Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker


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Silver Crusade

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Psiphyre wrote:

^ Or it indicates that these fans who represent a 'sizable portion of "the fanbase"' are all in the same echo chamber...

<shrug>

--C.

And as DQ says, sufficiently loud and aggressive they drown out other voices.
Since thats like the 10th person I've seen get savagely demeaning towards people in response to criticism directed at a film I'm going to say no on that one. Detractors from the film hardly have a monopoly on loud and aggressive.

only 10th? You seem to have forgotten the absolute s@%+show that was TLJ forum on these boards. It and others shows who has the monopoly.


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Psiphyre wrote:

^ Or it indicates that these fans who represent a 'sizable portion of "the fanbase"' are all in the same echo chamber...

<shrug>

--C.

Not likely for a few reasons.

1) This much grarg did not develop around the force awakens (note: I am not saying NO grarg. Just not this much) If it was new and it bites was the main cause , TFA would have gotten more because it was the new thing.
I mean, star wars didn't go on the list with politics and relgion until TLJ. The echochamber just randomly pops up after movie 2 because....?

2) I don't think the "how it should have ended" people were watching the paizo threads. They still could have used it for their script.

3) It's not like geeks that liked the film are exactly shy on expressing their opinion (looks up) to make a case for the movie.

4) At some level the criticisms are independent of the viewer.

5) The reactions were pretty immediate. There wasn't any time to build up the echo chamber resonance.

DerNils wrote:
That is what I actually meant with hard cash - if enough People aren't bothered by the Internet rage, why would Disney or JJ care?

For disney you may have a point. JJ is human though which means he may not want to run right through the flames. He's a storyteller and although he doesn't believe in endings on his own stuff, I think he might recognize that he needs one for this and might recognize some of the points as legitimate.

Silver Crusade

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
1) This much grarg did not develop around the force awakens (note: I am not saying NO grarg. Just not this much)

Maybe that's because this grarg was continuously built from TFA's, which there was, plenty of. Something about pandering by having a woman and black man as the main character or something after 6 movies of a mostly white main cast.

Hmm.


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Rysky wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
1) This much grarg did not develop around the force awakens (note: I am not saying NO grarg. Just not this much)

Maybe that's because this grarg was continuously built from TFA's, which there was, plenty of. Something about pandering by having a woman and black man as the main character or something after 6 movies of a mostly white main cast.

Hmm.

And the crazy got stronger between 2015 and 2017.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
DerNils wrote:
That is what I actually meant with hard cash - if enough People aren't bothered by the Internet rage, why would Disney or JJ care?
For disney you may have a point. JJ is human though which means he may not want to run right through the flames. He's a storyteller and although he doesn't believe in endings on his own stuff, I think he might recognize that he needs one for this and might recognize some of the points as legitimate.

If he thinks some of the points are legitimate and can come up with good ways to address them, then he should do so. If he doesn't, internet rage shouldn't force him to do so. At least when that rage doesn't seem to have done the bottom line that much harm. If he's changing what he thinks the story needs to the internet meanies don't yell so much, that's not good.

Hopefully, he will realize that he needs an ending. Even if it's one that leaves the setting open for more stories.


thejeff wrote:
Rysky wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
1) This much grarg did not develop around the force awakens (note: I am not saying NO grarg. Just not this much)

Maybe that's because this grarg was continuously built from TFA's, which there was, plenty of. Something about pandering by having a woman and black man as the main character or something after 6 movies of a mostly white main cast.

Hmm.

And the crazy got stronger between 2015 and 2017.

I don't think people started caring about plot, characterization and internal story cohesion any more in those two years, and thats most of the complaints I'm seeing. It's beyond dishonest to compare those with other complaints.

Quote:
If he's changing what he thinks the story needs to the internet meanies don't yell so much, that's not good.

I think that would depend on whether it works or not. A voddo shark explanation would be harmful. A throwaway line about why something is happening usually works fine, like Finn being a product of brain washing (and not looking like Jengo Fett) rather than cloning came up fairly organically. (pun unintended...)


