massive things that should be able to smash a shield in a single blow.

Going down to 11th level... an adult dragon attack can get blocked by a shield and that shield not immediately shatter. Sure, a high damage roll could happen and then the shield could shatter but that is significantly different from the "explode into fine pieces if you try to use them defensibly once" that you claimed.

[Captain Morgan]

Personally, a fix I want to try is letting named shields be made from stronger materials. It seems easy to figure out the costs and an adamantine Forge Warden seems a lot more usable.

[FowlJ]

thenobledrake wrote:

Levels 16 and 18... all those in the bestieary are massive things that should be able to smash a shield in a single blow.

Someone should probably inform you that shields in PF2 can also be level 16 and 18, since you seem to have missed that somehow.

Quote:

I actually looked at 12th level monsters compared to the level 10 shield, picking some that I figured would be "hard hitters", and found that they'd typically take 2-3 average damage hits to "blow up" the shield.

Literally no level 12 physical attacker (the exceptions being the Shining Child and the Lich, whose basic attacks are primarily or entirely energy based) takes 3 hits on average to destroy a Forge Warden, so that's definitely stretching it a bit. Most of them do take 2 hits, technically, in that they have slightly less than a 50% chance of outright destroying your shield.

[Perpdepog]

Mechalibur wrote:

The Reflecting and Spellguard shields seem fine to me, since their benefits are unrelated to blocking. A monk or bard for example could get some use out of them without ever getting access to shield block.

When it comes to blocking, though, it's definitely Sturdy Shield or bust. Adamantite, which is known for being incredibly hard and durable, can't even compare. I guess if you bash with it, you can take advantage of the metal, but that seems like a dedicated weapon would be better for that. Not really sure what happened here, design-wise.

You could even grab yourself an adamantine shield boss or some shield spikes, and then be able to slap runes on them, making the adamantine shield even more sad. Not to mention that its whole shtick, being really hard, is outdone by another material in the form of horacalcum.

Slightly off-topic here, but so far special materials have been my single major sticking point with PF2.

[mavbor]

Basically Sturdy Shield for shield block builds and all other shields for everyone else who does not shield block. Shield blocking once will break the shield (break not destroy) normally so do not even think about it.

This is a problem for those who want to shield block but most do not see a problem because they don't plan to shield block. Hope when they have a problem people do not take the same attitude of not seeing a problem just because it is not THEIR problem.

Currently an active shield block user can not get special abilities on something they specifically built around other than to get it to block more and soak up more damage while all others can get special abilities on their shields.

[Corvo Spiritwind]

Can we upgrade the specific shields like Lion Shield so it gains more hp/hardness?

[Stack]

Obviously Paizo assumes you will use two shields at once, one for shield block, one for special effects.

[John Lynch 106]

Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

Can we upgrade the specific shields like Lion Shield so it gains more hp/hardness?

Doesn't appear so. Unlike runes, sturdy shield is a type of shield. So you can't mix and match.

[Corvo Spiritwind]

John Lynch 106 wrote:

Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

Can we upgrade the specific shields like Lion Shield so it gains more hp/hardness?

Doesn't appear so. Unlike runes, sturdy shield is a type of shield. So you can't mix and match.

Ah buggah. So each time we upgrade a shield, we gotta toss the old one and grab a new one it seems.

[John Lynch 106]

Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

John Lynch 106 wrote:

Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

Can we upgrade the specific shields like Lion Shield so it gains more hp/hardness?

Doesn't appear so. Unlike runes, sturdy shield is a type of shield. So you can't mix and match.

Ah buggah. So each time we upgrade a shield, we gotta toss the old one and grab a new one it seems.

Yup. Welcome to the new edition :) Mandatory upgrades for everyone! Don't dare attach any story importance to non-upgradable items!

[Penthau]

Could a sturdy shield be made of adamantine instead of steel?

[Captain Morgan]

John Lynch 106 wrote:

Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

John Lynch 106 wrote:

Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

Can we upgrade the specific shields like Lion Shield so it gains more hp/hardness?

Doesn't appear so. Unlike runes, sturdy shield is a type of shield. So you can't mix and match.

Ah buggah. So each time we upgrade a shield, we gotta toss the old one and grab a new one it seems.

Yup. Welcome to the new edition :) Mandatory upgrades for everyone! Don't dare attach any story importance to non-upgradable items!

Which is, again, why I plan to house rule you can use special materials to make named shields. I'd like our dwarven shield fighter to find a Forge Warden and be like "oh hell yeah," instead of throwing it on the sell pile.

[Corvo Spiritwind]

John Lynch 106 wrote:

Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

John Lynch 106 wrote:

Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

Can we upgrade the specific shields like Lion Shield so it gains more hp/hardness?

Doesn't appear so. Unlike runes, sturdy shield is a type of shield. So you can't mix and match.

Ah buggah. So each time we upgrade a shield, we gotta toss the old one and grab a new one it seems.

Yup. Welcome to the new edition :) Mandatory upgrades for everyone! Don't dare attach any story importance to non-upgradable items!

I'm guessing there was some shield shenanigans they wanted to bypass since shields now don't use profiency or runes at all.

[Mechalibur]

Penthau wrote:

Could a sturdy shield be made of adamantine instead of steel?

There are no rules for that.

[WatersLethe]

Conceptually, I'm fine with considering "Specific Shields" a transferable mega-rune. Use Hardness/HP of the rune or material, whichever is better.

[sherlock1701]

I feel like they should have used the rune system for shields like they did with weapons and armor. It would be similar to how they worked in the past and avoid this issue entirely.

