Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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Field agent need one roll for 8 days than another for last 4 days.
I'm sure you meant to say "A field agent needs one roll for 8 days in a row, then another Earn Income roll for the next 4 days."
Sorry. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. 8 days or 4 days?
Why not one roll for all 12 days?
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Why not one roll for all 12 days?
Earn Income: Earning Income is the most common Downtime activity. If you are using your Downtime for any other purposes, they must be completed first before you attempt your check to Earn Income. For each 8 day unit of Downtime you spend...
A check to Earn Income does not carry beyond the 8-day cycle for which you attempt the check.
Venture-Lieutenant, Spain—Mirande de Ebro
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If your character is a field-commissioned agent (rather than having trained with the Scrolls, Spells, and Swords Pathfinder Schools ), they earn an additional 50% as many days of Downtime, earning 3, 12, and 36 days respectively.
extend days of 8 to 12, no say roll again for 4 day
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Venture-Lieutenant, Spain—Mirande de Ebro
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No first World bard, its the same.
Earn Income: Earning Income is the most common Downtime activity. If you are using your Downtime for any other purposes, they must be completed first before you attempt your check to Earn Income. For each 8 day unit of Downtime you spend...
A check to Earn Income does not carry beyond the 8-day cycle for which you attempt the check.
For most exactly, the entire rule is.
Earn Income: Earning Income is the most common Downtime activity. If you are using your Downtime for any other purposes, they must be completed first before you attempt your check to Earn Income. For each 8 day unit of Downtime you spend (including units where you complete multiple activities, such as spending 7 days retraining and then 1 day Earning Income), you attempt one check to Earn Income, using the result to calculate your total earnings for that block of Downtime. The Task Level of you Earn Income check is equal to your level – 2 (minimum 0) by default (GMs should check Table 10–5: DCs by Level on page 503 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook to calculate the DC), though some boons may allow you to attempt checks against higher-level tasks as a special reward. A check to Earn Income does not carry beyond the 8-day cycle for which you attempt the check.
This is the Rule as well as wrote Robert.
BUT ----After each adventure, your character receives Downtime, which is a measure of their additional time between adventures. A quest grants 2 days of Downtime, a scenario grants 8 days, and a sanctioned Pathfinder Adventure or Adventure Path typically grants 24 days of Downtime. If your character is a field-commissioned agent (rather than having trained with the Scrolls, Spells, and Swords Pathfinder Schools ), they earn an additional 50% as many days of Downtime, earning 3, 12, and 36 days respectively. A character can use Downtime in a variety of ways, including the Crafting, Earn Income, and retraining options in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. Downtime must be spent at the end of the session or it expires; it cannot be stockpiled for later use. (See Downtime.) However, players can spend their Downtime to start or continue an activity such as Crafting an item that requires multiple adventures’ worth of Downtime to complete.
Of course, in Downtime how i write and you point, this say how much downtime you receive.
Earn Income use the days in Downtime, if a Pathfinder has 8 days, use 8 days, if you are a field-commissioned agent has 12 days and use 12 days, and in the core is write.You can continue working at the task on subsequent days without needing to roll again. For each day you spend after the first, you earn the same amount as the first day, up until the task’s completion. The GM determines how long you can work at the task. Most tasks last a week or two, though some can take months or even years.
It is about making the rules easier, it is true that you have to look in many different pages. pages 236,237,503 for core rulebook and 2 pages from guide.
in my sample, i used the 12 days for earn income, but, if i want rentrain, i can use the seven days for rentrain and five for earn income, always remember that i am a field-commissioned agent. but the case is the same, if is for earn income, with 1 die and use the days you want is enough, no is limit to 8 days if you have 12 days.
And sorry if i can´t explain better. English is not my mother tongue, and I understand the structure of the rules because they look alike when I study legislature.
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I believe the conundrum, as debated in (three?) different threads now, is whether you need an 8-day block available for each Earn Income roll, or whether you can use any number of days for Earn Income.
If it's the former, then you'd get two rolls. One for the first 8 days, and a second for the remaining 4 days.
If it's the latter, then you'd get one roll, and you'd have 4 days remaining that you could use for Crafting or other Downtime purposes.
If it's the former, that needs to be *clearly* stated somewhere. As it stands now, it's not.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Spain—Mirande de Ebro
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....
I have a errata.
I don´t read good this point.
A check to Earn Income does not carry beyond the 8-day cycle for which you attempt the check. How said Robert, Earn income do have a limit, yeah.
Then i change my mind, and I give the reason to Robert.
The limit is 8 days, and the rest you can do another Die with 4 days or Craft - 4 days.
