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Cantrips are just fall back damage. Martial characters can and should out-dps casters, because they don't have battlefield-altering spells, reality-warping utility and other similarly strong options.
But there's truth to the fact that Casters are underwhelming, largely due to broken math (being addressed in the final release of PF2e) and major nerfs across the board with less spells, shittier spells and keeping the contrived and unnecessarily complicated (and bad story-wise) vancian casting that remains the same but in a whole different environment, with less spell slots available, less power in each spells and without long-lasting buff spells that made lower level spells worth more over-time increasing the inherent value of each slots.
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I have found that if you're focusing on the War-Game aspect of the RPG with PF you're going to probably be unhappy playing anything other than the "Flavor of the week" to try to push DPS.
The problem is that once someone allows the metric to be guided by corner-case scenarios where a given build can literally just stand still and attack three times in a row EVERY ROUND, then the entire mold is broken.
Spellcasters did INITIALLY feel a bit behind the curve with the PT materials, but I thought the various Buffs they gave to Spells brought the DPS gap much closer together, and as Lighting notes-Spellcasters really AREN'T supposed to be DPS machines, they're there to effect world-changing magic to assist allies, harass and enfeeble enemies, and provide interesting ways to solve challenges other than "Breaking down the door" every time like the lauded DPS focused PC is forced to do because they only focused their entire build to do that 1 thing, that being "I use the Strike Action" three times in a row.
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In a game where spellcasters have lost a lot of their utility and have an even more limited use of spells compared to PF1, a subtype like Evocation wizards should be doing comparable damage, and more top end damage for their best spells, compared to martials.
I actually played a wizard in playtest to level 10 and it was disappointing.
In PF1, the only people playing blaster wizard or sorcs were people who had extreme game mastery and had planned them out from level 1, using traits, obscure feats, and of course metamagic. Any new player who tried to play a blaster "out of the box" (or played Ezren in PFS) was very disappointed and wondered why they were so terrible when everyone had been telling them how amazing and overpowered they are.
In PF2, metamagic isn't the same. In PF2, touch AC isn't a thing, it's almost the same as AC. Which means a highly reduced DPS for arcane blasters, and nothing has been done to compensate.
Sorry, some of you are saying an arcane spellcaster is there just to buff others and for utility, but I completely disagree. Sure, that is one way to play them, but that's just one play style. And surely players have noted how nerfed spells like Haste have become right? In PF1 it was great (and should have affected only 1 target), now it's just terrible.
I was really hoping blaster wizards/sorcs would be fixed in PF2, that you could make a reasonable blaster wizard or sorceror without game mastery, and without the ability to make it too good. For Wizards, I don't think they do enough to make the schools stand out. Not all wizards should be able to do better DPS, but it should be possible for evocation wizards.
My player's blaster sorcerer pretty much won the final encounter of Mirrored Moon in two turns, and has been picking pretty obvious things all the way through.
It is really not hard to make an effective blaster caster.
Also, if somehow everyone has a holy weapon (with some having holy, corrosive, and flaming), then yes, it is unsurprising that they'll be doing more damage. Some things that may be missed that could be contributing:
- Disrupting only works on undead. Otherwise, Holy is a level 11 rune.
- Corrosive is a 9th-level rune, as is flaming. That's a lot in terms of magic items for a 10th-level party.
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If we assume that they fix the broken ass spell DC vs Saves, properly it will certainly help.
But for hypothetical blaster focused mage, this is where I think the math should be.
If we assume 4 encounters per day. For blasting the 2 highest spell slots are relevant. So you have 2 relevant spells per encounter. This is blaster so they should have metamagic to help, so they are spending 3 actions to cast.
I say the damage of those spells should be equal to twohanded weapon user hitting with all 3 attacks for the highest level slot and 2-2,5 for the second highest, assuming failed save. My opinion is based on the fact that they are spending all their top 2 slots to accomplish this with rest of the casting regelated to minor significance. Where as the weapon user should be averaging something like equilevant of 2 strikes a round during the entire fight. AoE vs Single target spells naturally should have different math.
And yes the 2 handed is what a dedicated blaster should be compared to given that both are builds focused on offense opposed to defense, specifically DPR.
Granted I think a lot better idea would be to increase the anemic amount of spell slots that was cut in half.
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If we assume that they fix the broken ass spell DC vs Saves, properly it will certainly help.
But for hypothetical blaster focused mage, this is where I think the math should be.
