Earn Income


Pathfinder Society

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Apparently, it was stated at Gencon that when earning income, both the Task Level, *and* the Task DC were equal to your level -2 (min 0)

I am pretty certain that is incorrect.

It basically means that most characters will succeed on anything but a one, and crit on anything higher than a 4. An even marginally optimized character (which in this case includes pretty much *any* rogue) will crit on anything but a 2.)

Having run the numbers, an even marginally optimized character comes out about 330 gp ahead at the end of 10th level. (Or about 10% more gold than the system recommends.)

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Further clarification for the whole 8 day thing.

Here is how *I think* it is supposed to work.

Quote:


Stan d'Ard the 4th level paladin has decided that he is going to make himself a level 4 Sturdy Shield, as he is tired of having his shield break all the time.

Being the sturdy, independent sort, Stan's player has decided he was probably a field commission, so he has 12 days of down time.

He rounds up the 50 GP worth of supplies and sets to work.

4 days later he has the base of a shield. But he doesn't have the other 50 gp he would need to finish it, so he continues working on it.

His Craft skill mod is +5 (He is trained, but not very intelligent.) He can knock off 7 sp a day, on a success. But he needs a 19 for even a basic success. After managing to roll a 7 and an 8, and crit fail twice, he decides that he is too frustrated to go on working on this. He puts the shield aside to work on later.

He has now spent a total of 6 days working on this.

He decides to spend the rest of the downtime earning income with his perform skill, standing on the street corner raising funds for the rebuilding of the area of the worldwound (His church pays him for this service.)

For the first block of 8 days, he has spent 6, and only has 2 days remaining. The GM looks up a level 2 earn income task, and sees that it only requires a DC 16 check, and while Stan may not be very smart, he is very charismatic (+3) and an expert at oratory. (Mod +11) It may only get him 3 sp a day, but it should at least be less frustrating.

Stan rolls a 26 on his day job. He is so happy to be out of the work shop that his preaching has an unusual fervor. He manages to make 5sp each day for 2 days, and now the 8 day period is done.

Now the next 8 day block begins, and Stan must make a new roll if he wants to continue to earn income. Stan only has 4 days of down time left before he has to report for his next assignment but he decides to spend the remaining 4 days earning income, hoping for another crit success. He rolls a 22, not a crit, but he stil brings in 3 sp per day for the remaining 4 days

Total:
6 days and 50 gp spent toward an uncompleted shield. (He will come back after 5th level, when between skill increase, level increase, and abilitiy boosts, he will be rolling +9 against a 20, instead of +5 against 19)
6 days spent bringing in a total of 22 sp.


This section of the guide really needs clarification. The existing language isn't clear on a few points. Specifically,

A. it's not at all clear that a field commission character can earn income with those spare 4 days; Stan hasn't spent a second 8-day block of DT, which is what triggers a check. Since you can't save up DT across chronicle sheets, it seems like maybe that means those stray days can't ever be used to Earn Income.

B. while "crafting tasks can be continued across as many Downtime days as necessary," it's not clear that the task can be somehow paused to Earn Income. It in fact explicitly states that "If you are using your Downtime for any other purposes, they must be completed first before you attempt your check to Earn Income." It looks like the proper interpretation might be that you can't Earn Income instead of reducing the buy-off cost of the item. Stan has to finish the shield before he can Earn Income.

Your example certainly seems more forgiving, but it doesn't jibe with document; I'd be curious what the original author intended, because the eight-day thing about including other activities seems like an unnecessary complication unless they wanted item A above to be true, and the clause about completing other tasks seems unnecessary unless they wanted B. to be true, too. If A. and B. aren't intended to be the case, then the whole section can be dramatically simplified and made more intuitive, so my inclination is to assume that they are meant to be the case.

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Jared Thaler wrote:

Further clarification for the whole 8 day thing.

Here is how *I think* it is supposed to work.

This is what I did for the day job (whether this is the intention or not):

I used Table 10-5 (page 503) to determine the relevant DC. For level 1 PCs, the level is 0 (minimum 0) with a DC of 14. For level 5 PCs, the level is 3 (level-2) with a DC of 18.