Robert is right.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Spain—Mirande de Ebro
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Puts: For each 8 day unit of Downtime you spend (including units where you complete multiple activities, such as spending 7 days retraining and then 1 day Earning Income),
then is logical, if the limits is 8 day, an multiple activities, can do two Earning Income how said Robert, for me, is two rolls,
I thought it was as you said, 1 roll die X number of days, but is 8 days max. Nothing prevents you make another Earing Income...
Other GM from my association who doesn't see the difference between pulling twice and adding or letting him do the 12. but that is further complicate this issue. xD
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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....
I have a errata.
I don´t read good this point.
A check to Earn Income does not carry beyond the 8-day cycle for which you attempt the check. How said Robert, Earn income do have a limit, yeah.
Then i change my mind, and I give the reason to Robert.The limit is 8 days, and the rest you can do another Die with 4 days or Craft - 4 days.
Robert is right.
Wasn't I right?
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I've had this come up and it involves earn income as well.
typically Crafting, Lore, or Performance--to earn money during downtime...
In some cases, the GM might let you use a different skill to Earn Income through specialized work...If you're using a skill other than Crafting, Lore, or Performance, the DC tends to be significantly higher
No where in the guide or under Earn Income does it tell us what we are increasing these DCs by or if we are not allowing additional skills. I've been quoted this section by a player to allow them a check at all if they did not train Craft, Lore, or Performance.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Spain—Mirande de Ebro
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Incendiaeternus,
The DCs is calculate in pag 503, and the skills Craft, Lore or Performance you must be trained for Earn Income. As it happened in the first edition.
I think as the first edition, in a future, will put rules or new classes that allow using other skills to be able to Earn Income, And as my law professor told me when I was studying, how do you intend to learn complex rules if you don't even learn the statements, XD, i mean, I prefer to learn the basic rule, which for the exceptions, I will have time.
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Incendiaeternus,
The DCs is calculate in pag 503, and the skills Craft, Lore or Performance you must be trained for Earn Income. As it happened in the first edition.I think as the first edition, in a future, will put rules or new classes that allow using other skills to be able to Earn Income, And as my law professor told me when I was studying, how do you intend to learn complex rules if you don't even learn the statements, XD, i mean, I prefer to learn the basic rule, which for the exceptions, I will have time.
The issue is right now it's not stated that they are limited, we're making that assumption and players are insisting that they be allowed to use 'better skills' because nothing says they cannot, but we do not have the higher DC checks to allow it.
It's a request for a small clarification.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia
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The player has not made his character correctly and should be audited to check for errors.
That addresses it right there. They have to have a Lore skill from the selection of a background.
This entire thing is easy to clear up. The rules are pretty specific as to what skills are to be used for Earn Income. If the players do not want to use those skills to make their Earn Income check, then they get no income. Put a zero in the box and move on. Case closed.
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The issue is right now it's not stated that they are limited, we're making that assumption and players are insisting that they be allowed to use 'better skills' because nothing says they cannot, but we do not have the higher DC checks to allow it.
It's a request for a small clarification.
The lack of higher DCs is the thing that says they cannot. The p. 236 quote allows DMs discretion to select higher DCs to allow other skills for the roll. The Earn Income section of the guide explicitly defines the DC for Society play. Since the DM does not have the discretion in Society play to assign a "significantly higher" DC, the p. 236 bit about using other skills cannot be applied in Society play.
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Incendiaeternus,
The DCs is calculate in pag 503, and the skills Craft, Lore or Performance you must be trained for Earn Income. As it happened in the first edition.I think as the first edition, in a future, will put rules or new classes that allow using other skills to be able to Earn Income, And as my law professor told me when I was studying, how do you intend to learn complex rules if you don't even learn the statements, XD, i mean, I prefer to learn the basic rule, which for the exceptions, I will have time.
The issue is right now it's not stated that they are limited, we're making that assumption and players are insisting that they be allowed to use 'better skills' because nothing says they cannot, but we do not have the higher DC checks to allow it.
It's a request for a small clarification.
We are not making assumptions. Opt-in GM options have always been "No, unless explicitly stated in the Guide/Campaign Clarifications/Additional Resources."
PFS1 examples: non-Core races as PCs, Herbalism from UW, Afflictions from HA, etc.
I can't just decide that the herbalism rules are legal at my table.
Organized Play Developer
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An easy fix for this would be something like:
EARN INCOME
Determine the number of Downtime days you wish to utilize for Earning Income. Roll one check, and multiply your results by that number of days to determine how much your characters earns.
We specifically didn't use this model because we didn't want players chopping up their Earn Income into e.g. two day blocks and forcing the GM to wait through people making 4 different downtime rolls while the venue is trying to throw them out the door. Since downtime typically occurs during the most time-crunched portion of a given session, we wanted to keep it as quick and streamlined as possible; the result being that when you decide to make an Earn Income check, you apply it to the entire remainder of that earned block of time, whether that be the 1 day left of an 8 day block after 7 days of crafting, or the entirety of the 2 days granted by a quest.