If we assume 4 encounters per day. For blasting the 2 highest spell slots are relevant. So you have 2 relevant spells per encounter. This is blaster so they should have metamagic to help, so they are spending 3 actions to cast.
I say the damage of those spells should be equal to twohanded weapon user hitting with all 3 attacks for the highest level slot and 2-2,5 for the second highest, assuming failed save. My opinion is based on the fact that they are spending all their top 2 slots to accomplish this with rest of the casting regelated to minor significance. Where as the weapon user should be averaging something like equilevant of 2 strikes a round during the entire fight. AoE vs Single target spells naturally should have different math.
And yes the 2 handed is what a dedicated blaster should be compared to given that both are builds focused on offense opposed to defense, specifically DPR.
Granted I think a lot better idea would be to increase the anemic amount of spell slots that was cut in half.
definitely agree the amount of spell slots could be increased OR increase the power of the spells.
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In the current (1.6) version, utility spells are weaker than they will be (it was hard to change them all) and damage spells are just a tad stronger than needed (soem might need adjustment). Cantrips have been mentioned as being weak by a lot of threads and surveys so hopefully we can get a boost there, until then you’re probably better off with a crossbow and a lot of Fireballs.
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To hear the lead designer talk about these issues, see this Jan 16th interview with Jason Bulmahn (starting at 51:50).
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I'm just gonna copy paste some stuff on Cantrips being underwhelming.
Yeah. There's a lot of other stuff people miss when they compare when damage to cantrips:
They compare melee weapon damage to cantrips, which are ranged. Ranged weapon damage is significantly more modest. The default martial weapon is probably the composite shortbow, which only does d6 and half strength, so a dex based martial is lucky to get +1 damage to it, where a caster gets their full casting mod.
Cantrips usually target touch AC. The utility here varies depending on what you are fighting, and might wind up offset to weapons getting item bonuses and increased proficiency easier. But I've seen this be as much as a 6 point swing.
Ability boosts make it pretty easy to keep your dexterity competitive.
Cantrips trigger elemental weaknesses. This can be huge and has really carried some fights. It gives casters deceptively high damage.
Cantrips require no investment. The alternative a caster can use by default is a crossbow, which is effectively 2 actions per attack anyway and gets no damage modifier. Cantrips are obviously better than that. A wizard can gain proficiency in better weapons, but they need to invest a feat.
Regardless, any character who wants to use weapons needs to spend gold to keep that weapon scaling. Not so for cantrips. At most they eventually may get a spell duelist wand.
Cantrip damage doesn't compare favorably to a greatsword. And it shouldn't. The greatsword user got proficiency instead of spells, invested gold to improve the weapon, has to be up in melee to make swing it (costing actions to move up to foes and risking greater damage), can't change his damage type without dropping and drawing new weapons (which are less strong than main), can't trigger elemental weaknesses without having exactly the right property rune, doesn't have a hand free to open doors or draw a potion...
The further you move away from that extreme, like using a one handed weapon or a ranged weapon, the closer cantrip damage looks to weapon damage.
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Honestly, i think spellcasters look rather blah in general, not only damage, but then again, the devs said they will be looking into it, now how the finished version will look only time will tell.
This idea that cantrips could carry over the MASSIVE amount of debuffs spread across the casters was just terrible.
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Cantrips are indeed a bit underwhelming, and I think they could use about a one die boost in damage (starting at 1dX+Stat and getting an extra die when they get the stat bonus now). That still leaves them way behind martials, but not quite as laughably so.
And it's important that they be behind when using cantrips, because per update 1.6 (actually, I believe it was 1.5 that boosted spell damage) spellcasters actual spells are quite strong damage-wise, or can be under the right circumstances anyway. My group's Evoker was the unambiguous MVP in 'Heroes Of Undarin' using the updated spell damage, for example. Some of that was due to the enemies having Weaknesses to various elements, but the damage was very respectable in general.
As mentioned, utility spells are also gonna get a pretty solid upgrade, and in combination, I think those facts mean spellcasters will do fine even if cantrips remain less than inspiring.
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AoE blasting spells are REALLY good in the playtest. The damage a single fireball can do to an entire group of enemies is nuts.
Our level 9 monk and fighter do 3d8+1d6+4= 21 average damage per hit. A Cone of Cold does 49 average damage and can do it to a group. And that's before you touch elemental weaknesses.
Single target stuff isn't always in as good a position but usually also carry debuff riders which are significant.
