My brother says that a rogue, barbarian build done right is the most broken build out there is he right?


Advice


My brother and i like to spend time researching rules and builds and what not. He says he found a way to make a near godlike build by combinding rogue and barbarian classes together and that its the most broken build out there. Hes a try hard who likes to break everything so i can see him being right about it being broken but is it the MOST broken build out there?


I can imagine for dungeon delving the class would be fairly strong, but in open areas where enemies could cast spells from safe distances, then he would be out ranged.

Unless he took an item mastery feat of teleportation, and just dropped on top of flying ranged units.


Broken how? Tell us what the character is suppose to do. Did you want a really strong melee build? Something that rolls lots of dice if it manages to hit? A well rounded character welcome in any party? Something that one shots AP bosses? Best archer? Best two handed? Best mounted warrior? Best natural attacker? Most survivable character?

I can think of a few reasons to do a barbarian/rogue, and they are for very different purposes. Also if you can say what level range you're looking at that makes a huge difference. A lot of builds don't mature until after 8th level. Some don't even really hit their stride till 12th level. If you need something that is going to be good at every level its a lot different. And if you're only looking at 20th there are some really uncomfortable builds where nobody would want to play through leveling the character but their end game is amazing.

But if this is all you're going to tell us then you can have a Battering Blaster Thread that will one shot your barbarian rogue, and just about anything else in Pathfinder too.


Meirril wrote:

Broken how? Tell us what the character is suppose to do. Did you want a really strong melee build? Something that rolls lots of dice if it manages to hit? A well rounded character welcome in any party? Something that one shots AP bosses? Best archer? Best two handed? Best mounted warrior? Best natural attacker? Most survivable character?

I can think of a few reasons to do a barbarian/rogue, and they are for very different purposes. Also if you can say what level range you're looking at that makes a huge difference. A lot of builds don't mature until after 8th level. Some don't even really hit their stride till 12th level. If you need something that is going to be good at every level its a lot different. And if you're only looking at 20th there are some really uncomfortable builds where nobody would want to play through leveling the character but their end game is amazing.

But if this is all you're going to tell us then you can have a Battering Blaster Thread that will one shot your barbarian rogue, and just about anything else in Pathfinder too.

I dont know its not my build he said it was something to do with combinding rage abilites with sneak attack damage or something like that. I was just asking to see if others thought he was right. I can see your point on it being weak against a ranged character though. But the fact that hes wrong makes me quite happy


Search the forums for Shikigami style. You'll find a few character builds that are truly disgusting.


Meirril wrote:

Broken how? Tell us what the character is suppose to do. Did you want a really strong melee build? Something that rolls lots of dice if it manages to hit? A well rounded character welcome in any party? Something that one shots AP bosses? Best archer? Best two handed? Best mounted warrior? Best natural attacker? Most survivable character?

I can think of a few reasons to do a barbarian/rogue, and they are for very different purposes. Also if you can say what level range you're looking at that makes a huge difference. A lot of builds don't mature until after 8th level. Some don't even really hit their stride till 12th level. If you need something that is going to be good at every level its a lot different. And if you're only looking at 20th there are some really uncomfortable builds where nobody would want to play through leveling the character but their end game is amazing.

But if this is all you're going to tell us then you can have a Battering Blaster Thread that will one shot your barbarian rogue, and just about anything else in Pathfinder too.

But hey you seem to know a decent amount about this kinda stuff far more than i do any ways any advice on a pyrokineticist and knife master(rogue archetype) build i have level 6 and ive put all my levels in kineticist so far(multiclassing was a more recent decision)


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Korafireheart wrote:
My brother and i like to spend time researching rules and builds and what not. He says he found a way to make a near godlike build by combinding rogue and barbarian classes together and that its the most broken build out there. Hes a try hard who likes to break everything so i can see him being right about it being broken but is it the MOST broken build out there?

It's not a full caster so it's not even in the consideration for "powerful" let alone most powerful. Furthermore, Rogue is a contender for worst class in the game. Honestly, outside a few corner cases, multiclassing or prestige classing in PF is a surefire way to lose power. It sounds like he does not really understand Pathfinder optimization. I would direct him to these forums and have him review some of the discussions on this board regarding the most powerful classes.


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I mean, adding "rogue" to anything is unlikely to make it more powerful.

I'd worry much more about synthesist summoners and exploiter wizards than "literally anything which does not have spells." A rogue barbarian is less barbarian than AM BARBARIAN and thus inferior to AM BARBARIAN.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, adding "rogue" to anything is unlikely to make it more powerful.

I'd worry much more about synthesist summoners (...)

