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Prior to 2nd Edition, a Goblin walking openly into most any town or village was asking to be killed rather quickly unless there we’re extreme extenuating circumstances and it could somehow convince people to pause long enough to even think before releasing the hounds. Now Goblins have become the party ‘s comic relief...
What’s the in-world explanation?
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Goblins were never ubiquitsouly kill on sight.Prior to 2nd Edition, a Goblin walking openly into most any town or village was asking to be killed rather quickly unless there we’re extreme extenuating circumstances and it could somehow convince people to pause long enough to even think before releasing the hounds. Now Goblins have become the party ‘s comic relief...
What’s the in-world explanation?
In Varisia they are, especially near Sandpoint & Magnimar.
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Lots of players treated them as kill on sight, but Goblins were never really treated that way in the setting. There were however exceptions for specific groups of Goblins that happen to be causing issues in an area.
With that said most people wouldn't really consider a lone Goblin in town a bad thing, just.. odd. They'd be wary if the Goblin started acting strangely and there might be a bit of prejudice toward them but definitely not a kill on sight thing.
Outside of those scenarios however if you had a whole band of Goblins randomly wander into town people might start thinking the worst case scenarios and be VERY wary of your presence.
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Goblins were never ubiquitsouly kill on sight.Prior to 2nd Edition, a Goblin walking openly into most any town or village was asking to be killed rather quickly unless there we’re extreme extenuating circumstances and it could somehow convince people to pause long enough to even think before releasing the hounds. Now Goblins have become the party ‘s comic relief...
What’s the in-world explanation?
Not even a little true.
"Considered nothing more than murderous pests by most, goblins dwell on the fringes of other societies, scavenging amongst their waste and building their society in squalor." The Inner Sea World Guide.
"Humans and other races have made repeated, concentrated efforts to wipe out goblins once and for all, but these attempts always meet with failure." Inner sea races.
Repeated attempted genocide sounds a LOT like "kill on sight".
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What’s the in-world explanation?Goblins were never ubiquitsouly kill on sight.
I know, that's the dumbest part of this controversy to me, their entire schtick was NOT being maximal direct threat inherently triggering lethal combat, but being so dysfunctional and pathetic they often WEREN'T worth it to kill even if slightly irritating. The entire "Goblin babies" scenario is premised on it not being clear cut evil monster to be annihilated, that there is some ambiguity around that. Which is all somewhat related to the similar conflation of the problem with them being "Evil tendency", when dysfunctionality is what is truly relevant, which doesn't automatically mean annihilation is only interaction. I understand how some people could come to that understanding, but that is more artifact of game premise assuming PCs resolve most issues with combat, so killing Goblins is how they end up dealing with them, but that speaks to game pattern more than to Goblins per se. I still don't think Core Goblins was really the best choice, or that Paizo even honestly compared it to alternatives, I'm pretty sure once the idea occured to them (with marketing ID implications) they only approached it as "how/can this work" which is actually low bar.
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IMO, Goblins were never "kill on sight". If it speaks common, most people are going to ask what it wants before combat starts.
"Kill on sight" is an attitude reserved for maniacs, or competent combatants (i.e. adventurer types", rather than "most people" who would usually run away or take shelter in these situations) in case something is unambiguously wrong and cannot be driven off or reasoned with (e.g. a zombie or a shoggoth).
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Goblins were never ubiquitsouly kill on sight.Prior to 2nd Edition, a Goblin walking openly into most any town or village was asking to be killed rather quickly unless there we’re extreme extenuating circumstances and it could somehow convince people to pause long enough to even think before releasing the hounds. Now Goblins have become the party ‘s comic relief...
What’s the in-world explanation?
Not even a little true.
"Considered nothing more than murderous pests by most, goblins dwell on the fringes of other societies, scavenging amongst their waste and building their society in squalor." The Inner Sea World Guide.
"Humans and other races have made repeated, concentrated efforts to wipe out goblins once and for all, but these attempts always meet with failure." Inner sea races.
