Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker


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The original phrase was "Trekkie." But as the mainstream became aware of Trekkies they began to use the phrase derogatorily, so Trekkies renamed themselves "Trekkers" which they thought sounded cooler. As years have passed, with "geek" itself becoming cool, the distinction has been lost.

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DeathQuaker wrote:


Quote:
I believe thinking fans dont want non saga SW stories is an oversimplification of Solo's problems.
That's fair, but I am just not seeing the energy pushing for films like it. Are you?

For Solo? No, nobody really wanted this film. Just add that to another of the film's obstacles. Though, folks were ecstatic about Rogue One. They are also jumping into Mando, which to be fair is television, but a non saga story none the less. I still think there is appetite for SW stories they just need to be smart about them. Especially, since SW doesnt have the vast breath of characters that Marvel does.

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I had noted Rogue One did well. I am just not sure as, a sample of one, if its success can be repeated. It uniquely filled in a gap/question created by the original saga, and while there are other gaps to fill, I haven't seen a lot of clamoring for that. And the very nature of Rogue One and how it ended means it can't have a sequel.

The Mandalorian does seem to be doing well (not something I am interested in personally but I am not the target audience). Would that suggest the future of Star Wars is more TV/streaming than movies?

I'm curious about what fans really, specifically want besides, you know, "more."


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More Rogue One.

Your dislike of the mandalorian makes me weep.

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I dont read any SW novels or comics so im not sure what is out there. Tho, Rogue one and mando make me believe the franchise can grow beyond Skywalker.

All this just makes me want a Mass Effect movie, which is probably not going to happen...


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I just realized:

The existence of a Kylo Ren implies the existence of a Kylo Stimpy.

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Freehold DM wrote:

More Rogue One.

Your dislike of the mandalorian makes me weep.

Not dislike, just not my thing. I would have to watch it to decide I disliked it. That would require my having the streaming service required (I don't) and the time to decide to watch something I don't think I would enjoy (I don't).

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So two years ago this guy predicted...

Spoilers really really really spoilers:

Rey was a descendant of Palpatine. Using evidence in the Force Awakens and the trailer for the Last Jedi.

I don't know what this channel is usually like, but this particular video is really fascinating in retrospect. To me personally, what I found really interesting is that Rey's leitmotif is very similar, it turns out, to Palpatine's in terms of notes/arpeggios used (with Palp's being very dark and broody and Rey's being very light of course). Did John Williams know all along?

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Freehold DM wrote:
More Rogue One.

Given the survival rate of that mission, that would be difficult.


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Lord Fyre wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
More Rogue One.
Given the survival rate of that mission, that would be difficult.

We were talking about this last week at work.

Rogue One series. Each episode a new impossible mission in which everyone dies. Next episode, same cast, new mission. No explanation.


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Whoa.

I wasn't planning to write this post, for two reasons. One is that I figured "What could I say about episode 9 that hasn't already been said on this thread?" Another reason is that my views on the previous Star Wars movies are very different from those of many others, so why should anyone care what I think?

For one thing, I LIKED the prequels. When I'm in the mood for a space opera movie, I typically choose the "next" Star Wars movie, cycling through episodes 1 through 6. I expect many people don't regard the prequels to be of the same order of magnitude as the first 3 movies.

For another thing, I DISLIKED Episode 7. As I said previously on these boards - thus earning the ire and disdain of some people - Episode 7 gave us nothing new; almost EVERYTHING had been done before.

And I earned the same from more people by saying the same of Episode 8. 8 had one subplot that started out good: that of Rose. But even that grew unsatisfying as it progressed.

So when my daughter dragged my son and myself to see Episode 9 in the theater, I didn't expect to like it. And here's my point for those who might feel the way I do about 7 and 8: I enjoyed parts of ep. 9. I still winced at some of the obvious copying of the previous movies, but 9 had enough surprises to keep me interested. But I still don't hold it in the same regard as 1 through 6.

I don't think I'll delve too much into details because, like I said, people have already given those details in previous posts on this thread. However, when I read this thread, I was surprised to discover that no one said anything about The Rise of Skywalker since Thursday! This thread got de-railed in several other directions.

Well, okay. That's not QUITE true. DeathQuaker made one relevant remark:

DeathQuaker wrote:

So two years ago this guy predicted...

** spoiler omitted **

You know, my son once suggested that, just as an idle speculation. After my kids and I exited the theater, I said to my son "Hey, your theory was right!" But he had no memory of making that prediction.

And another thing: some people have ridiculed my criticism of 7 and 8 for copying too much from 4 through 6. I guess those people might laugh at my reaction to 9. When I left the theater, I remarked to my kids "You know how that movie should have ended?" I went on to suggest that...

The Rise of Skywalker:
...Rey could have mortally wounded Kylo Ren and then let HIM kill Palpatine. Then Palpatine's new body would die.

And my son replied "Isn't that more or less how Episode 6 ended?"

