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You know what I am bowing out. This is like arguing with someone that 50cc engine on a moped has the same potential as 1300cc one.
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If I hold out 5 fingers and ask someone how many fingers I am holding up, any answer other than 5 is wrong. It does not matter if they see me holding up a different amount. Granted this is certainly more complex thing but the same idea applies. And for the record I have read every post on the thread. I am not talking about perception. I can find someone saying the earth is flat, that does not make it anymore true. I am pretty sure that if you took the picture of Amiri and imposed a picture of someone in that 10% over her you couldn't see Amiri even with that armor on, with the exception of legs. So I do not see the guarantee failing, cause I view those statements in this thread as a matter of opinion. While I see my own POV based on closer to measurable things. Just to give an example someone who has circumfance of their forearm of 6inches/15cm is not someone who has incredible strenght in those forearms. Granted I do not have actual measurement but you can make educated guesses on the picture.
If I hold out 5 fingers and ask someone how many fingers I am holding up, any answer other than 5 is wrong. It does not matter if they see me holding up a different amount. Granted this is certainly more complex thing but the same idea applies. And for the record I have read every post on the thread. That is only true if being at a certain level of strength does not have a prequisites of certain physique. And just to clarify the statement about it being more complex is me admitting it isn't as clear cut as the fingers. However I maintain that the picture doesn't have the muscle mass or structure required of someone who is in the upper tiers of strenght.
If I hold out 5 fingers and ask someone how many fingers I am holding up, any answer other than 5 is wrong. It does not matter if they see me holding up a different amount. Granted this is certainly more complex thing but the same idea applies. And for the record I have read every post on the thread.
Maybe because I am not a native speaker, but the expression. "false fact" is excatly claiming that her physique is remotely grounded in reality. Only option I see as possible that not being the case if s/he misunderstood me about not talking about physique grounded in reality. I have stated that if someone minds or doesn't is a matter of preference. I have never stated otherwise. My argument has been that the lack of said belivability makes the design bad in my opinion. We can't argue to any real meaning if such a matter makes the design bad or not. But we most certainly can about if that matter exist or not. And I have been arguing it does. And I maintain my position that those that disagree with that statement are wrong.
Go ahead then and find me a person that is in say even the top 10% of humans in feats of strength that has a physique like Amiri in the above picture. And 10% is quite generous considering 18STR. And make it 10% of females since in PF there isn't a difference between the sexes. I will guarantee that such a person does not exist.
@thejeff: The quote section is coming too long to work so I will respond without them. Hopefully that won't make things too laborsome to understand that I am referring to. Unless I am misremembering in the playtest at least all races even ones with penalty to a stat had the same maxium of 18. That may change with the final version but I doubt it. (or may have changed even during the playtest.) And just because someone doesn't perceive something doesn't suddenly make it not exist. I am stating it is a fact that Amiri in the art does not have the physique to justify her strength score. I am saying that people who do not think so are flat out wrong. There is room for debate where in the scale of human strength performance her looks fall but it isn't at the top. I am not calling them liars I am calling the position they hold to be false.
And how exactly is that relevant to discussing the appearance of a human character? Or is snark all you are capable for supporting your side of the argument? As noted already I would expect said races members with high strength to also look muscular.(not necessarily defined though). That being said I do think that small races should not be allowed to have the same maximum STR as medium sized races. It's not a massive issue to me but it is one of those things that add on to the pile of things that stretch my suspension of disbelief. Granted due to how strength works in proportion to body size those races could be surprisingly strong for their size.(look at say a chimp) But the emphasis on that is for their size. Now if someone doesn't care that Amiri or whatever character for that matter, physique does not match what it is supposed to look like according to their capabilities, that is a matter of opinion and preference. However it is not a matter of opinion if they do or don't. And in this specific case it is blatantly obvious for someone with even casual experience in how humans who are highly above average in their physical capabilities look that the art does not even remotely resemble it.
And how exactly is that relevant to discussing the appearance of a human character? Or is snark all you are capable for supporting your side of the argument?
