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It's very frustrating and boring that you can't specialize in a skill enough to guarantee being better at it than any equivalent-level or slightly higher creature you encounter throughout your career. It's a slap in the face as a player that you've invested in something as much as possible but you're still worse at it because the game is designed that way.
Skill feats are also quite important. How important is it that you run into some creature that is close to your Legendary Medicine modifier when you can end up healing 8 entire creatures without stopping, if they're stuck healing one creature with them then being unable to be treated again for like an hour?
It is that big a deal if your Athletics are comparable if you can grapple the largest creatures in the game and they can't? If you're so good, you get a swim speed whereas they have to roll regularly?
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Being perceptive is just something the game requires you to be, and arbitrarily some classes are better at it
Why is the cleric 'arbitrarily' being better at perception fine but fighters and rangers 'arbitrarily' being better at perception not okay in your book then?
Nevermind that I'm not sure arbitrary is the right word, being highly perceptive is a lot more thematic for a wilderness survivalist than a priest from an abbey.
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It's very frustrating and boring that you can't specialize in a skill enough to guarantee being better at it than any equivalent-level or slightly higher creature you encounter throughout your career. It's a slap in the face as a player that you've invested in something as much as possible but you're still worse at it because the game is designed that way.
Uh, you can be.
The Hamadryad is an extreme, not the norm.
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Hmm, how is this any different than martials being better at combat than casters, or certain martials having different levels of attack bonus/damage?Magic is a caster's thing, fighting is a martial thing. You pick a caster class based on the kind of spells you want to cast or the style of casting that appeals you and the same for martials. Style, theme etc. Nothing about any of those classes sells a theme or fantasy of 'being perceptive.' Being perceptive is just something the game requires you to be, and arbitrarily some classes are better at it, even though they're already good at things over other classes (Like Rangers hunting, or rogues and their extra skill increases)
I'm not a fan of Canny Acumen being the combination of 4 different feats so you have to pick a save or perception to increase, but whatever.
This is also an edition where tasks can be gated behind your level of proficiency and to date we haven't seen any of that for Perception, but I can't imagine its not going to happen.
You aren’t required to be good at Perception, though you’re encouraged, the same with everything else.
If everyone was exactly the same with it then there wouldn't be much need for it actually, disparity can be a good thing.
It's very frustrating and boring that you can't specialize in a skill enough to guarantee being better at it than any equivalent-level or slightly higher creature you encounter throughout your career. It's a slap in the face as a player that you've invested in something as much as possible but you're still worse at it because the game is designed that way.Uh, you can be.
The Hamadryad is an extreme, not the norm.
The existence of those extremes is the problem.
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I can see where sherlock is coming from. People say the hamadryad is a unique specialist, but so is a character who maximizes their investment in a certain skill too.
It can feel frustrating and very lame to build a character to be the best at one particular thing only for them to not only be outclassed, but potentially significantly so by an enemy that's ostensibly their equal given CR guidelines.
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So are clerics, wizards, and druids.
Are they though? I can't think of many pieces of fiction where the priest or wizard are known for the naturally heightened senses. I read a story once about a priest who was also a detective but that was more an exception than the assumed norm.
Granted, in D&D Clerics get really good perception essentially for free because they're already incentivized in investing in wisdom... but that's still true in PF2. Again, it seems like in that particular case you're okay with one class having an arbitrary advantage.
Given that, rogues, fighters and rangers getting a proficiency bump is really just helping them play catch-up to the Cleric and chances are pretty good the Cleric might still come out ahead anyways.
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It's very frustrating and boring that you can't specialize in a skill enough to guarantee being better at it than any equivalent-level or slightly higher creature you encounter throughout your career. It's a slap in the face as a player that you've invested in something as much as possible but you're still worse at it because the game is designed that way.
I honestly get where you're coming from here. That said, I disagree with your conclusion. A true specialist should outclass the vast majority of same level threats, and be able to, with effort, equal even the best.
