Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker


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Yeah that part has bugged me more then anything about the new trilogy. What was the point of the last set if It just spawned a larger more powerful army. Shouldn't these episodes have been more about the last of the empire being the rebels now?

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Would certainly have worked better but honestly at this point I rate the prequal trilogy better than the new one and they had freaking Jar Jar in them.


It's like who dropped the ball and let some army take over their universe again. Yeah at least the prequels had some awesome fight scenes.

Liberty's Edge

Analysis of the battles in Last Jedi.

It's long, about 30 minutes. But He makes great points.


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KahnyaGnorc wrote:

Episode 7 made almost everything from the original trilogy meaningless. The bad guys were more numerous, more powerful, and with a bigger super-weapon than ever before, while the good guys were fewer, weaker, and more out-gunned than ever before.

...but at least they got rid of Palpatine, right?

Episode 9: Hold my blue milk...

I'll give you Episode 7, but 8 gave me the exact opposite impression.

In Episode 4, we're presented with a vast Galactic Empire as the bad guys, with enough implied military hardware to subjugate most of the galactic populace. By contrast, the Rebels are presented as being a galaxy-wide obstacle to said galaxy-wide Empire. We know they're in possession of multiple bases that they use and then discard (Dantooine), presumably to stay ahead of the Empire's efforts to find them. And I never felt like the base on Yavin 4 was their only base.

In Episode 5, the impression of both the Rebels and the Empire as major military forces is reinforced. We see many more ships in Vader's battle group, and it's stated that there are other fleets besides that one. On the Rebels' side, we see a new base, transports that we didn't see in Episode 4, and at the end, a gathered Rebel fleet composed of ships we didn't see at Hoth (therefore, they came from somewhere else, further establishing that the Rebel Alliance is vast and all over the place. Losing not just Hoth, but all the equipment and personnel there, would have been a major setback, but still not the end of the conflict.

Episode 6 gives us even more, and while the battle of the Second Death Star is presented as very significant, I was still not under the impression that the Rebel fleet used to attack it was every single last scrap of equipment the Alliance had, nor that the Imperial fleet defending the Death Star was every ship the Empire had.

The Prequilogy maintains this impression. The Galactic Republic is vast in scope and the Separatist movement is just as big. Ships, fleets, and battles are all over the place.

Episode 7 maintains this impression, because when we see limited numbers of First Order ships, or only one Resistance base (and that base's complement of fighters), we take this to be a consequence of events in the movie moving so fast that other First Order or Resistance assets aren't able to come into play, rather than as a sign that they plain don't exist.

Episode 8, however, is where things get underwhelming. Apparently, the Resistance base wasn't the only base we saw, but the only base, period. They evacuate in the only three ships they have, period. And by the end of the movie, the Resistance's entire list of military assets is the Millenium Falcon and its personnel, across the entire galaxy, has been reduced to the Falcon's standing room only. And while we're not similarly told that the First Order fleet pursuing them has all of the ships the First Order possesses, one tends to judge a combatant by their opposition. Three ships' worth of Resistance assets is apparently a challenge for the First Order, so how underwhelming must they be?

Lively discussions come from people on the internet theorizing how the Empire and Star Trek's Federation would fare against each other. But based on the Episode 8, I feel like a conversation about the First Order wouldn't need to progress much beyond Voyager's Delta Flyer saying "Hold my beer...".


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The military bungling that made up the bulk of Episode 8 is a substantial part of why I have the movie as a whole in my "don't care for" pile.


Yeah someone should have had told Rain when he was doing this "Look if you're going to do Battlestar Galactica, you really need better ships..."


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Mm. XD; For some context, the Clone Wars had Armadas (the set of ships in a particular sector, not all of which were together) generally ranging from 1,000 to 5,000 warships, plus support vessels and starfighters. The way Episode 8 was presented, one or two squadrons would run roughshod over the entirety of the First Order - they don't come across as big enough to even consider moving a fleet (100-300 units), much less any larger unit. And how was the Republic dumb enough to have all their forces in a single star system?

-Sighs-

I have... issues... with Episode 8. Episode 9 is probably going to make or break the franchise for me. I've loved Star Wars so much I'm giving them one final chance.


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The reality is most likely that the back ground stuff is changed to whatever fits with the story they are trying to tell that movie. The veneer of a whole and living galaxy is paper thin.


Rednal wrote:

Mm. XD; For some context, the Clone Wars had Armadas (the set of ships in a particular sector, not all of which were together) generally ranging from 1,000 to 5,000 warships, plus support vessels and starfighters. The way Episode 8 was presented, one or two squadrons would run roughshod over the entirety of the First Order - they don't come across as big enough to even consider moving a fleet (100-300 units), much less any larger unit. And how was the Republic dumb enough to have all their forces in a single star system?