Huh. Maybe it's too difficult not to copy what went before. Now I'm guilty of it too.


I saw it. I liked it. I would put it, along with Force Awakens, between RotJ (the worst of the originals) and RotS (the best of the prequels)


I don't really get the "copying" argument. I mean sure, in the broadest of broad strokes, there are similarities, but especially in this one they don't really go beyond "There's a big space battle at the end going on in parallel with a confrontation between the Force wielders."

Even in the previous two the echoes were mostly just that. Similar sequences but with different characters, different roles and motivations.


thejeff wrote:

I don't really get the "copying" argument. I mean sure, in the broadest of broad strokes, there are similarities, but especially in this one they don't really go beyond "There's a big space battle at the end going on in parallel with a confrontation between the Force wielders."

Spoiler:

A space sorcerer is using the battle and the protagonists friends are dying argument to get said protagonist to join them. It's even the SAME space wizard.

While the main protagonist is doing this, their friends are attacking a secondary objective (the force field generator vs. the navigation beacons)

The bad guy is redeemed and sacrifices themselves so the good guy can live


BigNorseWolf wrote:
thejeff wrote:

I don't really get the "copying" argument. I mean sure, in the broadest of broad strokes, there are similarities, but especially in this one they don't really go beyond "There's a big space battle at the end going on in parallel with a confrontation between the Force wielders."

Spoiler:
A space sorcerer is using the battle and the protagonists friends are dying argument to get said protagonist to join them. It's even the SAME space wizard.

While the main protagonist is doing this, their friends are attacking a secondary objective (the force field generator vs. the navigation beacons)

The bad guy is redeemed and sacrifices themselves so the good guy can live

Spoiler:

Sure as I said, in the broadest of strokes. Given how core dark side temptation is to Star Wars, much of that is unavoidable.
Once you get past the broad strokes, everything's different. Ben is already redeemed before the finale and is coming to try to rescue. He doesn't kill the space wizard, she does.
She's not going there for anything like the reasons Luke does in RotJ.

I think I said way back about TFA - It's telling a very different story within the same broad outline, which is an interesting stylistic choice, not in my opinion a failure of imagination.

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It's rough but I haven't seen the movie yet.
The first Star Wars film I haven't rushed to see in the theaters since Episode VI (when I was like 4; it was the first movie I ever saw in the theater).

I'm sure it'll be fine, and can't be worse than Phantom Menace. But I really, really liked The Last Jedi. (I know... I know...) And while that movie was hugely divisive and split the fanbase, it didn't do so intentionally. Johnson didn't set out to piss off anyone and likely genuinely hoped people would like it.

But it seems like Abrams went out of his way to give TLJ the finger in TRoS. (That's how it's been described to me. The film goes out of its way to flip off TLJ.)
And that really rubs me the wrong way. Because it's telling me he doesn't respect or value that segment of the audience. He couldn't just go off and do his own movie that tried to reunite the fans or appeal to everyone. Instead, he sought to win back one percentage of the fans while alienating the others. He picked a side. And that feels needless.

And there's just so much negativity on the internet about this. When I expressed the above elsewhere online I got a "now you know how people felt after TLJ!!" But... I already did as I didn't like Force Awakens. And, really, why would you WANT someone to be disappointed by a franchise they love? That's just a schadenfreude/ spite smoothie.
As much as I loved it, I wouldn't wish a second TLJ on people: that'd just be mean. I want something that tries to entertain everyone.


Jester David wrote:

It's rough but I haven't seen the movie yet.

The first Star Wars film I haven't rushed to see in the theaters since Episode VI (when I was like 4; it was the first movie I ever saw in the theater).

I'm sure it'll be fine, and can't be worse than Phantom Menace. But I really, really liked The Last Jedi. (I know... I know...) And while that movie was hugely divisive and split the fanbase, it didn't do so intentionally. Johnson didn't set out to piss off anyone and likely genuinely hoped people would like it.

But it seems like Abrams went out of his way to give TLJ the finger in TRoS. (That's how it's been described to me. The film goes out of its way to flip off TLJ.)
And that really rubs me the wrong way. Because it's telling me he doesn't respect or value that segment of the audience. He couldn't just go off and do his own movie that tried to reunite the fans or appeal to everyone. Instead, he sought to win back one percentage of the fans while alienating the others. He picked a side. And that feels needless.

And there's just so much negativity on the internet about this. When I expressed the above elsewhere online I got a "now you know how people felt after TLJ!!" But... I already did as I didn't like Force Awakens. And, really, why would you WANT someone to be disappointed by a franchise they love? That's just a schadenfreude/ spite smoothie.
As much as I loved it, I wouldn't wish a second TLJ on people: that'd just be mean. I want something that tries to entertain everyone.

Without giving anything, I wouldn't put too much credence in any of the internet graar over this. If you go into it looking for ways Abrams was giving TLJ the finger, you'll probably find them. If you don't, maybe not so much.

