I have to say, Colette plays about as unlike me as you can get while playing the same thing. I love Fire Emblem a lot, but it's just not what I'm looking for in Pathfinder. Still, I'm glad they're having fun.
The whole anime aesthetic is also not my thing, but Dahak as a wee anime manakete is just so funny an image I'm tempted to use it myself. Almost burst out laughing at work!
I've long wanted to play as some sort of talking sparrow (awakened? ex familiar?) that's actually a summoner. Their eidolon would either be humanoid for confusing people or really big, haven't decided.
We're currently about to finish the campaign were I'm basically Orochimaru but not actually outright evil so that's one off the list. Ate a magical library, stole a couple bodies, all good.
My solution to that was taking the maps, and then just copy pasting screenshots of the relevant creatures, traps and mechanics near each room. So I have one giant jpg where I just zoom in the relevant parts. So far it's worked like a dream. I do have Photoshop, but I think it should work in gimp or paint too.
Also made a google docs where I pretranslated and summarized most of the dialogue I'd need for later, because I suck at translating on the fly since my brain keeps offering words in german instead of spanish, which the rest of the table doesn't speak.
We too are only in Pale Mountain, with them just about to enter the tomb. Lots of fun so far. Reading this thread has been inspiring. :)
Oh, I see. Huh. Yeah, I doubt that one is meant to be under the Rarity rules. It'll probably be patched like the Nethys one, I assume.
The sorcerer bloodline gives you Teleport, because the sorcerer bloodline gives you either the occult or the arcana spell list. It is, if you notice, still marked as uncommon. P. 127: "You choose these from the common spells on the spell list corresponding to your bloodline in this book, or from other spells on that spell list to which you gain access." Meaning you still have to speak to your GM (be it by buying it with your money ingame or finding it as loot) to get it. So...yes? Wizards and Bards also get it. What of it?
So... you no longer can easily kill things that were supposed to be difficult, and now can spend brain power and resources on other more interesting things besides maxing AC, which you were gonna do anyway. Sounds like fixes to me, honestly.
I'm pretty sure you can still harrass the unarmored 'squishies' with something. Not all wizards will have maxed dex and athletics, and if they have built for that, they're not quite 'squishies' are they? In our game there was around 4 AC difference between 2 characters, which is a big number now, so...
But, beyond my possible issue blindness, I think Zman0 has the right of it. Why not both, indeed.
I haven't been playing PF1 for as long as some people here, but... is PF1 (unmodified!) actually capable of telling the story you guys speak of? Unless you stoped at like, level 4, I don't think so. In a couple levels the ole goblin guys were just irrelevant anyway. I'm not sure what has actually, directly changed that's causing all this outrage. As far as I've played and read, PF1 should already be immersion breaking for you. I mean this in a completely honest way, but I don't get it.
I didn't bother searching for the sorcerer part, but as of at least 1.4 Nethys doesn't give that spell anymore.
Dr. Zerom Brandercook wrote:
Having played games with +255 to a skill and % calculations, I was just thinking that I liked these small numbers in PF2...
It's a difference of how people see the higher levels I guess. Can I swallow that a 8 str 20 lvl wizard can trounce a lvl 1 fighter with his bare hands? Depends on how they explain it. Do you get progressively more magical as you level? The experience of killing All the Creatures in the Land, and watching your lvl 20 fighter buddy fight, made you just better than this mere mortal dude who just walked out of his town? Considering the level of crazy that the high levels imply in Golarion... well, yes. It also works better for some skills than others. Should the barbarian have learned something of Not Pissing People You Like Off in all these levels? Yeah, probably. Though I admit that it may not work for everyone. I find it fun actually. *shrug*
Now that I think of it... maybe they could add a note about how you can tank your own skill values if you want to for RP. A disadvantage if you will. Or optionally just turn off automatic +lvl to untrained skills. That seems fine.
The table is kinda confusing, yes. But that's more a problem of the table than of +1/lvl directly, I think. Needs more examples to get an idea of what 'standard human difficulty' is.
Edit: I keep forgetting the profanity filter.
Having actually played now (RL finally cooperated), my lvl 9 competent but not super optimized char has a difference of 10 between her best (+15 without armor) and her worst skill (+5). That's a whole crit range. Should she regularly use her worst skill? Probably not, but she also probably won't instantly explode if she tries, which I like. I'm fine with that amount of variance, tbh.
So, my opinion on the whole +1 lvl... it doesn't make me scream I LOVE IT at the top of my lungs, but I consider it a perfectly valid way to build the game, and so far it has worked. So yeah.
Edit: To clarify, if someone comes up with a better Skill system I'm down with trying it out. But if the current system is the system that comes out with PF2 I' won't cry either.
