Shields are too easily destroyed.

[Kodyboy]

I really like the shield blocking reaction, it makes shields different from armor and is cool. The problem that I had while playing a few encounters is that shield get dented/broken far too quickly. In a standard adventure shields end up being disposable items too quickly.
I would suggest increasing the number of dents maybe to six or ten before the broken condition applies.

[Laik]

Actually, in real life wooden shield WERE the disposable part of equipment. Considering that every disposed shield saves one's life, ppl never minded to have an extra one in their luggage :)

[epigonebw]

The direction they're going in, which I think is cool, is that we use craft checks to repair our shields in between fights, which makes sense. Better shields and better shield users (class feats) can make shields last longer. The cheap shields we buy shouldn't be able to take so much damage, IMO

[Ninja in the Rye]

Shield block is absolutely horrible since shields have such pathetically low hardness that any attack beyond very low levels is going to break them in one hit and they barely block any actual HP damage from reaching you.

I thought they looked pretty weak in the podcast when they were using 9 hardness for the shields, but 5 is just hilariously bad.

It also takes an hour to remove a dent from a Shield, so, no, repairing your shield after combat is just going to slow you down too much for it to be useful.

[Kodyboy]

Laik wrote:

Actually, in real life wooden shield WERE the disposable part of equipment. Considering that every disposed shield saves one's life, ppl never minded to have an extra one in their luggage :)

True but it will be annoying in game play to always have to carry around piles of shields.

[Kodyboy]

Ninja in the Rye wrote:

Shield block is absolutely horrible since shields have such pathetically low hardness that any attack beyond very low levels is going to break them in one hit and they barely block any actual HP damage from reaching you.

I thought they looked pretty weak in the podcast when they were using 9 hardness for the shields, but 5 is just hilariously bad.

It also takes an hour to remove a dent from a Shield, so, no, repairing your shield after combat is just going to slow you down too much for it to be useful.

I agree. Maybe the shield stops half the hardness amount and double the hardness to keep them from being obliterated by the first hit.

[Kodyboy]

Ninja in the Rye wrote:

Shield block is absolutely horrible since shields have such pathetically low hardness that any attack beyond very low levels is going to break them in one hit and they barely block any actual HP damage from reaching you.

I thought they looked pretty weak in the podcast when they were using 9 hardness for the shields, but 5 is just hilariously bad.

It also takes an hour to remove a dent from a Shield, so, no, repairing your shield after combat is just going to slow you down too much for it to be useful.

Meh, I think it will be more annoying than anything.

[epigonebw]

I think what we might be forgetting here is all items reduce damage dealt to them by their hardness. A shield with 5 hardness gets raised for a shield block. The monster rolls 9 damage to the hero. The hero takes 4 damage and the shield does NOT dent, because the shield only took 4 damage.

If we read page 175 under "Item damage," it states in the second line, "An item reduces any damage dealt to it by its Hardness." They even give an example in the section too.

[GreatCowGuru]

epigonebw wrote:

I think what we might be forgetting here is all items reduce damage dealt to them by their hardness. A shield with 5 hardness gets raised for a shield block. The monster rolls 9 damage to the hero. The hero takes 4 damage and the shield does NOT dent, because the shield only took 4 damage.

If we read page 175 under "Item damage," it states in the second line, "An item reduces any damage dealt to it by its Hardness." They even give an example in the section too.

Just to add to that the example in that same section on page 175

"For instance, a wooden shield (Hardness 3) that takes 10 damage would take 2 Dents."

Blocking 9 or less before denting at early levels isn't terrible I think thats also where the shields had 9 hardness before misconception came from.

[Ninja in the Rye]

GreatCowGuru wrote:

epigonebw wrote:

I think what we might be forgetting here is all items reduce damage dealt to them by their hardness. A shield with 5 hardness gets raised for a shield block. The monster rolls 9 damage to the hero. The hero takes 4 damage and the shield does NOT dent, because the shield only took 4 damage.

If we read page 175 under "Item damage," it states in the second line, "An item reduces any damage dealt to it by its Hardness." They even give an example in the section too.

Just to add to that the example in that same section on page 175

"For instance, a wooden shield (Hardness 3) that takes 10 damage would take 2 Dents."

