Build question - Dual Wielding


Advice


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Hello all!

I have a player who is interested in a dual-wielding barbarian, and I was wondering if there are any good suggestions out there for a solid class path for this concept.

My sense is that maybe the base should be a fighter, then MC into Barbarian.

Thanks for any responses!

Liberty's Edge

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Going straight Barbarian, multiclassing into Fighter, then grabbing Double Slice makes for one of the highest DPR builds in the game (specifically, I believe to get as high as possible you go Giant Totem and dual wield oversized, non-agile, weapons).

I'd definitely do this as a Half Orc with two necksplitters, because that sounds super neat and mechanically powerful to boot.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Going straight Barbarian, multiclassing into Fighter, then grabbing Double Slice makes for one of the highest DPR builds in the game (specifically, I believe to get as high as possible you go Giant Totem and dual wield oversized, non-agile, weapons).

If you go giant instinct, you should talk to your GM beforehand so that they can decide how you get a second weapon, as the class feature only grants one weapon initially.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Another option is barbarian with Ranger Dedication and Twin Takedown. It's a little better for action economy (single action vs. two actions for Double Slice), but requires a bit more set up (must use an action to designate your prey or switch to a different target).


Dragonchess Player wrote:
Another option is barbarian with Ranger Dedication and Twin Takedown. It's a little better for action economy (single action vs. two actions for Double Slice), but requires a bit more set up (must use an action to designate your prey or switch to a different target).

It's a trade off of accuracy penalties. Double Slice makes both attacks at -2/-2, assuming we're not using Agile weapons. Twin Attack makes them at +0/-5. There's also Twin Feint (Rogue) that goes at +0/-3, assuming the target was not already flat-footed against you or otherwise suffering a circumstance penalty to AC.


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Yes, Rogues Rangers and Fighters now all get cool and distinct dual wield options. Great stuff!


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+1 to Fighter MC, though I wonder if wielding an agile weapon in one hand is worth it. Less rage damage on Strike 2, but you don't take that painful -2 to each attack either.


Edge93 wrote:
+1 to Fighter MC, though I wonder if wielding an agile weapon in one hand is worth it. Less rage damage on Strike 2, but you don't take that painful -2 to each attack either.

Making contact > milking damage totals... typically, at least.

You'll gain 10% hit on two attacks by wielding an Agile off-hand.
You'll give up 9 damage, assuming Giant instinct.

Is 9 damage so tempting that you'll give up the hits and the potential crits? No. No, it's definitely not. G'head and wield that agile off-hand if you want the math. G'head and wield whatever you want if you want the cool factor.


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Thanks all for the assistance, much appreciated!

An ancillary question, I wonder if just making Dual Slice available to the Barbarian as a class feat, would totally mess up the balance? This I am not real sure about, as I haven't gone as far as some of you into the rules.

Thanks!

Liberty's Edge

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Elorebaen wrote:

Thanks all for the assistance, much appreciated!

An ancillary question, I wonder if just making Dual Slice available to the Barbarian as a class feat, would totally mess up the balance? This I am not real sure about, as I haven't gone as far as some of you into the rules.

Thanks!

I'd advise not making changes like this until you're much more familiar with the system. They might be fine...or not. It really depends on a lot of factors and with the game so recently out, even those who've done the most math probably don't understand them all.


Greg.Everham wrote:


It's a trade off of accuracy penalties. Double Slice makes both attacks at -2/-2, assuming we're not using Agile weapons. Twin Attack makes them at +0/-5. There's also Twin Feint (Rogue) that goes at +0/-3, assuming the target was not already flat-footed against you or otherwise suffering a circumstance penalty to AC.

Building my character and confused why Double Slice makes both attacks -2/-2.

Double Slice Two Actions
You lash out at your foe with both weapons. Make two Strikes, one with each of your two melee weapons, each using your current multiple attack penalty. Both Strikes must have the same target. If the second Strike is made with a weapon that doesn’t have the agile trait, it takes a –2 penalty.

The wording of the above (copy pasted from AoN) says only if the second attack does not have agile trait it takes a -2. So it should be 0/-2 for double slice. Am I missing something?


Your understanding is correct, the -2 penalty only potentially applies to the second swing.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Going straight Barbarian, multiclassing into Fighter, then grabbing Double Slice makes for one of the highest DPR builds in the game (specifically, I believe to get as high as possible you go Giant Totem and dual wield oversized, non-agile, weapons).

I'd definitely do this as a Half Orc with two necksplitters, because that sounds super neat and mechanically powerful to boot.