Lucas Yew wrote:
This rule, I like it. Classes that naturally get proficiency can be cool without magic (and maybe get more flavorful items), and the less martially inclined (eg: the ones that can't use armor) can still keep up if they spend the money/feats.
That still leaves the +5 bonus in the leagues of either magic weapons or a Legendary feat. Lvl 17 maybe?
But is it worse than what we have now? Now they roll perception, and when after rolling poorly you tell them they saw nothing, they knoww you're b%%$@+@!ting. Then they get stabbed by "Surprise Assassin."
Wanting the system to be both participative AND a true surprise is... almost unfair. Either you take it upon yourself to roll for them and note it down, or they participate in the game and do as if their PCs saw nothing (while squinting suspiciously at your notes, probably), and that's true for both PF systems.
And really, that they 'felt something' doesn't necessarily mean a fight is comming. There's more than one reason for something to hide and try to sneak past the PCs, and encounter mode doesn't need to be a fight. Maybe a chase? A competition with friendly rivals of who gets to the mcguffin first? Mysterious mechanisms? Depends on the plot, I suppose.
I believe it's probable that the PF2 system pretends for that initial perception vs stealth TO ALSO be the initiative rol (unless it's a very long, complex sneak that requires more rolls), but I'm not 100% certain. In either case, rolling initiative means the ooze must have done some aggresive movement, and that it lost means it just wasn't fast enough. "As you enter the room, you see nothing, but as you turn your head to say something you suddenly see something rushing towards you! What do you do?" If the ooze was just laying there unthreatingly, inmobile and uninterested the initiative roll was unnecesary. Or they're just murderhobos, which is also possible. It happens.
There is some level of contrivance in a game played 90% in our minds like some sort of codified mass delusion.
EDIT: Look at that, ninjas. Apparently I lost initiative.
I don't have the book with me right now, but, as I see it:
PC is sneaking: They roll stealth vs passive perception, and it they fail, the enemy 'feels something' and gets a chance to Seek and/or act (basically, the enemy WON initiative). If you critfailed sneak, I guess maybe they see the PC right away, would have to check that. If the PC succeeds, they go first (winning initiative), becoming Sensed as they attack, unless they have a feat against that or something.
PC is being sneak upon: The enemy rolls vs the PC's passive perception EXCEPT if the tactic is 'paying attention' (searching?), in which case maybe the GM ought to roll for the PC's active perception if thy want to keep the suspense. If the enemy fails, the PC 'feels something' but don't know where or what (basically, the enemy LOST initiative), they have to Seek. If the enemy critfails, the PCs see the enemy. If the enemy succeeds, they go first, becoming Sensed as they attack.
Do creatures that were already hiding somewhere get passive or active stealth vs active or passive perception, for example in case of the ooze in Part 1? Hmm. I would have to read sneaking again.
Anyway, in case of multiple people, the ambushed all roll either active perception or passive, depending on what they were doing, while the ambushers roll either passive or active stealth. All this is either rolled secretly for suspense, or open if your players can avoid metagaming. All these results tell you who saw/felt what first.
Ej: if a creature rolls really good stealth and wins agains everyone EXCEPT one (say, a rogue), then that rogue 'feels something' and goes first, maybe finding the ambusher/alerting the others, then goes the ambusher, then everyone else (who may or may not be flatfooted anymore after being warned, would need to check).
If it works like this, it IS very organic, and I actually like it. It's gonna need some adjusting time to remember all the details though, not gonna lie.
A level 0 Goblin with +0 Strength has the same To-Hit with it's weapons as a level 1 Str 18 Character that's an Expert in his chosen weapon. Heck, they have a higher To-hit bonus with their Dogslicers (which aren't Finesse) than a 1st level Goblin Fighter could ever get (they're capped at +5 due to 16 Str).
That's a good point, I suppose. Though what it really comes down to is that 'enemies' and 'characters' are built with completely different methods and intentions. Is this against the inner logic of the world? Yes, unless you put in some 'chosen one' thing. Is it necessary for entretaining play and challenge? Maybe. Haven't had time to GM it myself yet, so I can only conjeture and read the forum.
I will say though that the CONCEPT of both using different rules doesn't not bother me, as long as it helps play. Maybe a -1 to hit for all enemies in the playtest would make a noticeable difference? Something to test I guess.
And I appreciate it! I don't dislike the feel of being, in the end, human after all when divested of all the magic extras. I just like the other option a bit more, at least in magic heavy fantasy.
It's indeed down to preference. I just like the feeling of inherent competence, even if you never get to exercise it ingame. I get to imagine my PC in shorts and suglasses having a good time in a dangerous enviroment.
I feel obligated to mention that, they are indeed dangerous, deadly monsters that eat people or each other. It doesn't exactly break my SOB that they are optimized fitghers.