Yeah that slim torso is the main clue as to why she looks 'weak', To clarify weak in comparison to her stated STR score.(imo she looks like a 12 at tops 14 and that is really stretching it.) Her arms are skinny too, her legs actually look somewhat strong. Note that said pictures have athletes what covers what underwear would do. So even if not sexualized, I figured it would be polite to 'warn' about it. Anyways if you look at the women in those pictures the only ones that has even close to as slim torso as Amiri in the picture above is a golfer and long distance runners. Where as a swordfighter probably should look like a wrestler/boxer/martial artist in their physique. And not one in the lighter weight divisions either considering the assumed STR of 18, and the fact that Amiri wouldn't have to make weight class so no need for weight cuts which results in less defination. Sure you could look at the athletes walk around weight but you are less likely to find pictures of that.
Only use 1 weapon is not really true anyway. If we take away weapon focus , improved critical feats, assuming you have profiency and are not talking about ranged weapons, it is mostly about broad categories. Fighter is a bit tighter with their weapon groups but for rest of the martials it is more like:
So as long as the weapon you find fits within your broad category you will be fine with it. And I personally do not think it is unreasonable that a character whose fighting style is normally with reach weapon doing BFC doesn't do as well with sword and board. Barbarian doesn't really care if they are using a greatsword, great axe or earthbreaker for the most part.
If we assume that they fix the broken ass spell DC vs Saves, properly it will certainly help. But for hypothetical blaster focused mage, this is where I think the math should be. If we assume 4 encounters per day. For blasting the 2 highest spell slots are relevant. So you have 2 relevant spells per encounter. This is blaster so they should have metamagic to help, so they are spending 3 actions to cast. I say the damage of those spells should be equal to twohanded weapon user hitting with all 3 attacks for the highest level slot and 2-2,5 for the second highest, assuming failed save. My opinion is based on the fact that they are spending all their top 2 slots to accomplish this with rest of the casting regelated to minor significance. Where as the weapon user should be averaging something like equilevant of 2 strikes a round during the entire fight. AoE vs Single target spells naturally should have different math. And yes the 2 handed is what a dedicated blaster should be compared to given that both are builds focused on offense opposed to defense, specifically DPR. Granted I think a lot better idea would be to increase the anemic amount of spell slots that was cut in half.
Oh I am sure the lightning rail would have rammed into battletitan or something. We will just walk everywhere from now on. :P
Considering this and the start of the last game...I am noticing a pattern. Note to self: Never get on a ship in Aubreys game :P
You do realize that penetration of 16mm would not hurt the wearer? The point of the arrow would not even come close to touching skin. Regardless we have derailed enough, if you want to continue the discussion shoot me a PM.
While you are correct that modern testing of arrows v plate armor shows that plate would have been largely effective in stopping arrows, remember that those tests are done for battlefield conditions in the Middle Ages. Most tests were simulating archers firing from 750 feet away. No weapon in pathfinder has a range of longer than 120 feet. So, while a longbow might not have pierced plate when fired at an arc to cover the length of the battle field, the results at close range would be vastly different. Link provided as proof I am not pulling this out of my butt. Also there isn't proof within the video about the poundage of the bow so will have to take word for it. (Though casual research showed that at least some of the people involved have some reputation in their respective circles) To save time.
Results were the arrow shaft breaking the arrowheads point flattening(but still fully intact) and a very minor scratch on the breastplate. Granted the bow isn't on the high end of warbows but still very respectable and the range was about as close as one could reasonably expect to fire a bow in a battlefield conditions, or at least close enough that any significant loss of speed shouldn't have happened. Now I realize that I am going off on a tangent of the thread. So let's concentrate on that now. The whole skill DCs and the way they are created are silly because they decided to use the same mechanics for everything. The needs of mechanics for combat are not the same as those from out of combat activities. And even if they were the math/probabilities shouldn't work out the same way. So in the pursuit of simplicity they screwed it up like usual in PF2.
Plate was impenetrable, unless you aimed for a mail-covered articulation or smashed it with a heavy bludgeon.Hmmm.... If you have actually studied Medieval Arms and Armor, then you know that this is flatly untrue. The English long bowmen at Crécy proved this rather decisively. Sometimes fun game play and fidelity to reality don't go hand in hand (you know, like the existence of magic). Unless of course you are in favor of Longbows and Heavy Crossbows ignoring AC entirely (which would do terrible things to melee combat and melee characters), in which case I think you are playing the wrong game. Well your own studies are clearly lacking. While plate is not really impenetrapable it is real good. The term bullet proof comes from breast plates being tested by guns. Heavy crossbows and warbows MIGHT pierce well made plate but it would not get deep enough to get through the padding underneath. On some parts of plate it is thin enough that it might do actual harm(instead of none or too minor) but suggesting that they somehow ignored armor is about as based in reality as swords cutting through the steel. Even the battle you cited has the French king have two horses killed from under him, yet still only suffered an arrow to the jaw(not unlikely by a shot bypassing the armor or visor raised), so I would say his armor held up just fine. All that said yeah the game part has to come first. Even the armor as AC is profoundly illogical instead of it working as DR. Just decided to pipe up when seeing nonsense.