Repeated attempted genocide sounds a LOT like "kill on sight".
About the only explanation I can come up with can be summed up by this quote...
“The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.”
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I see a lot of people saying that goblins weren't kill on sight with a ton of confidence, but I'm only seeing one person quoting text from a book and that person ain't in that group...
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From what I can tell, there wasn't a change.
Generally speaking, I would say most places in the Inner Sea would not take kindly to a goblin walking about their town. I'm not sure that has really changed per say.
There are pockets throughout the Inner Sea where a certain amount of goblin presence has always been tolerated. I would imagine this would be the paradigm with a Goblin PC, though I would imagine they would always deal with the potential for KoS.
For me, a PC having the option to play a particular race, doesn't necessitate some world-spanning change.
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Repeated attempts at genocide sounds like how humans behave to other humans.
This happening in specific cases doesn't mean it was constant universal never ending attitude.
Not "killing on sight" doesn't mean they wouldn't want to run them out of town, or even have lower threshold to killing them.
I don't even like the choice of Core Goblins.
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From what I remember reading and hearing during play test there was a shift in goblin society not normal society and now a sub culture of goblins large enough to be common is trying to fit in with civilized races.
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I see a lot of people saying that goblins weren't kill on sight with a ton of confidence, but I'm only seeing one person quoting text from a book and that person ain't in that group...
I take all statements like "all people everywhere think this" with a grain of salt, since they cannot possibly be true unless 1) it is an inarguable law of nature (e.g. rocks fall down when you drop them), 2) Some deity wrote it in flaming letters in the sky and there was no rebuttal (e.g. Asmodeus is the Lord of Hell), or 3) the setting is horribly unrealistic.
Like "a fairly common critter is viewed as kill on sight" breaks verisimilitude.
Like "a fairly common critter is viewed as kill on sight" breaks verisimilitude.
Sure, like I mean monkeys can be viewed as pests, and some people might casually kill them for convenience or bloodlust. But that doesn't mean they are strictly "kill on sight", i.e. either somebody will direct kill every single monkey they see, or alert somebody else to kill it for them if they are weak. Saying there is a lower threshold to kill them, and they are treated as filth, doesn't equate to "kill on sight" IMHO, there will actually be situational rationale for killing specific Goblins in most cases.
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Goblins have been playable characters since at least 2012 when the ARG was published and I know they have been allowed in PFS in the past. So whatever change happened it happened before 2e.
EDIT: If you want quotes here is one from the ARG
"Relations: Goblins tend to view other beings as sources of food, which makes for poor relations with most civilized races. Goblins often survive on the fringes of human civilization, preying on weak or lost travelers and occasionally raiding small settlements to fuel their voracious appetites. They have a special animosity toward gnomes, and celebrate the capturing or killing of such victims with a feast. Of the most common races, half-orcs are the most tolerant of goblins, sharing a similar ancestry and experiencing the same hatred within many societies. Goblins are mostly unaware of half-orcs‘ sympathy, however, and avoid them because they are larger, meaner, and less flavorful than other humanoids."
So Goblins were about as "kill on sight" as half-orcs were.
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To be fair the way they were presented in the origonal rise of the Runelords made it seem very much a generally kill on sight thing describing them in such terms as 'Stupid little freaks' and in another sidebar 'It establishes
the goblins not only as dangerous creatures, but as remorselessly evil
little bastards. As the adventure progresses, the PCs should come to
think of goblins with equal parts dark humor and worry; sure, they’re
comedic in some ways, but they also eat babies. They’re vile monsters,
and it’s no good to have the primary villains of an adventure be nothing
more than a laughing stock.'
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There are evil goblins and there are good goblins now. The change is very recent and while the explanation in lore is that goblins have short life and even shorter memories (so many goblins don't care about the past). This move was simply made because just like drows, tieflings etc... Became popular with the player base to be played as heroes.
