Not at all, most of my characters except wizard, sorcerer, etc. do at least 150-200 DPR by level 11 and a few martial do 250+/300/400. And I play mostly PFS so I'm not even taking about vivisectionist shenanigans.
Quain Martial Artist is a trait that gives +1 damage to unarmed attacks.
Note that Improved Natural Attack feats are monster feats that are not normally allowed for players. Only a few options give this e.g. Ranger Natural Combat Style. Obviously if you are the GM, it's your call.
Captain Morgan wrote:
So this is sort of off topic, but I poked my nose in the 1e forum about a week or two ago and they are still having the "why won't Paizo let martials have nice things" conversation and I didn't have the heart to tell them.
With all the material, martials can be really OP in PF1 now though. Like easy 300-400 DPR at level 11 kind of OP. Makes PF2 fighters and rogues feel like amateurs ;)
After my question on interaction between Morph and Polymorph effects, similar question now but between Dragon Claws and Monk Stances.
Dragon Claws is a morph effect that gives claws dealing 1d4 damage plus 1d6 energy damage (that scales up to 3d6 at 9th). Monk stances e.g. Tiger stance allows you to make claws attack that deal 1d8 slashing damage; are in the brawling group; and have the agile, finesse, nonlethal, and unarmed traits.
Let's imagine you used you focus spell to cast dragon claws, then with your next action you enter the Tiger stance, then strike.
How much damage do you do?
1. 1d8 slashing (dragon claws has no effect)
The last one seems reasonable to me and I don't see anything in the rules that says one way or the other.
Joey Cote wrote:
That would be pretty cool, I really hope you're right!
Joey Cote wrote:
All the problems I listed for "natural attacks" are not specific to the sorcerer. Sure I understand they are not meant to be a primary attack form for the Sorcerer, but the issue is that they are sub-par choices on pretty much every front because of the limitation that feats and other abilities only apply to weapons you are wielding. So it's the same problem for Druids with Wild Morph, Alchemists with Bestial Mutagen, Barbarians with Animal instinct, etc. The only ability that works with unarmed attacks is the Monk's Flurry which you can only take for non-monks as a dedication at 10th level which is really late.
For Draconic sorcerers, it's even worst because their initial focus spell doesn't even synergise with their feats and spells i.e. Bespell Weapon, Magic Weapon making Draconic a pretty poor bloodline choice.
Thanks, that's what I feared. The issue is that Natural Attacks cannot receive any boost like normal weapons can. For example you cannot use Bespell Weapon, Magic Weapon, use poison or Poison Weapon, Energy Mutagen, Twin Takedown, etc. They all apply only to weapons you are wielding making unarmed attacks a trap option in general.
Even more so for a Draconic bloodline Sorcerer who can never enhance his Dragon Claws afaict (Bespell Weapon doesn't work and Magic Fang is on the Primal spells list).
Dragon Claws have the Morph trait and gives you finesse claws that deal 1d4 damage plus 1d6 energy that scales.
Bestial Mutagen has the Polymorph trait gives you a jaw and claws attacks, an item bonus, and scaling damage dice.
You can both be affected by Dragon Claws and Bestial Mutagen, but what happens to the claws?
What do you get?
What does minimum damage mean exactly?Loading the +4 DC seems pretty hard you make unless poison DC always user the Alchemist DC?
Other than that, I mostly like it. Seems really needed to make the Alchemists class viable at all.
Nope, that if you take the barbarian dedication and the animal instinct you get nothing. But sure if you're saying that spending a feat to get nothing is good game design and not worth pointing out, I'm sure you will love the mutagenists' first ability and PF2 is obviously the perfect game for you /s
That'd be a pretty lame excuse tbh, maybe more not enough review and testing.
I'm having a hard time myself finding reasons not to play a gnome for any class. I love their ancestry feats which can give pretty much any class the little push it needs to make it awesome or special. And their ability score boosts fall out well for most classes.
Ah? I found halfling and gnome strength flaw makes them really subpar for all martial classes but rogue. Even alchemist is hard due to bulk.
Blackest Sheep wrote:
Yeah not going to be legal in PFS. Makes no sense, you get access to only one oversized weapon, feels like a pretty lame way to limit the build...