Blasting is fine.
Single target stuff isn't always in as good a position but usually also carry debuff riders which are significant.Blasting is fine.
(Coughs in True Strike+Disintigrate)
(Or any other True Strike+touch spell combo)
True Dat. I haven't seen as much of it in action but there's definitely options. I think some levels feel a little sparse.
Damage seems to be the one place where casters are doing ok. Cantrips might be good for a boost though. Non-damage hostile spells have problems with the math, but the math is apparently being fixed, so that should work out. It's buffs and utility that have been gutted most. Between way-too-short durations, limited targets, weakened effects, concentration, fewer spell slots and the need to heighten, they've been hit from all directions. We've been told they are going to get improved, but no details on how. I'd hope all of those would be loosened up, but I doubt heightening is going to be dropped. And from statements I've seen, I'm getting the impression they don't want to give back spell slots, which is a shame. The small number of slots really cuts into utility potential, you're not likely to have a few more situational utility spells memorized "just in case" when you need those slots for the more likely to be used spells. It sounds like it's mostly the individual effects that might get boosted, as well as possibly some durations and number of targets. But that's all on a case by case basis, so how well that works is going to be determined on which spells get improved and in what way.
At least casters aren't in nearly as bad a shape as alchemists.
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Damage seems to be the one place where casters are doing ok. Cantrips might be good for a boost though. Non-damage hostile spells have problems with the math, but the math is apparently being fixed, so that should work out. It's buffs and utility that have been gutted most. Between way-too-short durations, limited targets, weakened effects, concentration, fewer spell slots and the need to heighten, they've been hit from all directions.
Our Bard has still been casting plenty of utility spells to great effect. Last session alone, he Shadow Walked the whole party+followers and cut travel time down to 5% of what it would normally have been and used Veil to disguise the entire party to infiltrate an enemy camp and distribute false orders to their troops. He also used Phantom Steed to further reduce travel time and help support the disguises from Veil. In other sessions he's used Invisibility Sphere to let the entire party get the drop on enemies, and Charm to defuse situations that otherwise would have turned violent. Fly still got people past obstacles climbing could not.
Casters seem to have plenty of utility despite all this.
We've been told they are going to get improved, but no details on how.
Actually, we have been told at least one thing off the top of my head: Duration. Mark mentioned in a previous interview how Treated Wounds has created an interesting decision making paradigm for 10 minute duration buffs and we would probably see more of those. On the recent Know Direction Jason said there were spells that lasted a minute that could be bumped up to an hour.
I'd hope all of those would be loosened up, but I doubt heightening is going to be dropped. And from statements I've seen, I'm getting the impression they don't want to give back spell slots, which is a shame. The small number of slots really cuts into utility potential, you're not likely to have a few more situational utility spells memorized "just in case" when you need those slots for the more likely to be used spells.
This is possibly true... for clerics and druids. Sorcerers got such a huge bump in the rate they get top level spell slots and spells known that it easily makes up for having less lower level spells. They also effectively can get what would have been extra spells known in PF1 through spontaneous heightening on a daily preparation basis. (Knowing Invisibility allows you to effectively "prepare" Greater Invisibility.) Couple this with battle spells becoming less effective as their slot level drops and retraining spells being easier, and your sorcerers have a strong incentive to replace low level blasts with debuffs or utility spells. Then you have the arcane evolution letting sorcerers milk scrolls like never before.
Bards seem like they are in an even better position thanks to being upgraded to 9th level casters. The one thing the spontaneous casters seem to be missing is the human favored class bonus, but that was always a pretty distorting mechanic.
Wizards have Quick Preparation now, which lets them prepare those safe picks for battle and then swap them out should the need for a utility spell arise.
Clerics and druids really seem to be the only classes that feel the pinch for what they will be packing now. And even then, all casters now have access to a huge boost in available spells: staffs. Staffs are so much better in this edition it is crazy, and a level appropriate staff seems to grant about 2 more spells that can be cast spontaneously of everything but your highest level spell slot, plus extra castings.
Everyone keeps in mentioning fireballs. This is anecdotal evidence I know, but in Raiders of Shrieking Pass, in the final encounter, we cast 4 fireballs (2 from me and 2 from Kyra) at the archers (apparently they had amazing reflex saves) and the archers critically succeeded on 2 saves (no damage) and succeeded on the other 2 (1/2 damage). The GM was rolling 15+ but no 20s. Considering I just blew everything I had for that day in 2 rounds (and had been using cantrips up until then for the boss fight), consider me underwhelmed.