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I'd hope that any nation or community that killed Goblins on sight would have been evil or at the very least neutral one. Any good nation or community that did so would not be one truly considered good. Even most neutral ones probably wouldn't kill sentient beings on sight.... just for existing. Wiping out that tribes that attacked several villages? That's a different story. Even then.. probably not the non-combatants.
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With such short lifespans and even shorter generation times, natural selection works on goblins very quickly.
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I vote for Ghouls being simply misunderstood as well.
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Someone who kills goblins on sight is either pest control or a serial killer. Probably not a good guy either way.
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Goblins were never kill on sight. And the change occurring is that, in universe, some Goblins have been getting progressively friendlier, culminating in some Isger goblins serving as guides for the survivors of Lastwall in their escape from the Whispering Tyrant and continuing to work with them thereafter.
On the subject of book quotes involving 'kill on sight', Lemme quote a RotRL Trait here:
"Goblin Watcher: You grew up in Sandpoint staring
off the cliff across the Varisian Gulf. Spending so
much time there at Junker’s Edge watching the goblins
below as they scrounged through the discarded junk
and seeing what they made out of the garbage, you
developed an eye for spotting the most useful and
valuable discarded items."
That's indicative that 'goblin watching' is treated like bird or seal watching in Sandpoint. That's not 'kill on sight'.
Graystone's quote would be equally applicable to, say, Rats or Cockroaches in the real world. Neither are 'kill on sight' targets. You certainly kill them when you catch them in your house, and definitely put some effort into extermination if there's a rat or roach problem, but very few people will try to kill a rat they see scurrying into an abandoned building.
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I mean the thing that has changed is that Paizo has editorially decided to show more nuance in how they present the "evil ancestries" of Golarion. Which is to say statements about "how these people are perceived" or "how these people behave or what they believe" are to be taken as localized about specific regions or populations.
Which is not to say that they are contradicting the previous setting, merely they are putting it in a different context. Many people do see goblins as vermin, most people do not kill vermin on sight (you don't set out to kill the squirrels who are eating the bird food you put out, but you might yell at them), and most people are capable of learning their preconceptions were erroneous when confronted with evidence to the contrary.
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I see a lot of people saying that goblins weren't kill on sight with a ton of confidence, but I'm only seeing one person quoting text from a book and that person ain't in that group...I take all statements like "all people everywhere think this" with a grain of salt, since they cannot possibly be true unless 1) it is an inarguable law of nature (e.g. rocks fall down when you drop them), 2) Some deity wrote it in flaming letters in the sky and there was no rebuttal (e.g. Asmodeus is the Lord of Hell), or 3) the setting is horribly unrealistic.
Like "a fairly common critter is viewed as kill on sight" breaks verisimilitude.
"A fairly common critter is viewed as kill on sight" is how American wolves very nearly went extinct.
I'd happily take a retcon in this; I've made my criticisms of greenskins being treated as CE mobs that should be seen as inspiration for a low level quest and nothing else quite clear. I'm happy that Paizo's improving on this with 2nd edition content, but to claim that it's always been like this and it just so happens that all content about goblins is just written by someone who's super racist against goblins is disingenuous.
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Here we go again.
Goblins plural; usually got attacked; goblin singular; people usually wait and see what happens. That was the general in universe reaction outside of places that commonly experienced goblin attacks.
Goblin society tended to be awful with a handful of non evil tribes (with recent events increasing the percentage) but goblins pushed out or raised away from from tribes aren't neccasairly going to be evil. Chaotic and overly fond of fire yes; but not necesarily evil. Terrible parenting is why most Goblins become evil.
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There's a lot of prejudice against goblins, and they are historically viewed as vermin by most people. This is and has always been canonical (though it's starting to change in-world). But 'vermin' and 'kill on sight' are not, and have never been, the same category.
Rats are widely considered vermin, but as I mention above, very few people kill them on sight unless they've invaded your home or are attacking you or something.
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From what I remember reading and hearing during play test there was a shift in goblin society not normal society and now a sub culture of goblins large enough to be common is trying to fit in with civilized races.