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Rysky wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
1) This much grarg did not develop around the force awakens (note: I am not saying NO grarg. Just not this much)

Maybe that's because this grarg was continuously built from TFA's, which there was, plenty of. Something about pandering by having a woman and black man as the main character or something after 6 movies of a mostly white main cast.

Hmm.

And the crazy got stronger between 2015 and 2017.

I don't think people started caring about plot, characterization and internal story cohesion any more in those two years, and thats most of the complaints I'm seeing. It's beyond dishonest to compare those with other complaints.

Quote:
If he's changing what he thinks the story needs to the internet meanies don't yell so much, that's not good.
I think that would depend on whether it works or not. A voddo shark explanation would be harmful. A throwaway line about why something is happening usually works fine, like Finn being a product of brain washing (and not looking like Jengo Fett) rather than cloning came up fairly organically. (pun unintended...)

I think that was essentially the point. If he sees the complaints as legitimate and has good ways to fix them, great. If he's just doing whatever it takes to get the internet meanies to shut up, not so good.


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It's weird, since I actually prefer TLJ over FA. I thought FA was largely a remake of earlier star wars films, rehashing the same stuff and not really organically expanding the series. I don't have much of any strong hopes for the concluding volume, which I am going to guess is going to be more of the same.

I know the prequels get thrashed, but recently watching them on TV (what else am I going to do in a hospital?), the prequels feel a lot more like star wars than the current films.


I like TLJ overall, a couple of complaints.

The prequels though... man, no one will ever convince me that those should be watched more. Well... maybe if the dialogue is completely rerecorded to completely change the story.


MMCJawa wrote:
It's weird, since I actually prefer TLJ over FA. I thought FA was largely a remake of earlier star wars films

It definitely was. But with a 30 year gap I was okay with doing that as a starting point.

Quote:
I know the prequels get thrashed, but recently watching them on TV (what else am I going to do in a hospital?), the prequels feel a lot more like star wars than the current films.

*backfoot headscratch*

I can see either the rehash complaint or it doesn't feel like star wars but... how are both possible?


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
It's weird, since I actually prefer TLJ over FA. I thought FA was largely a remake of earlier star wars films

It definitely was. But with a 30 year gap I was okay with doing that as a starting point.

I can see the remake argument - it did echo a lot of the beats in the original, but it took very different takes on them. Kind of like a deconstruction often does the same thing if reduced far enough, but the meanings are very different. FA didn't take it to that extent, but it didn't feel like a remake to me, even though many of the events were similar. Everything shifted around, roles were mixed up and that changed the significance of things that were superficially similar.


IMO trying to please the internet fans ruined the last one. I don't have high hopes for this one. I think the fact they are just redoing the same stories but with a bigger death star or bigger at-ats. Like we are due for a desert planet and a giant fuzzy bear planet for the next movie just following the formula.

Also complain about episode 1-3 all you want buy they still have the best action sequences of any of them.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
IMO trying to please the internet fans ruined the last one.

How?

The big internet complaint about FA is that ie was remakey/ haven't I seen this before? TLJ didn't really avoid that problem, and if it had I don't see how "hey can you do something else..." is such a narrow parameter that there's nowhere in it to make a good movie.

Pretty sure they tapped johnson for this before it hit the web geeks.


all the Hey they think X will happen! well then lets do the opposite to surprise them.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
all the Hey they think X will happen! well then lets do the opposite to surprise them.

Trying to see how reacting to set ups in movie 1 makes it the internets fault when the writer goes subversion for subversions sake on movie 2.

The writer could... not do subversion for sub versions sake? Treat it like a spice not a vegetable. Put a little more effort into making the message match the events on screen?

At the very least it's a two to tango type thing.


Oh yeah I mean obviously the writers etc. are primarily to blame. They should of just ignored all the garbage advice they were being inundated with. They might have thought they were clever by giving us something un-expected. It didn't work out whatever it was they were thinking.

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There are a lot of factors in play for this movie. There will be some course correction asked for by Disney due to the declining toy and merchandising sales after TLJ. I am more interested in how JJ will try to reconcile the various groups versus the actual movie itself.