Come again? Synthesist is a huge downgrade in power compared to regular Summoner. Synthesist can be more "broken" (as in something ill though of, and disruptive play), but giving up a free quicken on every spell is a huge downgrade for power.

@Korafireheart: I've yet to see a build containing Rogue levels that could be called "broken". I'm sure there are some, but that would certainly contain levels in a class other than just Rogue and Barb.

The way PF works, with just about one expection, for a martial to be good (apart from early levels), they need to land a full attack. For a melee, that means they desperately want an ability that allows them to move and full attack in one round, i.e. with pounce. For Barbarian, that's usually done via the [zurl=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/beast-totem-greater-su]Greater Beast Totem[/url] rage power, at 10th level (there are archetypes that allow pounce at 8th level). Since Rogue doesn't have such an ability, multiclassing into Rogue prior to that Barbarian level (11th or 9th) cannot be anything but a mistake.

No offense meant, but I think your brother is either a loudmouth, or doesn't really understand high power character building in Pathfinder. I'd like to see a build, though (in realistic level ranges, say 8th and 12th level - no one cares about 20th level characters).


Anzyr wrote:
Korafireheart wrote:
My brother and i like to spend time researching rules and builds and what not. He says he found a way to make a near godlike build by combinding rogue and barbarian classes together and that its the most broken build out there. Hes a try hard who likes to break everything so i can see him being right about it being broken but is it the MOST broken build out there?
It's not a full caster so it's not even in the consideration for "powerful" let alone most powerful. Furthermore, Rogue is a contender for worst class in the game. Honestly, outside a few corner cases, multiclassing or prestige classing in PF is a surefire way to lose power. It sounds like he does not really understand Pathfinder optimization. I would direct him to these forums and have him review some of the discussions on this board regarding the most powerful classes.

Lots of people badmouth Rogue, but worst? Vampire Hunter I think wins that contest. Ninja isn't as good as a Rogue because the Rogue can cherry pick their best abilities, and because Ninja doesn't get any additional material while Rogue continues to grow in feats, talents and archetypes.

Beyond those two classes, there are a lot you can argue are on par with Rogue for sub-optimal. And in truth I think the people that want to say Rogues are bad are too concerned with optimizing. Rogues as a class are trap finders with some abilities to do a lot of different things. Combat isn't really the classes specialty, and it shows. But Rogue is a good base for a lot of quirky builds because they can do lots of different things that don't involve casting spells.


Synthesist is a downgrade in power, through action economy, but an upgrade in survivability. In total, it’s more of a sidegrade to the base summoner than a downgrade.


Melkiador wrote:
Synthesist is a downgrade in power, through action economy, but an upgrade in survivability. In total, it’s more of a sidegrade to the base summoner than a downgrade.

Problem is that it conspicously obviates martials since your only use for physical stats is "qualifying for feats." It breaks a core assumption of the game by straight up replacing your (presumably bad) stats and is thus trouble.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Synthesist is a downgrade in power, through action economy, but an upgrade in survivability. In total, it’s more of a sidegrade to the base summoner than a downgrade.
Problem is that it conspicously obviates martials since your only use for physical stats is "qualifying for feats." It breaks a core assumption of the game by straight up replacing your (presumably bad) stats and is thus trouble.

That’s mostly only a problem with cheesy point buys.

If you level per level compare it to an inquisitor it doesn’t come off as anything that special, except for its extra helping of hit points.


It's not a 9th level progression spell casting character, so no.


Or on certain rolled stat arrays Melkiador. It's totally possible to roll 16-15-15-12-10-6 in a game where you roll and arrange to your liking, that's an example of an old character of mine before racial mods. And the original summoner's spell list looks suspiciously like an attempt to have a god wizard's favourite tricks on a 6-level caster.


A Wizard with access to the Gate Spell can take out any melee character who can't shift dimensions, or at the very least, teleport. Have fun drowning in the Plane of Water :)


avr wrote:
Or on certain rolled stat arrays Melkiador. It's totally possible to roll 16-15-15-12-10-6 in a game where you roll and arrange to your liking, that's an example of an old character of mine before racial mods.

It’s possible, but so is rolling anything. Heck, I once rolled 14,14,14,13,12,10, which seems like a crazy number of samey and even numbers. But I don’t really see anything worrisome about your array for a synthesist. You can throw those 15s into intelligence and wisdom and then what? And honestly, you were probably going to put one of those 15s into intelligence with a summoner anyway, because 2+int skill points just isn’t much.


Even if you Gestalt a Barbarian and a Rogue, you will not have a broken or overpowered character. You simply have a Barbarian with skills and Sneak Attack... that is it.

With Gestalt, you can use the Scout archetype to get Sneak Attack damage on a charge. Knife Master gives you D8 Sneak Attack dice.