Yep, this is it exactly. Here's what the 2e CRB has to say (pg 46-47):
Goblins have a reputation as simple creatures who love songs, fire, and eating disgusting things and who hate reading, dogs, and horses—- and there are a great many for whom this description fits perfectly. However, great changes have come to goblinkind, and more and more goblins resist conformity to these stereotypes. Even among goblins that are more worldly, many still exemplify their old ways in some small manner, just to a more sensible degree.
...
Though goblins’ culture has splintered radically, their reputation has changed little. As such, goblins who travel to larger cities are frequently subjected to derision, and many work twice as hard at proving their worth.
...
Goblins tend to assume for their own protection that members of taller ancestries, which goblins often refer to colloquially as “longshanks,” won’t treat them kindly. Learning to trust longshanks is difficult for a goblin, and it’s been only in recent years that such a partnership has even been an option. However, their attitude as a people is changing rapidly, and their short lifespans and poor memories help them adapt quickly.
Exactly WHY this change has occurred among Goblinkind isn't stated. Maybe the forthcoming Lost Omens World Guide will go into further detail.
Creative Director
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Behind the scenes history glimpse:
When we launched the first Pathfinder Adventure Path two years BEFORE we launched the Pathfinder RPG, we were desperate to establish ourselves as our own company and game studio APART from Wizards of the Coast.
With the first volume of the first Adventure Path, "Burnt Offerings," we decided to focus on a monster that, for decades in D&D, had been regulated to the role of "speed bump encounter" in adventures… the lowly goblin. Our goal was to breathe new life into goblins, give them personality, and make them into memorable foes for low-level PCs to fight against and to remember. I took equal parts gremlin (from the movie Gremlins), Stitch (from the movie Lilo and Stitch), Wayne Reynolds' now iconic cover and first illustration of our goblins, mythological real-world tales of evil/sinister little spirits/monsters, and my own twisted sense of humor as inspiration and came up with the goblins that starred in that adventure.
They became wildly popular beyond any of our expectations.
Fast-forward 12 years, and we are launching a 2nd edition of Pathfinder. This is a game that, unlike 1st edition, wasn't so much a re-skin of the 3rd Edition D&D rules but a complete and total rebuild of the rules. There's more of our design philosophy in 2nd edition than in 1st edition, and that reflects all we learned over the course of those 12 years in between.
While we wanted to retain the core ancestry and class options from 1st edition Pathfinder (themselves the core ancestry and class options from D&D), we wanted to take this chance to introduce a new class and a new ancestry that WE built up, not something we inherited from D&D.
For the classes, this was the Alchemist class.
For the ancestries, the notion of adding a new one to the mix of Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, and Gnome was in the mix from the start... and NO other ancestry other than Goblin came or comes close to being so completely identifiable as "PAIZO" than anything else. Graduating them to a PC option was, in effect, a no-brainer.
This doesn't mean that all goblins in the world are now good. Remember, even if your entire party is made of goblins, PCs remain the rarest of the rare in your game—at any one time, there's only the number of PCs at your table active in a setting, so even if they're all goblins, that's, what, four characters on an entire planet. However many other goblins in the world are non-evil is left to each individual GM to decide.
For Golarion, we do make that choice, and there are indeed groups of goblins in the world who aren't maniac evil baby-eating monsters... particularly in areas like Isger and Absalom. Not so much in western Varisia, where goblins remain mostly nasty (although you'll note some non-nasty goblins in Sandpoint's recent book even).
So there ya go.
One more thing: With the six ancestries in the core, we have thematic representatives for all of the non-evil alignments:
LG: Dwarf
NG: Gnome
CG: Elf
LN: Halfling
N: Human
CN: Goblin
Obviously, any ancestry can be any alignment, but I do like how the six of them kinda fit into those six different buckets.
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Also worth mentioning that there have been non-evil goblin NPCs in more than one 1e Adventure Path.
And while you can argue about canonicity, the Kingmaker CRPG has a plotline where you can invite a tribe of non-evil goblins to assimilate into your kingdom, and that predates 2e by a bit.
