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tnx! where can I get general rule?????hi all, i am newbie.if i can't take a win under monster card - this card shuffle in location?Tap your green mana and summon a Pikachu? I assume this is some kind of card game question instead of a PF2 question. ;)
If it's about the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, the best bet for an answer would be to ask the question in the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game subforum.
A statement meant to clear that spellstrike does not work with message ( I know that magus is still on test though ) will definitely help.
It is, I'd say, obvious that it wasn't Paizo intent to let spellstrike work that way ( an exploit to trigger sustain steel ), but by raw it's currently possible.
If such a statement does come out, it only makes spellstrike MUCH, MUCH worse IMO. Message is the only thing that makes it salvageable IMO.
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Can we get clarification about Battle Forms with these specific questions?
Can we use our own modifier if it is lower than the modifier granted by the spell? This refers to using Wild Shape when your modifier is equal or less than to the granted modifier to get the +2 status bonus.
If we use our own modifier, do we apply our Item Bonus if we have Handwraps? The Polymorph trait says you can only modify stats with Circumstance and Status bonuses, but people believe using your own modifier means you are not using a "special statistic" from the spell.
Can we get clarification about Battle Forms with these specific questions?
Can we use our own modifier if it is lower than the modifier granted by the spell? This refers to using Wild Shape when your modifier is equal or less than to the granted modifier to get the +2 status bonus.
If we use our own modifier, do we apply our Item Bonus if we have Handwraps? The Polymorph trait says you can only modify stats with Circumstance and Status bonuses, but people believe using your own modifier means you are not using a "special statistic" from the spell.
To be clear, Cordell is referring to the "attack modifier" for wild shape's natural attacks.
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Can we get clarification about Battle Forms with these specific questions?
Can we use our own modifier if it is lower than the modifier granted by the spell? This refers to using Wild Shape when your modifier is equal or less than to the granted modifier to get the +2 status bonus.
If we use our own modifier, do we apply our Item Bonus if we have Handwraps? The Polymorph trait says you can only modify stats with Circumstance and Status bonuses, but people believe using your own modifier means you are not using a "special statistic" from the spell.
A small addition ( if I got it right ): The intent would be to compare the attack bonus of the wild shape druid with any other combatant class ( which includes fighters and other combatants ).
By using either the +2 status bonus and item bonus ( handwraps of might potency runes ) the class will get a higher bonus than any other hybrid class ( warpriest, battle oracle, etc... ) as well as any other non fighter combatant class ( Champion, Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Swashbuckler, etc... ).
Is this the correct interpretation?
Is a shapeshifter druid ( wild order druid using the wild shape spell ) meant to be a way better combatant not only than their counterpart hybrid classes ( ex the warpriest ) but also than pure combatant classes?
While that is the end goal I am asking purely in a rules point of view. I should have added this question as well:
When attacking with an attack granted by a Battle From, do any runes from Handwraps that can apply to those attacks apply?
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If such a statement does come out, it only makes spellstrike MUCH, MUCH worse IMO. Message is the only thing that makes it salvageable IMO.
While I agree that it makes it functionally useful it does so in the same way that the Halo Battle Rifle Reload-Melee-Cancel exploit gave you 2x magazine capacity. It's cool, it helps make the option more competitive but it's very clearly a "bug" and unintended consequence.
The feature needs work and TBH I think it should just be scrapped completely in its current form so I'm not sure rewording things is even going to be required at the end of the day.
By using either the +2 status bonus and item bonus ( handwraps of might potency runes ) the class will get a higher bonus than any other hybrid class ( warpriest, battle oracle, etc... ) as well as any other non fighter combatant class ( Champion, Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Swashbuckler, etc... ).
Is this the correct interpretation?
I think that it is rather disingenuous to say that a wildshaped druid is better than those classes solely due to attack bonus. Nearly every one of those classes relies on things other than attack bonus to be effective, things like rage and sneak attack, that the wildshaped druids simply won't have.
