Falchion vs Falcata


Advice


I've never played a high level fighter before but just for the fun of it, I am about to play a Steel Bound Fighter. It means I have to pick my character's weapon before I start playing him. I am considering 2 weapons, the falcion and the falcata. The reason is the crit stats, of course. Falchion crits on 18-20/x2. The falcata is 19-20/x3. Mathematically, a 15% chance of doing double damage equals a 10% chance of doing triple damage. So that's a tie mathematically but I'm not so sure it's a tie in role-playing terms.

Also, I am thinking right now that whichever weapon I take, I'll want to wield it two-handed anyway. But I am worried I might come to regret that at higher levels and start wishing I had a shield. The falchion is a two-handed weapon so I'd have to take a feat to use it one-handed. The falcata is a one-handed weapon but It is exotic so I'd have to take a feat to use it at all.

What to do?


I'd add the Falchion to the Polearm/Spears Weapon group with a Versatile Design Weapon modification, to use it with Shield Brace, then buy the resulting exotic proficiency for 1,500 gp with a Opalescent White Pyramid (Ioun Stone).


What feat can you take to wield a falchion one handed?

There are a few ways to get proficiency without paying the feat for it and the falcata can be wielded 1 handed out of the box. If you aren't planning on doing anything that depends on getting crits frequently (panache, critical effect feats, criting with spells, etc.) I'd say the falcata is better mechanically. That said I love the falchion, so if there is a feat to wield it in one hand it might be worth it.


Nodachi is flat superior to falchion, and already in the polearm group. Instead of spending a feat on EWP for falcata you spend it on unhindering shield style.


Wonderstell wrote:
I'd add the Falchion to the Polearm/Spears Weapon group with a Versatile Design Weapon modification, to use it with Shield Brace, then buy the resulting exotic proficiency for 1,500 gp with a Opalescent White Pyramid (Ioun Stone).

Yes, nothing like an opponent figuring out your Achilles Heel with a skill check. After that it's AC 24, hardness 5, 10 HP and not only are you no longer proficient with your weapon, all feats with weapon proficiency as a prereq stop working.

Go with the Nodachi.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
I'd add the Falchion to the Polearm/Spears Weapon group with a Versatile Design Weapon modification, to use it with Shield Brace, then buy the resulting exotic proficiency for 1,500 gp with a Opalescent White Pyramid (Ioun Stone).

Yes, nothing like an opponent figuring out your Achilles Heel with a skill check. After that it's AC 24, hardness 5, 10 HP and not only are you no longer proficient with your weapon, all feats with weapon proficiency as a prereq stop working.

Go with the Nodachi.

Do people actually use Ioun Stones without implanting them or hiding it in a Wayfinder?

That just seems reckless.

Maybe a fun bossfight, though?


I still want to know what this magical feat is that lets you wield a falchion in one hand...


Unhindering shield lets you use a buckler and 2H polearm with no penalties. Not exactly the same as using it one handed.

Edit: correction: unhindering shield is buckler and any weapon, shield brace is anyother shield and polearm.


I wouldn't worry too much about not having a shield at high levels. Better to kill your foes quicker with your two-hander, than to tank longer with your sword and board. The difference is not small.
And even then, Unhindering Shield has been pointed out. You can afford it, should you want to.

As for falchion vs falcata, I remember someone did the math years ago. Iirc, the falcata pulls ahead on average once you get a big enough static bonus - the one rare case where anything beats 18-20/*2.
It's been forever though, so I could remeber incorrectly. And it still costs a feat.

Speaking of, I don't know of a feat to one-hand a falchion. And grabbing an estoc or katana just seems easier, at that point.


The falcata is unique for crits.

100% more damage (x2) 15% of the time (18-20) is equal to 15% more damage.

200% more damage (x3) 10% of the time (19-20) is equal to 20% more damage.

Whoever created the falcata stepped outside of the normal system, where all weapons are 5%, 10% or 15% critical.


Yeah, that comment about the feat was just a mistake. I had to take a feat to use a bastard sword and I until I lookedit up just now, I thought it was because I wanted to use it one-handed.

I saw that thread you are referring to and while I don't question the math, I think it's not as complicated as the guy made it out to be. His point is valid, at some point crit damage overwhelms base damage. That's generally around 19 points of bonus for any weapon -- some a little more, some a little less. But to compare different crit ranges, you just need to calculate expected value. Multiply probability of winning by the payoff. If you're playing a game that gives you a 50-50 chance of doubling your money you are going to break even, right? So the expected value is 1, dead even. An 18-20 crit rage is 15%. 15% x 2 = 0.3. On the average, you will get to apply 30% of your damage via crits. With a 19-20/x3 crit, it's also 30% (10%x3). It doesn't matter if you are doing 10, 20, or 50 points of damage. It's a tie.

Note that the expected value for most weapons is 10% (5% x2). with 4x crit weapons, it's 20% (5% x 4). There is some kind of weird gnome weapon that does 19-20/x4. That's 40%.


@Todor

Read through BadBird's comment again. You're forgetting you would already have gotten half of the damage on a crit with a x2 multiplier normally, making the bonus damage equal to 15% x 1, not 2.

To calculate the bonus dmg from crit chance, multiply the % and the Multiplier subtracted by one.

20/x2 = 5% x (2-1) = 0.05

18-20/x2 = 15% x (2-1) = 0.15

19-20/x3 = 10% x (3-1) = 0.20


I'll put in a vote for the Falcata just for the ability to switch between one-handed and two-handed. Not for the shield but for being able to still attack in a grapple. If you're able to start with a Ring of Freedom of Movement that might not matter though.