To quote Obi-Wan about an earlier blatant retcon: "you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

I do think the trilogy could have used more overall direction to keep the pieces together and make sure each part more elegantly set up the next or picked up the pieces from the previous, but I'm not convinced they were deliberately trying to screw each other.

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I think JJ did a great job of returning the focus on the skywalkers while not cutting out the possibility of the force moving beyond them. He walked a tightrope between the saga and where Rian was going (beyond the saga). So I dont think it was a finger at all to TLJ.

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thejeff wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
thejeff wrote:

I don't really get the "copying" argument. I mean sure, in the broadest of broad strokes, there are similarities, but especially in this one they don't really go beyond "There's a big space battle at the end going on in parallel with a confrontation between the Force wielders."

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

I think I said way back about TFA - It's telling a very different story within the same broad outline, which is an interesting stylistic choice, not in my opinion a failure of imagination.

IDK move away from the broad strokes and...

TFA spoiler:
Rebel gives mcguffin to android who escapes on desert planet. Droid found by orphan who is a scrapper and a good pilot. Orphan also finds out has enhanced force ability. Joins up with resistance for the big fight. Deathstar threatens rebels and needs to be taken out. Chewie and Han must sneak in and drop shields first so rebel pilots can take it out...

I think TLJ and RoS did a better job avoiding nostalgic traps and just doing their own thing while tipping their hat to nostalgia. YMMV


Pan wrote:
thejeff wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
thejeff wrote:

I don't really get the "copying" argument. I mean sure, in the broadest of broad strokes, there are similarities, but especially in this one they don't really go beyond "There's a big space battle at the end going on in parallel with a confrontation between the Force wielders."

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

I think I said way back about TFA - It's telling a very different story within the same broad outline, which is an interesting stylistic choice, not in my opinion a failure of imagination.

IDK move away from the broad strokes and...

** spoiler omitted **

I think TLJ and RoS did a better job avoiding nostalgic traps and just doing their own thing while tipping their hat to nostalgia. YMMV

In my mind those are still pretty broad strokes - Rey is an orphan, but very different from Luke in backstory. I would, for example, dispute Luke as a "scrapper". Luke's a naive farm boy, orphaned but raised in a happy family - Rey is essentially living on her own, by her wits as far as we can see. The entire middle of the movie is different. There's no raid on the enemy base to rescue a Leia analogue, instead a similar thing comes later, but shifted because it's our Luke figure who's been captured. Unlike Leia, she mostly escapes on her own. The space battle is different - in ANH it was just a space battle. Here all the action is the ground team with the destruction being basically a fait accompli once the shields are blown up.

The big set pieces are similar, but who's doing them and their motivations are very different.

Spoiler:
Throughout both trilogies, Darth Vader and Kylo Ren are the best examples of what I'm talking about. Superficially, they're the same - Masked and armored Force villains who are redeemed by our hero at the end - but everything else about their characters and their arcs is completely different. I find that approach one of the better things about the series. More interesting than if it had been completely different.


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Jester David wrote:
And while that movie was hugely divisive and split the fanbase, it didn't do so intentionally. Johnson didn't set out to piss off anyone and likely genuinely hoped people would like it.

I'm honestly not sure about that.

If someone hands you a crate of Faberge eggs and says "here juggle these" I can see why someone might do a very boring three egg juggle. (this is kind of what the Abrams movies were)

If you say "Well i don't cozen to this "as high as my head" rule for juggling why don't we go as high as the ceiling. You know what, ceilings are a psychological concept we don't need them" and start chucking Faberge eggs into the ceiling fan... you had better be a good of enough showman to pull it off and change juggling forever.

Johnson... was not. He just smashed the eggs into the ceiling, called everyone stupid for liking them in the first place, whined that he wasn't understood and touted how awesome he was for subverting peoples expectations of what juggling was. Oh, right, and someone needs those eggs for act III.

Hanlons Razor only gets you so far.

Quote:


But it seems like Abrams went out of his way to give TLJ the finger in TRoS. (That's how it's been described to me. The film goes out of its way to flip off TLJ.)

The film doesn't go out of its way to give TLJ the finger. There is NO path, there is no direction, there is no movement in a star wars universe without undoing TLJ because TLJ undid everything that made a star wars universe and the story HAD to go back. Its like someone giving you a bear hug and then complaining when you touch them by walking into them... well.. Yes. Your other options are rather limited.

What would the Rise of skywalker be about to be the finale of a trilogy and build on where the force awakens left it... with luke dead, snoke dead, the entire rebellion down to one bathroom on the millenium falcon?

The only thing that got a deliberate chuck into the bin was the holdo maneuver.. and it needed it. You cannot have an epic fleet battle, death stars, ginormous ships to take out if the solution to anything bigger than a volkswagon is to strap a coffee can onto a warp drive and take it out.

"Giant imposing space ship? Bob, get the SpacePS truck and do a holdo maneuver into that thing

"Death star.. what are we on now? 12? Someone hook a droid up to that space yacht and take care of it.