Blocking 9 or less before denting at early levels isn't terrible I think thats also where the shields had 9 hardness before misconception came from.

The 9 Hardness misconception most likely comes from the fact that normal steel objects have a Hardness of 9 while thin ones have a hardness of 5. Someone just looked at the wrong line, if we assume that they didn't intentionally change the hardness of shields at some point.

[Asgetrion]

Laik wrote:

Actually, in real life wooden shield WERE the disposable part of equipment. Considering that every disposed shield saves one's life, ppl never minded to have an extra one in their luggage :)

Yeah, but real life warriors (such as vikings) didn't have to wade through dungeons. It's a problem if your shield gets dented in every fight, especially if magical shields are almost as vulnerable as non-magical ones. And now that you have to spend an action to "raise your shield", I'm almost inclined to say that shields are nigh-useless, it's far better to go with a two-handed weapon.

[Dekalinder]

Blocking twice 5 damage means 10 extra HP per combat. Considering that even martial HP usialli hover around 20-22 at fist level, that means 50% extra temp HP per fight. During the span of 6 fight you will have almost tripled you effective HP. Doesn't sound weak to me.

The only thing I would personally change is the double dent rule, because it makes really painfull risking to block an attack when the shield has already a single dent.

[Megistone]

If I read the rules correctly, a shield (or an item, in general) never goes from dented to destroyed.
The only way to destroy an item is to dent it when it's already broken.

EDIT: well, I realized there may be different interpretations of the rule, and I'd like to have it clarified.
Also, I'm not sure that doing 9 damage to an hardness 5 item doesn't dent it.

[Rahod]

So Living Steel is going sought after...

[O. N.]

How I read it, is that, assuming a Hardness of, say, 10, ANY damage BELOW that would actually be... resisted by the shield, and not dent it. It's when it's a lot of damage at once that shields die. I suppose it would be like having really conditional DR.

I'm not sure what's actually intented here, if we are supposed to track the shield's "HP" or not, but it's also true that you can spend time repairing it every morning while the magic dudes do their prepaprations, so I wouldn't mind too much if that were the case.

[Mechalibur]

Yeah this definitely needs some clarifications. While any object reduces damage dealt to it by its hardness, the rules text for shield block reads:

"Your shield prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to its Hardness— the shield takes this damage instead, possibly becoming dented or broken."

But how would it possibly become dented or broken if it reduces damage dealt to itself by its hardness?

[David Silver - Ponyfinder]

Mechalibur wrote:

Yeah this definitely needs some clarifications. While any object reduces damage dealt to it by its hardness, the rules text for shield block reads:

"Your shield prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to its Hardness— the shield takes this damage instead, possibly becoming dented or broken."

But how would it possibly become dented or broken if it reduces damage dealt to itself by its hardness?

A shield, when shield blocking, will only block up to its hardness.

This is enough to dent it.
This will never be enough to double dent it. You cannot be critted to shield explosion, ever. It's just not in the rules since there is no sunder move just yet.

Big bad goes SMASH 30 damage.

Your shield has a hardness of, say, 8, you take 22, the shield takes a dent, end.
The shield can do this a few more times before it gives up the ghost. You can just choose to stop shield blocking when its given all it can before it explodes. It never HAS to explode. Take your extra HP, thank your shield as you repair it.

[Mechalibur]

If that's true then the rules on object hardness need to specify they don't apply to raised shields.

[Kodyboy]

If the hardness is deducted first then any overflow can possibly dent the shield that makes sense. If not they are still to flimsy.
Why is armor thicker material than a shield, can't you just make a "thicker" shield?

[David Silver - Ponyfinder]

Mechalibur wrote:

If that's true then the rules on object hardness need to specify they don't apply to raised shields.

The rules on object hardness are fine.

The rules on shieldblock already say it takes damage up to its hardness. Both rules are fine.

If a shield is laying there and you hit it with a hammer, basic hardness rules are all you need.

If a guy is holding the shield and does a shieldblock, shieldblock says it takes damage UP TO its hardness (just enough to dent, as per the hardness rules).

[Mechalibur]

From this thread it's clear I'm not the only person who was confused by the rules. Would a single line of text for clarification in the object hardness section be that big of a deal?

[Culach]

Actually, that isn't true.

In the demo I played at PaizoCon I had a shield take 2 dents in a single blow. The text on page 175 also states this to be true.