Have high doubts of this DPR claim. The -2 from not using an agile weapon cannot be easily made up with a damage boost. It'd have to be like +12 damage to be even worth considering taking a voluntary -2. DPR of this build is probably ok, but doubt higher than a pure Fighter/Ranger using TWF normally.

Liberty's Edge

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You are entirely correct. The attack routine for two non-Agile weapons with Double Slice is -0/-2.

ChibiNyan wrote:
Have high doubts of this DPR claim. The -2 from not using an agile weapon cannot be easily made up with a damage boost. It'd have to be like +12 damage to be even worth considering taking a voluntary -2. DPR of this build is probably ok, but doubt higher than a pure Fighter/Ranger using TWF normally.

The second attack gets a lot more damage if non-agile than agile, though, at least at high levels. Specifically, at 20th level, it'd be a comparison of +34 for 4d8+31+3d6 (59.5 average) vs. +36 for 4d6+22+3d6 (46.5 average) on the Agile one.

Assuming a standard AC of 46, the non-Agile guy will have a DPR of 29.75 while the Agile guy will have a DPR of 27.9. The non-Agile guy gets up to 31.75 if actually using an Orc Necksplitter as I suggested (forceful is a great weapon trait).

The guy with the Agile weapon will benefit a tad more from buffs and pulls ahead of most d8 weapons when there's a +2 or more on both of their to-hit, but the necksplitter always remains ahead.

This is true even at low levels, at 1st we're talking +5 to hit for 1d8+6 (7 with necksplitter), while the Agile weapon is +7 to hit for 1d6+5. Going against AC 17, that first one has a DPR of 5.25 (5.75 necksplitter), while the Agile weapon has a DPR of 5.1.
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Whether it's better than a Ranger or Fighter doing other TWF is a somewhat different matter, but the Barbarian is better off skipping Agile.


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I think the takeaway here is that if you want your character to dual-wield necksplitters, go for it, it'll work fine. Don't worry about the optimizing. What kind of half-orc barbarian does math?


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Elorebaen wrote:

Thanks all for the assistance, much appreciated!

An ancillary question, I wonder if just making Dual Slice available to the Barbarian as a class feat, would totally mess up the balance? This I am not real sure about, as I haven't gone as far as some of you into the rules.

Thanks!

I'd advise not making changes like this until you're much more familiar with the system. They might be fine...or not. It really depends on a lot of factors and with the game so recently out, even those who've done the most math probably don't understand them all.

Makes sense DMW!

Thanks all!!

Liberty's Edge

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Out of curiosity, let's look at the DPR of a flurry Ranger and our two-attack Barbarian (multiclass Fighter), shall we?

The Barbarian's total DPR dual wielding necksplitters is 67.45. She also has Reach and AoO because she's a Giant Instinct Barbarian so why not? If one goes off (and it almost always will, since she can move to set it up as well as making her two attacks) that ups her DPR to 115.15.

The Ranger, meanwhile, attacks six times via Impossible Flurry all at +34 for 4d6+13+3d6 (37.5) for a total damage of 112.5.

So those look pretty comparable, all things considered.


Right, I forgot it only applies to the second strike. I feel like there's a move that does apply it to both. Maybe Twin Takedown?


mavbor wrote:
Greg.Everham wrote:


It's a trade off of accuracy penalties. Double Slice makes both attacks at -2/-2, assuming we're not using Agile weapons. Twin Attack makes them at +0/-5. There's also Twin Feint (Rogue) that goes at +0/-3, assuming the target was not already flat-footed against you or otherwise suffering a circumstance penalty to AC.

Building my character and confused why Double Slice makes both attacks -2/-2.

Double Slice Two Actions
You lash out at your foe with both weapons. Make two Strikes, one with each of your two melee weapons, each using your current multiple attack penalty. Both Strikes must have the same target. If the second Strike is made with a weapon that doesn’t have the agile trait, it takes a –2 penalty.

The wording of the above (copy pasted from AoN) says only if the second attack does not have agile trait it takes a -2. So it should be 0/-2 for double slice. Am I missing something?

You're right!


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Out of curiosity, let's look at the DPR of a flurry Ranger and our two-attack Barbarian (multiclass Fighter), shall we?

The Barbarian's total DPR dual wielding necksplitters is 67.45. She also has Reach and AoO because she's a Giant Instinct Barbarian so why not? If one goes off (and it almost always will, since she can move to set it up as well as making her two attacks) that ups her DPR to 115.15.

The Ranger, meanwhile, attacks six times via Impossible Flurry all at +34 for 4d6+13+3d6 (37.5) for a total damage of 112.5.

So those look pretty comparable, all things considered.