Now, that said, I'm not at all sure they can't. I think, and we should look at the book to examine, that with the right spells, you probably can equal the Hamadryad Queen...and I think requiring spells to equal the few true specialists in an area is reasonable enough.
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And being able to fail occasionally even when specialized actually keeps some spice to the rolls.
Being able to fail occasionally is fine. Heck, if two hyper specialized characters are competing with each other it should probably be pretty neck and neck.
But according to some of the math on the first page, this is a dedicated specialist failing at their specialized task nearly three quarters of the time against an equivalent CR challenge.
That's a big step up from 'it's okay to fail occasionally.'
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It's very frustrating and boring that you can't specialize in a skill enough to guarantee being better at it than any equivalent-level or slightly higher creature you encounter throughout your career. It's a slap in the face as a player that you've invested in something as much as possible but you're still worse at it because the game is designed that way.
I consider this a feature and I hope it never changes. There are different things in the world, mysteries that you will never fully know, if even that - a fantasy world, if you will.
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It's very frustrating and boring that you can't specialize in a skill enough to guarantee being better at it than any equivalent-level or slightly higher creature you encounter throughout your career. It's a slap in the face as a player that you've invested in something as much as possible but you're still worse at it because the game is designed that way.I honestly get where you're coming from here. That said, I disagree with your conclusion. A true specialist should outclass the vast majority of same level threats, and be able to, with effort, equal even the best.
Now, that said, I'm not at all sure they can't. I think, and we should look at the book to examine, that with the right spells, you probably can equal the Hamadryad Queen...and I think requiring spells to equal the few true specialists in an area is reasonable enough.
As you say, you can build a level 13 character with Perception that can outwit even the faerie queen's honeyed words, among the pinnacles of high skills for its level (I doubt any creature ever has higher in any skill at level 13), but to do so, it'll take more effort, as you say. Some combination of items, magic, assistance or other circumstances can get you there. But you don't need all of that to outmatch most creatures. That plus creatures are very unlikely to have feat support for their skills for complexity and word count reasons like characters do; a character that has +20 Acrobatics but counts successes to Balance as critical successes is much more likely to win a balance beam race than one with +21 Acrobatics.
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I think, and we should look at the book to examine, that with the right spells, you probably can equal the Hamadryad Queen...and I think requiring spells to equal the few true specialists in an area is reasonable enough.
Except when you're facing a deceiver you often won't know to buff with the appropriate spells ahead of time.
Assuming those buff spells are still relatively short lasting, of course.
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Admittedly, if sense motive had still been a separate skill, I might not care as much, but since it was rolled into perception the score has to do more.
I think this is a big part of it. Your average priest may not be portrayed as capable of hearing a deer drinking 100m away or noticing the brief passing of an assassin's shadow, but often is portrayed as having insight into the human condition and a good read of people. Rolling together sense motive and perception completely precludes that, and your average Joe Stickyfingers winds up being better at both.
I think, and we should look at the book to examine, that with the right spells, you probably can equal the Hamadryad Queen...and I think requiring spells to equal the few true specialists in an area is reasonable enough.Except when you're facing a deceiver you often won't know to buff with the appropriate spells ahead of time.
Assuming those buff spells are still relatively short lasting, of course.
Yeah, it's not like you can cast a spell during a conversation without the other party noticing, and most people are going to shut the talks down until the spell effect is gone or even more long-term. You cast the barter buff before you walk in the shop, not in front of the shopkeeper.
Plus it's not like the dryad queen has any buff spells up to hit that number.
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That's a strange argument to me because, just to pick a random example, no 18th level character is going to ever equal or even approach the crimson worm's 410 hit points no matter how much they focus their character on having as many hit points as possible.
The idea that inhuman monsters can be inhumanly good at specific things in a way no human can hope to match is pretty well embedded in the tropes and has always been true of previous editions. As long as monsters aren't outclassing PCs at everything, I don't think it's an issue.
To quote a wise man, "there's always a bigger fish".