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One point I think is worth noting is that toy sales were waaaaaay down for a lot of these new characters. Like, as far as merchandising goes, people just don't like the new characters. (Notably, it seems that favored characters are still selling quite nicely, so it's not weakness in the overall brand.)

Personally? I really didn't like TLJ, and I came from about as positive a starting place as possible. I used to watch Return of the Jedi every two or three days after school. For months. There were too many parts that felt utterly ham-fisted and absurd within the context of the universe.

Later, I saw some quotes from the director indicating that he liked creating movies where some people loved them and some people hated them. I feel... well, I feel like this was fundamentally inappropriate for a franchise movie that's had a lot of long-time, very dedicated fans. Fans who were already hesitant after a universal reboot relegating the Expanded Universe off to the side and of dubious canon. It didn't help when some of the new characters acted in utterly ridiculous ways.

I'm going to give Rise of Skywalker a chance because I've loved Star Wars for a long time. But it's going to make or break whether I go and see another Star Wars movie in the theater again.


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Rednal wrote:


Later, I saw some quotes from the director indicating that he liked creating movies where some people loved them and some people hated them.

It's not like that would not happened anyway. Pleasing everyone with a movie was impossible with the first one and it is even more impossible now.

And it is a difference between not liking something and writing or making videos talking about the "agenda" of the movie or just trying to sell made-up stuff as fact. I mean some people on youtube seem to make a habit of talking about the "agenda" of Studios for getting more women or minorities in lead roles. Seeing that they do that to every movie that fits that I wonder what their agenda is^^

Sovereign Court

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I think Rednal hit the nail right on the head. The problem with TLJ is Johnson had no appreciation for the film's place in the trilogy. He cut every tie to the previous film, and left nothing set up for the next. If you look at Empire, it too had a dark tone, but the entire film set up RotJ for a grand conclusion. I just don't see that happening here. I could be wrong, and JJ will surprise the hell out of us, but for me it would be a first from him.

That said, the high point of the modern saga for me is the characters. I really enjoy the spot light hitting multiple characters throughout both films. If there will be anything i'm positive will be great in TRoS, it will be seeing Rey, Finn, Poe, and Rose back in action.


Pan wrote:
I think Rednal hit the nail right on the head. The problem with TLJ is Johnson had no appreciation for the film's place in the trilogy. He cut every tie to the previous film, and left nothing set up for the next. If you look at Empire, it too had a dark tone, but the entire film set up RotJ for a grand conclusion. I just don't see that happening here. I could be wrong, and JJ will surprise the hell out of us, but for me it would be a first from him.

If true, that's the biggest problem with this trilogy - the directors had different ideas for where to go with it and there was no overall planning or direction.

That's possible, I suppose, but it seems odd to me they'd be that loose with such a major property. And can't really be blamed on either JJ or Johnson, someone should have been coordinating the whole affair. It's just sloppy not to do so.

Sovereign Court

thejeff wrote:
Pan wrote:
I think Rednal hit the nail right on the head. The problem with TLJ is Johnson had no appreciation for the film's place in the trilogy. He cut every tie to the previous film, and left nothing set up for the next. If you look at Empire, it too had a dark tone, but the entire film set up RotJ for a grand conclusion. I just don't see that happening here. I could be wrong, and JJ will surprise the hell out of us, but for me it would be a first from him.

If true, that's the biggest problem with this trilogy - the directors had different ideas for where to go with it and there was no overall planning or direction.

That's possible, I suppose, but it seems odd to me they'd be that loose with such a major property. And can't really be blamed on either JJ or Johnson, someone should have been coordinating the whole affair. It's just sloppy not to do so.

Well, JJ wasnt even supposed to direct part 9, so I'm guessing something went wrong with the plan.


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thejeff wrote:
Pan wrote:
I think Rednal hit the nail right on the head. The problem with TLJ is Johnson had no appreciation for the film's place in the trilogy. He cut every tie to the previous film, and left nothing set up for the next.

