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Hello all!
I have a player who is interested in a dual-wielding barbarian, and I was wondering if there are any good suggestions out there for a solid class path for this concept.
My sense is that maybe the base should be a fighter, then MC into Barbarian.
Thanks for any responses!
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Going straight Barbarian, multiclassing into Fighter, then grabbing Double Slice makes for one of the highest DPR builds in the game (specifically, I believe to get as high as possible you go Giant Totem and dual wield oversized, non-agile, weapons).
I'd definitely do this as a Half Orc with two necksplitters, because that sounds super neat and mechanically powerful to boot.
Going straight Barbarian, multiclassing into Fighter, then grabbing Double Slice makes for one of the highest DPR builds in the game (specifically, I believe to get as high as possible you go Giant Totem and dual wield oversized, non-agile, weapons).
If you go giant instinct, you should talk to your GM beforehand so that they can decide how you get a second weapon, as the class feature only grants one weapon initially.
Another option is barbarian with Ranger Dedication and Twin Takedown. It's a little better for action economy (single action vs. two actions for Double Slice), but requires a bit more set up (must use an action to designate your prey or switch to a different target).
Yes, Rogues Rangers and Fighters now all get cool and distinct dual wield options. Great stuff!
Thanks all for the assistance, much appreciated!
An ancillary question, I wonder if just making Dual Slice available to the Barbarian as a class feat, would totally mess up the balance? This I am not real sure about, as I haven't gone as far as some of you into the rules.
Thanks!
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Thanks all for the assistance, much appreciated!
An ancillary question, I wonder if just making Dual Slice available to the Barbarian as a class feat, would totally mess up the balance? This I am not real sure about, as I haven't gone as far as some of you into the rules.
Thanks!
I'd advise not making changes like this until you're much more familiar with the system. They might be fine...or not. It really depends on a lot of factors and with the game so recently out, even those who've done the most math probably don't understand them all.
Your understanding is correct, the -2 penalty only potentially applies to the second swing.
Going straight Barbarian, multiclassing into Fighter, then grabbing Double Slice makes for one of the highest DPR builds in the game (specifically, I believe to get as high as possible you go Giant Totem and dual wield oversized, non-agile, weapons).
I'd definitely do this as a Half Orc with two necksplitters, because that sounds super neat and mechanically powerful to boot.
Have high doubts of this DPR claim. The -2 from not using an agile weapon cannot be easily made up with a damage boost. It'd have to be like +12 damage to be even worth considering taking a voluntary -2. DPR of this build is probably ok, but doubt higher than a pure Fighter/Ranger using TWF normally.
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You are entirely correct. The attack routine for two non-Agile weapons with Double Slice is -0/-2.
Have high doubts of this DPR claim. The -2 from not using an agile weapon cannot be easily made up with a damage boost. It'd have to be like +12 damage to be even worth considering taking a voluntary -2. DPR of this build is probably ok, but doubt higher than a pure Fighter/Ranger using TWF normally.
The second attack gets a lot more damage if non-agile than agile, though, at least at high levels. Specifically, at 20th level, it'd be a comparison of +34 for 4d8+31+3d6 (59.5 average) vs. +36 for 4d6+22+3d6 (46.5 average) on the Agile one.
Assuming a standard AC of 46, the non-Agile guy will have a DPR of 29.75 while the Agile guy will have a DPR of 27.9. The non-Agile guy gets up to 31.75 if actually using an Orc Necksplitter as I suggested (forceful is a great weapon trait).
The guy with the Agile weapon will benefit a tad more from buffs and pulls ahead of most d8 weapons when there's a +2 or more on both of their to-hit, but the necksplitter always remains ahead.
This is true even at low levels, at 1st we're talking +5 to hit for 1d8+6 (7 with necksplitter), while the Agile weapon is +7 to hit for 1d6+5. Going against AC 17, that first one has a DPR of 5.25 (5.75 necksplitter), while the Agile weapon has a DPR of 5.1.
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Whether it's better than a Ranger or Fighter doing other TWF is a somewhat different matter, but the Barbarian is better off skipping Agile.
I'd advise not making changes like this until you're much more familiar with the system. They might be fine...or not. It really depends on a lot of factors and with the game so recently out, even those who've done the most math probably don't understand them all.Thanks all for the assistance, much appreciated!
An ancillary question, I wonder if just making Dual Slice available to the Barbarian as a class feat, would totally mess up the balance? This I am not real sure about, as I haven't gone as far as some of you into the rules.
Thanks!
Makes sense DMW!
Thanks all!!
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Out of curiosity, let's look at the DPR of a flurry Ranger and our two-attack Barbarian (multiclass Fighter), shall we?
The Barbarian's total DPR dual wielding necksplitters is 67.45. She also has Reach and AoO because she's a Giant Instinct Barbarian so why not? If one goes off (and it almost always will, since she can move to set it up as well as making her two attacks) that ups her DPR to 115.15.