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By using either the +2 status bonus and item bonus ( handwraps of might potency runes ) the class will get a higher bonus than any other hybrid class ( warpriest, battle oracle, etc... ) as well as any other non fighter combatant class ( Champion, Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Swashbuckler, etc... ).
This second part isn't true. Or, at least, isn't true most of the time.
It's true very specifically at 3rd-4th level and 11th-12th level, and only by +1, because at 5th and 13th martials pull ahead in Proficiency, making up for the +2. Meanwhile, due to starting with a max Str of 16, they're behind martials at 1st-2nd, 10th, 13th-14th, and 20th. They're equal at the other levels (5th-9th and 15th-19th).
So they're ahead for 4 levels, and behind for 6. That doesn't sound like they're actually ahead even ignoring Ravingdork's well considered point about the other benefits martials get that the Wild Druid just doesn't.
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Heroism also doesn't prevent you from casting other spells. Wild Shape does, thus eliminating a lot of the advantages of being a caster.
And I think a combative Warpriest absolutely would use their spells on Heroism. I mean, if attacking with weapons is their whole schtick, they pretty much need to to be effective, and by 17th they have enough spells slots to use the 6th level version every fight and the 9th level version when it matters.
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My questions would apply to any Battle Forms, not just the Druid. Clerics have Righteous Might for example, and this could affect that spell as well.
The disagreement is about whether or not one can apply Item Bonuses from Handwraps to Unarmed Strikes granted by a Battle Form when they choose to use their own Attack Modifier, rather than the granted Attack Modifier. I just was asking other questions along side them for more information on Battle Forms.
I will post the three again for simplicity, and worded better:
Can we use our own attack modifier if it is lower than the attack modifier granted by the spell? Would PCs using Wild Shape take the +2 Status Bonus into account when determining if they can use their own Attack Modifier?
If we use our own modifier, do we apply our Item Bonus if we have Handwraps? Further, would we apply Item Bonuses from our Weapon if we use Righteous Might, and have the same weapon in hand? And can we apply them if the weapon is different? The Polymorph trait says you can only modify stats with Circumstance and Status bonuses, but some believe using your own modifier means you are not using a "special statistic" from the spell.
If we have handwraps (or for Righteous Might, our favored weapon) do we apply any runes that might apply to Strikes granted by a battle form, like Striking, Flaming or Vorpal?
Can we use our own attack modifier if it is lower than the attack modifier granted by the spell? Would PCs using Wild Shape take the +2 Status Bonus into account when determining if they can use their own Attack Modifier?
Animal Form says:
"If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead."
So the answer to your first question is no.
WildShape the Focus Spell says:
"When you choose to use your own attack modifier while polymorphed instead of the form's default attack modifier, you gain a +2 status bonus to your attack rolls."
The order of these statments is implicitly defined, because the second statement triggers off the first. So technically no you can't consider the status bonus when calculating your own attack modifier
If we use our own modifier, do we apply our Item Bonus if we have Handwraps? Further, would we apply Item Bonuses from our Weapon if we use Righteous Might, and have the same weapon in hand? And can we apply them if the weapon is different? The Polymorph trait says you can only modify stats with Circumstance and Status bonuses, but some believe using your own modifier means you are not using a "special statistic" from the spell.If we have handwraps (or for Righteous Might, our favored weapon) do we apply any runes that might apply to Strikes granted by a battle form, like Striking, Flaming or Vorpal?
That is a complex question. The answer is all your modifiers apply exactly once.
Ability Bonus, Proficiency Bonus, Item Bonus apply when working out your attack modifier.
Circumstance Bonus, Status Bonus, any other bonuses or penalties apply after when you are using the Battle Form.
The difference between these lists is that the second are all of a temporary nature, the first are more permanent. This is why the rule is as it is for Battle Forms.