Either half of star wars had to go into the bin or the holdo manuever had to go in the bin. *punt*

Quote:
And that really rubs me the wrong way. Because it's telling me he doesn't respect or value that segment of the audience. He couldn't just go off and do his own movie

No. he can't. because he's finishing up a trilogy, something Rian Johnson paid absolutely zero heed to.

Quote:
And there's just so much negativity on the internet about this. When I expressed the above elsewhere online I got a "now you know how people felt after TLJ!!" But... I already did as I didn't like Force Awakens.

I didn't need JJ abrams to wi I just wanted Rian Johnson to lose.. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...

Okay i got that out of my system

MUAAHAHhahahaha..

Ok most of it.

There is not liking something and there is loathing something. I absolutely hate post modernism and star wars is the last place I go to see it. Then there was a certain segment of TLJ fans that see having some very specific and well evidenced problem with a film as license to cast vague, unevidenced aspersions against other fans as people.

I don't think that rift is going anywhere anytime soon.

Quote:
And, really, why would you WANT someone to be disappointed by a franchise they love?

Revenge of the nerds?

Slightly more seriously, because if the studios can't see where and how they messed up they're just going to do it again. If Someone that messed up and said "my bad" they might change their behavior. Someone that messed up and said "you just don't understand how awesome i am. " is going to keep messing up.


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I really dont see how Holdo lightspeeding into an opposing fleet is a bad thing. It is a desperate maneuver, not one you see every day, and not something that gets pulled off often. Hell, in just about every Star Wars work the dangers of such a thing are explained(from dusting crops to the movie it happened in with tons of short stories and comics and such in between with a MUCH lighter version happening in Star Wars Rebels). Lightspeed is dangerous and poorly understood, and enough goes wrong using it that I doubt any one in a battle would see it as a sane tactic. As an aside, I notice the people who have an issue with it TEND to be the same ones who demand the DM be okay with their character breaking a insert the name of that famous magical item here that will kill the insert name of dangerous monster here and somehow allow them and their friends to live. I will put the nerd rage towards that on the same shelf with people explaining how Chewbacca getting a moon dropped on him is somehow okay/how after peace breaks out in the galaxy Corellia is ready to fight everyone else and half the rebel alliance says "okay"/Luke Skywalker being an NPC after the movies and doing NOTHING to save the universe after demonstrating he could easily(ostensibly to give new characters book time, but still).


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

Revenge of the nerds?

Slightly more seriously, because if the studios can't see where and how they messed up they're just going to do it again. If Someone that messed up and said "my bad" they might change their behavior. Someone that messed up and said "you just don't understand how awesome i am. " is going to keep messing up

You mean like how every fan has done with their fanfiction since before the word was an accepted part of the lexicon? Come now. This is nothing new.


Freehold DM wrote:
I really dont see how Holdo lightspeeding into an opposing fleet is a bad thing. It is a desperate maneuver, not one you see every day

But it is one we should see every movie because we always put the rebels in a desperate situation. Whenever one pilot (or bricky) is worth losing to secure the objective it should be the go to tactic. If a ship or moon sized base is going to blow your planet up every available ship should be trying this. Any ship thats going to take out 2 or more of your ships (ie, anything bigger than a tie fighter) and this becomes the optimal manuever. Random pilot guy is absolutely right: we should be trying a Holdo maneuver.

Being able to do this makes anything bigger than a tie fighter obsolete. It should change the entire face of warfare. (or warfare really should have changed before that. Why build a death star when every freighter is capable of taking out a planet?)

So either it gets tossed under the buss, or we have no reason to have big scary pizza slice shaped shiped and giant death moons.

toss
thump thump
beep beeep beeep beeep thumpthump beep beep
thump thump.


Freehold DM wrote:


You mean like how every fan has done with their fanfiction since before the word was an accepted part of the lexicon? Come now. This is nothing new.

There's a reason the story of Bignorsespacewolf tottallynotaselfinsertwalker is written on dead trees and locked in a box burried in the back yard.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
I really dont see how Holdo lightspeeding into an opposing fleet is a bad thing. It is a desperate maneuver, not one you see every day

But it is one we should see every movie because we always put the rebels in a desperate situation. Whenever one pilot (or bricky) is worth losing to secure the objective it should be the go to tactic. If a ship or moon sized base is going to blow your planet up every available ship should be trying this. Any ship thats going to take out 2 or more of your ships (ie, anything bigger than a tie fighter) and this becomes the optimal manuever. Random pilot guy is absolutely right: we should be trying a Holdo maneuver.

Being able to do this makes anything bigger than a tie fighter obsolete. It should change the entire face of warfare. (or warfare really should have changed before that. Why build a death star when every freighter is capable of taking out a planet?)

So either it gets tossed under the buss, or we have no reason to have big scary pizza slice shaped shiped and giant death moons.

toss
thump thump
beep beeep beeep beeep thumpthump beep beep
thump thump.

arent you forgetting the empire created technology specifically to counter this via gravity wells?