Quote:

For instance, a wooden shield (Hardness 3) that takes 10 damage would take 2 Dents. A typical item can take only 1 Dent without becoming broken. A second Dent causes it to become broken, though it can still be repaired.

That is direct from the book and corresponds with actual my play experience at PaizoCon.

[David Silver - Ponyfinder]

Culach wrote:

Actually, that isn't true.

In the demo I played at PaizoCon I had a shield take 2 dents in a single blow. The text on page 175 also states this to be true.

Quote:

For instance, a wooden shield (Hardness 3) that takes 10 damage would take 2 Dents. A typical item can take only 1 Dent without becoming broken. A second Dent causes it to become broken, though it can still be repaired.

That is direct from the book and corresponds with actual my play experience at PaizoCon.

This is true. If a wooden shield takes 10 damage, 2 dents.

Now read shieldblock. The wooden shield will never take 10 damage from it. It literally cannot.

If they didn't intend this, they wrote it poorly.

I think this thread agrees that this needs some revision for clarity.

[FitzTheRuke]

Hmmm. We have multiple valid interpretations.

You have a hardness 5 shield and you block 9 points of damage:
1: The shield takes a dent and you take 4 damage.
2: The shield does not take a dent and you take 4 damage (because the shield also only takes 4 damage)

You have a hardness 5 shield and you block 12 points of damage:
1: The shield takes a dent, and you take 7 damage.
2: The shield takes 2 dents (and is broken) and you take 7 damage (because the shield also takes 7, after taking 5)

You have a hardness 5 shield and you take 20 points of damage:
1: The shield takes a dent and you take 15 damage.
2: The shield is totally destroyed and you take 15 damage.
(because the shield still takes the 15 damage).

So... the shield either ONLY takes the damage after it reduces it by its hardness, or it ALSO takes the damage after reducing it by its harness, or NEITHER.

Note that none of the above says anything about what happens to the shield if it's lying on the ground and you try to destroy it. (Which is almost certainly the scenario in which it takes all the remaining damage after reducing it by its hardness)... but does it also take that damage when you block with it? So both you AND the shield take the remaining damage? Seems strange.

[CraziFuzzy]

There are some obvious inconsistencies in the shield block mechanic and the way the various rules are written (Shield Block, Item Damage, Broken, etc). Until those are clarified in the first errata, I think it's hard to identify if the Shield Block mechanic as intended is bad.

Some of the problems:
Some are confused as to how much damage the shield takes during a shield block. It seems to indicate based on the most likely use of pronouns that the shield takes the damage that the user does not, which means it take UP TO it's own hardness. Nothing says that the hardness of the shield doesn't then reduce the damage the shield takes. This means that as precisely written, the shield never actually takes any damage.

If we assume that this is in error, and that the shield will not mitigate it's own share of the damage, then that means that the shield will always take only up to it's own hardness - which means if the attack was less than the shield's hardness, the shield is unharmed, and if the attack was greater than the shield' hardness, then the shield takes 1 dent (because it ends up taking what it blocks, which is exactly it's hardness).

If that is the case, then any Shield Block will cause either 0 dents (if the attack was less than hardness), or 1 dent (if the attack was greater or equal to hardness).

So, 1 dent, and the shield is dented.
2 dents and the shield is broken.

Broken items can't be used for their normal purpose, so you can no longer raise the shield and can no longer use Shield Block - so it will never get it's 3rd dent, and thus, never be destroyed. So shields are infinitely repairable - just takes 1 hour with a Craft check.

[CraziFuzzy]

FitzTheRuke wrote:

Note that none of the above says anything about what happens to the shield if it's lying on the ground and you try to destroy it. (Which is almost certainly the scenario in which it takes all the remaining damage after reducing it by its hardness)... but does it also take that damage when you block with it? So both you AND the shield take the remaining damage? Seems strange.

The other thing complicating things, is that there is no mechanic I can find for attacking objects. There is no Sunder action, and no Break action - this means Shield Block ends up being the ONLY example of Item Damage in the game - making things that much harder to parse out.

They really do need to fix the shield block wording to make things clear, but at the same time, they need a way for all this item hardness and special materials, and thus to come into play for game scenarios OTHER than shield block. There NEEDS to be a Sunder action (attempting to destroy a held object), and there needs to be a Break action (attempting to destroy an unattended object).