Righteous Might is typically talking about a specific weapon but that can be fist and therefore unarmed for certain deities. Runes on the weapon are constant abilities and so apply if they can. However its too late to add an item bonus at this point (because you have already counted it before and it is explicitly banned in the battle form rules).
Additional Damage does add because Mark said it was not a bonus and made it additional to the modifer calculation.
If you want a more detailed explanation - have a look at my attempt here.
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Yeah? Well I deny your reality and substitute my own!
:P
The order of these statments is implicitly defined, because the second statement triggers off the first.
This statement makes no sense. What "order"? Triggers how?
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The order of these statments is implicitly defined, because the second statement triggers off the first.This statement makes no sense. What "order"? Triggers how?
It is a fine point of language, so I accept that some people won't see it or will disagree.
However the term "when you choose to use" must mean that is is valid to use.
The previous rule says "If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead."
So how can you choose to use it if it is not higher?
It may well be that this was not intended by the designers. I don't want it to be the case. I don't think its is particular fair or a good idea. Because it creates all sorts of little arbitrary discontinuities in practice. I hope and expect people will ignore it but that is what it says.
Hello,
Long-time player, first-time poster & GM here.
The Dragon Disciple archetype requires that "you are a kobold with the dragonscaled or spellscaled heritage, a dragon instinct barbarian, or a draconic bloodline sorcerer" to access it. Does anyone know if it is intended for a character to stick to a common dragon type when selecting this archetype?
For example, if a black-scaled kobold took the Dragon Disciple dedication feat, would they need to select "black dragon"? Or could they choose whatever dragon type they like, essentially becoming two different types of dragon (one black, and one their second selection)?
Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks
Hello! I have a question about the 3-action heal spell. The 1 and 2 action versions you choose one target. The 3-action version says 'targets all living creatures and undead in a 30-ft emanation. will the 3-action spell heal living AND harm undead both?
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Question: What are Skill Actions? Are "Skill Actions" only the actions listed in Table 4-1 of the Core Rule Book?
No, they're any action that uses a Skill. So Battle Medicine and Bon Mot 100% qualify as Skill Actions.
Activities would also qualify if they contain such actions, though there aren't many to be had in Oracle anyway.
The Dragon Disciple archetype requires that "you are a kobold with the dragonscaled or spellscaled heritage, a dragon instinct barbarian, or a draconic bloodline sorcerer" to access it. Does anyone know if it is intended for a character to stick to a common dragon type when selecting this archetype?
I believe you can pick any kind of dragon you like, without meaningful restriction.
Hello! I have a question about the 3-action heal spell. The 1 and 2 action versions you choose one target. The 3-action version says 'targets all living creatures and undead in a 30-ft emanation. will the 3-action spell heal living AND harm undead both?
Yes, it hits both, healing the living and harming the undead (the undead get a Save as usual).
Its my understanding that the dragons have to match.
Question the Lost Omens World Guide has an 8th Level Archetype feat for the Hellknight Arminger called Arminger's Mobility.
One of the prerequisites is Expert in Heavy Armor. I for the life of me can't figure out how you get this by 8th level. The only scenario I see is Champion with Armor Expertise at 7th. Hellknights are supposed to be Lawful and could in theory be LG, but a Paladin Hellknight seems to be the only way?
It seems massively out of character for that to be the only way to get it before 11th level when the Fighter class gets Armor Expertise.
I was wondering if the Hellknight Dedication Archetype feat from the Lost Omens World Guide (level 6 feat) was supposed to give this and be the prerequisite but was inadvertently left out? Possible errata?
An incorporeal creature or object has no physical form. It can pass through solid objects, including walls. When inside an object, an incorporeal creature can’t perceive, attack, or interact with anything outside the object, and if it starts its turn in an object, it is slowed 1. Corporeal creatures can pass through an incorporeal creature, but they can’t end their movement in its space.
An incorporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against physical creatures or objects—only against incorporeal ones—unless those objects have the ghost touch property rune. Likewise, a corporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against incorporeal creatures or objects.