Then I went to the description of Earn Income (Table 4-2, page 236). Assuming an 8-day downtime (true for pre-generated characters):

Level 1 Pregen (Task Level 0) Critical Failure = nothing; Failure = 0.08 gp (1 cp per day for 8 cp total); Success = 0.4 gp (5 cp per day for 4 sp total); Critical Success = 1.6 gp (2 sp per day for 16 sp total- using Task Level 1 row)

Level 5 Pregen (Task Level 3) Critical Failure = nothing; Failure = 0.64 gp (8 cp per day for 64 cp total); Success = 4 gp (5 sp per day for 40 sp total); Critical Success = 5.6 gp (7 sp per day for 56 sp total).

Level 1 Pregens have a skill ranging from +3 to +7 resulting in a Success between 50% and 70% of the time.

Level 5 Pregens have a skill ranging from +7 to +14 (Fumbus Crafting) resulting in a Success between 50% and 85% of the time. (Fumbus achieves a Critical Success 35% of the time.)

Assuming this is all correct, I'll want a 1-page summary that contains both Tables 10-5 (page 503) and Table 4-2 (page 236). [Unfortunately, this is much more complex than the Starfinder Day Job calculation.]

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

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Here's how it works:

Once you're done doing any other downtime tasks use the rest of your downtime to earn income.

For every 8 day section (or fraction thereof) roll a craft, lore or performance to earn income. The level of the task is your level -2 minimum 0. (or -1 using lore:underworld with experienced smuggler).

Then lookup 10-5 DCs by level chart on page 503. We see that a level 0 task is DC 14. Meaning
1-4 Crit Fail (get nothing)
5-13 Fail (gain fail money)
14-23 Success (gain normal money)
24+ Crit Success (gain money of level +1)

We then look at 4-2 Income Earned p236 and multiply by days.

So assuming the full 8 days for a level 0 task where we are trained.

CF: 0
F: 1cp > 8cp
S: 5cp > 4sp
CS: 2sp > 16sp

OP Guide wrote:
Earn Income: Earning Income is the most common Downtime activity. If you are using your Downtime for any other purposes, they must be completed first before you attempt your check to Earn Income. For each 8 day unit of Downtime you spend (including units where you complete multiple activities, such as spending 7 days retraining and then 1 day Earning Income), you attempt one check to Earn Income, using the result to calculate your total earnings for that block of Downtime. The Task Level of you Earn Income check is equal to your level – 2 (minimum 0) by default (GMs should check Table 10–5: DCs by Level on page 503 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook to calculate the DC), though some boons may allow you to attempt checks against higher level tasks as a special reward. A check to Earn Income does not carry beyond the 8-day cycle for which you attempt the check.
Quote:


Robert Hetherington wrote:
Here's how it works:

You're very confident, and what you and Gary describe seems like how it should work, but it's not what the rule you quoted actually says. For one thing, there's nothing in there about fractions of an 8-day unit.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville aka thaX

For me, when John was going through the Earned Income for the special (1-00), that when giving credit for a 1st level character, the earned money would be 1 CP, 5 SP and 1GP for the Failed, success, and Crit Success. That doesn't seem to indicate rolling separately for each of the 8 days, or giving credit for a single roll for 8 days worth of Earned Income.

It would be great if that is what it is, but at Gen Con, that was not my impression at all.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Australia—NSW—Newcastle aka Tim Schneider 908

I assumed the intent was to say you did 1 check per 8 days (or fraction thereof) & this was the result that applied for those days. I had also assumed the DC was based on the task level via the DC charts, not literally the task level (e.g. If you have 3 days downtime you're using to to earn income, 1 check - covers 3 days, 8 days 1 check - covers 8 days, 14 days 2 checks - first one 8 days next one 6 days).

This is the interpretation I used for the Quest I ran - given only 2 days of downtime we were scratching our heads if we were even allowed to do an Earn Income check. As we only had 2 days to earn income I only gave 2 x the daily result from the chart (3x for those who were field-commissioned and got an extra day's downtime).

My biggest question was whether GM's get downtime or not. I had a lot of trouble even finding confirmation that GM's get any credit in the new guide, only found it noted as a side-note on filling in a chronicle and it was quite vague on what a GM got.

I also took the implication that if you were declaring your downtime usage you had to specify # of days earning income in advance to prevent "Oh I fumbled? I'll only use 1 day on earning income".