Okay I figured most of the stuff for shopping. If something needs pitching in I got some money left over. -Map (50)
Now would it be possible to buy a phrasebook for the local language?
with 300gp a pop I don't think 2nd level spell potions are within our budget. Especially given we have a warpriest in the party. Scrolls might be an option though still a bit pricey. Those naturally have the downside of who can use them. If someone has crafting feats all the pricing stuff goes out the window. To keep the post constructive some possible alternatives/additions. 1) The CLW wand discussed earlier. 750gp for average of 275HP
Just dotting the thread.
Oh you mean almost every single character that wants to swing a weapon in the game? Yeah that's where the depth is gone in PF1. Everyone just makes glass cannon alpha strike builds since it's the most effective way at fighting creatures above your level. So far in PF2 my group has had to actually think and plan out their turns when they aren't playing casters which has almost never happened in PF1. Isn't that the definition of depth? You have way more choices to make in combat as every class except for maybe wizard. Even then, with the new action system it feels like you can do more in a turn: like attack and cast a spell without having to take feats. Just because you play with people who aren't aware of possibilities or unwilling to put effort in isn't issue with the system.
The real measuremeant isn't near-optimal choices. It is how many meaningful choices you have and more so how meaningful they are. The potential differences between the two editions is colossal, if someone either chooses or is incapable of using that potential, that ain't on the system.
at level 1 yeah sure, it is well known issue that the low levels suck mechanically in the d20 system. The problem is that PF2 never gains any depth comparing level 20 and level 1 to any significant extent. And I just disagree on the statement that PF2 has more depth at the table. Perhaps if you compare to some cookie cutter fighter build that's only purpose is to full attack and nothing else. For the record PF1 is not a particularly deep game. It is on deep side of systems, but there are lot deeper systems than it and some achieve it with lot less complexity. PF2 just happens to be at the very low end of depth, I would say any storyteller system has more depth to it and that is just about as bare bones as a system can get while still being called a system reasonably. As to the work before/during session. Imo it is supposed to be multiplication, your efforts beforehand, be that making a build or much more importantly understanding the underlying mechanics and how they interact is the base you work with and how good you are using what you have, be it with tactical choices, risk assesment or creativity multiplies that.
Reasonable argument. Problem for at least me personally and I reckon good bit of the folks who loathe PF2 is that the pendulum swung way too far towards less depth to the point that we are stretching for it to qualify for the word. If you are casually familiar with videogames look at the diablo immortal fiasco as a comparison.
@PR: Seems ok to me. My character did go around for training after the war so not that likely that a shifter and weapon based fighter might have been at the same place. Same settlement wouldn't be an issue either. If you wanna hammer out details, shoot me PM or if you prefer IM I am on discord. I am leaving for work, so quick post before going. Yeah having met during the war works fine for me.
To be fair, even when you have like here invited group of people, pbp tend to have fairly decent fall out rate. 11 people, so how likely is it that at least one doesn't at some point have some IRL issue that gets in the way.
Lot of people did not/do not consider 4th edition dnd, actual dnd outside of the name, if people are right about that is a matter of opinion. But the point was that it isn't a second edition of a game. It is a new game with a name tagged on and some superficial similarities. It isn't an evolution/continuation of the same game. So it really isn't the next edition it is something else. Also note that I spesificly did not use the pre 4th edition changes between editions as an example that was very delibarate. If it makes it easier to understand, consider early editions checkers, PF1 as chess and then PF2 comes out and instead of say 3d chess or changing how the pieces move we got sink the battleship. Note: I am not here to edition war, so leave the statements made at facevalue.
