Guys, I was reading the Core Rulebook and the Bestiary and I found out something Paizo might want to adress regarding the Mount ability...
So, as per the rules, the Horse would be the ONLY rideable creature, since you can only ride creatures with the Mount ability (at least, riding them smoothly). There is literally no other creature I could find that has the Mount ability.
Further reading of the Bestiary made me learn that creatures with the Buck ability are meant to be mounts (for example, Goblin Dog and Riding Dog), but they lack any mention of the Mount special ability, as the horse does.
I think it woud have been wise to actually include the Mount special ability in the statblock of creatures that are actually meant to be mounted, or at least, make it so players can train some animals to serve as mounts. I mean, the Champion gets the ability to pick its own mount companion but in the end if he wants to ride something, it has to be a Horse...
It's future proofing to allow for other mounts to be introduced in future books.
The goblin dog thing is because they can be mounts, its just a special ability of the person riding it, not the animal (Goblins). The way that ability is written though will probably get errata'd or FAQ'd though.
Also, as I understand it, you can mount anything bigger than you, it just takes a bunch more penalties. You can definitely ride any animal companion bigger than you (by a size category); but you take penalties unless it has the Mount special ability.
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Yes, the Horse is currently the only creature with the Mount ability. I suspect that when we get camels and axe beaks and the like, they will have it as well.
The presence or absence of the Mount ability also doesn't prevent you from riding your animal companion, and it's honestly not that bad of a penalty.
You or an ally can ride your animal companion as long as it is at least one size larger than the rider. If it is carrying a rider, the animal companion can use only its land Speed, and it can’t move and Support you on the same turn. However, if your companion has the mount special ability, it’s especially suited for riding and ignores both of these restrictions.
As for Bestiary monsters, it appears none of them have the Mount trait, including the Horse. It appears that the Mount trait only interacts with the Animal Companion rules. For Bestiary monsters, there's no restrictions as long as the creature is large enough to ride, is friendly enough towards you to allow you to ride it, and make your Handle Animal checks or have the Ride feat.
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My problem is also that the Horse is the only Animal Companion that can start being Medium or Large. I mean, the Horse is bigger than the young Bear, wtf?
I really feel everything points out that they don't want players using any other kind of mount unless they're a Goblin.
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My problem is also that the Horse is the only Animal Companion that can start being Medium or Large. I mean, the Horse is bigger than the young Bear, wtf?
I really feel everything points out that they don't want players using any other kind of mount unless they're a Goblin.
You do realize that horses are usually a lot bigger and heavier than almost any kind of bear?
I agree alternate mounts would be preferable, but the size of a horse does make sense
You do realize that horses are usually a lot bigger and heavier than almost any kind of bear?
Tiger and raptor are on small too. And the bears they list range from 130 lbs to 1000. Getting at least some medium animals would have been nice.
I agree alternate mounts would be preferable, but the size of a horse does make sense
I don't think anyone has said otherwise: it's more that all the small sizes don't make the same kind of sense. Your smallest adult polar bears are 5.5' long and 330 lbs and a 8 month old cub is 100 pounds.
You do realize that horses are usually a lot bigger and heavier than almost any kind of bear?Tiger and raptor are on small too. And the bears they list range from 130 lbs to 1000. Getting at least some medium animals would have been nice.
I agree alternate mounts would be preferable, but the size of a horse does make senseI don't think anyone has said otherwise: it's more that all the small sizes don't make the same kind of sense. Your smallest adult polar bears are 5.5' long and 330 lbs and a 8 month old cub is 100 pounds.
Didn’t realize the bear was at small...... indeed that does not make sense........
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The bear only starts small, because it is considered a Young animal companion, a bear cub being around the same size as a gnome seems believable. When it becomes Mature, it becomes medium, and then can grow to large if you pick the right path.
Didn’t realize the bear was at small...... indeed that does not make sense........You do realize that horses are usually a lot bigger and heavier than almost any kind of bear?Tiger and raptor are on small too. And the bears they list range from 130 lbs to 1000. Getting at least some medium animals would have been nice.
I agree alternate mounts would be preferable, but the size of a horse does make senseI don't think anyone has said otherwise: it's more that all the small sizes don't make the same kind of sense. Your smallest adult polar bears are 5.5' long and 330 lbs and a 8 month old cub is 100 pounds.
Flashbacks to first edition where this was the case forever and only got fixed in 2017!
Admittedly, it was this (and not the finicky rules for mounted combat) that made me avoid mounts in PF1. If you're a medium creature, you were basically stuck with a horse or camel unless you delved into numerous companion books which came out later, and it still felt fairly limited compared to the various types of familiars and animal companions out there. Sometimes humans/elves/dwarves/etc want a giant spider/dinosaur/great bear mount! Hopefully more options for this will arise at least by the time of the APG/bestiary2.
I think the main thing about the mount trait is that it prevents the mounted companion from using their alternate speed while being ridden. This means that Rangers can't get a fly speed by riding their bird companion, for example.
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The bear only starts small, because it is considered a Young animal companion
I know, which is WHY I pointed out an 8 month old polar bear cub is 100 pounds... The thing is, mature only ups the size one so every bear and tiger in the world that's an animal companion is a runt that only grows to medium... Unless of course, they become savage: somehow nimble large cats do not exist.
So if one used Bonded Animal,Train Animal,or Inveigle to tame a Giant Bat or Wasp, could you ride them while they are flying,or is there a rule that prevents this?
A Wasp would be cool, because you could feed it sugar or molasses, and hunt alongside it with a Daze cantrip or poison dart blowgun, and help your girl spawn new wasps with their Implant Eggs ability.
Just in case people are interesting in random facts about horses.