He didn't care about consistency at all, either with

-TFA
-ROS
-With the original trilogy
-with the physics of the universe
-with his own film.

It just meanders from one (undenabily cool looking, well shot scene) to the other. It's why I say it's a very post modern film. It actively disdains any kind of metaplot besides whats happening on screen right now.

Spoiler:

Luke, the guy who said "Yeah my father blew up a few planets, but i think there's some good in there..." tried to murderate his nephew in his sleep for...reasons.

The entire plot revolves around a low speed bronco chase, but hyperspace flight is a defining feature of the setting and of this same film. It's not like he's redefining how the brylark tree from the wookie homeworld works.

Hyperspace ramming works, but there are still giant ships.

We're told the Tie fighters need to be supported. We're shown them wrecking house.

Hyperscpace tracking is an impossibililty, a new cool technology. But Princess lea has one on her wrist. All they need to do is hide something the size of a pocket watch on a ship the size of an aircraft carrier.

Poes arc is supposed to be about learning to lead and not being a flyboy in the cockpit, but as a flyboy he gets stuff done but as a leader he makes terrible calls.

Holdo sacrifice yourself for whats important
Finn: NO WAIT DON"T! You're a main character!

We need to escape, but we can't use the lifeboat finn and rose take to canto bite for.. reasons. But we need to escape and we need to go to canto bite anyway so it has to be there.

There apparently WAS a plan. JJ left notes with at least hints of what he was setting up where he was going what things were supposed to mean etc.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Pan wrote:
I think Rednal hit the nail right on the head. The problem with TLJ is Johnson had no appreciation for the film's place in the trilogy. He cut every tie to the previous film, and left nothing set up for the next.

** spoiler omitted **

There apparently WAS a plan. JJ left notes with at least hints of what he was setting up where he was going what things were supposed to mean etc.

And if that's true, then it's a major screw up on the part of the studio to give Johnson free rein to ignore them, assuming he did.

OTOH, if you're planning a trilogy and you want it to be coherent, you should probably do something more than give one guy free rein for the first installment and leave a few notes for the next two. You really should lay out the major arcs in advance so everyone knows where they're going and what to set up for the others.


thejeff wrote:

OTOH, if you're planning a trilogy and you want it to be coherent, you should probably do something more than give one guy free rein for the first installment and leave a few notes for the next two.

But aren't studios evil for interfering with the pure creative artistic energies of their directors?


I bet Mark Hamill is now wishing his character would have died in the first movie like Harrison Ford's... :P


GM PDK wrote:
I bet Mark Hamill is now wishing his character would have died in the first movie like Harrison Ford's... :P

What if they do a reverse sixth sense and the "force ghost" is alive all along?


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
GM PDK wrote:
I bet Mark Hamill is now wishing his character would have died in the first movie like Harrison Ford's... :P
What if they do a reverse sixth sense and the "force ghost" is alive all along?

...alone, in a sea of utter madness, in the wake of the victory at the end of that Ewoks movie... the drunken thoughts of billions of sleeping people forming this impossible dreamscape that is Episodes VII through IX.

Sovereign Court

I am hoping to see some Sith force ghosts in the next film!


Very possible, but I am afraid you're going to see clones of the Emperor, an explanation that Snoke was one of them and knowing JJ, probably of Vader as well. Maybe multiple ones for Rey and Kylo to fight together.
Just so we can have a rehash of EVERYTHING in the Original Trilogy.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

DerNils wrote:

Very possible, but I am afraid you're going to see clones of the Emperor, an explanation that Snoke was one of them and knowing JJ, probably of Vader as well. Maybe multiple ones for Rey and Kylo to fight together.

Just so we can have a rehash of EVERYTHING in the Original Trilogy.

Well clones of the Emperor is actually something from the EU, so I wouldn't be opposed. Especially since we know clone technology was commonly used by the Empire to create whole legions of clone troopers. It's not like something out of nowhere, it actually fits in canon.


Why not see how Ewoks have evolved in the last several decades?


Ewoks?!