The Ranger, meanwhile, attacks six times via Impossible Flurry all at +34 for 4d6+13+3d6 (37.5) for a total damage of 112.5.
So those look pretty comparable, all things considered.
Double Slice
"You lash out at your foe with both weapons. Make two Strikes, one with each of your two melee weapons, each using your current multiple attack penalty."
Does that mean that if the this is the first Strike of the round, both attacks have a 0 penalty?
As soon as I saw duel wielding barbarian I instantly thought of a ranger with a barbarian multiclass. Could you synergize a flurry ranger with a barbarian MC layer atop it to get damage in these values? That could be pretty fun and would definitely give you that wild abandon attack feel.Out of curiosity, let's look at the DPR of a flurry Ranger and our two-attack Barbarian (multiclass Fighter), shall we?
The Barbarian's total DPR dual wielding necksplitters is 67.45. She also has Reach and AoO because she's a Giant Instinct Barbarian so why not? If one goes off (and it almost always will, since she can move to set it up as well as making her two attacks) that ups her DPR to 115.15.
The Ranger, meanwhile, attacks six times via Impossible Flurry all at +34 for 4d6+13+3d6 (37.5) for a total damage of 112.5.
So those look pretty comparable, all things considered.
No.
The increase in Rage damage for Barbarians is too high to match w/ the bonus from Flurry (especially since you have to lose an action every few rounds).Heck, the first round would be extra awkward if you want both Hunt Prey & Rage, and you're likely losing one as you move. It's clunky.
A Fighter might get closer due to higher Proficiency and not losing actions, but if you want a "Ranger" PC, you could build one pretty easily w/ a Barbarian chassis. You could MC Ranger (or several other classes) for the skills if you want, or even get the flurry. Or even MC Rogue for more skill options & Twin Feint.
A Ranger's practically a Barbarian/Rogue hybrid anyway. :)
That said, the number differences in PF2 will hardly ever be large enough that one is a "Must", and many high DPR builds sacrifice more feats than I'm willing to for the difference. In a Barbarian, often those feats could've given you extraordinary mobility or a potent breath weapon.
That said, the number differences in PF2 will hardly ever be large enough that one is a "Must", and many high DPR builds sacrifice more feats than I'm willing to for the difference. In a Barbarian, often those feats could've given you extraordinary mobility or a potent breath weapon.
The return of the Bestial Totem/Dragon Totem debate. People always sleep on Barbarian utility...
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Double Slice
"You lash out at your foe with both weapons. Make two Strikes, one with each of your two melee weapons, each using your current multiple attack penalty."Does that mean that if the this is the first Strike of the round, both attacks have a 0 penalty?
That's correct. Double Slice is an excellent feat for dual-wielding characters.
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How does the ranger get to attack 6 times? I thought impossible flurry was a 3 action cost.
Impossible Flurry is 3 actions, but it allows you to make 3 Strikes with each of your weapons. The feat requires you to be wielding two weapons, so 2x3=6 attacks (at maximum MAP for all attacks).
If you're a Flurry Edge Ranger, your maximum MAP on your Hunted target is -2.
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How does the ranger get to attack 6 times? I thought impossible flurry was a 3 action cost.Impossible Flurry is 3 actions, but it allows you to make 3 Strikes with each of your weapons. The feat requires you to be wielding two weapons, so 2x3=6 attacks (at maximum MAP for all attacks).
If you're a Flurry Edge Ranger, your maximum MAP on your Hunted target is -2.
Ah ok now that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
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Right, I forgot it only applies to the second strike. I feel like there's a move that does apply it to both. Maybe Twin Takedown?
Double Shot is the -2/-2 move.
Twinned Takedown is normal MAP rules.
Going straight Barbarian, multiclassing into Fighter, then grabbing Double Slice makes for one of the highest DPR builds in the game (specifically, I believe to get as high as possible you go Giant Totem and dual wield oversized, non-agile, weapons).If you go giant instinct, you should talk to your GM beforehand so that they can decide how you get a second weapon, as the class feature only grants one weapon initially.
Yeah not going to be legal in PFS. Makes no sense, you get access to only one oversized weapon, feels like a pretty lame way to limit the build...
In non-PFS games, what exactly is stopping you from taking Crafting and making a copy of your one large weapon? Or commissioning one to be made?
Last I checked, getting access to something didn't mean one single instance of that thing. That wouldn't make much sense.
Going straight Barbarian, multiclassing into Fighter, then grabbing Double Slice makes for one of the highest DPR builds in the game (specifically, I believe to get as high as possible you go Giant Totem and dual wield oversized, non-agile, weapons).If you go giant instinct, you should talk to your GM beforehand so that they can decide how you get a second weapon, as the class feature only grants one weapon initially.
You can just buy it. It will reduce a little from your starting gold, but you can compromise from the get go (cheaper weapon) and buy your main option after the first few adventures.