When I GM, I was thinking of just straight up saying: "You find a bottle, and if you check it closely with your senses you can tell it's magical. It says: "Uncle Ben's Basic Cure All!" You know Ben is an apothecary in the city center. The bottle looks pretty disgusting though, caked in sewer detritus in a goblin cave. Are you sure it is what it says it is?"
That way they can take the potion if they dare, and add some verisimilitude to the world. Also gives me a place with a bit of story for them to go later, if they want to buy stuff. Also it can lead to fun moments.
I'll be honest, I like that there's some way to show a character is powerful and skilled beyond just how much magic armor they have. They're just straight better at it (you could argue this should apply to weapon dice too, but that's another thread). The lvl 14 character I made had, naked, a minimum skill bonus +12 and maximum +21. I find that to be perfectly acceptable. He sneaks amazing, and while arcana is not his field, he's seen enough s&+* to recognize magic when he sees it. A ghoul tries to bit them and they just dodge without thinking about it, because ghouls are chumps. Seems fine to me.
I've made 2 higher level chars so far. While making a 1st lvl one takes me about 15-20 mins, they took me about double that because I hadn't read all the classes yet. It was pretty fun, I hope I get to play all of them!
Were I stalled a bit was equipment. That took like an hour in itself. The treasure section in the pdf not having its items indexed was a pain in the ass; that and all the little rules about quality, magic, and items being scattered everywhere. Not to mention spells.
Conclusion: making higher level characters is fun, fast and easy, but the organization in the pdf makes dressing them and choosing spells tedious. That can be fixed though.
Vic Ferrari wrote:
It can lead to some interesting scenarios, like your 15th-level character, having a drink at the bar, and a bunch of ghouls burst in and attack everyone, and they just sit there, drinking, while the occasional ghoul hits them, to their annoyance.
That got a irl laugh. Love that image, thanks.
I would asume the fact that they went first in initiative means they noticed something with their perception vs the (hypotetical) ninja. Basically they got 'a bad feeling', I guess. Doesn't mean they know exactly where you are or anything, they still have to find you.
If your Stealth's high enough, and you have patience, you could even recreate the classic "it was probably nothing" Skyrim experience, I suppose.
Yeah, when you said you guys usually did political intrigue, I thought of Part 6. It also has some combat, but mostly interactions and some puzzles. I thought it sounded really interesting.
Though, I have to ask... AC 12? Where they all naked? I usually don't play particularly optimized, but I don't think I've ever dared go that low.
Edit: I'm glad they took it well though. Hopefully the next one is more entretaining.
Shady Stranger wrote:
Well it should be. "Sure, I like praying to my god for the spells they think I'll need, but it never hurts to try to work it out yourself, you know?"
I want the Barbarian dedication to add to my Cleric, just because the image is great with her tranquil elf appearance. I suppose I can go with fighter for the playtest.
I also now want to add the rogue dedication to everything, because I love stealthier characters in general.
Eventually I'll try to remake my magus, and my two Anima characters: I think a Bard/Rogue or Fighter, maybe, and the other a Monk.
Colette Brunel wrote:
The way I read that section, the whole thing is mostly a guide for GMs about how to handle that part, not a straighjacket. Sure, experienced GMs may not need it (it IS basically the same thing as before, but more codified), but if you've never mastered before it may help.
"Ask your players what they want to be doing. Being sneaky? They have to go a bit slower and can roll Stealth for Initiative. They want to go extra fast? They'll get tired sooner. They are on alert? They get to start weapon in hand and shield up. Looking for magic? Walk slowly and go full radar with Detect Magic. They are trying to walk with a high level spell constanly going and f#!*ing up your perfectly good encounters? Tell them they are getting tired. Remember, in the end is up to you, use your judgement!"*
Is this what they intended? If it was, was it well expressed? I don't know, but this is how I read it, and maybe the reason it's not working for you is that it's being applied a touch too rigidly.
*Please note I don't have the book with me right now.
Edit: I'll agree that the examples are kinda bad. My guess is that two people wrote that and didn't proofread as well as they ought to.
John Lynch 106 wrote:
I actually think that a lot of the difficulties people are having with accepting some of the changes and conceits of PF2 is exactly that. I've been trying to consider it as a whole new, unknown game and I think it's helped me a lot to see it for it's own merits. Granted, it does have its problems that have to be fixed, but they're certainly less distressing that way.
I would perhaps allow a General Feat at first level instead of more ancestry ones, to add to the 'personal' part of ancestry->background->personal.
David knott 242 wrote:
"The 1 veteran player and 1 that had played 5e before both made half-orcs."
Honestly, if you don't have the baggage of PF1 experience, there's no reason to feel like you're not getting enough. I've played games where the only difference was basically appearance, and generally you just roll with it.
What I would like is higher level ancestry options. 2-3 really cool high level things that you can choose at lvls 10+. They don't even need to be mechanically powerful, just novel.