As someone from the PF1 guard that took a look at the playtest and it imidietly came clear that I wouldn't be joining up. Hell I was fairly sure that would be the case when I saw some of the preview blogs. (This is to give POV for the post.) What paizo did was make a completely new game with only superficial resemblence and slapped on PF2 name. It isn't a second edition in anything but name. You could have just as well take a hypothetical situation of 4e dnd (or 5th) didn't exist in their current forms and have that game and slap PF2 on the cover and it would have as much to do with the first edition of pathfinder as what the playtest showed. What I saw was dumbing down the mechanics, without even getting rid of complexity just changing how it is complex. Any real depth is gone. What I think happened is that they tried very hard to make it easier to write adventures(probably GM too) and as a result took all of the tools away from the players, putting everything in these neat little boxes so you wouldn't have to work so hard to manage it. Not necessarily unreasonable thinking at it's core due to how they conduct business. Though I have always considered their adventures severly under par at best, they seem to be popular and that is what really counts from paizos POV. They are courting a completely different crowd imo, at the very least the demographic that I fall into. Let the rules lite crowd have their own games there is more choice of systems for than ever. And to make matters worse PF2 is in this akwards middle spot that doesn't really cater to either camp, it is needlesly complex for the depth it manages, so it won't really be competing for the rules lite people. And it lacks the depth and sophistication to get the people who don't mind investing more time on the mechanical part of the game if that results in added depth. To use an analogue of videogames, to me it seems more or less that paizo were modders and pretty good at it too, but then they tried to make their own game and failed hard. Again to me it seems they needed that scafolding of 3.5 to work off. But when you consider paizos past it isn't really that surprising. Look at all the kneejerk erratas/faq, they nuke from orbit if something is problematic. Now they just took that attitude to the entire system.
Wouldn't that make 2 groups of 4 and one with 3? Naturally you know the adventure better than any of us. Just that table of 3 tends to in my experience be bit problematic. But you have stressed out the importance of skill spread and that will be a challenge with 3 players. Just an observation of a possible concern.
Good catch, probably messed up due to having 3 things affecting the knowledge skills. Fixed.
I am fine with chipping for a wand or two for healing so casters get to do the actual fun stuff with their slots. @PR: Seems ok to me. My character did go around for training after the war so not that likely that a shifter and weapon based fighter might have been at the same place. Same settlement wouldn't be an issue either. If you wanna hammer out details, shoot me PM or if you prefer IM I am on discord. @Table 2: Due to someone back in the day deciding that 2+INT skill points is enough for a fighter I am a bit limited in skills avenues but I managed a decent set of knowledges.
The info mostly if someone is still deciding what to invest in. And I do have SOME leeway with some skill points so if we have some gap I might manage some sort of patch job.
Seems like a decent split to me. One party is missing on the divine while the other is lacking arcane support.
While I did choose it largely for the niche of reach weapon that is finessable. The weapon it is based off actually does make sense in the context. Granted it is mostly speculation given lack of sources but they think the concept was based on being used against other spears, and if you have 2 handed spear and hence no shield, then 'branches' to aid in parrying/bind work start making sense. Granted it is still rather silly looking weapon. Yeah that was the idea. Not necessarily invented at the time but at least implementation started then on any significant scale. And I am perfectly happy to work with anyone on established relationships.
Well first sorry if this turns out to be wall of text. Also note that this is mostly the starting point and details may change.