Dont know if the first order kept it, but that was the cornerstone of empire tactics.

Also, regarding the bold, it really, really isnt. At this point I am going to assume you are being silly, as numerous in movie, game and world points out that a ship will explode when it makes contact with a planet or star. This maneuver works fine against other ships though. And has been shown multiple times to do so. I think this is another case of fans noticing something and attributing it to someone when it has been done multiple times in universe, quietly.


I want a Star Wars movie featuring a fat computer engineer hacking into the galactic Holonet to control the outcome of things. With Gal Gadot as his long-time girlfriend working out in the background and making smoothies for him.

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I have no interest in engaging with most of the arguments above, but I do want to note that, speaking as a holder of a Master's degree in literature, there is nothing particularly postmodern about Star Wars: the Last Jedi or in Rian Johnson's direction, or in any other Star Wars, ever. It wasn't even that narratively subversive. Defying some loud nerd theories on the Internet isn't subversive or a wildly outre thing to do to text. One could make some arguments about some fan reactions being postmodern (e.g., fans choosing to reject canon and substitute in their own fanon for how they think things happened/should have happened is a po-mo interpretation of the text), but the film itself isn't. Defying a small but loud group's really specific predictions/expectations isn't enough to make something po-mo. Maybe someone nerdier than me will go into a whacky semiotics-driven analysis of TLJ and prove me wrong, but that's what I think.

Re: thejeff's spoiler, with lots and lots and lots of spoilers:

I liked Kylo Ren's arc because of the parallels it had with Vader's, which is different from copying, even if dancing a very fine line. And there definitely ARE parallels--Ben and Anakin both being close to their mother, both being obsessed in a bit of a creepy way with a nice brunette girl, both falling to the Dark Side in part because they are being manipulated by the Emperor but also in part because their mentors failed them and were too afraid if their power, and of course the whole redemption arc, including sacrificing themselves to save the Jedi hero. Also the whole broody angsty thing.

The differences are that Ben was not taken from his family, his leaving his family was part of his Dark turn. His ambition was also to some degree his own, even if he was being manipulated (I feel like Vader's ambition was always Palpatine's). His relationship with his father, a non-Jedi, was fairly unique. And his relationship with Rey was, as creepy as it was sometimes, I think actually healthier. He continually sought connection with others, Vader constantly felt he was alone and Padme signified an impossible source of light in that void he surrounded himself in, the symbol of Padme was more important to him than the person, whereas Ben/Ren was trying to deal on a deeper level with Rey. Finally, I felt like Ben's sacrifice was even more selfless... because the Emperor had already been defeated (IIRC). He chose to save Rey not to stop his enemy but to literally give life to return the favor to the person who gave him a second chance. Not to undercut Vader's sacrifice... but Vader's sacrifice was the act where he finally chose to have a family again. Ben had already chosen his family before saving Rey, so this was a different form of decision. He was already redeemed when he showed up, now he was repaying a debt.


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Freehold DM wrote:

arent you forgetting the empire created technology specifically to counter this via gravity wells?

It's not information I had, so no. Is that an expanded universe thing, something from the visual dictionary, something from DT 3 while I was running to the bathroom?

Quote:
Dont know if the first order kept it, but that was the cornerstone of empire tactics.

Lightspeed has been around for a long time, if that counter strategy has been around for a long time, where was it with the first order fleet?

The in world physics had to pre emptively stop/explain why that tactic wasn't used because that tactic would dramatically change what we see on screen.

Quote:
Also, regarding the bold, it really, really isnt. At this point I am going to assume you are being silly, as numerous in movie, game and world points out that a ship will explode when it makes contact with a planet or star.

I may use silliness to make a point but if I'm making my points silly there will be a smiley face.

The DEGREE to which a small ship can be effective against a big one matters here. An x wing crashing into a tie fighter is mutually assured destruction at speeds above parking lot. An x wing crashing into a cruiser got lucky and rolled a few nat 20's on his way to valhalla.

But when an x wing crashed into the death star there wasn't a scratch.

The Raddus might have been able to be flown into A cruiser to take it out.

Being able to light speed ram makes that tactic so good it makes a good chunk of what we see on the screen superfluous. JJ was right that he needed to explain why that wasn't the solution here.

You could have told the story of the last Jedi and kept the nuts and bolts intact. I don't know if it was a deliberate subversion for subversions sake or they just didn't care, but I think at least TRYING to keep your in world physics consistent is important. I get that fans can nitpick everything to death but this is some pretty blatant stuff.

There is a difference between fantasy and nonsense. Fantasy isn't non sensical it's differently sensible. When you lose that balance you lose the framework you need to make your story more than a random collection of events.

Quote:
This maneuver works fine against other ships though. And has been shown multiple times to do so. I think this is another case of fans noticing something and attributing it to someone when it has been done multiple times in universe, quietly.