Anecdotally, that would require them to never roll below an 8, and have four 18+s. Even though their saves are boosted too high, by my assessment (should be 1-2 lower), that's some insanely good dice.
Also, if you were playing 1.4, you should have had Treat Wounds. That was in 1.3.
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Yea, it's true casters could do as much or more damage for a limited time. But "limited time" becomes always, because players fight until they run out of resources. Then they "camp," even if it's 11 in the morning.
Yea, it's true casters could do as much or more damage for a limited time. But "limited time" becomes always, because players fight until they run out of resources. Then they "camp," even if it's 11 in the morning.
Only if there's no time pressure.
With time pressure, tactical casters use cantrips or lower level spell slots as long as possible, saving their good spells for emergencies.
How much caster-martial disparity there is depends a lot on how good the GM and adventure are at creating a sense of urgency.
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How much caster-martial disparity there is depends a lot on how good the GM and adventure are at creating a sense of urgency.
On a tangent unrelated to caster stuff, but honestly, I think sense of urgency is overused. It seems almost a crutch that is relied upon too much. I understand it's purpose, and it's a great tool to keep tension and keep players from faffing about so much, doing unrelated things. At least once in a while. But it just seems like there's too much of it in APs and such. The world is always blowing up, no time to catch your breath, no time for anything, just go, go, go!. It just gets exhausting after a while. I'd love to have some more relaxed adventures where you can take your time and have side-adventures. And Paizo created a formalized system for downtime, but in their own APs, there is almost never any downtime available, it's almost always a race against time.
Relatedly, I think the stakes are often too high. When everything is apocalyptic, it starts to lose it's impact. Having some lower stakes now and then is fine. Not everything has to be world-shaking.
I don't mean to derail the thread, but this is something that's been bugging me for a while. I'm hoping that with the introduction of a formal downtime mechanic, Paizo will provide time to use it in their Adventure Paths going forward.
How much caster-martial disparity there is depends a lot on how good the GM and adventure are at creating a sense of urgency.On a tangent unrelated to caster stuff, but honestly, I think sense of urgency is overused. It seems almost a crutch that is relied upon too much. I understand it's purpose, and it's a great tool to keep tension and keep players from faffing about so much, doing unrelated things. At least once in a while. But it just seems like there's too much of it in APs and such. The world is always blowing up, no time to catch your breath, no time for anything, just go, go, go!. It just gets exhausting after a while. I'd love to have some more relaxed adventures where you can take your time and have side-adventures. And Paizo created a formalized system for downtime, but in their own APs, there is almost never any downtime available, it's almost always a race against time.
Relatedly, I think the stakes are often too high. When everything is apocalyptic, it starts to lose it's impact. Having some lower stakes now and then is fine. Not everything has to be world-shaking.
I don't mean to derail the thread, but this is something that's been bugging me for a while. I'm hoping that with the introduction of a formal downtime mechanic, Paizo will provide time to use it in their Adventure Paths going forward.
All 3 of the APs I've run have downtime. One of them is pretty light on it, but it's still there. The other two have significant opportunities for downtime and specify as such.
I'd also say true time crunches are pretty rare. My APs have you trying to stop a threat that is "weeks" away, which is enough to prevent faffing about but not enough to stop you from resting pretty much as you want. You usually wind up in a true rush in at least one book of an AP, but it hasn't been the norm in my experience.
Sometimes, the time pressure can backfire. My players derailed the plot in The Divinity Drive, the 6th module in Iron Gods, by getting hired by the bad guy rather than fighting their way in. They spent weeks working for the villain, learning his secrets, befriending his minions, and exploring the mile-long crashed spaceship Divinity. My players thought the ruse and espionage was more fun than combat.
And their work put the villain's cataslysmic plan months ahead of schedule, ready to implement on a moment's notice. And the moment the party turned on the villain, he implemented it. A bunch of encounters that the module had spaced out with a night's rest inbetween all happened at once. Fortunately, a few befriended minions switched to their side, which gave them more resources.
The spellcasters ran out of spells halfway through. The party knew they had no time to rest. I improvised some shenanigans with the pocket dimension called the Godmind to recharge a few spells, but we could see that the spellcasters were at a disadvantage.