Mutagen stuff:
Honestly you are not too far off what I was thinking. More or less a combat drug of yester year (aka plants, probably distilled more potent via alchemy.) My explanation on why it doesn't work for other people is that as you suggested a military program and that you need to slowly build up tolerance and cnditioning the body, and the dosage needed to gain the benefits is potentially fatal without said tolerance.(naturally game mechanics remain the same become nauseated for 1 hour on a failed save)
As to side effects, I was thinking feelings of superiority and over estimation of ones abilities while under the influence, not necessarily unwanted ones as far as the military was concerned.(Also happens to fit the fact that 9/10 I will enhance dex so the penalty is to wisdom.) Long term affects are unknown as there simply hasn't been enough time between implementation and now. As to withdrawl I am thinking becoming irritable the longer it has been up to the point of becoming agressive/violent if extreme time between doses happen. As to openness/secracy regarding the mutagen. Close people know that it's purpose is to help him fight, but the details he keeps to himself(it is afterall military technology). From strangers he keeps it hidden but if for some reason he needs to ingest infront of others he simply calls it "traditional elven medicine." Background stuff:
For broad strokes of the background I was thinking at work. - Born in Elven kingdom that was at the time independent. - Extended family consists for the most part scholars, with significant minorities in soldiers and diplomats. - Later takes part in the war with the empire, which ends in the kingdom being conquread, about decade later self-ruling given in exchange for tribute. - As above during said war the experiment on mutagen happens. As some of his extended family are involved in the development is chosen for the project. - Not that sore about end result in itself, but not happy how it happened. So decides to improve himself, apprenticing to skilled combatants. - With funds running low giving an excuse to look for more pragmatic training starts working as a mercenary wandering around. - Not that satisfied with company he is with starts working in smaller groups and soon enough gets involved with adventuring, finding it more to his liking. Personality stuff:
- Mercenary but has softened up a bit in the recent years. - Is envious about the shorter lived races passion and speed of progress, but still thinks the perceived elven way of slowly striving towards perfection is in the long run better. - Extremely loyal to those he thinks have earned it and to hell with everyone else. - Has a taste for hedonism. - Bettering yourself is the end not the means. - CN with leanings towards good. - There is no such thing as fighting dirty, you are trying to kill each other. Build stuff:
I will work out a proper statblock later but here is what I have so far decided -STR: 14 DEX: 18 CON: 12 INT: 14 WIS: 11 CHA: 10 (Includes 4th level upgrade and racials) -Elf with Loremasters alternate racial trait, replaces elven magic and keen senses. This is to represent being from a family of scholars. -Fighter(Mutation warrior) 4 as mentioned. -Feats: Breadth of Experience, Weapon Finesse, Combat reflexes, Power attack, Weapon specilization (Elven branched spear) -Traits: Civilized, Warrior of old. Skills: Climb +6 (1 rank, 3 class skil, 2 Str), Craft(Alchemy)+6 (1 Rank, 3 class,2Int), Intimidate +5 (2 rank,3 class, 0 Cha), Knowledge(dungeoneering)+8 (1 rank,3 Class,2Int,2 feat), Knowledge(engineering)+8 (1 rank,3 Class,2Int,2 feat), Knowledge(History)+13 (4 rank,3 Class,2Int,2 feat, 2 Racial),Knowledge(Local)+14 (4 rank,3 Class,2 Int,2 feat, 2 racial, 1 trait), Knowledge(Nobility)+9 (1 rank,3 Class,2Int,2 feat, 1 trait), Profession(soldier)+6 (1 rank,3 class, 0 Wis, 2 feat), Ride+8 (1 rank,3 class, 4 Dex), Survival +4 (1 rank,3 class, 0 Wis), Spellcraft +5 (1 rank, 2 Int, 2 racial) Swim+6 (1 rank, 3 class skil, 2 Str). -FCB: +4 Skill points - HP: 34(Roll below)
Alright some questions? Are psionics stuff in the setting, I know you were fine with it mechanically in eberron, but no idea if you like the thematics of it. But as far as character ideas go I am assuming yes for now, and if not feel free to discard the ideas that use it. 1) Elf Psion(kineticist): Build wise essentially a blaster with few fall back to tricks, skill wise will bring a lot of knowledge skills to the table. Personality wise, thinks the empire has the right idea with the whole self improvement and meritocracy stuff, but the divinity is just some human hubris upstarts. Former war-'mage' turned mercenary/adventurer. 2)Orc Druid(Goliath): Build is more or less a melee bruiser that sacrifices some martial skill for additional tricks. Beliver in the who is the strongest makes the rules, not in an abusive sense just thinking that it is the reality of the world, which gets the empire considerable respect from the character, though considers their 'god' to be untested by time. 3) Elf Fighter(Mutagen warrior): Build is martial BFC, combining Elven branched spear and combat reflexes. Former soldier, turned to wandering warrior to hone skills but later started becoming more focused on what he could accomplish with said skills and turned into an adventurer. I am leaning towards the latter one since last time I played a caster and seems there is already some already.
Okay I am mostly posting here now to dot the thread. But to have some content here. I will read up and probably have something by end of the day or at the latest tomorrow after work.
This is Wultram. Well as you can see another new account. Sorry about being gone but I was moving on the weekend, and someone did not know that using a vacuum on a computer can cause static electricity that can cause problems. Got the thing back from 'repair' today, it is beyond screwed so had to get a new one. I think the email I used to create the account doesn't exist anymore(as in the suplier of said email doesn't operate anymore) or my memory is just f**!ed so here I am. I will try to catch up to things asap And yes the nick is most certainly related to current situation. |