I think its a matter of a writer saying "hey wouldn't it be cool if we did this" when all of the previous writing in the universe was "We don't do that because then we wouldn't have the world we see on the screen, someone can technobabble an explanation for it later"


DeathQuaker wrote:


** spoiler omitted **...

Spoiler:
I can agree with a lot of that, I think. I was speaking more of the parallels with Vader in the original trilogy, since the complaints were about these movies copying those. Plus I only saw the prequels once when they came out and don't remember them in great detail.:)
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Spoiler:
I only saw the prequels once, too, I unfortunately just can't bleach them from my mind. ;) I was trying to pull from both. But yeah.

Liberty's Edge

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

The film doesn't go out of its way to give TLJ the finger. There is NO path, there is no direction, there is no movement in a star wars universe without undoing TLJ because TLJ undid everything that made a star wars universe and the story HAD to go back. Its like someone giving you a bear hug and then complaining when you touch them by walking into them... well.. Yes. Your other options are rather limited.

What would the Rise of skywalker be about to be the finale of a trilogy and build on where the force awakens left it... with luke dead, snoke dead, the entire rebellion down to one bathroom on the millenium falcon?

There's a dozen different stories they could have told. A myriad of different directions. There's petty much exactly as much of a path as there was following TLJ.

I'm a writer and GM, but not an acclaimed film writer. And even I could hammer out a half-dozen stories for the end of the trilogy. It's not that hard or daunting.

There's so many different ways to build on TLJ without just reversing its decisions and plot points, sidelining its characters, and basically making it entirely skippable save the fact Luke is dead.
Which is the problem. Because it doesn't even try to heal the rift or unite the fans. To stop discussions like this. It just tears the scab off the wound and pokes it, making things worse.

It's almost enough to turn me off Star Wars.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

The only thing that got a deliberate chuck into the bin was the holdo maneuver.. and it needed it. You cannot have an epic fleet battle, death stars, ginormous ships to take out if the solution to anything bigger than a volkswagon is to strap a coffee can onto a warp drive and take it out.

"Giant imposing space ship? Bob, get the SpacePS truck and do a holdo maneuver into that thing chuck into the bin was the holdo maneuver.. and it needed it. You...

The Holdo Maneuever is a desperation plot. Because we saw in Rogue One what happens if your not in the *exact right position*.

(I.e. you splash off the shields of a Star Destroyer and explode.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u51xWB1NMJQ

If you're too close, you basically just ram the other ship and die.
(Or their defensive canons rip you to shreds.)
If you're too far, you fully enter hyperspace and basically fly right through the enemy.

It's a million-to-one shot. But when you have nothing else...


Jester David wrote:
There's a dozen different stories they could have told. A myriad of different directions. There's petty much exactly as much of a path as there was following TLJ.

You said this. Three times. But never answered the question. Whats the outline for an epic grand finale supposed to look like starting at the end of tlj and going to the end in one movie.

Quote:
The Holdo Maneuever is a desperation plot.

The rebels are ALWAYS desperate. That's kind of the point of a battle.

Quote:

(I.e. you splash off the shields of a Star Destroyer and explode.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u51xWB1NMJQ

Not sure if that ship was flying to hyperspace or just flying.

Quote:
It's a million-to-one shot. But when you have nothing else...

The rag tag group of heroes never have anything else. Kind of why they're rag tag.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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Jester David wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

The film doesn't go out of its way to give TLJ the finger. There is NO path, there is no direction, there is no movement in a star wars universe without undoing TLJ because TLJ undid everything that made a star wars universe and the story HAD to go back. Its like someone giving you a bear hug and then complaining when you touch them by walking into them... well.. Yes. Your other options are rather limited.

What would the Rise of skywalker be about to be the finale of a trilogy and build on where the force awakens left it... with luke dead, snoke dead, the entire rebellion down to one bathroom on the millenium falcon?

There's a dozen different stories they could have told. A myriad of different directions. There's petty much exactly as much of a path as there was following TLJ.

I'm a writer and GM, but not an acclaimed film writer. And even I could hammer out a half-dozen stories for the end of the trilogy. It's not that hard or daunting.

There's so many different ways to build on TLJ without just reversing its decisions and plot points, sidelining its characters, and basically making it entirely skippable save the fact Luke is dead.
Which is the problem. Because it doesn't even try to heal the rift or unite the fans. To stop discussions like this. It just tears the scab off the wound and pokes it, making things worse.

It's almost enough to turn me off Star Wars.

Weird. Speaking as someone who liked TLJ and also enjoyed this movie, I got zero sense that things in TLJ were subverted or ignored, and Rise built on what happened in TLJ, not took away from it. Yes, Rise makes it clear that in TLJ either Ren lied to Rey or he himself was misled by Snoke about one particular piece of information, but it also makes absolutely perfect sense to me how everything happened the way it did having seen it all now. I had even heard before seeing the movie that people felt JJ just gave Rian Johnson the finger and went in prepared to see all these discrepancies and/or reversals... and being alert for it... found nothing. The dialogue acknowledged and covered the events of what happened several times, and several things built off what happened in the last film. And I feel like if you watched Rise without seeing TLJ several things would be very confusing.