On the other hand, when they had to travel halfway across the Divinity as quickly as possible, their crazy solution was thrilling: riding on the back of a reprogrammed annihilator robot as its booster jets (one minute fuel limit) sent it hundreds of feet into the air above the Divinity so that the magus could get a line of sight for a 1040-foot Dimension Door teleport.
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Somewhat related question here. Now I don't have the PDF in front of me and it's an older copy so all the spells aren't one to one. Throw on the fact we probably don't have every spell that's going to be in the core book(probably?) And we might be missing some info.
But what sort of reality warping do spell casters HAVE in PF2? I mean even "Alter Reality" just lets you copy another spell.
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Somewhat related question here. Now I don't have the PDF in front of me and it's an older copy so all the spells aren't one to one. Throw on the fact we probably don't have every spell that's going to be in the core book(probably?) And we might be missing some info.
But what sort of reality warping do spell casters HAVE in PF2? I mean even "Alter Reality" just lets you copy another spell.
Any spell that doesn't merely replicate the abilities of a mortal is reality warping. In more refined game terms, a spell that doesn't merely replicate the outcome provided by a non-caster.
So Fly is an example. Normally PC races can't fly, no matter how good they get at anything. The Dinosaur Fort spell they previewed is another good example, no non-caster no matter how invested in a crafting skill could create an instantaneous fort of that size. Even the strongest barbarian cannot create the fissures described in the Earthquake spell etc etc.
Well... That's exactly what a high level barbarian can do now xD
Barbarians do get some sweet at will abilities now. Though to be fair they are basically magic in their own right.
Had to go look that up, that is pretty awesome. Not sure whether to move the goal posts and class the barbarian as reality warping or not.Well... That's exactly what a high level barbarian can do now xDSomewhat related question here. Now I don't have the PDF in front of me and it's an older copy so all the spells aren't one to one. Throw on the fact we probably don't have every spell that's going to be in the core book(probably?) And we might be missing some info.
But what sort of reality warping do spell casters HAVE in PF2? I mean even "Alter Reality" just lets you copy another spell.
Any spell that doesn't merely replicate the abilities of a mortal is reality warping. In more refined game terms, a spell that doesn't merely replicate the outcome provided by a non-caster.
So Fly is an example. Normally PC races can't fly, no matter how good they get at anything. The Dinosaur Fort spell they previewed is another good example, no non-caster no matter how invested in a crafting skill could create an instantaneous fort of that size. Even the strongest barbarian cannot create the fissures described in the Earthquake spell etc etc.
Playtest Barbarians can become pretty darn magical at higher levels. Being able to turn into a giant or dragon even. They certainly aren't as mundane as they previously were. Although you can pick the Fury totem to play a mundane barbarian. It does provide for both the people who want their martials to be mundane and down to earth as well as those who want over-the-top crazy abilities. They covered that pretty well. Also a caveat on the ability to fly, it's in 18 second increments with at least 6 to cool down between. So it's not good for overland travel, but awesome for tactical positioning.
How much caster-martial disparity there is depends a lot on how good the GM and adventure are at creating a sense of urgency.On a tangent unrelated to caster stuff, but honestly, I think sense of urgency is overused. It seems almost a crutch that is relied upon too much. I understand it's purpose, and it's a great tool to keep tension and keep players from faffing about so much, doing unrelated things. At least once in a while. But it just seems like there's too much of it in APs and such. The world is always blowing up, no time to catch your breath, no time for anything, just go, go, go!. It just gets exhausting after a while. I'd love to have some more relaxed adventures where you can take your time and have side-adventures. And Paizo created a formalized system for downtime, but in their own APs, there is almost never any downtime available, it's almost always a race against time.
Relatedly, I think the stakes are often too high. When everything is apocalyptic, it starts to lose it's impact. Having some lower stakes now and then is fine. Not everything has to be world-shaking.
I don't mean to derail the thread, but this is something that's been bugging me for a while. I'm hoping that with the introduction of a formal downtime mechanic, Paizo will provide time to use it in their Adventure Paths going forward.
All 3 of the APs I've run have downtime. One of them is pretty light on it, but it's still there. The other two have significant opportunities for downtime and specify as such.
I'd also say true time crunches are pretty rare. My APs have you trying to stop a threat that is "weeks" away, which is enough to prevent faffing about but not enough to stop you from resting pretty much as you want. You usually wind up in a true rush in at least one book of an AP, but it hasn't been the norm in my experience.
Which APs are these with significant downtime? I'm curious. Most of the ones I've done don't seem to have much if any. It might just be the selection of APs that we've done, or possibly how the GM ran them.