-Sighs-

I have... issues... with Episode 8. Episode 9 is probably going to make or break the franchise for me. I've loved Star Wars so much I'm giving them one final chance.

Armadas and fleets may have been mentioned and described, but I don't recall anything of that scale actually appearing in the Clone wars. Mostly they focused on relatively small groups, even in what appeared to be major actions.

It was the same in the original trilogy. The biggest battle scene might have qualified as a fleet. Maybe. And that would count support vessels or at least smaller warships.

Now, as said above, that wasn't necessarily everything the Empire or the Rebellion had available, but it still doesn't suggest the thousands of warships per sector.

Meh. Star Wars is inconsistent. Big surprise.

Personally, that the First Order shows up in 8 with an unprecedented new Mega Star Destroyer after the loss of their first super weapon in 7 suggests they have huge resources. Perhaps not on the level of the Empire, but closer too it than I'd thought from 7.


baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Well, since we also see the Death Star wreckage, that is either Yavin or Endor (or one of their moons).

Interestingly enough, both Yavin IV and Endor are themselves Moons.

Pretty sure RotJ is on the "forest moon of Endor". Rewatching the space battle scene, I don't see a shot of the planet itself (though the moon is displayed as Earth-sized). With how English is constructed, that means the moon is a moon of Endor, it isn't the moon named Endor.

In EP4, the diagrams clearly show that the rebel base is on a thing orbiting something else, it's why the Death Star can't fire immediately, but has to orbit around the larger object in order to bring the base into view. I don't think the movie clearly states whether the moon (talking about the smaller object) or the planet (the larger one) is Yavin IV. It's probably stated somewhere in one of the books, or many guides, but the movies often completely disregards similar small details from those sources.

So then, did the Death Star's crash into the moons? Or the planets those moons orbit? Supplemental sources say that Yavin 4 is the 4th moon around Yavin, so that means the Death Star wreckage could crash into any of those nearby bodies. The internet says Yavin is a red gas giant, but seeing as it's never really described in the movies, they aren't beholden to what a wiki says (or any of the sources that wiki used). The same thing is true of Endor. The wreckage could end up wherever they want it to end up, which means either Endor itself, or one of its moons (ie, the forest moon of Endor).

Since the Star Wars universe likes to depict planets with only one ecology, it is possible that the Death Star did not crash into one of the places we've seen already, since it was clearly an ocean or sea, neither of which we saw on Yavin 4 or the forest moon of Endor. I don't really favor either possibility, just pointing out the range of possible alternatives.

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Tectorman wrote:
Episode 8, however, is where things get underwhelming. Apparently, the Resistance base wasn't the only base we saw, but the only base, period. They evacuate in the only three ships they have, period. And by the end of the movie, the Resistance's entire list of military assets is the Millenium Falcon and its personnel, across the entire galaxy, has been reduced to the Falcon's standing room only. And while we're not similarly told that the First Order fleet pursuing them has all of the ships the First Order possesses, one tends to judge a combatant by their opposition. Three ships' worth of Resistance assets is apparently a challenge for the First Order, so how underwhelming must they be?

Actually, Leia asked for help from other resistance leaders but they didn't come.


Irontruth wrote:
baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Well, since we also see the Death Star wreckage, that is either Yavin or Endor (or one of their moons).

Interestingly enough, both Yavin IV and Endor are themselves Moons.

Pretty sure RotJ is on the "forest moon of Endor". Rewatching the space battle scene, I don't see a shot of the planet itself (though the moon is displayed as Earth-sized). With how English is constructed, that means the moon is a moon of Endor, it isn't the moon named Endor.

Apparently, both the moon and the planet are named Endor. And the suns of that system are Endor 1 and Endor 2.

Which is confusing, but almost makes sense if Endor (the moon) is the only inhabitable world in that system. That's the important thing and everything else is named in reference to it.
Which is probably how it happened behind the scenes. They named the moon, since that's what needed to be talked about on screen and didn't bother giving specific names to the other bodies in the system.


Charles Scholz wrote:
Tectorman wrote:
Episode 8, however, is where things get underwhelming. Apparently, the Resistance base wasn't the only base we saw, but the only base, period. They evacuate in the only three ships they have, period. And by the end of the movie, the Resistance's entire list of military assets is the Millenium Falcon and its personnel, across the entire galaxy, has been reduced to the Falcon's standing room only. And while we're not similarly told that the First Order fleet pursuing them has all of the ships the First Order possesses, one tends to judge a combatant by their opposition. Three ships' worth of Resistance assets is apparently a challenge for the First Order, so how underwhelming must they be?
Actually, Leia asked for help from other resistance leaders but they didn't come.