[epigonebw]

The book CLEARLY states that items reduce damage taken by their hardness. Second line under item damage section.

[David Silver - Ponyfinder]

epigonebw wrote:

The book CLEARLY states that items reduce damage taken by their hardness. Second line under item damage section.

It does. It also says if you take equal to or greater than hardness? Dent.

Shieldblock can cause a dent.
Shieldblock cannot cause 2 dents.

[Kodyboy]

This is why we are playtestig to fix this stuff.
Many issues would be easily fixed with an example or two:)

[Reaper Steve]

I’m glad to see I’m not the only one having issue with the contradictons in the hardness rules, the example, and the Shield Block rules.

I was excited for Shield Block, but this really needs to be cleaned up. Several points:
1) It was almost impossible to find the hardness values of normal shields. They should be in an obvious entry (like the Traits column on p. 176), not a parenthetical note on p.177.
2) The wording under Item Damage on p.175 is not clear. Does the item reduce damage by its hardness before comparing the damage to its hardness to determine dents? The first sentence explicitly states so, but that doesn’t seem to be the case in the following example or in the Shield Block rules. The example on p. 175 doesn’t clarify. Is it 10-3(hardness)=7, which is greater than twice hardness for 2 dents? Or is it 10, which is greater than twice hardness for 2 dents? Better examples would be 5 and 6 damage. Would 5 damage cause no dents (5-3=2, which is less than 3)?
3) The shield block rules don’t match either interpretation of the hardness rules. These rules do not appear to reduce damage by hardness. They also don’t allow for more than one dent, but the example on p.175 shows a shield taking 2 dents.

This is a great concept, please clarify!

[Yossarian]

Reaper Steve wrote:

:

1) It was almost impossible to find the hardness values of normal shields. They should be in an obvious entry (like the Traits column on p. 176), not a parenthetical note on p.177.

This is a great concept, please clarify!

Agreed. I would love the table for shields to cover the various types, but also materials and quality levels (which appear to interact), and then their hardness values, and other stats (price, bulk etc).

Rather like the adamantine table on p354, mixed in with the Item Quality table on p190 but for all the shields.

[Dragonchess Player]

Note that a shield user would get a lot of use out of the Quick Repair feat (10 minutes to repair a dent instead of 1 hour; 5 minutes with expert proficiency, 1 minute with master, 3 rounds with legendary).

[GreatCowGuru]

I really don't see where people are are finding issues with the shield block and item damage rules so lets try to break it all down together.

Item Damage wrote:

An item can be destroyed if it takes damage enough times. An item reduces any damage dealt to it by its Hardness. The Hardness of various materials is explained in the Materials section on page 354. If an item takes damage equal to or exceeding the item’s Hardness, the item takes a Dent. If the item takes damage equal to or greater than twice its Hardness in one hit, it takes 2 Dents.

Shield Block wrote:

You snap your shield into place to deflect a blow. Your shield prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to its Hardness—the shield takes this damage instead, possibly becoming dented or broken. See page 175 for rules on dented and broken items.

Alright so when you shield block your shield reduces the damage you take by its hardness the shield also takes this full damage value as well.

Step 1 Reduce damage to the character by the shields hardness value.
Step 2 The shield does the same for itself.
Step 3 The shield takes a number of dents equal to how many times the remaining damage can equal its hardness.

Example A hardness 5 shield is used to shield block a hit for 11 damage. The character blocking would take 6 damage. The shield wouls reduce the 11 damage against itself by 5 points leaving it taking 6 damage as well. Since that value of 6 hits the items hardness of 5 one time leaving a remainder of 1 damage the shield takes a single dent.

Yes, I do see the point David was making about shield block not functioning by raw as the wording really needs to read more like.

"Your shield prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to its hardness-the shield then takes the full damage of the attack, possibly becoming dented or broken."

[Mechalibur]

So the key problem seems to be in Shield Block "the shield takes this damage instead." The antecedent for "this damage" could be either the full damage of the attack or the prevented damage of the attack. The modifier "instead" makes it seem like the damage the shield takes is the damage you *don't* take, i.e. the hardness of the shield.

This really needs to be re-worded.