Incorporeal creatures usually have immunity to effects or conditions that require a physical body, like disease, poison, and precision damage. They usually have resistance against all damage (except force damage and damage from Strikes with the ghost touch property rune), with double the resistance against non-magical damage.
I would appreciate on-stream, or otherwise, any clarification on this still existing issue.
The way the above checks out players and incorporeal creatures cannot even attempt Strength-based checks, meaning STR-based melee strikes.
However, you've got this little interesting tidbit:
Physical Damage
...
Ghosts and other incorporeal creatures have a high resistance to physical attacks that aren’t magical (attacks that lack the magical trait). Furthermore, most incorporeal creatures have additional, though lower, resistance to magical physical damage (such as damage dealt from a mace with the magic trait) and most other damage types.
Emphasis mine. How would someone make an attack with said mace against an incorporeal creature if they're not allowed to even attempt STR-based checks, i.e. Strike? Maces do not have the finesse trait.
Further, why are finesse attacks somehow able to hit an incorporeal? Why if I, say, slap the rapier (a weapon with the finesse trait) against a ghost it won't hit, but if I whip it around gracefully I can somehow finagle it to hit?
That and a huge bevy of other issues exist with this trait.
What I think the developers actually meant:
1) you cannot attempt STR-based skill checks against incorporeal creatures
1a) likewise, an incorporeal creature cannot attempt afforementioned checks against you
2) incorporeal creatures do not need to attempt flight checks each round to stay aloft/hover
3) incorporeal creatures are not affected by gravity and other natural forces which require a physical body
4) incorporeal creatures are not affected by spells which require it to have a physical body
5) in the cases where a spell specifies "mind" as the target of a spell, an incorporeal can be targeted
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Physical Damage
...
Ghosts and other incorporeal creatures have a high resistance to physical attacks that aren’t magical (attacks that lack the magical trait). Furthermore, most incorporeal creatures have additional, though lower, resistance to magical physical damage (such as damage dealt from a mace with the magic trait) and most other damage types.
Emphasis mine. How would someone make an attack with said mace against an incorporeal creature if they're not allowed to even attempt STR-based checks, i.e. Strike? Maces do not have the finesse trait.
Further, why are finesse attacks somehow able to hit an incorporeal? Why if I,...
I think the writers missed that a strike is a STR check. Its clearly their intention for PCs to hit ghosts with magical weapons.
I think the writers missed that a strike is a STR check. Its clearly their intention for PCs to hit ghosts with magical weapons.
Physical Damage
...
Ghosts and other incorporeal creatures have a high resistance to physical attacks that aren’t magical (attacks that lack the magical trait). Furthermore, most incorporeal creatures have additional, though lower, resistance to magical physical damage (such as damage dealt from a mace with the magic trait) and most other damage types.
Emphasis mine. How would someone make an attack with said mace against an incorporeal creature if they're not allowed to even attempt STR-based checks, i.e. Strike? Maces do not have the finesse trait.
Further, why are finesse attacks somehow able to hit an incorporeal? Why if I,...
Not Strikes but some melee Strikes. Finesse melee and ranged weapons are Dex Strikes.
In the case of the mace, you can use Hand of the Apprentice to attack with it using a spell attack roll.
I think the writers missed that a strike is a STR check. Its clearly their intention for PCs to hit ghosts with magical weapons.
Physical Damage
...
Ghosts and other incorporeal creatures have a high resistance to physical attacks that aren’t magical (attacks that lack the magical trait). Furthermore, most incorporeal creatures have additional, though lower, resistance to magical physical damage (such as damage dealt from a mace with the magic trait) and most other damage types.
Emphasis mine. How would someone make an attack with said mace against an incorporeal creature if they're not allowed to even attempt STR-based checks, i.e. Strike? Maces do not have the finesse trait.
Further, why are finesse attacks somehow able to hit an incorporeal? Why if I,...