The lack of higher DCs is the thing that says they cannot. The p. 236 quote allows DMs discretion to select higher DCs to allow other skills for the roll. The Earn Income section of the guide explicitly defines the DC for Society play. Since the DM does not have the discretion in Society play to assign a "significantly higher" DC, the p. 236 bit about using other skills cannot be applied in Society play.The issue is right now it's not stated that they are limited, we're making that assumption and players are insisting that they be allowed to use 'better skills' because nothing says they cannot, but we do not have the higher DC checks to allow it.
It's a request for a small clarification.
Very much this. The "GM might let you use a different skill" clause falls int the same kind of caveat as the Guide's "though some boons may allow you to attempt checks against higher-level tasks as a special reward".
In this case, when page 236 says "[...]the GM might let you use a different skill to Earn Income [...]" it's not a "person at the table" GM power, it's a "as defined by the program" GM power. Only boons or character abilities that specifically allow you to use a different skill (such as Bargain Hunter allowing you to use Society), override the defaults of Craft, Lore, and Performance.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I very much appreciate the concern about not having GM deal with too many rolls, though if people have more than 8 days, just letting them use their rolled for Earn income for 8-12 days would streamline it a bit.
What I am actually curious about, can you still use any remaining hero points you might have to reroll your earn income check?
I actually hope that the answer is no, since hoarding your hero points to gain a monetary benefit might be a bit kind of missing the point of hero points and create some bad incentives.
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You don't have Hero Points during Downtime, though.
Err, at this point I suppose I should say, "I don't interpret the current wording to allow you use of Hero Points after the adventure has concluded, including during Downtime."
I also think we don't have hero point for downtime but i could see it being the other way.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I very much appreciate the concern about not having GM deal with too many rolls, though if people have more than 8 days, just letting them use their rolled for Earn income for 8-12 days would streamline it a bit.
What I am actually curious about, can you still use any remaining hero points you might have to reroll your earn income check?
I actually hope that the answer is no, since hoarding your hero points to gain a monetary benefit might be a bit kind of missing the point of hero points and create some bad incentives.
I think as a GM it's good to remind people that using hero points to survive empties the whole bucket, but you only need one point in there - so no point in saving up points if there are important checks to reroll.
However, that does highlight that you want to keep one point in reserve if possible for survival. But if you don't get knocked down it's quite likely that you end the scenario with one hero point. You didn't do anything bad for that either. So I actually don't think there's a perverse incentive to have a hero point left over for Earn Income; I think it's a common side effect of not nearly dying.
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Fortune effects (like Hero Points, per p. 467) can't modify downtime activities. Mentioned under Rituals on p. 408 of the Core Rulebook, Downtime (Checks) on p. 500,
Thanks for finding this!
I nominate this answer for inclusion in the PFS FAQ. There is a correct answer, but you have to cross-reference at least two sections. No special rule is required but it’s not obvious unless you know exactly what you are looking for.
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Personally I am glad it works that way. I found players often saved their rerolls for the day job in 1st edition and it really gave a bitter taste of lack of teamwork at times.
Though I agree that often it worked the way Lau suggested, it was not uncommon for it to be a conscious choice that always bothered me a bit as a fellow player.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Fortune effects (like Hero Points, per p. 467) can't modify downtime activities. Mentioned under Rituals on p. 408 of the Core Rulebook, Downtime (Checks) on p. 500,
Thank you so much for finding this ^^
Personally I am glad it works that way. I found players often saved their rerolls for the day job in 1st edition and it really gave a bitter taste of lack of teamwork at times.
Though I agree that often it worked the way Lau suggested, it was not uncommon for it to be a conscious choice that always bothered me a bit as a fellow player.
I know what you mean, sometimes this stuff left a bad taste.
Fortune effects (like Hero Points, per p. 467) can't modify downtime activities. Mentioned under Rituals on p. 408 of the Core Rulebook, Downtime (Checks) on p. 500,Thanks for finding this!
I nominate this answer for inclusion in the PFS FAQ. There is a correct answer, but you have to cross-reference at least two sections. No special rule is required but it’s not obvious unless you know exactly what you are looking for.
I very much agree with the suggestion to put this in a FAQ.
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I have hero point(s) left over at the end of an adventure. Can I use a hero point to reroll a check I make during downtime?
No. Hero Points are fortune effects, and Downtime Activities can't be modified by fortune effects.
Reference(s): Hero Points are fortune effects (CRB page 467). Downtime can't be modified by fortune or misfortune effects (CRB page 408).
Commentary: Downtime activities are abstracted as a single roll but represent sustained effort over long periods of time, usually multiple days. Fortune effects represent a sudden turn of good luck at a single point in time and therefore are not usable over the longer periods in which downtime activities occur.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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How are crit successes handled at first level?