Plus, on the flip side, no monster is ever going to equal the versatility of a PC. Even if a monster can do one thing better than you, it can't do as many different things as you can, because PCs are huge bundles of versatility.
To quote another wise man, "the computer beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kickboxing".
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That's a strange argument to me because, just to pick a random example, no 18th level character is going to ever equal or even approach the crimson worm's 410 hit points no matter how much they focus their character on having as many hit points as possible.
Can you give me an example of when you'd roll a hit point check against a monster's HP?
To quote a wise man, "there's always a bigger fish".
Isn't that literally what the CR system is designed to represent?
I don't think sherlock would have a problem with a stronger enemy being better than a PC. The issue here is that the hamadryad isn't a bigger fish, according to the game's own guidelines on encounters.
I wonder if the hamadryad would be as celebrated for its supposed uniqueness if it was, instead, its AC that was so high even an optimized character would have trouble hitting it.
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That's a strange argument to me because, just to pick a random example, no 18th level character is going to ever equal or even approach the crimson worm's 410 hit points no matter how much they focus their character on having as many hit points as possible.Can you give me an example of when you'd roll a hit point check against a monster's HP?
To quote a wise man, "there's always a bigger fish".Isn't that literally what the CR system is designed to represent?
I don't think sherlock would have a problem with a stronger enemy being better than a PC. The issue here is that the hamadryad isn't a bigger fish, according to the game's own guidelines on encounters.
I wonder if the hamadryad would be as celebrated for its supposed uniqueness if it was, instead, its AC that was so high even an optimized character would have trouble hitting it.
I mean, sure. The encounter would be interesting as it's suddenly about bringing it down with non-conventional means, targeting its abstract defenses instead of landing direct blows. The Martials use combat maneuvers and Demoralize and any save-targeting powers they have to hinder the foe while casters go for the damage or additional debuffs. Or maybe you focus on using flanking, buffs, and debuffs to tip the math as far as possible and bring it down with sheer number of attacks.
Not something I'd want on just any monster, but I'd happily take it occasionally. Especially if it's weaker in other areas like the Dryad Queen.
Oozes are a good example of the flipside of this. They have absurdly more Hit Points than anything else of their level and are immune to critical hits, but their AC is incredibly incredibly terrible. That means suddenly new (or in this case perhaps old, as it's more like PF1) tactics of making lots of attacks at -10 MAP are really effective, and it's much more likely to land powerful press abilities on the ooze since you can hit despite the MAP.
Plus for some reason it's just really satisfying to beat down and hit on four or five attacks against an ooze; like squeezing a stress ball I guess. :D
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Especially when you make the logical extension
I don't think that really is a logical extension, because those aren't things you roll checks for. You're never going to be in a situation where you roll your HP against someone else's HP. Monster HP and Player HP have entirely different assumptions about what they're going to be required to soak.
Skill checks and DCs don't and will be compared directly against each other, however.
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Especially when you make the logical extensionI don't think that really is a logical extension, because those aren't things you roll checks for. You're never going to be in a situation where you roll your HP against someone else's HP. Monster HP and Player HP have entirely different assumptions about what they're going to be required to soak.
Skill checks and DCs don't and will be compared directly against each other, however.
The first part of this is wrong, though. Because a 13th level player is supposed to be an equal challenge to a 13th level monster, a monster's HP is assumed to be soaking the exact same things that a player's HP is.
If that weren't true (see for example Starfinder) you wouldn't be able to use PCs as enemies.
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Yeah, it's not like you can cast a spell during a conversation without the other party noticing, and most people are going to shut the talks down until the spell effect is gone or even more long-term. You cast the barter buff before you walk in the shop, not in front of the shopkeeper.
Do all your social encounters occur by surprise? I'm pretty sure most meetings with a Queen of the Fey are the sort of thing there's some lead up to, actually. And if there's lead up, you can probably buff.
Also, a situation like this where you can't pre-buff is exactly what Concealed Spell is for, and that's a Feat available to Sorcerers and thus every spell list.
Plus it's not like the dryad queen has any buff spells up to hit that number.