Even if they would/could help..

Resistance member: Princess Leia, we are willing to help. It will take a few days for us to gather the ships, personal and equipment. Can you hold out?


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Hence why they should have scattered their fleet instead of consolidating it down. Guerilla warfare 101, which the Resistance apparently slept through....


thejeff wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Well, since we also see the Death Star wreckage, that is either Yavin or Endor (or one of their moons).

Interestingly enough, both Yavin IV and Endor are themselves Moons.

Pretty sure RotJ is on the "forest moon of Endor". Rewatching the space battle scene, I don't see a shot of the planet itself (though the moon is displayed as Earth-sized). With how English is constructed, that means the moon is a moon of Endor, it isn't the moon named Endor.

Apparently, both the moon and the planet are named Endor. And the suns of that system are Endor 1 and Endor 2.

Which is confusing, but almost makes sense if Endor (the moon) is the only inhabitable world in that system. That's the important thing and everything else is named in reference to it.
Which is probably how it happened behind the scenes. They named the moon, since that's what needed to be talked about on screen and didn't bother giving specific names to the other bodies in the system.

I would actually imagine that behind the scenes changes were made to the script and someone forgot to go through the whole script and make sure it was changed completely, or a change was made to dialogue after a scene was filmed and no one noticed. Ackbar literally uses the phrase "forest moon of Endor", but the Emperor just calls it Endor.

I still stand by my "star wars logic" though, that the shot of the sea/ocean can't be on Endor, since in Star Wars, planets only ever have one kind of ecosystem. (being sarcastic here)

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I saw this trailer in the theater (when seeing Endgame). People started to applaud and cheer as soon as the Lucasfilm logo appeared, and roared in appreciation (yes, appreciation--clapping, sounds of "woot yes!" and the like) as the trailer finished.

I get the sense that what the general public feels and what the ubernerds are saying on the Internet about Star Wars are very different things. Me, I'm with the general public, if I'm going by that one theater audience at least.

And indeed that's all I'll have to say about Star Wars on the Internet for a good long while. I wish all those involved in its making the best of luck.


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I was there at the beginning as a teenager and I'll be there for the end some 42 years older.

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Vanity Fair Pictures


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Rednal wrote:

Mm. XD; For some context, the Clone Wars had Armadas (the set of ships in a particular sector, not all of which were together) generally ranging from 1,000 to 5,000 warships, plus support vessels and starfighters. The way Episode 8 was presented, one or two squadrons would run roughshod over the entirety of the First Order - they don't come across as big enough to even consider moving a fleet (100-300 units), much less any larger unit. And how was the Republic dumb enough to have all their forces in a single star system?

-Sighs-

I have... issues... with Episode 8. Episode 9 is probably going to make or break the franchise for me. I've loved Star Wars so much I'm giving them one final chance.

If you love star wars so much you can deal with this, you should be okay.


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...I mean, I subscribe to the Darth Jar Jar theory, so that particular bit is actually very easy to tolerate. XD


Rednal wrote:
...I mean, I subscribe to the Darth Jar Jar theory, so that particular bit is actually very easy to tolerate. XD

that you and others are willing to entertain a mind-bending fan theory to save the character speaks volumes. You'll be okay, good movie or not.

Because any movie with this in it is bad.


The funny rabbit stepped in the poopy.


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Let me put it this way: I used to watch Return of the Jedi approximately every two days after school. ...For, like, the whole school year. I want to enjoy Star Wars movies, and I'm willing to be very, very generous about the film to do so. XD (...Which is why I was shocked to find I despised TLJ. I'm not exactly hard to please when it comes to Star Wars movies.)

However much I like it, though, there is a point where I just can't take it anymore. So I'm really hoping ROS is a good movie that can save the franchise for me.


If RoS turns to turkey I'll still have the one shot tales like "Rogue One" to fall back on. If they kill the Skywalker Saga like a horse with a broken leg I'll be very disappointed, but reaching back upthread to something I said earlier, Star Wars was there for me as an awkward, nerdy teen and actually did give me hope there was something that I could escape to that was more wonderful than anything I'd seen or read up to that point. It was there for me and I'll be there for it, holding its hand as it breathes its last.

Liberty's Edge

I have faith in JJ. He’s a smart guy, an excellent film maker, and he knows what’s tidinh on this one.

I think this will be an amazing movie


I really hope you're right, Marc.