Legacy of Fire: I don't really recall a lot. But I think at least near the end you've got a race against time.
Carrion Crown (I'm going to be running this soon): your basically racing from the beginning. You have to take 30 days in Ravengro, but you're on a timer for bad things to happen. After you fix that you can take the rest of the 30 days as downtime. Part two you have a deadline and then from part three onward it's a straight up chase).
Jade Regent: We didn't finish, but this one didn't have much of a time crunch from the parts I saw, particularly with it all being a long overland journey.
Skull and Shackles: This one was also a much more leisurely paced with some semi-sandbox elements.
Wrath of the Righteous: I think this was a bit of a mix, but near the end certainly had a time crunch.
Strange Aeons: Lots of time crunch.
Ironfang Invasion (we've got one session left most likely): Very much time crunch, especially at the end.
Other APs we've had them heavily adapted, so I can't really tell how they're written. But Iron Gods and Ruins of Azlant seem to become races.
In general, it seems downtime is mostly limited to the beginning, while the later part of the AP becomes a race. More sandboxy APs like Kingmaker and Skull and Shackles have more downtime. And there is the point that it's often not an actual timer but more of a vague "You need to hurry!" But I'd say downtime is most useful at higher levels anyway, so you're also mostly getting it when it's not as important.
I'm not against time pressure, I'd just like a bit less.
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Which APs are these with significant downtime? I'm curious. Most of the ones I've...How much caster-martial disparity there is depends a lot on how good the GM and adventure are at creating a sense of urgency.On a tangent unrelated to caster stuff, but honestly, I think sense of urgency is overused. It seems almost a crutch that is relied upon too much. I understand it's purpose, and it's a great tool to keep tension and keep players from faffing about so much, doing unrelated things. At least once in a while. But it just seems like there's too much of it in APs and such. The world is always blowing up, no time to catch your breath, no time for anything, just go, go, go!. It just gets exhausting after a while. I'd love to have some more relaxed adventures where you can take your time and have side-adventures. And Paizo created a formalized system for downtime, but in their own APs, there is almost never any downtime available, it's almost always a race against time.
Relatedly, I think the stakes are often too high. When everything is apocalyptic, it starts to lose it's impact. Having some lower stakes now and then is fine. Not everything has to be world-shaking.
I don't mean to derail the thread, but this is something that's been bugging me for a while. I'm hoping that with the introduction of a formal downtime mechanic, Paizo will provide time to use it in their Adventure Paths going forward.
All 3 of the APs I've run have downtime. One of them is pretty light on it, but it's still there. The other two have significant opportunities for downtime and specify as such.
I'd also say true time crunches are pretty rare. My APs have you trying to stop a threat that is "weeks" away, which is enough to prevent faffing about but not enough to stop you from resting pretty much as you want. You usually wind up in a true rush in at least one book of an AP, but it hasn't been the norm in my experience.
'How the GM ran them' is a pretty significant factor in the APs that I've looked through myself - a lot of them say things like 'here's a good point for some downtime, but you can move right on to the next part if you prefer'. I imagine many GMs do the latter more than they do the former.
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Which APs are these with significant downtime? I'm curious.
Rise of the Runelords explicitly tells GMs to give players time to craft magic items and otherwise settle into the town. There's rarely (if ever) a real ticking clock, and months explicitly pass between books. There is even a magic forge the PCs are expected to use to make magic items as part of the quest.
I only read books 1-3 of Carrion Crown, but they each had at least one point where you could take some downtime. Post Harrowstone, post trial/pre-Schloss, and at Ascanor Lodge all spring to mind.
Oh, and I didn't run Giant Slayer but I've listened to it on the Glass Cannon Podcast to nearly the end of book 4, and the PCs there have found time to craft and they rest so often it sometimes feels ridiculous.
I suspect Fowlj is correct, and your GM may not be running the APs at more of a marathon pace then they suggest. (Which is a legitimate choice that the APs empowers GMs to make, but clashes a little bit with your expectations.)
I have run three Paizo Adventure Paths from beginning to end (well, I started Rise of the Runelords as a player) and know their downtime.
Rise of the Runelords has relaxed downtime at 4th level, 10th level, and 13th level. They can squeeze downtime between the other events in my synopsis.
2. The Skinsaw Murders - The downtime slowly turns into an adventure as mysterious murders, about one a week, strike Sandpoint. At the end, the players are immediately sent on their next adventure.