I prefer even a Scimitar over a Falchion for just that reason. You lose 1.5 average damage but aren't totally hosed by a fairly common occurrence? Seems plenty worth it to me.


My easy way to look at it is to count how many extra hits of damage I could possibly get out of 20 attacks, if I rolled each number on the d20 once.
So 19-20x2 is 2, 20x3 is 2, 18-20x2 is 3, 20x4 is 3, and the falcata's 19-20x3 is unique in being 4.
I do tend bias my favor to value wider ranges over larger multiples, since it is less common to need x3 or x4 to drop an enemy.


As a mathematician, my main reaction is, "Huh?"

Well, maybe you are trying to make the following point: A roll of 18 does not do zero damage for a falcata. Therefore, the expected value for 18-20 for the falcata is higher than the falchion.

Lets go right to the max and assume you've taken the Improve Crit feat which doubles the crit range of your weapon. The falchion now crits on a 15-20 and the falcata crits on 17-20. Assume a fighter who does 20 points of damage. From 15-20, the falchion would be 40, 40, 40, 40, 40, 40. Obviously, that averages out to 40. But the falcata would be 20, 20, 60, 60, 60, 60. That averages out to 46.6.


I am new to paizo and I am also blind. I have been having a little trouble with the user interface. I posted a reply to your post on a different message.

Anyway, posting a second reply, I can't just pick up a katana later because the Steel Bound Fighter is "bound" to a weapon type that is selected at 1st level. The weapon eventually becomes intelligent. There are pluses and minuses to any archetype but I am playing a big dumb fighter and it will just be really, really cool to have him have an intelligent weapon.The moment the thing "awakens", it will have a higher INT and CHA than the big, dumb fighter.

The Exchange

As others have pointed out, the falcata has a slight edge in terms of damage output.

From a role-playing perspective, the Big Dumb Fighter with an intelligent weapon has two ways to go. A falchion would be a perfect match for someone who walked into a weapon shop and said “I want something really big that’s really good for hitting people where it really hurts” (high crit two-hander). Complementary personalities. The falcata is more of a duelist’s weapon so you could play that as the weapon acting out “why did I get stuck with this lunk?”


Taudis wrote:
I'll put in a vote for the Falcata just for the ability to switch between one-handed and two-handed. Not for the shield but for being able to still attack in a grapple. If you're able to start with a Ring of Freedom of Movement that might not matter though.

If you are using Shield Brace and get grappled, bash them with your shield.

It should be a rare enough occurance, but loosing access to your polearm does not mean you cannot attack.

Nyerkh wrote:
I wouldn't worry too much about not having a shield at high levels.

Shields can make an immense difference in survival at high level. Easily 8 AC and 2-3 extra properties beyond just your armor.

Combine this with Shield Brace, and there is little downside to having a shield.


High level is also when AC stops becoming your absolute first line of defense. It doesn't become useless, but you have to struggle with the fact that the real bruisers will hit you anyway quite often, and failing a save is more likely to take you out of a fight than taking a hit.
Again, not saying it magically becomes useless overnight. There are however many other ways to boost it that don't eat feats. I guess this is a fighter thread though, so much less of an issue indeed.

I'd still argue you'd be better off grabbing Unhindering Shield than Shield Brace. Considering the weapons OP is looking at, anyway. It's easier and you don't lose much.
I'd go Shield Brace with something like a Fauchard, though.
Or any other polearm/spear. Although since katanas are an issue I'll assume so are nodachis (and the other non-occidental weapons).
And if I'm being honest, I also just don't like Versatile Design, which is a factor I'll admit to.

To sum up that choice :
If you have the extra feat and want a shield you can use to bash people's teeth in, go for Shield Brace.
If shield bashing is not relevant to you and you see a better use for the one feat it'd save you, Unhindering Shield.

Kind of the same regarding weapons really.
Falcatas are slightly superior, probably more satisfying as well, but cost a feat.
You're already looking at the high levels, so look at your planned build and check if you can afford it, or if there's something more relevant you want to get.
Generations of bdf past taught us martial weapons were good enough to get the job done, but the falcata is one of those few exotic weapons that can be worth investing in.

Stacking both the falcata and Shield Brace is a net two feats swing, which is a bit much for me. I'd stick with one or the other. Up to you though.


Todor wrote:
go right to the max and assume you've taken the Improve Crit feat which doubles the crit range of your weapon. The falchion now crits on a 15-20 and the falcata crits on 17-20. Assume a fighter who does 20 points of damage. From 15-20, the falchion would be 40, 40, 40, 40, 40, 40. Obviously, that averages out to 40. But the falcata would be 20, 20, 60, 60, 60, 60. That averages out to 46.6.

When you discount a x3 crit weapon's greater tendency to "waste" damage on massive overkill, I'd go with the wider threat-range.

IMO, the best weapons aren't the ones which do the most damage, but the ones which provide the most combat flexibility. I.e., "Can you use it in a grapple?" (Advantage: one-handed weapons.) Or: "Can I full-attack that thing 35' away?" (Advantage: polearms while Enlarged.)


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Nyerkh wrote:
but you have to struggle with the fact that the real bruisers will hit you anyway quite often,

With a high AC build, even the biggest bruisers will struggle to hit you.

A 50+ AC is more than feasible for a fighter with a shield, meaning even a red great wyrm would need to roll a 15+ to hit with a primary attack.

Additional properties include Mirrored, allowing you to apply enhancement bonuses to touch AC vs rays.

Choosing to use a shield, or not, has no impact on a fighter's saving throws, but it significantly impacts his ability to withstand the most common form of attack at high level. In the above example, the +8 AC from a shield changes the dragons hit chance from 70% to 30%. A significant reduction in damage taken.

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