I read the task level as 1(level) minus 2 equals -1. We use a min of 0.
On a crit, task level is +1.
Is that +1 on the min 0 or +1 on the original task level of -1.
For my lodge, we are using original task level of -1 so 1st level characters who crit get the same as they would on a success.
Spoke with Tonya at Skalcon. Very Fun Weekend!
She confirmed that the DC of the Task is set and then the modifier for a critical success is added. So how I was interpreting earn income was wrong.
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Another item to note is that the Assurance skill feat has the Fortune tag, so you can't use it for Earn Income or other downtime activities like Crafting. Everybody rolls! This does make Crafting a bit more risky than I'd originally thought since you can't just Assurance your way to a predictable result.
This strikes me as a little odd, as Assurance seems like the opposite of a Fortune effect (I will take a guaranteed mediocre result instead of trusting to the whims of chance) but seems to be intended.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia
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I'm going to have to disagree with your interpretation on fortune effects on Downtime activities. The downtime section in the CRB on pages 500-501 states: Due to the number of typos and errors in the rest of the book, i.e. Mutagist, I do not think that an offhand comment in the Rituals section is sufficient to block out all fortune effects on downtime activities. Until we get a FAQ or other clarification, I have no problem with players using their left over Hero Points for downtime activities.
We've had the clarification. Hero Points cannot be used for Earn Income. If we go by your line of reasoning, then we will be at anything goes which is not conducive to operating a universal campaign.
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I would say that fortune effects, like those provided by Assurance are acceptable, since they provide constant benefits.
The paragraph above does state "MOST" abilities, this implies that there are some that players can use.
Due to the number of typos and errors in the rest of the book, i.e. Mutagist, I do not think that an offhand comment in the Rituals section is sufficient to block out all fortune effects on downtime activities. Until we get a FAQ or other clarification, I have no problem with players using their left over Hero Points for downtime activities.
You give a compelling and persuasive argument for why Assurance could apply to these checks, but it seems like a bait-and-switch to then apply that logic to justify the use of Hero Points which are most definitely not something that provides "constant benefit."
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I really, really dislike the argument that a clarifying statement doesn't count simply because one believes it should be in a different section of the book (or repeated in multiple sections).
This is the argument against arrows not being consumable, simply because it's described outside of the equipment chapter, and I absolutely loathe it.
One of the stated goals of PF2 was to cut down on redundancies. Stating in multiple different chapters that Hero Points can't be used during Downtime, or repeating ad nauseum that arrows are consumable, isn't in line with the editing style of PF2.
Do you have a convincing reason *why* we should ignore what's stated in the rituals section? I don't understand why the onerous is on us to say why it can't be used.
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My stance had been 'Barring evidence to the contrary I am allowing hero point re-rolls during downtime." However the fortune/ritual/downtime argument is enough evidence to the contrary, that now my stance is 'Unless explicitly allowed by campaign leadership, hero points can not be spent for downtime rerolls'
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Regardless of rules interpretation, didn’t Michael or Tonya explicitly state that hero points could not be used for downtime and/or earned income rolls? I am fairly certain that is the case, though I admit it may have been verbal (at Gen Con) rather than in the forums which would explain why I have so far been unable to source it.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Regardless of rules interpretation, didn’t Michael or Tonya explicitly state that hero points could not be used for downtime and/or earned income rolls? I am fairly certain that is the case, though I admit it may have been verbal (at Gen Con) rather than in the forums which would explain why I have so far been unable to source it.
Verbal communications are, as a managerial tool for a worldwide campaign, basically useless.
On mode practical note, I'm really liking the way Joe Pasini is handling issues in Starfinder right now. When faced with an issue that has spawned a big thread with lots of back and forth, he makes a new thread where in the first post he lays down the issue and his decision. You don't have to dig it out somewhere from the bottom of a 10-page he-said she-said thread.
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Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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Regardless of rules interpretation, didn’t Michael or Tonya explicitly state that hero points could not be used for downtime and/or earned income rolls? I am fairly certain that is the case, though I admit it may have been verbal (at Gen Con) rather than in the forums which would explain why I have so far been unable to source it.
I could swear I thought I saw a reply from Tonya on Facebook regarding hero points & earn income. Of course now I can't find it.
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Regardless of rules interpretation, didn’t Michael or Tonya explicitly state that hero points could not be used for downtime and/or earned income rolls? I am fairly certain that is the case, though I admit it may have been verbal (at Gen Con) rather than in the forums which would explain why I have so far been unable to source it.I could swear I thought I saw a reply from Tonya on Facebook regarding hero points & earn income. Of course now I can't find it.
I really hope we're not now also required to read all of the Facebook posts if we want to keep up to date with campaign rulings.