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

Here’s what I focused in on in the Guide:

Quote:
If you are using your Downtime for any other purposes, they must be completed first before you attempt your check to Earn Income.
Quote:
For each 8 day unit of Downtime you spend (including units where you complete multiple activities, such as spending 7 days retraining and then 1 day Earning Income), you attempt one check to Earn Income, using the result to calculate your total earnings for that block of Downtime.

It looks like the intention is

1. Do any downtime tasks other than earning income.
2. The remainder of your time is spent earning income in 8-day blocks. If you have “extra” days and can’t form an 8-day block, form the largest block possible.
2. For each 8-day block (or fraction thereof) make 1 check and multiply the money earned by the number of days in the block.

Step two is the part that might be confusing at first. It doesn’t explicitly say “you can’t split a block into 8 separate checks.” And it doesn’t say “If your downtime isn’t evenly divisible by 8, use the remainder as a unique block.” But after a few read-throughs I’m sure that’s correct.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

Jared Thaler wrote:

Apparently, it was stated at Gencon that when earning income, both the Task Level, *and* the Task DC were equal to your level -2 (min 0)

I am pretty certain that is incorrect.

Nope, that’s correct according to the Guide.

Quote:
It basically means that most characters will succeed on anything but a one, and crit on anything higher than a 4. An even marginally optimized character (which in this case includes pretty much *any* rogue) will crit on anything but a 2.)

Can you walk me through the math on this? I’m not seeing how characters would get to a +19 (what you would need to critically succeed on a Level 0 Task while rolling a 5).

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver aka roll4initiative

I see it as: An 8 day block, 4 day block, or even just a 1 day block, then make a single check to earn income. Each block is 1 unit. Earn income from one block -- do not multiply by days remaining.


Kevin Willis wrote:
Can you walk me through the math on this? I’m not seeing how characters would get to a +19 (what you would need to critically succeed on a Level 0 Task while rolling a 5).

He's saying that some people thought the DC was 0, which means 10 or higher is a crit success. Clearly wrong, but an easy misunderstanding if you're not used to translating task levels to DCs, which seems to maybe be new with 2e?

1/5 ⦵⦵

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Kevin Willis wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:

Apparently, it was stated at Gencon that when earning income, both the Task Level, *and* the Task DC were equal to your level -2 (min 0)

I am pretty certain that is incorrect.

Nope, that’s correct according to the Guide.

Quote:
It basically means that most characters will succeed on anything but a one, and crit on anything higher than a 4. An even marginally optimized character (which in this case includes pretty much *any* rogue) will crit on anything but a 2.)
Can you walk me through the math on this? I’m not seeing how characters would get to a +19 (what you would need to critically succeed on a Level 0 Task while rolling a 5).

He's considering the task to be DC=0, so CS on a 10+

Combining Guide with CRB (and a dose of John Compton graciously helping our table on Thursday of GenCon), here's my read on it.

Downtime is awarded, 2 days per xp. So normally 8 days.
GM sets the level of the task to Character Level - 2, and looks up the DC on p503. Level 1 character? Level 0 task -> DC14

CRB says you can roll day-at-a-time, so you could decide if you want to take on harder tasks. The purpose of the guide saying "For each 8 day unit of Downtime you spend [...], you attempt one check to Earn Income, using the result to calculate your total earnings[...]" to me implies that you roll once against the set Level/DC and don't go day-by-day deciding you want to try harder things. (keep it easier for the GM with 1 row, 1 roll)

The guide using the phrase "For each 8 day unit of Downtime[...]" is probably where the confusion comes in (since it could be 2, 3, 8, or 12) and could use a revision to rephrase and remove that specificity from anywhere but examples.

Success and failure get the table 4-2 result for the set level according to the Earn Income activity. Crit success gets the result for the set level + 1 (p.237).

Multiply the currency reward by the number of days spent Earning Income. Only Earning Income? 8 days. Crafting 4 then earning? 4 days, etc.

tl;dr: Receive X Downtime. If doing something other than Earning Income, spend Y days. Then, roll once against the DC for Your Level - 2 and multiply earnings by X-Y days.


Kevin Willis wrote:


Step two is the part that might be confusing at first. It doesn’t explicitly say “you can’t split a block into 8 separate checks.” And it doesn’t say “If your downtime isn’t evenly divisible by 8, use the remainder as a unique block.” But after a few read-throughs I’m sure that’s correct.