No she doesn't, but it's very possible she doesn't have access to such buffs at all, while PCs may. She's a Primal caster and I doubt Primal is good at social buffs. Would you rather she had the text ala PF1 'always has this random non-list spell up' to give a social buff? Because avoiding that kind of cross checking complexity is a design goal of PF2, and the result is the same 99% of the time.
What's her Perception DC? Maybe you can weave your own web of lies too.
Her Perception is +25. Very respectable, but PCs can manage to beat it even sans buffs. Her Will Save is +24, and even more easily opposed.
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This. Saying that specialization should make you the best, but only for things you roll for, is even less logical.
How so? The things you roll are literally the things you're comparing against the enemy. They are the only way in which you directly compare yourself against the enemy. You roll something, you check it against their DC or vice versa. Your checks are how you interact with the rest of the world.
Look, if you're okay with monsters being much stronger than PCs, that's fine, but an argument like "You should be okay failing 70% of the time because you don't have as much HP as the monster either" is non-sequitur and feels disrespectful to sherlock's position.
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Do all your social encounters occur by surprise? I'm pretty sure most meetings with a Queen of the Fey are the sort of thing there's some lead up to, actually. And if there's lead up, you can probably buff.Also, a situation like this where you can't pre-buff is exactly what Concealed Spell is for, and that's a Feat available to Sorcerers and thus every spell list.
I can't imagine any sort of royal or noble court that wouldn't have a guy with detect magic and good magic-identifying skills to watch for things like this. That's the one spell people would want up in a fair conversation (that or antimagic field).
Now if you could cover up the spell aura after casting, that would make sense.
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It's very frustrating and boring that you can't specialize in a skill enough to guarantee being better at it than any equivalent-level or slightly higher creature you encounter throughout your career. It's a slap in the face as a player that you've invested in something as much as possible but you're still worse at it because the game is designed that way.I consider this a feature and I hope it never changes. There are different things in the world, mysteries that you will never fully know, if even that - a fantasy world, if you will.It's very frustrating and boring when specializing in a skill to the best of your abilities means you'll never come across any threats around or even a bit above your level that can provide a notable roadblock to your skills. AKA pretty much my #1 gripe with PF1.
That said I understand the frustration, if you want that roadblock you can use higher foes, but that's a slippery slope and as mentioned it becomes a matter of using your versatility and options to overcome a rare case of a mathematical barricade to a full specialist. As has been gone over plenty by those more eloquent than I, it's good to have a few cases like these to avoid monotony in on-level skill challenges IMO.
That's one of the things I love about PF1. You can determine the outcome of any particular roll in advance with your character build, if you choose to specialize in it, or at least get very close to doing so. Relying on random chance for something you are supposed to be the best at isn't fun (also why I objected to variable damage modifiers instead of static bonuses - +35 is always more fun than +10d6, because you can count on that number). I prefer sure things.
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That's one of the things I love about PF1. You can determine the outcome of any particular roll in advance with your character build, if you choose to specialize in it, or at least get very close to doing so. Relying on random chance for something you are supposed to be the best at isn't fun (also why I objected to variable damage modifiers instead of static bonuses - +35 is always more fun than +10d6, because you can count on that number). I prefer sure things.It's very frustrating and boring that you can't specialize in a skill enough to guarantee being better at it than any equivalent-level or slightly higher creature you encounter throughout your career. It's a slap in the face as a player that you've invested in something as much as possible but you're still worse at it because the game is designed that way.I consider this a feature and I hope it never changes. There are different things in the world, mysteries that you will never fully know, if even that - a fantasy world, if you will.It's very frustrating and boring when specializing in a skill to the best of your abilities means you'll never come across any threats around or even a bit above your level that can provide a notable roadblock to your skills. AKA pretty much my #1 gripe with PF1.
That said I understand the frustration, if you want that roadblock you can use higher foes, but that's a slippery slope and as mentioned it becomes a matter of using your versatility and options to overcome a rare case of a mathematical barricade to a full specialist. As has been gone over plenty by those more eloquent than I, it's good to have a few cases like these to avoid monotony in on-level skill challenges IMO.
