Dr. Tamatoa's page

Very well done. Thanks

Thank you very much.

Curious when the Pathfinder Adventure Paths will begin shipping. I ordered the subscription on September 6 and wanted to start with the second one. I figured it would ship with the third one. When are those supposed to ship out? because I thought it would have been the September release date. But I could be mistaken.

Additionally, there would have to be a GM that initially signed off on the idea, during a low-level Adventure where a Bulette was encountered, where the party would have agreed to work together to achieve this result.

I can tell you that never occurred in all of PFS1, and most assuredly will not occur in PFS2.

One of my points is that it doesn't have to occur during game play, since it is a downtime action. There is nothing in the rules, or the organized play rules, that say that you have to encounter a similar creature in the module or do anything related to the module that you played. Just have the feat and make the DC.

Secondly, a GM at the end of the game will probably just sign off that the player succeeded at their DC 20 Nature check for their downtime action.

I make no assertions about PFS1, however, I have read the rules for PFS2. The downtime actions in PFS2 go much further than just a roll for income at the end of the adventure. They are abstraction of many actions that players can take after the game. And since this feat was added to the book and has not been banned in society, then Paizo expects players to use it. And I expect someone to try a variation on this technique.

Dr. Tamatoa is putting forward the idea that "trying to bond with a normal animal" can entail meditating from the other side of the planet to telepathically enslave it. Which, as Fuzzy points out, is way too good to be true.

Actually, I am saying that I could be leaving pieces of halfling out for it to eat and luring it to make friends with it. These are abstracted downtime rules. But what about a Mammoth? Or a bear? Or other woodland creature that I can befriend. Bulette is just an extreme example.

Too good to be true is always the case and the issue.

However, Nefreet actually brings up a good point, that I want to answer.

Can you explain this line of thinking? You're far from the first person I've encountered who analyzes things in this way, but I don't understand why or what the point is.

I am one of those that many would call a cheese weasel or a rules lawyer. I really like reading rules and poking holes in them or finding combinations that work, like a fighter going for an ability that gives them a free trip on a frightened foe, etc. As you said, I am not the only one that does it. Now, I don't usually make these combinations and use them in actual play because they are ridiculous and would kill fellow player enjoyment. And my own.

HOWEVER, I GM A LOT. And I run into this behavior A LOT. Now if I am running a home game for a bunch of people, then they will respect the GM's authority. Especially if I let them know that there are none of these creatures in the area.

BUT, if I am playing in Society or some other Living setting, then I may only play with these people once or twice. If I forbid a player from using his Cave Bear Bonded Animal, then I will be considered arbitrary, and that player will just go back to doing it at the next table. Instead I need to find someplace in the RULES AS WRITTEN that allow me to stop the player from doing this going forward. If I point out something that they missed, then they can say that they missed it and can correct their playing going forward. If they don't, then they are willfully cheating and actions can be taken.

HOWEVER, in Society and Living campaign play, there is no single GM to stop this behavior using the GM rules, so that means that they will just avoid me as a GM and go back to it once my back is turned.

This is why I asked if there was anything in the rules that stopped this behavior. And, it doesn't seem that there is currently.

Thanks everyone for your responses. And Nefreet, or anyone else, if you want to further discuss cheese weasel behavior and mindset, I would be happy to continue the discussion in private messages.

Thanks for your comments. I am quite aware how dangerous bulettes are, which is why I used them for my example. The feat in question states:

You forge strong connections with animals. You can spend 7 days of downtime trying to bond with a normal animal (not a companion or other special animal). After this duration, attempt a DC 20 Nature check. If successful, you bond with the animal. The animal is permanently helpful to you, unless you do something egregious to break your bond. A helpful animal is easier to direct, as described under Command an Animal on page 249.

Bonding with a new animal ends any previous bond you had. You can’t have both a bonded animal and an animal companion (though you can have both a bonded animal and a familiar).

It does not clarify that the animal in question has to be in your possession (aka reward in a scene etc), I actually figure this is good for getting animals that are wild. It is probably meant for boars, bears, etc. It does not have any limitation on the level of the creature, or meanness. Just that you can do this if you succeed at the check after the 7 days.

So while the above comments would be fine for an individual GM restricting a player from doing this, I am still looking for somewhere in the rules, where it is restricted or prevented.

Thanks again for your consideration.

So I have been reading the rules, and unless there is something I missed, which is possible, my rogue could have a Bulette (Creature 8) as a mount at level 2.

At level 2 Rogue, I raise Nature to expert and take the Bonded Animal feat. Then all I need to do is roll a DC 20 Nature check during downtime and bam, the animal is permanently helpful to me. And if I have the Ride feat, then I don't even need to roll a check to get it to stride for me.

Also with it being helpful to me, I only need to hit a DC 14 to get it to do an action for me.

The Base DC is the Will DC which is 24 - Will Save (+14) + 10. However the if the animal is helpful to me, which it is, then it increases my degree of success by one step, which means a failure becomes a success and I just need to get over a critical failure, so 24-10=14!

Also with Assurance (Nature), then I can't fail.

I am trying to see if I am missing anything in the rules as written.

I would say that it is based on the number of hands listed in the column on the table. You could transform a light mace into a bastard sword, which has the two-handed weapon trait, but you could not transform from a bastard sword into a greataxe.

Quote:

You give a compelling and persuasive argument for why Assurance could apply to these checks, but it seems like a bait-and-switch to then apply that logic to justify the use of Hero Points which are most definitely not something that provides "constant benefit."

I agree. Those were two different points. Is this more clear?

First, Assurance is a constant effect so it should be applied to downtime actions.

Second, the downtime actions section says most. While I agree that a spell would not matter, the Hero Points are more of a metagame option rather than a spell and I would say that they should be able to be applied to any action of the PC.

Third, where is your clarification beyond some statement in the Rituals section?

I'm going to have to disagree with your interpretation on fortune effects on Downtime activities. The downtime section in the CRB on pages 500-501 states:

Some downtime activities require rolls, typically skill checks. Because these rolls represent the culmination of a series of tasks over a long period, players can’t use most abilities or spells that manipulate die rolls, such as activating a magic item to gain a bonus or casting a fortune spell to roll twice. Constant benefits still apply, though, so someone might invest a magic item that gives them a bonus without requiring activation. You might make specific exceptions to this rule. If something could apply constantly, or so often that it might as well be constant, it’s more likely to be used for downtime checks.

I would say that fortune effects, like those provided by Assurance are acceptable, since they provide constant benefits.

The paragraph above does state "MOST" abilities, this implies that there are some that players can use.

Due to the number of typos and errors in the rest of the book, i.e. Mutagist, I do not think that an offhand comment in the Rituals section is sufficient to block out all fortune effects on downtime activities. Until we get a FAQ or other clarification, I have no problem with players using their left over Hero Points for downtime activities.

Just finished reading it. This is a good introduction, and should be a great help. Thanks for putting it together.

I am playing through Ashes with a goblin lawyer, cleric of Asmodeus. He recently found some law books and case law and is in heaven. He is also putting together an adventuring contract for the party. I hope that they read it first...

Really looking forward to exploring the flavors of this world. Thanks for all of the hard work.