DungeonmasterCal wrote:

If RoS turns to turkey I'll still have the one shot tales like "Rogue One" to fall back on. If they kill the Skywalker Saga like a horse with a broken leg I'll be very disappointed, but reaching back upthread to something I said earlier, Star Wars was there for me as an awkward, nerdy teen and actually did give me hope there was something that I could escape to that was more wonderful than anything I'd seen or read up to that point. It was there for me and I'll be there for it, holding its hand as it breathes its last.

...your thoughts on the above link?


The Jar Jar compilation? I appreciate the effort that went into putting it together...lol. The prequels dealt a heavy blow to the franchise but it held together. This time, however, I don't think it's going to work.


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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
The prequels dealt a heavy blow to the franchise but it held together. This time, however, I don't think it's going to work.

Hard to say why that might be the case, unless it's just the straw that broke the camel's back.

Derivative as I found The Force Awakens and for all of the profound, deep-seated flaws that mean The Last Jedi is a movie I'll only be able to watch again with either heavy editing or a license to talk through it, neither one sticks in my craw as badly as the prequel trilogy did.


Cole Deschain wrote:


Derivative as I found The Force Awakens and for all of the profound, deep-seated flaws that mean The Last Jedi is a movie I'll only be able to watch again with either heavy editing or a license to talk through it, neither one sticks in my craw as badly as the prequel trilogy did.

It's much harder to mess up characters in a prequel (because you know they'll get better and become the characters you know and love eventually) as opposed to a sequel where the characters you know and love are being written and could become something else completely.

Has anyone acknowledged the... issues with the last jedi and the geek reaction to it? Or are they just going ahead as if everything was fine.


I kind of doubt it - I mean, what is more interesting - internet outrage or the language of hard cash? It's not like Last Jedi bombed or anything. But as of now, it is completely impossible to tell what will happen, as
A) They had no plan going in
B) Any semblance of a plan was smashed by Rian "I didn't like where JJ was going"
C) JJ is back and will do whatever.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
It's much harder to mess up characters in a prequel (because you know they'll get better and become the characters you know and love eventually) as opposed to a sequel where the characters you know and love are being written and could become something else completely.

I disagree. To the tune of an almost perfect reversal.


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DerNils wrote:
I kind of doubt it - I mean, what is more interesting - internet outrage or the language of hard cash?

I don't think JJ abrams wants to make a movie fans are unhappy with. I don't think he'd be happy with it (on the other hand, endings...aren't his thing)


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
DerNils wrote:
I kind of doubt it - I mean, what is more interesting - internet outrage or the language of hard cash?
I don't think JJ abrams wants to make a movie fans are unhappy with. I don't think he'd be happy with it (on the other hand, endings...aren't his thing)

But to make that argument you'd have to accept that the internet outrage represents the actual fanbase and I'm not at all convinced that's true. I mean, I'm a geek and I'm not outraged by either movie. I could critique some things, but I enjoyed them both.

The loudest most upset voices aren't always the majority, even when they dominate the conversation.


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This has actually caused a rift between my best friend and myself. He hated the last movie so badly he refuses to ever watch anything Star Wars related again. I think he's acting like a child over it. Sure, the movies were a big part of our lives and such growing up and as adults, but to...anyway.

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If you edit out half of the Finn-Poe-Rose plot, it is a decent movie.


thejeff wrote:


The loudest most upset voices aren't always the majority, even when they dominate the conversation.

When they're right they're right. I only need to accept/hope that abrams can see that. I don't think the folks at disney really care. It doesn't cost them any money to have a better story there and might make them SLIGHTLY more if the word of mouth is good instead of people staying home from TLJ.

I see a lot of commonality on the nerd rage that's hard to refute. I mean unless we're all connected on some sort of geeky angry akashic (aKashyyyk?) record the complaints about the movie were caused by the movie.


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Charles Scholz wrote:
If you edit out half of the Finn-Poe-Rose plot, it is a decent movie.

But it's a terrible movie as part of a series. It's a post modern mess that rejects all overarching narratives that get in the way of cool scenes, which includes things like characters, plot, and the concept of a reality that has to apply to a created universe even moreso than to reality.


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I'm not really interested in rehashing the complaints about TLJ. I'm apparently not hooked into the geeky angry akashic record. I enjoyed it, despite some flaws - most of which didn't bother me at the time. Despite the nerdrage, I'm not at all convinced that's the experience of most of the audience. Or even most of the fans, however that's defined.

I'm all for a better story, but I'm not sure catering to nerdrage is the way to get there.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

(on the other hand, endings...aren't his thing)

Talent for understatement you have, yes.