840lbs to 2200lbs for an adult horse :P
So if one used Bonded Animal,Train Animal,or Inveigle to tame a Giant Bat or Wasp, could you ride them while they are flying,or is there a rule that prevents this?
A Wasp would be cool, because you could feed it sugar or molasses, and hunt alongside it with a Daze cantrip or poison dart blowgun, and help your girl spawn new wasps with their Implant Eggs ability.
No - If it is being ridden, it cannot use the Fly speed UNLESS it has the Mount ability. That is why I mentioned that Mount allows you to use speeds other than land. While the rule below references Animal Companions specifically, it would be unexpected if it didn't apply to other animals
"If it is carrying arider, the animal companion can use only its land Speed ... the mount special ability ... ignores both of these restrictions" p214
I guess it applies,though I would like to be certain.
To sidestep this issue somewhat,a flying animal could carry a character, without the character being a rider.
Call it an air chariot or cloud carriage.
Good for overland travel, not so good for combat.
I'm seeing a culture of nomadic gnomes with wasp companions, tiny ones as familiars, medium ones and larger as transportation.
They live in paper hives, magically treated to be fire resistant,and all of their weapons are envenomed.
Back closer to topic, get a climbing harness and let your animal companion carry you by it to avoid the riding restrictions.
Ditch animal companion to get a bonded animal of any size.
The downside,a bonded animal will not scale with you, so it will eventually get shot out from under you.
Finally, reskin a horse to be another animal.
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(all weights reference males)
Light Horse (think Light cav/Mongol horse archer) weight 880 - 1,100 lbs
Brown bears weight 440 - 1,200 lbs
Bengal Tiger weight 440 - 660 lbs
Draft Horse (wagon puller) about 1,600 - 2,200 lbs (Some hvy cav units will use draft horses but the normal medieval heavy cav were likely closer to light horse around 1,100 - 1,200 lbs)You are not the only one able to post random facts :)
Laran, thanks for these, but to my american eyes the weights don't mean much without conversion. I went ahead and did the maths for those of us who need it.
Nifty
While the rule below references Animal Companions specifically, it would be unexpected if it didn't apply to other animals
I think that's a pretty big assumption. The rule is in the animal companion section and specifically only mentions animal companions. Even in the glossary the mount trait describes itself as giving bonuses to animal companions.
As written it appears that you can fly on a mount if that mount isn't an animal companion just fine.
That might not be the intention, but it seems strange to put the rules in the animal companion section and specifically call out animal companions multiple times if they're meant to be a general rule.
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Well, a trained animal comes with all the downsides associated with them, like not scaling at all and having to be commanded on a 1:1 action basis and needing a feat to not roll checks every time you want to move.
I agree it's a little odd, but no odder than, say, a trained horse being able to move faster in an encounter than a horse companion and that's pretty clear in the rules too.
Well, a trained animal comes with all the downsides associated with them, like not scaling at all and having to be commanded on a 1:1 action basis and needing a feat to not roll checks every time you want to move.
I agree it's a little odd, but no odder than, say, a trained horse being able to move faster in an encounter than a horse companion and that's pretty clear in the rules too.
This may be tied to stacking abilities, as in not wanting somebody to have a flying mount w/ an animal companion's action economy (et al) as that might be too powerful. It is a 20th level Champion feat after all. In PF1, flying companions were quite strong, even w/ flight being ubiquitous at later levels. With transport spells mostly bumped up a level, weakened, and/or shortened in duration the perpetual flight of a mount becomes that much stronger.
I do wonder the mechanics of an intelligent mount like a Pegasus, since it wouldn't be a minion and would have its own agenda & actions it'd want to take (even if helpful). Mechanically, is it carrying you or are you mounted on it?
Well, a trained animal comes with all the downsides associated with them, like not scaling at all and having to be commanded on a 1:1 action basis and needing a feat to not roll checks every time you want to move.
I agree it's a little odd, but no odder than, say, a trained horse being able to move faster in an encounter than a horse companion and that's pretty clear in the rules too.
This may be tied to stacking abilities, as in not wanting somebody to have a flying mount w/ an animal companion's action economy (et al) as that might be too powerful. It is a 20th level Champion feat after all. In PF1, flying companions were quite strong, even w/ flight being ubiquitous at later levels. With transport spells mostly bumped up a level, weakened, and/or shortened in duration the perpetual flight of a mount becomes that much stronger.
I do wonder the mechanics of an intelligent mount like a Pegasus, since it wouldn't be a minion and would have its own agenda & actions it'd want to take (even if helpful). Mechanically, is it carrying you or are you mounted on it?
I'd say you are mounted on it for the purpose of sharing a multiple attack penalty, and I'd probably have you two act subsequently for initiative for simplicity (perhaps having to take the lower of your two rolls, since you would need to sync up) but the Pegasus would act be taking its own turn as a GMPC.
This would be pretty powerful, but frankly that's always a danger when you add more characters to a party.
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it seems strange to put the rules in the animal companion section and specifically call out animal companions multiple times if they're meant to be a general rule.
“It seems strange to put that rule there” could just about be the motto of Pathfinder 2E.
My preference for this issue would be a downtime activity for Nature that grants an animal the mount ability. Horses shouldn’t even have jr by default, though horses sold for riding would generally already be trained.
it seems strange to put the rules in the animal companion section and specifically call out animal companions multiple times if they're meant to be a general rule.“It seems strange to put that rule there” could just about be the motto of Pathfinder 2E.
My preference for this issue would be a downtime activity for Nature that grants an animal the mount ability. Horses shouldn’t even have jr by default, though horses sold for riding would generally already be trained.
I like this idea. After all, what creature in the wild will let you climb on it and ride it anyway? Horses are bred for tolerating it (and have ways of declining your request), but otherwise you have to somehow get it applied to your prospective mount, whether wolf, goblin dog, or megaturtle.