Urban Barbarian for Controlled Rage, follow the Beast Totem path for Pounce @ 10.

TWF with Agile Kukris.

Still just a big dumb fighter, going to get disposed of or completely ignored by the flying, invisible wizard.


Melkiador wrote:
avr wrote:
Or on certain rolled stat arrays Melkiador. It's totally possible to roll 16-15-15-12-10-6 in a game where you roll and arrange to your liking, that's an example of an old character of mine before racial mods.
It’s possible, but so is rolling anything. Heck, I once rolled 14,14,14,13,12,10, which seems like a crazy number of samey and even numbers. But I don’t really see anything worrisome about your array for a synthesist. You can throw those 15s into intelligence and wisdom and then what? And honestly, you were probably going to put one of those 15s into intelligence with a summoner anyway, because 2+int skill points just isn’t much.

Sure, then your summoner with the right race has Str 16, Dex 12, Con 15 (ability increase evo.), Int 15, Wis 17, Cha 18 at level 1, or something like that. Spot the 6.

It's not that it breaks the game - you're not better than a specialist in their area - but it breaks certain assumptions about not being good at everything. And I'm sure there's others who have rolled stats even better for a synthesist. I'm not noted for rolling unusually high stats among my friends I game with in RL.


A base summoner probably would have put the 6 into strength anyway. Let the eidolon carry your luggage. And how good are you at “everything” really? You have 4 skill points, so you’re not a skill monkey. And while your physical stats are ok, they’re not quite up to what most melee fighters would want. A 16 in strength means your default attack is only going to be +4, so you probably should have put your stat evolution there. Most melee guys would have +4 just from their stat based strength. And most of them would have another class feature for greater accuracy. And your AC is 13 on a melee build, so it’s good you have all of those extra hit points.

The synthesist isn’t bad by any means, but I wouldn’t say it’s good at everything.


Summoner AC is quite high as you can get high Nat Armor from Eidolon + Mage Armor + Medium (if you go for Str evolutions) Dex from Eidolon. Thats a respectable +17 (+18 if quadruped) at lv1 and +33 (+34 if quadruped) at lv12, all with no investment in armor or extremely high dex.

Anyway the benefit of Synthesist is all the evolutions which grant immunity, flight, pounce, etc.; combined with the early entry spells (ex haste), and the Summon Monsters/Planar Binding spells which lets be honest are kind of stupidly powerful/versatile.


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I think a barbarian rogue is the best combo class for breaking the game too.

Get a level 1 barbarian and 1 in rogue. Charge wizard in the party. Do 3d6 plus 7 damage to a 2d6 flatfooted character. Save yourself YEARS of conversations about how he will Gate you to the plane of water and you'll drown when he gets access to Gate.

Honestly. Totally OP.

And realistic too because 9th level casters are always the main bad guy and it's best to just nip it in the bud quickly.

I'm honestly surprised with as much smack as wizards talk that it isn't done more often by characters that are both underhanded and driven by anger management issues.


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Cavall wrote:

I think a barbarian rogue is the best combo class for breaking the game too.

Get a level 1 barbarian and 1 in rogue. Charge wizard in the party. Do 3d6 plus 7 damage to a 2d6 flatfooted character. Save yourself YEARS of conversations about how he will Gate you to the plane of water and you'll drown when he gets access to Gate.

Oh, you meant "fixing", not breaking.

This little fix also speeds up gameplay as well and makes it more fun for everyone at the table (well, maybe except that little poor wizard). Imagine no more waiting for ~15 minutes until party's wizard makes his mind about which spell to use and moves all his summons! D:


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I dont allow myself to dream that big.

Silver Crusade

Can we see your build for this character?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Not a rules question. Please move to the advice or discussion thread.

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

Often discussions of what is "best", "worst", "broken", "overpowered", etc, are fairly subjective. Opinions and preferences can vary widely depending on the players at the table, the type of campaign or GMing, and what gaming style an individual prefers. I've moved the thread over to advice and would like to remind folks participating in this discussion that coming from a perspective of "What works for me is...", "What I prefer is...", "I feel that...." as these phrases allow for stating your preferences as your own opinions (allows for discussion of similarity or differences) rather than as universal facts (which tend to create arguments).


I take it that "broken" means powerful in reference to Game Balance. A poor euphemism for a game term. I'd consider the Oozemorph probably the most broken (as in doesn't work due to its own restrictions). NPC classes are up there for "worst career choices".

an interesting statement but analysis of classes and power in game play has shown that Wizards are probably the most powerful class and cause the most problems for the average GM. I'll just refer you to Powerful Classes discussion on StackExchg which points back to Class Tiers on Paizo

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