EWOKS!!!
:D

:p


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Orville Redenbacher wrote:
Why not see how Ewoks have evolved in the last several decades?

As long as they're still cannibals who slow-roast sentient beings, I'm in!

:D


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Quark Blast wrote:
Orville Redenbacher wrote:
Why not see how Ewoks have evolved in the last several decades?

As long as they're still cannibals who slow-roast sentient beings, I'm in!

:D

HOW DARE YOU.

They had no intention of slow roasting anyone.
They were going to be rotisserie
As is tradition...


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Did Ewoks eat each other? I don't think humans and Ewoks are the same species.


Does it still count as trolling if I simply say I saw the trailer and that it did nothing to heal my perception of this new trilogy?

#totallysavingmy$$$

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

You didn't make any derogatory remarks, so no.


Hmmm. Sometimes seems that mercy is unjust. lol


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So Ewoks are obviously carnivorous right? What do they eat? I didn't see any animals for them to hunt on their planet. Its a society of cannibals!


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Part of me wants to feed the haters to the Ewoks.

Scarab Sages

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Vidmaster7 wrote:
So Ewoks are obviously carnivorous right? What do they eat? I didn't see any animals for them to hunt on their planet. Its a society of cannibals!

You obviously didn't see the Ewok movies


Or cartoon!

(Although, to be fair, a lot of things were trying to eat the Ewoks in the show...)

Liberty's Edge

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I'm hoping in the next movie it's revealed that Ewoks eat Gunguns.


Charles Scholz wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
So Ewoks are obviously carnivorous right? What do they eat? I didn't see any animals for them to hunt on their planet. Its a society of cannibals!

You obviously didn't see the Ewok movies

I may have when I was knee high but I'm pretty sure their not cannon anyways.


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CapeCodRPGer wrote:
I'm hoping in the next movie it's revealed that Ewoks eat Gunguns.

Those poor, poor ewoks...


DeathQuaker wrote:
thejeff wrote:

I'm not really interested in rehashing the complaints about TLJ. I'm apparently not hooked into the geeky angry akashic record. I enjoyed it, despite some flaws - most of which didn't bother me at the time. Despite the nerdrage, I'm not at all convinced that's the experience of most of the audience. Or even most of the fans, however that's defined.

I'm all for a better story, but I'm not sure catering to nerdrage is the way to get there.

Recognizing I am a sample of one: I adored The Last Jedi so much I saw it twice in the theater (I rarely see a movie in the theater more than once even if I liked it). And yes, I am a nerd of the right age that the original trilogy was a massive part of my childhood. And indeed, I felt TLJ added to that experience for the most part, not took away. And I absolutely refuse to discuss it online (this post being exceptional) because you cannot discuss it online without some angry nerdrage douche jumping into your conversation to derail the discussion into why it was a travesty. And because the ragedouches live on the Internet 24/7 and can post at 10 times the rate normal humans can, it has become pointless to try to talk about it online -- yes, even about its flaws, which it did have -- because people like me are only going to be stomped on. So only the people who hate it post, because they are the only people super ragedouches will let have a word in edgewise (you are not a ragedouches for hating the movie; a normal person like most of you can hate it, but it's impossible to post about liking it and be left to have a sensible discussion about it). I have also talked to people who don't frequent certain corners of the Internet who loved TLJ and are surprised to hear some people hated it.

And I don't know about whether I'm the majority or minority, but I do know I have chosen to keep silent because of how loud the haters are. And that therefore I do think the hate online is a big ol echo chamber of a group that, no matter how large, is smaller...

why you didnt end this with "see you around, kid" is beyond me.


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Freehold DM wrote:
Part of me wants to feed the haters to the Ewoks.

They had a perfect opportunity to use y wings and didn't.

Yeeeees.. let the hate flow through you.... :)


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Part of me wants to feed the haters to the Ewoks.

They had a perfect opportunity to use y wings and didn't.

Yeeeees.. let the hate flow through you.... :)

I already said the movie would have been over in 5 minutes if they had Y wings.

Liberty's Edge

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New Poster

Well that pretty much uch confirms Palpatine is in it.

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