Not Strikes but some melee Strikes. Finesse melee and ranged weapons are Dex Strikes.
In the case of the mace, you can use Hand of the Apprentice to attack with it using a spell attack roll.
Er, did you miss the part about the mace?
Er, did you miss the part about the mace?
Did you miss the part where Hand of the Apprentice is an attack with a held melee weapon that uses a spell attack? IE, the Wizard is using Int to hit with the mace.
That is totally something that you are adding in, its not in the rule/rule description. It's a very obscure scenario.
That is totally something that you are adding in, its not in the rule/rule description. It's a very obscure scenario.
Hand of the Apprentice
Source Core Rulebook pg. 407
Cast Single Action somatic
Range 500 feet; Targets 1 creature
You hurl a held melee weapon with which you are trained at the target, making a spell attack roll. On a success, you deal the weapon's damage as if you had hit with a melee Strike, but adding your spellcasting ability modifier to damage, rather than your Strength modifier. On a critical success, you deal double damage, and you add the weapon's critical specialization effect. Regardless of the outcome, the weapon flies back to you and returns to your hand.
What exactly did I add? You figure out damage as if it was a melee strike so magical physical damage resistance vs physical damage resistance from a mace is relevant when the question was:
Emphasis mine. How would someone make an attack with said mace against an incorporeal creature if they're not allowed to even attempt STR-based checks, i.e. Strike? Maces do not have the finesse trait.
The answer is Hand of the Apprentice using a mace... An int based spell spell attack, that is not a str based roll, is a way to attack an incorporeal creature with said mace. No matter how niche that is, it means that the example is not an impossible one which is all I have to prove.
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No I don't believe it is what you have to prove. We are supposed to reasonably interpret the rules. The fact that you have found a very odd spot where it is possible, does not prove a point where the rule description is a general example. If the writer were pointing to such an obscure situation they would have spelled it out.
It is clear to me the writers were talking about STR skill checks and did not mean all STR attacks, just those Athletics one. What they were trying to say is you can't grab a ghost.
But yes that is an interpretation.
It is clear to me the writers were talking about STR skill checks and did not mean all STR attacks, just those Athletics one. What they were trying to say is you can't grab a ghost.
I wasn't making any interpretation of STR skill checks vs STR attacks in the rule, just answering the question asked about the mace example: the presence of a mace in the example isn't proof of anything as you can attack with it without Str.
As to intent, I think it'd be to allow attacking it with Str attacks as it seems odd that you can hit onw with a bow or rapier but not a greatsword.
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So we are talking at cross purposes.
Anyway how about, attack with a dagger using STR, but next round attack with the same dagger using DEX?
I can see the rules argument for a difference but intent wise I'd be allowing both to work the same. The general description gives, me at least, enough justification to do that.
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Sequence break, but, I could really use some clarification over Witch Dedication familiars: at the moment it's not clear what, if any, parts of the Witch Class Feature apply to the familiar you get from the Dedication Archetype Feat.
For example: can you feed your familiar scrolls to teach them spells? Do they get 1 (2-1) or 2 (3-1) familiar abilities? Can they learn spells from other witch familiars? Do they return the next day if killed?
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In the core rule book, most of the spellcasting classes were able to substitute material components with other components, such as a cleric using a holy symbol or text as a focus instead of needing the materials.
APG did not include anything like that for the Witch or Oracle. Did I miss something or was this intentional?
I would imagine the Witch could substitute their material component and that action by having the familiar perform a somatic component instead (or wielding their familiar like a sword, obviously) , and the Oracle can do what the Sorcerer does.
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I’ve got a question about skeletal champions. I understand that they’re supposed to keep their intelligence and class levels. My question is: are they supposed to NOW be vulnerable to mental effects? Can you intimidate a skeletal champion?
It seems just wrong. Am I missing something? Skeletons and many other undead have the mindless trait. Skeletal champions do not. What gives?