3. Hook Mountain Massacre - The unbroken transition from the previous module is broken by the weeks of travel to reach the region of Hook Mountain, Fort Rannick, and Turtleback Ferry. In the end, the module offers the party a chance to stay at Fort Rannick for months, rebuilding it into their own outpost.
4. Fortress of Stone Giants - This one does not begin at Fort Rannick; instead, it begins with a new raid on Sandpoint, a 10th-level raid by giants. It ends abruptly at the Fortress of the Stone Giants.
5. Sins of the Saviors - The moment the bad guy is defeated at the Fortress of the Stone Giants, an energy surge causes an explosion at Sandpoint, opening up a passage deep underground. Too bad the party is hundreds of miles away, so they arrive late to the beginning of their own adventure, after several town guards died investigating the passage. Messages found underground tell them how to reach the Runeforge, a secret military laboratory lost in the astral plane that can provide the weapons they need to defeat the villain of the 6th module. They can take downtime to prepare before going on an expedition to the Runeforge. At the end of the module, however, they fight an avatar of their enemy, who was warned by a Runeforge agent.
6. The Spires of Xin-Shalast - Their enemy taunting them at the previous module puts the party on an urgent schedule. Except that first, they have to find the lost city of Xin-Shalast, which requires lengthy travel and research.
The plot in Jade Regent is fairly continuous, but my players managed to keep their mission secret from their future opponents, so in theory they could take a break any time they defeated the local enemies.
50. Night of Frozen Shadows - The first city north of Brinewall is Kalsgard. Encounters on the road to Kalsgard start the storyline of the adventure. The PCs' goal is Kalsgard is to find a caravan for further travel, which is a downtime activity, but the Frozen Shadows plot interrupts them so they don't get downtime. By the time they deal with the Frozen Shadows, they don't have any time for anything but the caravan.
51. The Hungry Storm - This module is an arduous journey over the northern ice cap. Encounters are usually several days apart, and I let three party members do crafting during the half the night via Rings of Sustenance while the caravan was camped.
52. Forest of Spirits The day the party finishes their journey over the ice cap at the city of Ordu-Aganhei, the prince of the city issues them an invitation and their new adventure begins. When they leave Ordu-Aganhei, they have a mission to the Forest of Spirits, which turns out to not be urgent after all. Thus, I redirected the party to the Ruby Phoenix Tournament for a side quest, and they could have taken downtime.
53. Tide of Honor - The party reaches Minkai, joins the rebellion, and conquers a fortress. The module is a series of missions with opportunities for downtime between missions.
54. The Empty Throne - This module is the last mission. The players could interrupt the mission for downtime, but that would delay their victory.
Iron Gods is nearly a series of disconnected adventures with a unifying theme, so the PCs automatically have downtime between modules.
86. Lords of Rust - The trouble in Torch came from Scrapwall, so the party travels there. The module has them encountering the gangs of Scrapwall with one confrontation leading to another without downtime of more than a day between them. By players took more control of the plot and had as much downtime as they wanted.
87. The Choking Tower - The PCs could take years off before The Choking Tower without affecting the plot. They are seeking Casandalee, who lived centuries ago and by all rights should be dead of mishap or old age. After visiting her last known location in Iadenveigh, they learn her true location in the Choking Tower and have no reason to hurry. The last clue sends them to an isolated valley for the next module, and they still don't need to hurry.
88. Valley of the Brain Collectors - This module starts slowly because they must explore the valley. It ends with them gaining key information for going to Silver Mount. The party should have enthusiasm but no urgency.
89. Palace of Fallen Stars - This module suggests that the party should steal the secret safe route up Silver Mount from the Technic League. The rest of the module is interesting side quests that the party would take only from their own motives, such as a feud with the Technic League. Unless the Technic League is actively hunting the party, they can take their time, as my players did.
90. The Divinity Drive - The party reaches Silver Mount. The place is too dangerous to dawdle. The module does not say how far the bad guy is from finishing his evil plan, so any urgency would have to be added by the GM.
Yeah, it does sound like a lot of this is based on the GM's interpretation or style. Although it does seem like there is usually a time crunch at least once or twice in each AP, especially at the end.
Yeah, it does sound like a lot of this is based on the GM's interpretation or style. Although it does seem like there is usually a time crunch at least once or twice in each AP, especially at the end.