While it was a small thing, there was even something I always felt was a loose end/Chekov's Gun sort of thing from TLJ that finally had some payoff.

What that small thing was:

I remember when seeing Luke's crashed X-wing in TLJ I thought, "Oh, that is how Rey will leave," or otherwise thought it was going to be important, the way the camera fell on it a few times. Then nothing... in that movie. And then when she tries to run away by going back to the Island in Rise, it becomes her way out after all! It was a weird little bit of payoff but I loved it.

The one thing is it IS a bummer Rose had a smaller role (though on a small note I liked she still wore her sister's amulet). I have a feeling the intention when they were first outlining things was probably to have her work with Leia, but Carrie Fisher's death required those scenes to be kept brief and limited to what footage they had of her. Or, while this seems unlikely, I even wondered at one point if Kelly Marie Tran wanted less of a role after all the bullying. Possibly more likely they had more footage of what the group that she was with was up to that ended up being edited for time/narrative flow.

Cool thing is, Jon Chu says he wants to direct a Rose Tico series on Disney+. That would be awesome. (And finally a Star Wars follow-on I'd feel excited about personally.)

Silver Crusade

Ooo!


BigNorseWolf wrote:

arent you forgetting the empire created technology specifically to counter this via gravity wells?

It's not information I had, so no. Is that an expanded universe thing, something from the visual dictionary, something from DT 3 while I was running to the bathroom?

Nope, it is something that has come up in the fiction numerous times, and was a talking point in both Star Wars Rebels with respect to non-dead tree canon.

Quote:

Dont know if the first order kept it, but that was the cornerstone of empire tactics.

Lightspeed has been around for a long time, if that counter strategy has been around for a long time, where was it with the first order fleet?

The ships that carried gravity well generators were usually the first ones targeted by opposing forces and was perhaps THE least popular station in the Empire because the ships had meh shields, not many gun emplacements and had to be escorted by larger more powerful ships/fighters, which meant they were only in key areas with giant neon signs above them that read: Please Attack Me. There probably weren't many of them left after the New Republic took over and I could see one that were being decommissioned swiftly. Still, I'll check.


Jester David wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

The film doesn't go out of its way to give TLJ the finger. There is NO path, there is no direction, there is no movement in a star wars universe without undoing TLJ because TLJ undid everything that made a star wars universe and the story HAD to go back. Its like someone giving you a bear hug and then complaining when you touch them by walking into them... well.. Yes. Your other options are rather limited.

What would the Rise of skywalker be about to be the finale of a trilogy and build on where the force awakens left it... with luke dead, snoke dead, the entire rebellion down to one bathroom on the millenium falcon?

There's a dozen different stories they could have told. A myriad of different directions. There's petty much exactly as much of a path as there was following TLJ.

I'm a writer and GM, but not an acclaimed film writer. And even I could hammer out a half-dozen stories for the end of the trilogy. It's not that hard or daunting.

There's so many different ways to build on TLJ without just reversing its decisions and plot points, sidelining its characters, and basically making it entirely skippable save the fact Luke is dead.
Which is the problem. Because it doesn't even try to heal the rift or unite the fans. To stop discussions like this. It just tears the scab off the wound and pokes it, making things worse.

It's almost enough to turn me Star Wars

Once the prequels came out, war was inevitable. Once a moon was dropped on Chewbacca, that war threw away any Geneva Convention-like civility. It's all emotions and bloodlust now.

There will never be a unified fanbase ever again. There will always be a cloud of angry fans blocking the sun. Whether that is a large cloud or a small one depends on the topic.


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Rose was screwed, and not in the good way. I will check out the series, and I hope the actor who played Jar Jar Binks gets a role in it too.

As much as I may hate the character, what happened to the actor playing him was not okay.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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Freehold DM wrote:
Rose was screwed, and not in the good way. I will check out the series, and I hope the actor who played Jar Jar Binks gets a role in it too.

For clarity's sake, it's just a wish-series right now, not something planned. Just the director saying, "Hey, I'd love to do this."

Quote:
As much as I may hate the character, what happened to the actor playing him was not okay.

I know he considered suicide due to the media treatment of Jar Jar (which is awful), but did fans actively attack the actor too? That sucks.


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Freehold DM wrote:


Nope, it is something that has come up in the fiction numerous times, and was a talking point in both Star Wars Rebels with respect to non-dead tree canon.

So not in the movies.

And definitely not in the movie where it mattered.

So there was an (unmentioned) counter-tactic to the (otherwise impossible and unmentioned tactic) so instead of using that to say, have a rag tag group of adventurers raid the ship and shut off the gravity well so someone could do the holdo manuever, they just decided they didn't have the unmentioned counter measure so someone could do the unmentioned tactic.

That isn't any better. It's like having the first order die because they forgot to roll up their windows or turn on their shields. You have a universe full of ships moving at light speed who want to kill you, stopping you from doing that seems like a pretty important part of going into space.