As soon as I saw duel wielding barbarian I instantly thought of a ranger with a barbarian multiclass. Could you synergize a flurry ranger with a barbarian MC layer atop it to get damage in these values? That could be pretty fun and would definitely give you that wild abandon attack feel.


Double Slice
"You lash out at your foe with both weapons. Make two Strikes, one with each of your two melee weapons, each using your current multiple attack penalty."

Does that mean that if the this is the first Strike of the round, both attacks have a 0 penalty?


Perpdepog wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Out of curiosity, let's look at the DPR of a flurry Ranger and our two-attack Barbarian (multiclass Fighter), shall we?

The Barbarian's total DPR dual wielding necksplitters is 67.45. She also has Reach and AoO because she's a Giant Instinct Barbarian so why not? If one goes off (and it almost always will, since she can move to set it up as well as making her two attacks) that ups her DPR to 115.15.

The Ranger, meanwhile, attacks six times via Impossible Flurry all at +34 for 4d6+13+3d6 (37.5) for a total damage of 112.5.

So those look pretty comparable, all things considered.

As soon as I saw duel wielding barbarian I instantly thought of a ranger with a barbarian multiclass. Could you synergize a flurry ranger with a barbarian MC layer atop it to get damage in these values? That could be pretty fun and would definitely give you that wild abandon attack feel.

No.

The increase in Rage damage for Barbarians is too high to match w/ the bonus from Flurry (especially since you have to lose an action every few rounds).
Heck, the first round would be extra awkward if you want both Hunt Prey & Rage, and you're likely losing one as you move. It's clunky.
A Fighter might get closer due to higher Proficiency and not losing actions, but if you want a "Ranger" PC, you could build one pretty easily w/ a Barbarian chassis. You could MC Ranger (or several other classes) for the skills if you want, or even get the flurry. Or even MC Rogue for more skill options & Twin Feint.
A Ranger's practically a Barbarian/Rogue hybrid anyway. :)

That said, the number differences in PF2 will hardly ever be large enough that one is a "Must", and many high DPR builds sacrifice more feats than I'm willing to for the difference. In a Barbarian, often those feats could've given you extraordinary mobility or a potent breath weapon.


Castilliano wrote:
That said, the number differences in PF2 will hardly ever be large enough that one is a "Must", and many high DPR builds sacrifice more feats than I'm willing to for the difference. In a Barbarian, often those feats could've given you extraordinary mobility or a potent breath weapon.

The return of the Bestial Totem/Dragon Totem debate. People always sleep on Barbarian utility...


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Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

Double Slice

"You lash out at your foe with both weapons. Make two Strikes, one with each of your two melee weapons, each using your current multiple attack penalty."

Does that mean that if the this is the first Strike of the round, both attacks have a 0 penalty?

That's correct. Double Slice is an excellent feat for dual-wielding characters.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Maps Subscriber

How does the ranger get to attack 6 times? I thought impossible flurry was a 3 action cost.


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Ellestil wrote:
How does the ranger get to attack 6 times? I thought impossible flurry was a 3 action cost.

Impossible Flurry is 3 actions, but it allows you to make 3 Strikes with each of your weapons. The feat requires you to be wielding two weapons, so 2x3=6 attacks (at maximum MAP for all attacks).

If you're a Flurry Edge Ranger, your maximum MAP on your Hunted target is -2.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Maps Subscriber
Thebazilly wrote:
Ellestil wrote:
How does the ranger get to attack 6 times? I thought impossible flurry was a 3 action cost.

Impossible Flurry is 3 actions, but it allows you to make 3 Strikes with each of your weapons. The feat requires you to be wielding two weapons, so 2x3=6 attacks (at maximum MAP for all attacks).

If you're a Flurry Edge Ranger, your maximum MAP on your Hunted target is -2.

Ah ok now that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.


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Edge93 wrote:
Right, I forgot it only applies to the second strike. I feel like there's a move that does apply it to both. Maybe Twin Takedown?

Double Shot is the -2/-2 move.

Twinned Takedown is normal MAP rules.


Blackest Sheep wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Going straight Barbarian, multiclassing into Fighter, then grabbing Double Slice makes for one of the highest DPR builds in the game (specifically, I believe to get as high as possible you go Giant Totem and dual wield oversized, non-agile, weapons).
If you go giant instinct, you should talk to your GM beforehand so that they can decide how you get a second weapon, as the class feature only grants one weapon initially.

Yeah not going to be legal in PFS. Makes no sense, you get access to only one oversized weapon, feels like a pretty lame way to limit the build...


When he wants a lot of damage: I would go for fighter then mc barbarian. Weapon choice should be pick and light pick. One of the best weapons for a dual wielding fighter.

Does less damage then a fighter/ranger but it's oke.

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