[thenobledrake]

FowlJ wrote:

Someone should probably inform you that shields in PF2 can also be level 16 and 18, since you seem to have missed that somehow.

Uh... nope? I am fully aware that there are shields that their specific feature is to be able to stand up to bigger hits than other shields can.

FowlJ wrote:

Literally no level 12 physical attacker (the exceptions being the Shining Child and the Lich, whose basic attacks are primarily or entirely energy based) takes 3 hits on average to destroy a Forge Warden, so that's definitely stretching it a bit. Most of them do take 2 hits, technically, in that they have slightly less than a 50% chance of outright destroying your shield.

I will admit to having accidentally looked at the level 5 cyclops when I went to check the damage of the level 12 cyclops - so yes, not 3 average damage hits. Just 2.

[WatersLethe]

Just to be clear, you are okay with a ~50% chance of having your shield permanently destroyed if you ever try to use it for a Shield Block?

[NA Palm]

Apparently shields are consumables now. :B

[The ShadowShackleton]

I agree this seems like an oversight for now but it is easily remedied as they release more books. How many magical shield options were there in PF1 Core Rulebook?

Certainly not more.

Hopefully there will be more sturdy shield based special items in the future.

[shroudb]

The ShadowShackleton wrote:

I agree this seems like an oversight for now but it is easily remedied as they release more books. How many magical shield options were there in PF1 Core Rulebook?

Certainly not more.

Hopefully there will be more sturdy shield based special items in the future.

I hate this approach.

if the answer is to "powercreep the hell out of the new "property shields" then that just makes all the old "property shields"" obsolete.

At the very least, you should have been able to make the non-sturdy shields out of any material you could afford to.

as an example, a "high-grade adamantine Forge Warden", using the "base shield" for actual shield statistics, and the "magical shield" for actual magical effects.

There's 0 reasons why you simply can't make one as such.

That still leaves more than enough room for "Sturdy" to be the end-all hands-down best for shield block, but doesn't make all the other shields obsolete.

As an example, at level 16 when you can make/buy high-grade adamantine shields, they are:
Hardness 13, HP 52, and BT 26.
as opposed to Sturdy which has, at that level:
Hardness 17, HP 136, and BT 68.

At level 16, one can take 2 hits of 30 damage before breaking, the other can take 6.

(and can continue to grow sturdier and sturdier, while the adamantine is the "Best" non-sturdy you'll ever get)

[The ShadowShackleton]

Not arguing it was a wise strategy. Just saying that is probably the best solution from here.

The special shields are I guess for people who aren’t gong to block at high levels. So no worse than PF1 shields.

Would I have done it differently? Hell yes.

[thenobledrake]

WatersLethe wrote:

Just to be clear, you are okay with a ~50% chance of having your shield permanently destroyed if you ever try to use it for a Shield Block?

Just to be clear, some shields when blocking some monsters.

...and the chance isn't actually 50% because the timing of Shield Block is such that the damage roll has already been made before you choose whether to block or not since "roll dice" is step 1 of figuring out damage and "take damage" is step 4. So you can use the reaction on the hits that won't destroy your shield in one go if that's what you'd rather do than just get a little extra reduction of damage at the cost of your isn't-just-for-defense item.

[Angel Hunter D]

Another rushed part of the core rules. Ugh.

[thenobledrake]

shroudb wrote:

At the very least, you should have been able to make the non-sturdy shields out of any material you could afford to.

...is making a magical shield out of a special material against the rules? did I miss that somehow?

[Zman0]

thenobledrake wrote:

shroudb wrote:

At the very least, you should have been able to make the non-sturdy shields out of any material you could afford to.

...is making a magical shield out of a special material against the rules? did I miss that somehow?

There are no rules for it whatsoever. The magical shields are as presented. It would have been painfully simple to have added those rules.

[thenobledrake]

Zman0 wrote:

There are no rules for it whatsoever. The magical shields are as presented. It would have been painfully simple to have added those rules.

Since you said "no rules for it whatsoever" I had to go looking because I thought I had seen something on the topic.

Here are things I've found:
1. The shields section lists special materials, including the various grades of quality that they can be.
2. The materials section says "An item can be made with no more than one precious material, and only an expert in Crafting can create it." which doesn't exclude shields.
3. That section continues on to say "...creating higher-level items and more powerful magic runes with precious material requires greater purity." which implies combining a higher-grade material with higher-level item type.
4. There is a sub-section called "Crafting with Precious Materials" which says "Low-grade items can be used in the creation of magic items of up to 8th level, and they can hold runes of up to 8th level. Standard-grade items can be used to create magic items of up to 15th level and can hold runes of up to 15th level. High-grade items use the purest form of the precious material, and can be used to Craft magic items of any level holding any runes."

Note how "creation of magic items" and "hold runes" are separate, showing that special materials aren't just limited to usage in magical items that derive their traits from runes - meaning any magic item, so long as there is not a specific exception listed, can be made from special materials.

That same section covers how much of the special material is needed for the creation of a particular item.
5. The crafting rules cover the rest, except for explicitly stating that you just combine the prices of the special material and the magic item you are making out of it to determine the costs.

So "no rules for it whatsoever" seems to be an overstatement... since I appear to have scrounged up enough rules on the topic to get the job done. Would have been nice to get all the relevant info on one page, but hey... do we really ever get that with RPGs?

[NA Palm]

Cool, there are still no rules on what the hardness/hp would be for a specific magic shield made of a specific material.