That feels pretty natural though, doesn't it? Like, at some point over the course of 17 or so levels you are going to be dealing with stuff that doesn't sit around waiting for you.
I also think the APs culminating in something world threatening is a pretty natural result of going that high up in levels. You need some pretty epic scale for that level of power. And to an extent just having it be a linear story. Like, I could imagine having something where you are just kind of go hunt powerful monsters for lols, but it feels like less of an adventure path and more like a sandbox setting to just let people play around in. Which, BTW, Paizo actually kind of already does in their campaign setting books. Those are just chalk full of sidequest ideas without giving you a formal structure.
By comparison, PFS modules might be more of what you are looking for. From what I've seen of them, the stakes tend to lower and the problems are more localized. And their non-contiguous nature means you can easily fill the space between modules with downtime.
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Also a caveat on the ability to fly, it's in 18 second increments with at least 6 to cool down between. So it's not good for overland travel, but awesome for tactical positioning.Had to go look that up, that is pretty awesome. Not sure whether to move the goal posts and class the barbarian as reality warping or not.Well... That's exactly what a high level barbarian can do now xDSomewhat related question here. Now I don't have the PDF in front of me and it's an older copy so all the spells aren't one to one. Throw on the fact we probably don't have every spell that's going to be in the core book(probably?) And we might be missing some info.
But what sort of reality warping do spell casters HAVE in PF2? I mean even "Alter Reality" just lets you copy another spell.
Any spell that doesn't merely replicate the abilities of a mortal is reality warping. In more refined game terms, a spell that doesn't merely replicate the outcome provided by a non-caster.
So Fly is an example. Normally PC races can't fly, no matter how good they get at anything. The Dinosaur Fort spell they previewed is another good example, no non-caster no matter how invested in a crafting skill could create an instantaneous fort of that size. Even the strongest barbarian cannot create the fissures described in the Earthquake spell etc etc.
Yeah see that's the thing, didn't most spells get nerfed to the point they are only useful in short bursts or just damage now? I mean I think of Reality bending as the Wizard that has 5 demi planes, Time Stop Spam, Unlimited summoning, and other insanity.
Even Earthquake just seem like "I have natural Disaster on call" which might be some bending but nothing that would probably bend if to break the laws of reality.
But I have a different magic scale in my head I suppose.
MerlinCross, dude, just invisibility is already pretty reality bending right there. Not only the implications of this in the world are huge, but the fact that you still manage to function perfectly while invisible is bonkers. This is a very minor effect compared to these others you mentioned.
Summon extraplanar creatures, call lighting/fire/stone/void/ice/wind are also pretty reality-breaking stuff that only casters (and equivalent) can do, although not as huge as stopping time or creating another plane.
I just wish there was more thought put into how magic behaves in the world pathfinder is supposed to help create along with a consistent set of rules that can create guidelines (this is a very specific word, because boundaries aren't a good thing in this case) on what casters can and can't do. This would definitely help creating insanely strong and crazy spells while also creating constraints and allowing balance to be put. It's very hard to create something NOT insanely good when the spell is just a Standard Action (PF1e) has full effect instantly and also often doesn't cost anything other than spell slots (renewable source)and money (doesn't have any actual immediate impact and can be worked around).
MerlinCross, dude, just invisibility is already pretty reality bending right there. Not only the implications of this in the world are huge, but the fact that you still manage to function perfectly while invisible is bonkers. This is a very minor effect compared to these others you mentioned.
Summon extraplanar creatures, call lighting/fire/stone/void/ice/wind are also pretty reality-breaking stuff that only casters (and equivalent) can do, although not as huge as stopping time or creating another plane.
I just wish there was more thought put into how magic behaves in the world pathfinder is supposed to help create along with a consistent set of rules that can create guidelines (this is a very specific word, because boundaries aren't a good thing in this case) on what casters can and can't do. This would definitely help creating insanely strong and crazy spells while also creating constraints and allowing balance to be put. It's very hard to create something NOT insanely good when the spell is just a Standard Action (PF1e) has full effect instantly and also often doesn't cost anything other than spell slots (renewable source)and money (doesn't have any actual immediate impact and can be worked around).
Again, we have different ideas of what "bending reality" is.
PF2, it's one minute so I hope you or your DM has a good idea of how fast certain actions are and it's still gone the moment you do any attack. I don't see that as busted but I didn't see PF1 as busted either.
This is however starting to get into "This is how I view the world vs how you see it" and that's pretty subjective