The ability to take '1' on a check was something I hated about PF1.
There's things you're good at, there's things that are challenges, and there are things you can't fail.
The PF2 paradigm is that things you can't fail at are lower level challenges, and you shouldn't bother rolling against them. A challenge to the average party member should still have a chance of failure to the specialist. It should be a much lower chance, but it should exist.
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Maaan I'm so happy to see Fighters and Rogues be straight up better than other classes at things that are universally desirable. Weak attempts at niche protection are OUT.I hate that things that are universally desirable are niched out to certain classes. Why can't I have a cleric (or sorcerer or alchemist) with Legendary Perception? Its only the most important (non-skill, but really should be) skill in the game. Trapfinding isn't even locked behind the rogue anymore.
I'm okay with some of it, but Perception is an issue for me, too. Monks, for example, are often noted for their keen insight, and their ability to see things that others cannot. I want my Monk to be able to have Legendary Perception. Heightened senses and keen perception in general are, to me, one of the most important abilities to have. One of my favorites. Is there no way for my Monk to ever have Legendary Perception?
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The playtest DC table set the point at which you don't bother rolling by level, not by bonus. So either both the specialist and the other party member are rolling (and have a chance to fail) or neither are.
The playtest and that table are irrelevant now. It was based on different expectations where even untrained people got level to proficiency.
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I can't imagine any sort of royal or noble court that wouldn't have a guy with detect magic and good magic-identifying skills to watch for things like this. That's the one spell people would want up in a fair conversation (that or antimagic field).
Now if you could cover up the spell aura after casting, that would make sense.
Antimagic Field is, I believe, Rare, and thus not gonna show up almost ever. And yes, there's probably someone checking for spells. But there's a difference between checking and doing something about it. Some spells would probably provoke a response, but I can't imagine Discern Lies being on that list (if only because of what it implies to forbid such a spell in your presence), and other spells granting skill bonuses probably wouldn't be either.
Antimagic Field is, I believe, Rare, and thus not gonna show up almost ever. And yes, there's probably someone checking for spells. But there's a difference between checking and doing something about it. Some spells would probably provoke a response, but I can't imagine Discern Lies being on that list (if only because of what it implies to forbid such a spell in your presence), and other spells granting skill bonuses probably wouldn't be either.I can't imagine any sort of royal or noble court that wouldn't have a guy with detect magic and good magic-identifying skills to watch for things like this. That's the one spell people would want up in a fair conversation (that or antimagic field).
Now if you could cover up the spell aura after casting, that would make sense.
Rarity is a blight on this game and I have no intention of ever using it or playing with anyone who does.
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Rarity is a blight on this game and I have no intention of ever using it or playing with anyone who does.Antimagic Field is, I believe, Rare, and thus not gonna show up almost ever. And yes, there's probably someone checking for spells. But there's a difference between checking and doing something about it. Some spells would probably provoke a response, but I can't imagine Discern Lies being on that list (if only because of what it implies to forbid such a spell in your presence), and other spells granting skill bonuses probably wouldn't be either.I can't imagine any sort of royal or noble court that wouldn't have a guy with detect magic and good magic-identifying skills to watch for things like this. That's the one spell people would want up in a fair conversation (that or antimagic field).
Now if you could cover up the spell aura after casting, that would make sense.
Seems like a terrible loss to the community. Thankfully you're welcome to use whatever house rules you like. If you're so willing to ignore sections of the rules, perhaps you should just ignore the Dryad's skill total.
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Rarity is a blight on this game and I have no intention of ever using it or playing with anyone who does.
I disagree. It's a pretty decent way to codify restricted access to certain abilities that aren't meant to really be tossed around.
Like how Blood Money was kind of designed to be a special thing used by a certain character and became an optimization tool of choice.
I feel like that spell in particular is like, 80% of the reason spells have rarity at all.