The problem with this is that the DC doesn't really scale up. With the Potent Poisoner feat, you add +4 to the poison DC. The best injury poison you can create is the Purple Worm Venom (item 13):
Purple Worm Venom wrote:
Saving Throw DC 32 Fortitude; Maximum Duration 6 rounds; Stage 1 5d6 poison damage and enfeebled 2 (1 round); Stage 2 6d6 poison damage and enfeebled 2 (1 round); Stage 3 8d6 poison and enfeebled 2 (1 round)
So the DC with Potent Poisoner is 36. An Adult Bronze Dragon (CR 13) Fortitude save is +24 so saves on a 12+ (40%) which is ok but not great. An Ancient Brass Dragon Fort save is +30 so saves on a 6+ (70%) which is pretty crappy. An Ancient Gold Dragon Fort save is +37 so is only poisoned on a 1 (95%). With Powerful Alchemy, it would use your alchemy DC so at level 20, the DC would be 10 + 20 (level) + 6 (Int) + 6 (Master) + 4 (Potent Poisoner) = 46 instead of 36 but it took you one more action to do it. The Ancient Gold Dragon would save on a 9+ (55%). Given the poison damage doesn't scale either, it's probably not worth spending 2 actions to use poison.
So basically, if you build a character to use poison, you will fall behind at higher levels as you will have spent several feats and take dedications for suboptimal results i.e. it's a trap, and poor game design.
Most of the contact poisons (all?) have a pretty long onset time (1-10 minutes) so that's pretty useless.
I'm pretty sure the point is to allow you to apply poison for one action rather than three.
If you aren't an alchemist, poison is pretty expensive and DCs don't scale with level. Even if you are an alchemist, powerful alchemy only works with quick alchemy which costs another action in addition to the action to poison the weapon if you multiclass rogue to take this feat. So 2 actions to have a DC that has any chance to succeed 50% of the time and does nothing if the opponent saves. Pretty underwhelming.
If you only take the rogue feat, one action to add 1d4 damage is extremely weak.
Also it is the only way to get contact (not injury) poisons on weapons.
Yeah I was thinking, cool I can use contact poison as well as they are more potent than injury ones but unfortunately the onset time seems to be a killer e.g. 1 minute for Blightburn Resin for example so that doesn't seem like a viable combat option (I haven't checked all of them).
Doktor Weasel wrote:
So at high levels, the DC will be a bit too easy for your enemies.
There is also Powerful Alchemy which makes the DC scales with your level (so proficiency + int modifier). That and Potent Poisoner (+4 DC) should help poisons be relevant all along.
rayous brightblade wrote:
For example making a greater flametongue handwrap only uses 1 property rune as the other effects aren't property runes and therefore are not limited by the potency rune limit. You could transfer the extra abilities over to the handwraps (giving you +1 greater striking greater flaming handwraps and a +3 sword) and then sell the +3 sword. Now you have greater flaming as a property rune and a level 9 produce flame and a 1/day give all within 10 feet flaming for 1 minute on your handwraps.
I see, clever but I'm not sure that's legal. I guess flametongue could be considered the property rune and it has multiple effects e.g. flamming, produce flamme 1/day, etc. or it could be considered multiple property runes, or only flaming can be transferred.
rayous brightblade wrote:
Sounds like you should transfer over a specific magic weapon's abilities instead (since you can't add property runes to them but you can add fundamental runes).
Sorry I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
Maybe I wasn't clear but you could get a Property rune for your unarmed attacks by buying Handwraps of Mighty Blows: add a +1 Potency rune, a greater Striking rune, and then a Property rune but the +1 Potency rune is basically redundant. It only costs 35 gp, but at level 11 the +2 rune that you need to buy if you want to add another property rune costs 935 gp. Bestial mutagen already gives you a +3 item bonus at level 11 so buying the +2 Potency rune is a total Rune tax.
Something else that sucks with Bestial Mutagen is that you can't get Property runes unless you have Potency runes. One of the benefits of Bestial Mutagen is that it gives a scaling item bonus... which is the same benefit than a potency rune gives.
Striking runes don't seem to require Potency runes so it looks like you should be able to only buy the striking runes to increase the damage, but if you want to add some property rune, you need to buy the Potency rune, and at that point you've lost a good part of the benefit of the bestial mutagens...
Yeah they are really going out of their way to nerf natural attacks. I understand it could easily be abused in PF1, but instead of making them balanced, it seems that they are doing everything possible to make them subpar.
Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
Luckily an easy solution are spiked gauntlets, which I'm going for with my alchemist. Bite and claw for bigger damages, gauntlets for style and poisoning.
Yeah but now you need potency and striking runes for your spike gauntlets otherwise you pretty much lose all the benefits of using poison in the first place.
I guess an option is to also just carry a dagger to apply the poison then switch back to claws, but that would do a lot less damage which obviously erodes the benefit of using poison in the first place.
Would handwraps allow to use poison with your claws?
Handwraps of Mighty Blows wrote:
These handwraps have weapon runes etched into them to give yourunarmed attacks the benefts of those runes, making your unarmed attacks work like magic weapons.
Oh wow, I just looked it up, and you're right, that's exactly what the Alchemist needs, such a shame it disappeared.
Poison Touch wrote:
Level 12 though, something earlier would be great...