My concern is that while your interpretation seems sensible, I think the actual text pretty clearly doesn't support it. It does say to break things into 8-day blocks even if those blocks would include other activies. It says you do the process after 8 days have been spent (not when you run out of DT). And it says the result can't carry over to future sessions. Those clauses only appear to make sense if they're included with the intention to contradict the process you describe in #2.

1/5 ⦵⦵

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Skojar wrote:
Kevin Willis wrote:


Step two is the part that might be confusing at first. It doesn’t explicitly say “you can’t split a block into 8 separate checks.” And it doesn’t say “If your downtime isn’t evenly divisible by 8, use the remainder as a unique block.” But after a few read-throughs I’m sure that’s correct.
My concern is that while your interpretation seems sensible, I think the actual text pretty clearly doesn't support it. It does say to break things into 8-day blocks even if those blocks would include other activies. It says you do the process after 8 days have been spent (not when you run out of DT). And it says the result can't carry over to future sessions. Those clauses only appear to make sense if they're included with the intention to contradict the process you describe in #2.

I think the 8 day blocks is unintended as a matter of practice and is adding confusion by using the default amount of days from a module as illustration.


If that's the case, then the rule can read something like:

Quote:


Earning Income is the most common Downtime activity. If you are using your Downtime for any other purposes, they must be completed first before you attempt your check to Earn Income. After completing all other Downtime activities, roll once for Earn Income and apply that result to each day spent Earning Income for that Chronicle Sheet.

There's a lot more going on in the existing rule for some reason. It may be a good reason, but I don't know what it is. The eight day units seem pretty important to the author, not just as an example. The part about including other activities in those 8-day unit seems important for some reason as well.

(This also still doesn't allow for Stan pausing work on his shield, but that's a different issue.)

Everyone in this thread seems fine with ignoring those parts; I say that instead they need to either be clarified or removed.

3/5

The thing about eight day blocks is to even out variance. If you roll once for twelve days and get a critical success, that's a bit more than expected maximum income. If you roll a crit fail, it's a lot less and feels bad.

If you have twelve days to spend, it works out better to roll twice. Once for the eight days everybody gets, and once for the four days you have left over.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Card Game, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
GM OfAnything wrote:
The thing about eight day blocks is to even out variance. If you roll once for twelve days and get a critical success, that's a bit more than expected maximum income. If you roll a crit fail, it's a lot less and feels bad.

Can confirm that crit failing feels bad. Rolled a 1 with 5th level Amiri's Tanning Lore after 1-00 at GenCon, and I was taking the chronicle at 5th level, so I missed out on a good chunk of (admittedly future) change.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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The way I read it is that if have more than 8 days of downtime after whatever you just played, you can do various things. Each Earn Income check does not exceed 8-day blocks. So if for example you have 12 days of downtime you could make an 8-day Earn Income check and a 4-day Earn Income check.

Basically it is possible to do more than one Earn Income check between adventures depending on what you do with the downtime.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

So for Quest 1A, you get 2 days of Downtime. I originally read the guide to indicate I had to use the Downtime in 8-day blocks, so I had to save up until I had 8 days.

But I cannot save Downtime, so I *have* to use my two days, right? (The 8-day block requirement is only if you have that many days.)

If I do Earn Income, at Level 1, I would make a Task 0 skill check vs. DC 14. If successful (but not CS) then I get Task Level 0 income of 5 cp per day, for a total of 0.1 GPA for 2 days of Downtime. Right?

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

That does appear to be the intention.

As the rest of this thread displays, the language could have been a clearer (an example would have been a help).

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville aka thaX

I was under the impression that the Earned Income had to be done with 8 day blocks. My theory is that the character is spending some of his downtime traveling and getting from place to place.

So, one roll for 8 days. The only way to use up days that don't roll over is to craft an item, as you can use up the downtime and continue on that same item with successive downtime awarded on future chronicles if more downtime is needed to complete it.