[Asgetrion]

Dekalinder wrote:

Blocking twice 5 damage means 10 extra HP per combat. Considering that even martial HP usialli hover around 20-22 at fist level, that means 50% extra temp HP per fight. During the span of 6 fight you will have almost tripled you effective HP. Doesn't sound weak to me.

The only thing I would personally change is the double dent rule, because it makes really painfull risking to block an attack when the shield has already a single dent.

It's weak at higher levels, and consider that you need to spend feats to become truly effective with using shields, i.e. beyond gaining that +2 to AC by burning an action. And what's the point of magic shields if they're outright destroyed during the first round of any high-level combat? Instead of the "Golf bag of magic weapons" shield specialists will now lug along a golf bag of magic shields?

(Yeah, they can be repaired, but how many GMs will allow you to bang your shield with a hammer for several hours in a row without any combats?)

[shroudb]

Asgetrion wrote:

Dekalinder wrote:

Blocking twice 5 damage means 10 extra HP per combat. Considering that even martial HP usialli hover around 20-22 at fist level, that means 50% extra temp HP per fight. During the span of 6 fight you will have almost tripled you effective HP. Doesn't sound weak to me.

The only thing I would personally change is the double dent rule, because it makes really painfull risking to block an attack when the shield has already a single dent.

It's weak at higher levels, and consider that you need to spend feats to become truly effective with using shields, i.e. beyond gaining that +2 to AC by burning an action. And what's the point of magic shields if they're outright destroyed during the first round of any high-level combat? Instead of the "Golf bag of magic weapons" shield specialists will now lug along a golf bag of magic shields?

(Yeah, they can be repaired, but how many GMs will allow you to bang your shield with a hammer for several hours in a row without any combats?)

it's just a skill feat to repair them in minutes/rounds (depending on craft skill level)

plus it's a low DC, so it's much easier to crit repair fixing both dents together.

for emergencies, ther's a 170gp trinket that instantly repairs the affixed item as well.

[Asgetrion]

shroudb wrote:

Asgetrion wrote:

Dekalinder wrote:

Blocking twice 5 damage means 10 extra HP per combat. Considering that even martial HP usialli hover around 20-22 at fist level, that means 50% extra temp HP per fight. During the span of 6 fight you will have almost tripled you effective HP. Doesn't sound weak to me.

The only thing I would personally change is the double dent rule, because it makes really painfull risking to block an attack when the shield has already a single dent.

It's weak at higher levels, and consider that you need to spend feats to become truly effective with using shields, i.e. beyond gaining that +2 to AC by burning an action. And what's the point of magic shields if they're outright destroyed during the first round of any high-level combat? Instead of the "Golf bag of magic weapons" shield specialists will now lug along a golf bag of magic shields?

(Yeah, they can be repaired, but how many GMs will allow you to bang your shield with a hammer for several hours in a row without any combats?)

it's just a skill feat to repair them in minutes/rounds (depending on craft skill level)

plus it's a low DC, so it's much easier to crit repair fixing both dents together.

for emergencies, ther's a 170gp trinket that instantly repairs the affixed item as well.

And if it's completely destroyed, can it still be fixed? Even if it's just minutes or rounds, it's still annoying to lose (even temporarily) your best "tool" in the first rounds of every fight -- especially if you have invested feats in it!

[Catharsis]

I agree that there is contradiction in the wording of the shield rules and in the example shown. For my own playtest games, I'm going to rule it according to the example, i.e., the shield takes the full attack's damage but does apply hardness. The players won't like it, I'm sure...

Also: «Some magical or especially sturdy items can take more than 1 Dent before becoming broken, as noted in their descriptions.» — I would certainly hope that a shield would count as an especially sturdy item, that's its whole purpose...

[shroudb]

Asgetrion wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Asgetrion wrote:

Dekalinder wrote:

Blocking twice 5 damage means 10 extra HP per combat. Considering that even martial HP usialli hover around 20-22 at fist level, that means 50% extra temp HP per fight. During the span of 6 fight you will have almost tripled you effective HP. Doesn't sound weak to me.

The only thing I would personally change is the double dent rule, because it makes really painfull risking to block an attack when the shield has already a single dent.