Maybe we'll get Poisoner’s Gloves in the future as well.
Sure, but that's not my point. My point is that it's another nerf to Bestial Mutagen which really didn't need it. And I personally don't think that nerfing "natural" attacks is the name of the game tbh.
It feels more like an oversight to me and that you should be able to apply poison to claws attacks.
This question is relevant for all "natural" attacks builds e.g. Animal Instinct Barbarian but particularly for Mutagenist Alchemists.
One of the benefits of the Alchemist is that you can craft poisons for free (and poisons are so much better than in PF1 btw). With the Powerful Alchemy feat, you can make poisons scale to your class DC which is really great, and by taking the Potent Poisoner feat, you can add 4 to that DC! Unfortunately Alchemists don't have any way to apply poisons quickly to their weapons, but you could do that in advance. But that's not all, Bestial Mutagen gives you bite and claws but unfortunately it looks like you can't apply poison to your claws.
CRB p.550 wrote:
Injury: An injury poison is activated by applying it to a weapon, and it affects the target of the frst Strike made using the poisoned weapon.
Injury poisons can only be applied to weapons.
CRB p. 278 wrote:
However, unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifcally say so.
(typo on specifcally btw)
And unarmed attacks are not weapons. I can understand why you couldn't apply injury poison to your fists, but it seems counter intuitive that you couldn't apply poison to your claws (I'm sure there are monsters somewhere that have poisoned claws, or used to).
That seems to be another bummer for the Mutagenist Alchemist who can't benefit themselves of around one quarter of the alchemical items they can craft :(
What do you think? Is that an oversight? Is poison not considered an ability therefore we should be able to apply poisons to claws?
You're SERIOUSLY doing Alchemist, and probably all tactical combat wrong if you think throwing 3 bombs a turn is ever a good idea.
Just curious, why do you say that? Do you think firing 3 arrows or attacking 3 times in melee is seriously wrong or because you think alchemist have better use of their 3rd action?
And there's also a couple good choices for mutagens you could combine with it at Level 13 for a more durable melee character (including one from Fall of Plaguestone, which is on the new Archives of Nethys database already).
It atrually looks like the energy mutagen from The Fall of Plaguestone would not work with bestial mutagen (which is the topic of this thread):
Energy Mutagen wrote:
Whenever you score a hit with a melee weapon, add the listed amount of damage of the attuned energy type.
AFAIK unarmed attacks (which is what bestial mutagen provides) are never considered weapons. You'd also not be able to mix the two mutagens together until level 13th anyway which is pretty late.
I think it's just weird wording. The alchemical crafting feat says you can now create alchemical items. No restrictions. And the section on alchemical items doesn't forbid it either.
Good point about not having restriction in the Alchemical Crafting feat. The sentence I quoted is from the alchemical items section though (specifically in mutagens), so I guess one could argue that"specific trumps general" but i think it might just be an oversight or leftover from the playtest again.
mutagenist field discovery wrote:
You can gain the benefit of any mutagen, even if it wasn’t specifically brewed for you.
That implies that mutagen needs to be brewed for a specific person in general, can't craft mutagen in the morning and gives to anyone. However that restrictions only surfaces in the mutagenist field discovery, it seems weird that there is no rule somewhere else saying that. Is it an oversight? There was a restriction clearly spelled out in the playtest but not anymore in the final version. Did they just forget to remove this now obsolete clause from the field discovery?
From the mutagen section (p. 546):
Typically, only alchemists have the expertise to craft mutagens
That implies that if you aren't an alchemist, you can't take the Alchemical Crafting feat to craft mutagens, but you could craft any other alchemical item?The "typically" part is a bit vague, if they wanted this restriction, why not just saying "only alchemists have the expertise to craft mutagens"?
Even if this analysis is totally correct, an Animal Companion is still potentially very good mechanically. Let's look at a Bear. If you're high level your Bear is flanking with you and Supports you, you get +2 to-hit and gain an extra 2d8 damage on every hit you make. That's fantastic.
Good point about the support for bears, for a wolf and other companions it's much less interesting e.g.
Support Benefit wrote:
Your wolf tears tendons with each opening. Until the start of your next turn, your Strikes that damage creatures your wolf threatens give the target a –5-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 minute (–10 on a critical success).
Precise Debilitation wrote:
Would the precision damage only triggers on subsequent attacks or on that attack as well? Would that stack with sneak attack?
I really wish that all these options, especially ancestries will be PFS legal. For PF1 only a few races are legal, some need boon and other are not at all. And having to always check AoN to see whether a feat, archetype, or whatnot is legal or not is a huge pain...
Only caveat to that is the voluntary flaws steps that is dependant on the ancestry as the choice for the 2 flaws and 1 boost may be affected by the ancestry boost and flows.