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Especially in Pathfinder Society there are numerous goblin tribes who have worked with the Society for the betterment of all over multiple scenarios, there's even a boon celebrating it. The Emerald Spire also has a group of goblins who effectively live in town and are tolerated because it's either more effort to kill them than it's worth or they're of value to some people. I suspect anyone wanting more examples could easily find more with some effort if they cared enough to.
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If goblins are the canonical "naturally CN" PC ancestry, can we please get some goblin deities who are CG, CN, or N?
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If goblins are the canonical "naturally CN" PC ancestry, can we please get some goblin deities who are CG, CN, or N?
Clearly, we need a non-evil goblin to TAKE THE TEST OF THE STARSTONE AND ASCEND TO GODHOOD AS AN EXAMPLE FOR ALL GOBLINKIND TO ASPIRE TO!
Something else to note, at least as far as the Pathfinder: Kingmaker PC game goes, you as the leader in the Stolen Lands have several opportunities to integrate a communities of monsters into your kingdom, and one of these is a bunch of goblins. One of them, Nok-Nok, even serves as a companion, and if you do Nok-Nok's side-quest, there's a mention in the ending that the goblins ARE getting along with the rest of the kingdom and some even find them funny (especially if you encourage Nok-Nok to become your court jester). That could certainly have had an impact.
"Hey, it worked in the Stolen Lands, maybe it can work here!"
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If goblins are the canonical "naturally CN" PC ancestry, can we please get some goblin deities who are CG, CN, or N?
Why? (if I may ask)
I mean technically the gods they have aren't even goblin gods. Personally I think it suits the race better to be co-opting and "scavenging" faiths more than having actual gods.
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It's a retcon. You aren't worried why sorcerers can suddenly cast divine spells, or why animal companions are now wimps. The rules changed, the world changed. This is Paizo wanting to change things further away from generic D&D to their own Golorion setting.
(D&D goblins are NE, and I never thought of halflings as LN)
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If goblins are the canonical "naturally CN" PC ancestry, can we please get some goblin deities who are CG, CN, or N?Clearly, we need a non-evil goblin to TAKE THE TEST OF THE STARSTONE AND ASCEND TO GODHOOD AS AN EXAMPLE FOR ALL GOBLINKIND TO ASPIRE TO!
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If goblins are the canonical "naturally CN" PC ancestry, can we please get some goblin deities who are CG, CN, or N?Why? (if I may ask)
I mean technically the gods they have aren't even goblin gods. Personally I think it suits the race better to be co-opting and "scavenging" faiths more than having actual gods.
I mean we have "generally specific to this ancestry" pantheons for a bunch of ancestries.
Dwarves have Torag's clan which spans LG, LN, and NG with his disgruntled apprentice as the NE alternative
Elves have NG Yuelral to go with CN Calistria and CG Findeladlara and Ketephys. Also LN Alseta who is an outlier.6
Amusingly the "specific connection to gnomes" deities are all N.
Halflings have NG Chaldira and NE Thamir Gixx.
But the "Goblin Hero Gods" are LE, NE, and CE while all the Orc deities are CE. It feels like "a more nuanced presentation of the 'evil ancestries'"would offer a diversity of "specific to this culture" faiths like others have.
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I really don't feel Good Goblin Deities is especially a priority, but even without them it would make sense to develop Good Goblin tribes etc having particular focus on specific Good Deities. It just doesn't seem imporant to me that it is "Goblin Deity", I could see some Empyreal Lords... Or the liberated Good Elemental Lord of Fire would kind of be good match, I think...?
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One FORMER Empyreal Lord in particular would work well, like I said in the other thread on this topic: Sarenrae always advocates for the best in people, even monsters like goblins, and her head is literally on fire, which goblins think is awesome! It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to find Sarenite goblins looking to burn unrepentant bad guys in her name!