This and a lot of other problems with the film could have easily been solved if you'd stuck them in an asteroid field or a subspace disturbance or a pod of space whales or a bloom of space plankton or SOMETHING other than just a big giant open section of space so that anything you do doesn't have to change the way spaceship battles work. But I don't think the film gave that much thought to


Freehold DM wrote:

Rose was screwed, and not in the good way. I will check out the series, and I hope the actor who played Jar Jar Binks gets a role in it too.

I heard they filmed a bunch of scenes between her and Leia, but they just couldn't get them to look right in post production.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:


Nope, it is something that has come up in the fiction numerous times, and was a talking point in both Star Wars Rebels with respect to non-dead tree canon.

So not in the movies.

And definitely not in the movie where it mattered.

So there was an (unmentioned) counter-tactic to the (otherwise impossible and unmentioned tactic) so instead of using that to say, have a rag tag group of adventurers raid the ship and shut off the gravity well so someone could do the holdo manuever, they just decided they didn't have the unmentioned counter measure so someone could do the unmentioned tactic.

That isn't any better. It's like having the first order die because they forgot to roll up their windows or turn on their shields. You have a universe full of ships moving at light speed who want to kill you, stopping you from doing that seems like a pretty important part of going into space.

This and a lot of other problems with the film could have easily been solved if you'd stuck them in an asteroid field or a subspace disturbance or a pod of space whales or a bloom of space plankton or SOMETHING other than just a big giant open section of space so that anything you do doesn't have to change the way spaceship battles work. But I don't think the film gave that much thought to

you literally just described the rebels episode. If they did that in the movie, fan rage would have been considerable.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:

Rose was screwed, and not in the good way. I will check out the series, and I hope the actor who played Jar Jar Binks gets a role in it too.

I heard they filmed a bunch of scenes between her and Leia, but they just couldn't get them to look right in post production.

Once again the best parts of the film ended up on the cutting room floor.


Freehold DM wrote:
you literally just described the rebels episode.

See? Story telling within the bounds of the created world, forshadowed and explained to the audience within the story. The antagonists are aware of how the universe works, take appropriate steps as if they're a part of that universe, and the good guys work to overcome them anyway.

Wouldn't be the first time I'd wished the folks from rebels and the movie had traded places. (I have seen some rebels episodes. I don't recall seeing that one)

As it is the holdo manuever was just a pull from the other ysoki cheekpouch.

Quote:

If they did that in the movie, fan rage would have been considerable.

As opposed to...?

option 1) the thing with the gravity wells was planned its just that no one mentioned it (and Poe was unaware of it)

option 2) The writer/director just did without any thought and folks found an imperfect explanation later.


They would have said the movie just copied Rebels.


Freehold DM wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Rose was screwed, and not in the good way. I will check out the series, and I hope the actor who played Jar Jar Binks gets a role in it too.
I heard they filmed a bunch of scenes between her and Leia, but they just couldn't get them to look right in post production.
Once again the best parts of the film ended up on the cutting room floor.

It's certain something crucial ended up on the cutting room floor. The film wasn't a disaster (relative to SW films) but I agree with it's placement on the aggregate imdb score.

Rose didn't have much of a character arc in the prior film, what with the whole side quest to the casino being a pointless endeavor. All it did was set up Finn to boss-fight the Chrome Trooper.

Maz didn't do much this film or last. Unless it too was on the cutting room floor.

Babu Frik was a big hit with everyone I saw the movie with.

Scarab Sages

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Sadly, any plan I had for seeing this new movie in the theater has now gone up in smoke. Th wife convinced me the kids needed a new pet, so now much of what was my free awake time (and some of my sleep time) is now devoted to our 7 week old German Shepherd puppy named Lily.

The most ironic part of this is that I, who had the least enthusiasm about this (from a timing perspective), am the most knowledgeable of, and have the most experience caring for, dogs of all ages.


Freehold DM wrote:
They would have said the movie just copied Rebels.

Would that be worse than what people are saying now?


I'd like to say something . . . conciliatory -- I guess that would be a good word for it -- , but Freehold/BigNorse/most-posters are correct:

Our fractured fanbase (and rightly so) will remain so -- the canon's been cannon-ized a few times too many.

*hoists brew*
A toast, then: to Star Wars -- may the dream never die.
*drains glass, walks out*

Spoiler:
1) it shoulda been Thrawn
2) the EU did a fine job of discussing social/moral/ethical issues
3) somebody needs to buy out Disney's rights, and then do KotOR and the Bane Trilogy

Help us, Some-Nameless-Body-With-Hella-Money, you're our only hope.


It was never going to be Thrawn. First of all, you'd have to recast the trio and that wasn't ever going to fly.

It was never going to be a remake of a video game. It certainly wasn't going to be a deep dive into Sith history - though that might make an interesting movie at some point, it wasn't going to be Episodes 7-9.

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