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Rarity is a blight on this game and I have no intention of ever using it or playing with anyone who does.
The game is predicated on certain things, including Rarity in some cases. If you're gonna make Antimagic Field more widely available, you probably need to do several things to account for that (primarily, defining how much of monster's bonuses in general are magic), or the game will start having some issues.
The playtest DC table set the point at which you don't bother rolling by level, not by bonus. So either both the specialist and the other party member are rolling (and have a chance to fail) or neither are.The playtest and that table are irrelevant now. It was based on different expectations where even untrained people got level to proficiency.
So what's the published game's equivalent of the DC table? Is there something saying, "a level 10 challenging climb is DC x"? Or does it give fixed DCs like, "climbing a smooth vertical wall of ice is DC 30"?
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So what's the published game's equivalent of the DC table? Is there something saying, "a level 10 challenging climb is DC x"? Or does it give fixed DCs like, "climbing a smooth vertical wall of ice is DC 30"?
Almost a hundred posts in and someone asks the key question.
The take on DCs is notably different from the playtest. Gone is the table with 5 DCs per level based on how hard something is supposed to be. Instead you get a more varied approach. For those who want to read the whole thing, go to page 503.
In short, first you check if there's a predefined DC for whatever the player is doing. If not, then you can use either the Simple DC or the DC by Level.
Simple DCs are:
Untrained 10
Trained 15
Expert 20
Master 30
Legendary 40
If you think "this sounds like a job for an Expert", you look at that list and pick the Expert DC. You can then tweak it with another table to make it harder or easier. Making it easier is usually a -2 DC, a -5 DC if it's really easy, and -10 if it's incredibly easy. Harder follows the same pattern. So an "easy job for an Expert" would be DC 18. Given that you're probably no less than level 3 by the time you become Expert in a skill and you have a +3 ability score, that would mean you have a (3+4) proficiency and +3 ability = +10, so you need to roll an 8 to succeed. That does indeed look like it's on the easy side.
Simple DCs are good for "objective" DCs, like doing a task that's the same regardless of who tries.
"Subjective" DCs such as when you're using a skill against someone, work better with the level-based DCs. That's a table giving DCs that start at DC 14 for a level 0 challenge, and go up to 50 for a level 25 challenge. So DCs go up by 1.44 per level in a fairly even curve. Over 25 levels to stay even you'd need to collect a +11 apart from your just your level to keep up. This seems to match going up either to Legendary (+8) and increasing your ability score by +3 (doable with an item and 5th level increases), or you'd need to obtain some items that give a bonus.
That's the 0 to 25 view however, I suspect that in actual play (say, levels 1-15) if you take the occasional skill increase you'll actually be getting ahead of the curve. The book says:
"Note that PCs who invest in a skill become more likely
to succeed at a DC of their level as they increase in level,
and the listed DCs eventually become very easy for them."
And later on, describing the modifiers for easy/hard tasks:
"The adjustments’ names don’t translate to how hard a
task actually is for a PC or group of PCs, and adjustments
aren’t meant to balance out or replace PCs’ bonuses and
penalties. PCs who invest in a skill will become better and
better at that skill as they increase in level. For example, even
the best 1st-level PC has grim odds against an incredibly
hard 1st-level DC, with a huge chance of critical failure, but
by 20th level, an optimized character with a modicum of
magic or assistance can take down incredibly hard 20th-
level DCs over half the time, critically failing only on a 1. At
higher levels, many groups will find that the very hard DC is
more like standard for them; keep that in mind if you need
a check that presents a true challenge to a high level group."
This seems like a real shift from the playtest DC table which seemed to be built more to keep DCs challenging for the specialists while leaving everyone else behind.
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(How is defining a creature's stats for AMF any different then adding the Ex, Su, and Sp tags/flags? But I admit, it would mean more space used to write what ability is giving what bonus, which may means harder to read stats.)
It isn't. This is just something that PF2 doesn't bother with, so you have to add it back in if AMF is gonna be common and you want to maintain balance between PCs and monsters.