The the new game, a 2nd level spell provides food. Purchase pack animal is 20 sp and an Unskilled Hireling is 1sp/day.
*looks at the trail of dead innocent horses that were just in the wrong place at the wrong time* Yeah... I don't think that's gonna work, at least with my group. Around lvl 4 we just gave up on that, we just felt too bad.
Being able to do that in it's small package is darn magical. JUST being a magic retrieval system is super mundane porter work.
But... what you just described is the same thing... ANYWAY, this is obviously very important to you, and I don't care enough, so you do you.
EDIT: Serious question, how did you get a bathtub into a sack, I thought you couldn't do that with big things?
I reread the item description and the Activation descriptions and, as far as I can tell, you only require the RP to open and then close the bag. It doesn't say you have to pay for each item, only for the ACT of opening.
"If it’s turned inside out, the items inside spill out unharmed, but the bag must be put right before it can be used again."
Meaning many items can pass through the opening, but OPENING it is what costs RP. So, throw hoard in, close, then turn inside out inside of your bank/hideout of choice.
Edit: now, the question is... can you keep it open forever? Rules don't say.
@WatersLethe too. I guess part of the disconnect between our views here is that I never considered it anything else BUT a super expensive porter where you put the stuff you don't need everyday. And even if I didn't, I've played too many games with magical inventories for it to feel super magical. In a game with constructs, mind controlling music, curses, aliens, and space-time portals, what is for all purposes a bag a bit bigger on the inside kind of feels more 'duh, obviously it exists' than actually amazing.
Graystone, do consider you actually have to protect and feed these porters though! At least the bag doesn't require maintenace. Also it seems to not explode anymore. :p
Just because you don't NEED one for everyday use doesn't mean you can't WANT it. It IS still useful (how can you rob dragons without one?) but it's no longer an unavoidable expense to actually do stuff.
Dunno about them, but as a person who rolls regularly low, and knowing a friend who rolls either 1s or 20s but at the wrong time, lemme tell you I'm gonna love that feat for my characters.
Well, I said what I said because that's what you said you used it for (wands, potions, bombs), when such small things you use all the time in combat should probably be in your pockets and not on your luggage. I'll give you the backup weapon, though if you have 10-12 str then you'll probably have a L bulk secondary weapon, I think.
The other things you mentioned now are loot and downtime and daily preparation stuff, which is what the bag of holding is actually for, I would say (though personally I'd never put my spellbook in a hole to another dimension, but that's me and my paranoid PC).
Under the rules, 10 L bulk items is 1 Bulk. If you have 10 str, you can carry 5 bulk without penalties. Even if you, for some reason, have medium armor and a sword and a light shield with 10 str, you still ought to be able to carry 10 wands/potions in a satchel. Why would you need to keep small stuff like that in a Bag of Holding?
How I read it, is that, assuming a Hardness of, say, 10, ANY damage BELOW that would actually be... resisted by the shield, and not dent it. It's when it's a lot of damage at once that shields die. I suppose it would be like having really conditional DR.
I'm not sure what's actually intented here, if we are supposed to track the shield's "HP" or not, but it's also true that you can spend time repairing it every morning while the magic dudes do their prepaprations, so I wouldn't mind too much if that were the case.
We were playing Shattered Star (Little Sinner Star, as we called it), but had to sustend due to IRL. Eventually those that are left want to continue, but we'll have to wait to finish the other things we started in the meantime. There I played a overly curious magus with a morningstar. For some reason, in this game everyone who died was reincarnated as a halfling. This happened multiple times.
Right now my main game is Anima, playing as a warlock (surprise! it's basically a magus), where the party is stubbornly trying to not murder anybody and stop being hobos. This has been very confusing for our GM, because the usual plot bait doesn't work, and we accidentally forced one of the bad guy's plots to start early because we actually collaborated with the authorities, which wasn't expected. To correct this he's now dangling the opportunity to steal a Zeppelin in front of us. I'm afraid it's working.
We're also playing Dead Suns (as a mechanic), and testing a Mutants and Masterminds adventure for a kid's class our DM will teach in a month.
At this point I love Pathfinder because I get to use all my dice instead of only my d%. The absurd amount of resources is also a big reason.
I've been playing Anima Beyond Fantasy for over two years now, and I still haven't even looked at convocation and ki techniques because that s+#!'s too much. Determining damage still confuses me sometimes, not to mention needing a goodamn calculator.
Android Spacefarer Operative 1/Akashic Mystic X
Spacefarer is mostly because I've traveled a lot and wish I was travelling more. The Operative is because I have to put my climbing skills, the strength, and the occasional accidental invisibility somewhere. Akashic Mystic is the closest I found to noncharismatic artist who likes to know things. Seems accurate enough.