It's weak at higher levels, and consider that you need to spend feats to become truly effective with using shields, i.e. beyond gaining that +2 to AC by burning an action. And what's the point of magic shields if they're outright destroyed during the first round of any high-level combat? Instead of the "Golf bag of magic weapons" shield specialists will now lug along a golf bag of magic shields?

(Yeah, they can be repaired, but how many GMs will allow you to bang your shield with a hammer for several hours in a row without any combats?)

it's just a skill feat to repair them in minutes/rounds (depending on craft skill level)

plus it's a low DC, so it's much easier to crit repair fixing both dents together.

for emergencies, ther's a 170gp trinket that instantly repairs the affixed item as well.

And if it's completely destroyed, can it still be fixed? Even if it's just minutes or rounds, it's still annoying to lose (even temporarily) your best "tool" in the first rounds of every fight -- especially if you have invested feats in it!

from what i can tell, an item can't be outright destroyed.

it needs to take an extra "dent" while broken to be destroyed.

most items take 2-3 dents to become broken.

earlier levels, a light steel shield has a hardness of 5.

that means that it takes 10 damage to get the 1st dent, and 15 to take 2 to become broken (still repairable)

that seems fine for a level 1 item.

now, higher levels, if you are invested in keep blocking with your shield, you may look at items like the "sturdy shield" which starts from as low as level 2 and reaches level 18 (and ofc it's enchantable as normal)

all sturdy shields take 3 dents to become broken instead of 2

a sample level 12 unenchanted one has 18 hardness.

so, it blocks hits up to 35 damage without dents, 36-53 for a single dent, 54+ for 2 dents (keep in mind that it has 3 dents)

at level 12, an adult green dragon (level 12) has attacks like:
Melee jaws +23 (reach 15 feet), Damage 3d10+12 piercing plus
2d6 poison
Melee claw +23 (agile, reach 10 feet), Damage 3d8+12 slashing
Melee tail +23 (reach 20 feet), Damage 3d8+12 bludgeoning
Melee horn +22 (reach 15 feet), Damage 3d8+6 piercing

which means it needs to CRIT in order to even start denting the shield (on average, or be extremely lucky with it's dice rolls)

same for valkyrie (another level 12)
Melee valkyrie’s spear +23 (magical, reach 10 feet), Damage
4d8+12 piercing
Ranged valkyrie’s spear +21 (magical, thrown 20 feet),
Damage 4d8+6 piercing

and etc

[Traiel]

shroudb wrote:

from what i can tell, an item can't be outright destroyed.

it needs to take an extra "dent" while broken to be destroyed.

most items take 2-3 dents to become broken.

earlier levels, a light steel shield has a hardness of 5.

that means that it takes 10 damage to get the 1st dent, and 15 to take 2 to become broken (still repairable)

that seems fine for a level 1 item.

now, higher levels, if you are...

You are not correct in your numbers, but are correct that the item cannot be destroyed unless it is already broken and takes another dent, or something that would cause it to be broken.

Where you have read the rules wrong is around this:

any damage equal to or higher than it's hardness dents the shield
i.e shield has hardness 5, 6 damage-10 damage = 1 dent, 11 damage or greater = 2 dent (maybe broken)

The example they use in that section:

Quote:

For instance,
a wooden shield (Hardness 3) that takes 10 damage would
take 2 Dents. A typical item can take only 1 Dent without
becoming broken.

Because twice the Hardness 3 (6) - hardness of shield < 10 , based on the second quote below, the shield has taken 2 dents.

Under Item Damage:

Quote:

If an item takes damage
equal to or exceeding the item’s Hardness, the item takes
a dent

The shield absorbs the first 3 damage, player takes 7 damage

The total damage taken by the shield is 7 (equal to or greater than hardness), so it takes a dent.

Same Section:

Quote:

If the item takes damage equal to or greater than
twice its Hardness in one hit, it takes 2 Dents

7 damage is greater than 2xhardness 3, therefore it takes 2 dents.

[epigonebw]

Yes, Traiel is correct. A shield that takes equal to or greater DAMAGE than its hardness gets a dent. Since the shield's hardness reduces the damage, a shield with a hardness of 5 would have to block an attack of 10 to get a dent.

Jimmy the fighter blocks an attack of 11 damage.
The shield's hardness is 5.
Jimmy takes 6 damage.
The shield takes 6 damage and receives a dent.