Still not sure if the roll is for all 8 days (or days left of the block after other activities) or one Earned Income as indicated for each 8 day block.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

It seems like, if you have Crafting trained, spending that Downtime on crafting would be a much better use of time. If you spend 8 days, an Earn Income success at Level 1 is only 0.4 gp. Spending it on crafting saves you 0.8 gp if you do it all in a single 8-day block (and more if you devote more downtime). Much better than SFS, where crafting with Downtime provides little benefit, and certainly no cost benefit.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Canada—Alberta—Grand Prairie aka DM Livgin

azjauthor wrote:
It seems like, if you have Crafting trained, spending that Downtime on crafting would be a much better use of time. If you spend 8 days, an Earn Income success at Level 1 is only 0.4 gp. Spending it on crafting saves you 0.8 gp if you do it all in a single 8-day block (and more if you devote more downtime). Much better than SFS, where crafting with Downtime provides little benefit, and certainly no cost benefit.

Remember that crafting your own equipment has a 4 day cold start. (Pg 244).

Grand Lodge

Ward Davis wrote:
azjauthor wrote:
It seems like, if you have Crafting trained, spending that Downtime on crafting would be a much better use of time. If you spend 8 days, an Earn Income success at Level 1 is only 0.4 gp. Spending it on crafting saves you 0.8 gp if you do it all in a single 8-day block (and more if you devote more downtime). Much better than SFS, where crafting with Downtime provides little benefit, and certainly no cost benefit.
Remember that crafting your own equipment has a 4 day cold start. (Pg 244).

I was under the impression that after those 4 days you will have crafted the item at half the cost, and every day after that would reduce the cost by some amount (I don't have the CRB with me now to quote specifics, unfortunately). So in an 8 day period, you can craft 2 items at half price. Is this not correct?

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville aka thaX

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You pay half at the beginning and the reduction is off the full price, I believe. (I think the example Jerad has above is about this)


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Grim Ranger wrote:
Ward Davis wrote:
azjauthor wrote:
It seems like, if you have Crafting trained, spending that Downtime on crafting would be a much better use of time. If you spend 8 days, an Earn Income success at Level 1 is only 0.4 gp. Spending it on crafting saves you 0.8 gp if you do it all in a single 8-day block (and more if you devote more downtime). Much better than SFS, where crafting with Downtime provides little benefit, and certainly no cost benefit.
Remember that crafting your own equipment has a 4 day cold start. (Pg 244).
I was under the impression that after those 4 days you will have crafted the item at half the cost, and every day after that would reduce the cost by some amount (I don't have the CRB with me now to quote specifics, unfortunately). So in an 8 day period, you can craft 2 items at half price. Is this not correct?

Incorrect. If you only spend 4 days crafting an item, you have to pay full price at the end of those 4 days. It's only if you spend more time crafting after the initial 4 days that you start to get a discount.

Quote:

You must spend 4 days at work, at which point you attempt a Crafting check. The GM determines the DC to Craft the item based on its level, rarity, and other circumstances.

If your attempt to create the item is successful, you expend the raw materials you supplied. You can pay the remaining portion of the item’s Price in materials to complete the item immediately, or you can spend additional downtime days working on it. For each additional day you spend, reduce the value of the materials you need to expend to complete the item.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

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You pat 50% when you start. At the end of 4 days you can either pay the remaining 50% or you can keep working to reduce the remaining cost.

So, if you craft 2 items in 8 days, you pay the full price.

There are several boons that you can take to have members of your faction do some if that lead work for you.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Ward Davis wrote:
azjauthor wrote:
It seems like, if you have Crafting trained, spending that Downtime on crafting would be a much better use of time. If you spend 8 days, an Earn Income success at Level 1 is only 0.4 gp. Spending it on crafting saves you 0.8 gp if you do it all in a single 8-day block (and more if you devote more downtime). Much better than SFS, where crafting with Downtime provides little benefit, and certainly no cost benefit.
Remember that crafting your own equipment has a 4 day cold start. (Pg 244).

Yeah, 4 days cold start, and then 4 days crafting for a Level 1 (2 sp) discount per day, so a total of 8 sp discount. That assumes the total cost is more than 1.6 gp. The point is that the 2 sp discount is higher enough than 5 cp to compensate for the 4 day cold start and still be a better use of time.

Which isn't a complaint ... if you want to devote to building a crafter character, being able to acquire equipment a little cheaper should be the benefit.

Grand Lodge

Thanks for clearing that up for me folks!

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