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Prior to 2nd Edition, a Goblin walking openly into most any town or village was asking to be killed rather quickly unless there we’re extreme extenuating circumstances and it could somehow convince people to pause long enough to even think before releasing the hounds. Now Goblins have become the party ‘s comic relief...
What’s the in-world explanation?
Where have you been? We hashed this out a year ago.
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One FORMER Empyreal Lord in particular would work well, like I said in the other thread on this topic: Sarenrae always advocates for the best in people, even monsters like goblins, and her head is literally on fire, which goblins think is awesome! It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to find Sarenite goblins looking to burn unrepentant bad guys in her name!
Coincidentally, the ONLY player companion I've bought in the last three years, Heroes of Golarion has a small section concerning some goblin tribes that have started worshipping Sarenrae, including a couple of feats.
Personally, I love it!
So, good call, man!
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Some things that popped up in canon, from the top of my head:
-Some goblins in the Magnimar sewers became more friendly and peaceful after adventurers rescued them from a faceless stalker. (Doomsday Dawn)
-A handful of goblins filtered into the Pathfinder Society (via special boons from that campaign)
-Goblins became novelty house servants in Absalom (Pathfinder comics)
-Goblins helped save some longshanks from an undead horde (We Be Heroes)
I'm sure there are other spots where non-evil goblins have popped up, but there have been at least a few items here and there over the years that started developing goblins beyond their original depiction from Burnt Offerings.
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Prior to 2nd Edition, a Goblin walking openly into most any town or village was asking to be killed rather quickly unless there we’re extreme extenuating circumstances and it could somehow convince people to pause long enough to even think before releasing the hounds. Now Goblins have become the party ‘s comic relief...
What’s the in-world explanation?
It would have been nice if they had written, like, a troop of goblin adventurers in as side characters during The Tyrant's Grasp adventure path, and had them play pivotal roles in the background defeating the minions of Tar-Bapheon while you deal with the big bad. That way word of them could spread, other goblins could be inspired to be heroic, and civilized people would be willing to be a bit more forgiving since four of the green bastards helped save the world.
Even better if they were themed after the four Goblin Hero Gods, representing a rejection of the evil barghests and an intentional choice to reject their evil ways.
Okay, I'm going to ask Paizo if I can write this as the next We Be Goblins module.
Also, here's a lovely little goblin dog: https://i.imgur.com/A8hprGp.png
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If goblins are the canonical "naturally CN" PC ancestry, can we please get some goblin deities who are CG, CN, or N?
I really hope I'm misremembering and you're not one of the people who has repeatedly told me to be happy with orcs just converting to Sarenrae if they're going to be Good.
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From what I remember reading and hearing during play test there was a shift in goblin society not normal society and now a sub culture of goblins large enough to be common is trying to fit in with civilized races.
There were a couple of Pathfinder Society adventures in the past year, for first edition, which showed this. Also, this year's free RPG day adventure, "We Be Heroes?" was a 2e playtest where you played goblins from a Sarenrae worshiping goblin tribe, with good and neutral alignments.
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One FORMER Empyreal Lord in particular would work well, like I said in the other thread on this topic: Sarenrae always advocates for the best in people, even monsters like goblins, and her head is literally on fire, which goblins think is awesome! It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to find Sarenite goblins looking to burn unrepentant bad guys in her name!
I actually did play a Sarenrae-worshipping goblin paladin in Doomsday Dawn who took the Fire Deity's Domain. Quite enjoyable.
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I still like the idea of many of the good goblins coming from the goblins that good adventurers kept putting into good aligned deity's orphanages. It was originally posted as a joke, but there's a lot of merit to it. Also there is the point that Burnt Offerings is set in 4709, and the current date is 4719. Ten years is plenty of time for goblin maturity, so the babies that many PCs (including my group) saved to grow up and become PCs on their own.
But clearly that's not the whole story. Another source of non-evil goblins is with tribes who have decided to cooperate with their neighbors as a survival technique. Isger being the source for many. Some of these tribes were non-evil already maybe, but just kept to themselves so weren't known about. But are now reaching out with the recent upheavals.