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thejeff wrote:

I'm not really interested in rehashing the complaints about TLJ. I'm apparently not hooked into the geeky angry akashic record. I enjoyed it, despite some flaws - most of which didn't bother me at the time. Despite the nerdrage, I'm not at all convinced that's the experience of most of the audience. Or even most of the fans, however that's defined.

I'm all for a better story, but I'm not sure catering to nerdrage is the way to get there.

Recognizing I am a sample of one: I adored The Last Jedi so much I saw it twice in the theater (I rarely see a movie in the theater more than once even if I liked it). And yes, I am a nerd of the right age that the original trilogy was a massive part of my childhood. And indeed, I felt TLJ added to that experience for the most part, not took away. And I absolutely refuse to discuss it online (this post being exceptional) because you cannot discuss it online without some angry nerdrage douche jumping into your conversation to derail the discussion into why it was a travesty. And because the ragedouches live on the Internet 24/7 and can post at 10 times the rate normal humans can, it has become pointless to try to talk about it online -- yes, even about its flaws, which it did have -- because people like me are only going to be stomped on. So only the people who hate it post, because they are the only people super ragedouches will let have a word in edgewise (you are not a ragedouches for hating the movie; a normal person like most of you can hate it, but it's impossible to post about liking it and be left to have a sensible discussion about it). I have also talked to people who don't frequent certain corners of the Internet who loved TLJ and are surprised to hear some people hated it.

And I don't know about whether I'm the majority or minority, but I do know I have chosen to keep silent because of how loud the haters are. And that therefore I do think the hate online is a big ol echo chamber of a group that, no matter how large, is smaller than it thinks it is.

And I expect the creators do take in all fan feedback... But that includes people coming up to them at cons and writing fanmail that includes positive feedback, not just rage on NerdRage69's Twitter feed and that of his 27 socks.

And now I will retreat to the corner of the Internet where people do not discuss Star Wars.


What are these sock devices of which you speak?


thejeff wrote:
I'm not at all convinced that's the experience of most of the audience. Or even most of the fans, however that's defined.

Not saying it's most of the audience or most of the fans. Just a fairly sizable portion of the top ( basement?) of the geek hierarchy chart where people are into it enough to do blogs and podcasts and the like panned it hard and panned it legitimately and panned it for pretty much the same reasons. That isn't typical nerd rage over nothing it indicates there's some issues with the story and a lot of them could have been very easily ironed out.


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^ Or it indicates that these fans who represent a 'sizable portion of "the fanbase"' are all in the same echo chamber...

<shrug>

--C.


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Psiphyre wrote:

^ Or it indicates that these fans who represent a 'sizable portion of "the fanbase"' are all in the same echo chamber...

<shrug>

--C.

And as DQ says, sufficiently loud and aggressive they drown out other voices.


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That is what I actually meant with hard cash - if enough People aren't bothered by the Internet rage, why would Disney or JJ care? People vote with their wallets, not their online presence.
I am massively annoyed by TLJ, and was part of the online community that delighted in panning it - but that doesn't mean I am in any way representative of the current Star Wars viewers.

What I am sure about is that there is no way to make this trilogy in any way coherent and satisfying to me. The storytelling and toneshift between TFA and TLJ are too big, and there are simply no clear clues as to where the third part should lead. It may well become a good movie, in the way that RoS was better than PM and AotC, but it will not become a trilogy with a clear and interesting arc anymore. That ship has sailed with TLJ.

The only thing JJ has going for him is that Rise of Skywalker may well be the last part of this trilogy, but no one in his right mind expects it to be any kind of end to the Star Wars Universe. Not the way RotJ was. So he can get away with using his famous mystery boxes, because he knows some other filmmakers/TV series can pick it up or not.


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thejeff wrote:
Psiphyre wrote:

^ Or it indicates that these fans who represent a 'sizable portion of "the fanbase"' are all in the same echo chamber...

<shrug>

--C.

And as DQ says, sufficiently loud and aggressive they drown out other voices.

Since thats like the 10th person I've seen get savagely demeaning towards people in response to criticism directed at a film I'm going to say no on that one. Detractors from the film hardly have a monopoly on loud and aggressive.

Shadow Lodge

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That was savagely demeaning?

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Psiphyre wrote:

^ Or it indicates that these fans who represent a 'sizable portion of "the fanbase"' are all in the same echo chamber...

<shrug>

--C.

And as DQ says, sufficiently loud and aggressive they drown out other voices.
Since thats like the 10th person I've seen get savagely demeaning towards people in response to criticism directed at a film I'm going to say no on that one. Detractors from the film hardly have a monopoly on loud and aggressive.

only 10th? You seem to have forgotten the absolute s!@+show that was TLJ forum on these boards. It and others shows who has the monopoly.

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