Jimmy the fighter blocks an attack of 9 damage.
The shield's hardness is 5.
Jimmy takes 4 damage.
The shield does NOT receive a dent.

[shroudb]

Traiel wrote:

shroudb wrote:

from what i can tell, an item can't be outright destroyed.

it needs to take an extra "dent" while broken to be destroyed.

most items take 2-3 dents to become broken.

earlier levels, a light steel shield has a hardness of 5.

that means that it takes 10 damage to get the 1st dent, and 15 to take 2 to become broken (still repairable)

that seems fine for a level 1 item.

now, higher levels, if you are...

You are not correct in your numbers, but are correct that the item cannot be destroyed unless it is already broken and takes another dent, or something that would cause it to be broken.

Where you have read the rules wrong is around this:

any damage equal to or higher than it's hardness dents the shield
i.e shield has hardness 5, 5 damage-9 damage = 1 dent, 10 damage or greater = 2 dent (maybe broken)

The example they use in that section:

Quote:

For instance,
a wooden shield (Hardness 3) that takes 10 damage would
take 2 Dents. A typical item can take only 1 Dent without
becoming broken.

Because Hardness 3 (absorbed damage) + (twice the item's hardness) < 10 , based on the second quote below, the shield has taken 2 dents.

Under Item Damage:

Quote:

If an item takes damage
equal to or exceeding the item’s Hardness, the item takes
a dent

The shield absorbs the first 3 damage, player takes 7 damage

The total damage taken by the shield is 10 (equal to or greater than hardness), so it takes a dent.

Same Section:

Quote:

If the item takes damage equal to or greater than
twice its Hardness in one hit, it takes 2 Dents

10 damage is greater than 2xhardness 3, therefore it takes 2 dents.

what are you talking about? i already accounted for all this in my math:

for the light steel shield (hardness 5):

it blocks 10 damage
we subtract it's hardness 5 from all damage it receives.
so it takes 5 damage, which is equal to it's hardness so 1 dent.
15 damage, we subtract 5 so 10 damage, which is double the 5 base hardness so 2 dents

for the level 12 example:

it has 18 hardness

it takes 35 damage. 35-18=17, less than it's hardness so no dents
it takes 36-53 damage -18 hardness, so 18-35, 35<2*18 so 1 dent
it takes 54+ damage =2 dents
and since it's a sturdy shield it can still take 1 more dent before it's broken.

so... nope.

ahhh i see where YOU are wrong:

you forgot the very 1st sentence:
ALWAYS SUBSTRACT HARDNESS FROM THE DAMAGE FIRST, THEN CHECK IF IT'S MORE THAN HARDNESS..

quick and easy maths are:
if it's double or more the hardness=1 dent
if it's triple or more = 2 dents

[Traiel]

Yes you are correct! My apologies :P It was such a well constructed post as well

[shroudb]

Traiel wrote:

Yes you are correct! My apologies :P

yeah, no probs :D

it also took me by surpise how sturdy high levels shields are as well :D

[NielsenE]

According to a developer in this thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vadp?Shield-Block-Reaction-damage#5

When using shield block, the shield only "takes" the damage it blocks (ie 0-Hardness). If the shield blocks its full hardness it receives a dent. A shield can never receive multiple dents from the Shield Block reaction. The excess damage does not hit the shield.

[Traiel]

their example in the playtest specifically gives an example where the wooden shield receives 2 dents.

also.. the developer edited his response:

Quote:

I have actually talked to Logan, and I need to correct myself- since the shield took (more than) double its hardness in damage, it does in fact have two dents. I was working from out of date knowledge based on some earlier in-house playtesting and I apologize for increasing the confusion on this subject.

[shroudb]

NielsenE wrote:

According to a developer in this thread:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vadp?Shield-Block-Reaction-damage#5

When using shield block, the shield only "takes" the damage it blocks (ie 0-Hardness). If the shield blocks its full hardness it receives a dent. A shield can never receive multiple dents from the Shield Block reaction. The excess damage does not hit the shield.

nah, he corrected himself.

that wouldn't make any sense (as RAW) (neither the 1dent when taking just as much as it's hardness, nor the max 1 dent made sense, he was just tired, Gencon and such :P)

[NielsenE]

Updated my question/summary in the thread to him.