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The sorcerer has a spell repertoire from which she can choose freely when casting as long as spell slots are available.
Clerics and wizards can only cast the spells, they have specifically prepared. How if they could prepare a subset of the spells from the spellbook/domain from which they choose freely not unlike the spell repertoire of the sorcerer? That would make those caster classes more appealing and way more flexible.
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Count me in for Arcanist-style casting for prepared casters.
Needing to choose which spells for the day is an appropriate level of specificity for me.
Needing to choose precisely how many of each spell to prepare per day? That just seems frustrating more than anything.
Balance-wise, Paizo has balanced Arcanists in the past; I don't see why they can't do it again. Related but separate is the issue that Sorcerer has just about the worst casting of all the current spellcasters in the game, so with this change, it could use a buff.
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I prefer the classic wizard style. Nothing against the Arcanist or his style, but I love that wizards can fine tune exactly what spells they want ahead of time.
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Arcanist style for prepared casters all the way, with spontaneous casters getting more and better powers, unrestricted heightening and more spell slots per day.
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Arcanist style for prepared casters all the way, with spontaneous casters getting more and better powers, unrestricted heightening and more spell slots per day.
Agree with you on unrestricted heightening, although I think "more and better powers and more spells per day" should probably be handed out to most casting classes. Clerics are the only class that seems to be doing right with their current allowance, and that's because they're getting 4-6 extra spells per day at their highest spell level plus they have a way better selection of spell point powers.
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Also a big fan of Arcanist style casting... although I first saw it (and really dug it) back in the Arcana Unearthed/Evolved days.
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Yeah, I’m personally a fan of the Arcanist-style casting. (As a joke, when D&D5 first released, I referred to it as the “Groovian” casting system, as an homage to “Vancian” and because the D&D5 rulebook referred to thinking of the spell slots as a “system of grooves” to slot the spells prepared in.)
I have yet to experiment with a Sorcerer, so I have yet to see how restrictive it actually feels in practice.
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I strongly dislike Vancian casting myself but I like mechanical diversity from class to class. So, if it were up to me...
o-- I'd leave Wizards as is. The last hold out of pure Vancian magic.
o-- Revise Clerics to function like Arcanists but with a prayer element to change selected spells without a rest. (Only if the deity likes what they're up to.)
o-- Revise Druids to function like Arcanists but the spell selection would be based on the current terrain. (Good thing it's not up to me, right?)
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I would just like to see a system that is balanced and works with mana points.
They put in Spell point for almost all casters, why not expand it on all spells using that spell resource.
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I would just like to see a system that is balanced and works with mana points.
They put in Spell point for almost all casters, why not expand it on all spells using that spell resource.
Mana might actually be a good route for the sorcerer to go to distinguish them. Regular casters prepare and cast like an Arcanist with slots, sorcerers cast like a psion~
Wizards (possibly other prepared casters, not entirely sure) can spend a short period(minutes) to exchange a prepared spell for another. They are actually very flexible already.
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Wizards (possibly other prepared casters, not entirely sure) can spend a short period(minutes) to exchange a prepared spell for another. They are actually very flexible already.
Only the wizard, and only with a specific class feat. It's a really, really good feat, because it allows you the benefits of essentially leaving open spell slots, without actually having to leave the spell slots open, and it only takes 10 minutes to accomplish per spell swapped.
Nobody else but wizards who take that feat can do anything like this.
In PF1, any prepared spellcaster could choose to leave some slots open at the beginning of the day to fill them later. It takes a while, so it's not useful for combat, but it's great for utility, or for reacting to gathered intelligence.
Why they removed this capability baffles me. It makes prepared casting strictly worse than spontaneous casting by removing any of the flexibility that's supposed to go along with having a huge number or spell choices available. The spontaneous caster only knows a couple, but can choose among them on the fly. The prepared caster has potentially infinite options, but can only have so many of them in play at once. They can be ready for anything given adequate preparation, though.
I don't even care if filling an open spell slot took a half hour or an hour to prepare just one spell at a time. It should be an option, and the wizard feat will still be better, so it's not like this invalidates it.
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Honestly, I'd like to see spontaneous heightening at will for all casters, with spells known or prepared being based on total spell slots (or maybe level). It's honestly so much less bookkeeping for a mid to high level character. I would also be fine if every class got spontaneous heightening... EXCEPT for the Wizard. Maybe something like this:
Most spellcasters know a number of spells equal to twice their level (plus cantrips). Clerics and Druids can no longer access the entire list every day, instead they (and Bards and Sorcerers) can swap a number of spells in their repertoire equal to their spellcasting ability modifier each time they level up. They can also swap out a spell by spending downtime, probably in communion with their source or training with someone versed in that kind of magic. All four of them use spontaneous heightening at will, so they can cast any spell at any slot it could be cast at whenever they want.
Wizards learn two spells every time they level up (plus cantrips) and they can add spells to their spellbook to improve their repertoire, like normal. Higher level Wizards are assumed to know about six spells per spell level above their highest. However, in order to properly capture, memorize, and then expend the arcane power, Wizards must prepare spells into specific spell slots. This gives them the potential to have far more options each day (with up to three different spells per spell level ready and from a larger list of spells known) at the cost of greatly reduced flexibility on the spot. Wizards are strategic, while other casters are tactical.
If people don't like how Clerics and Druids can't access the whole list every day, you could give them an ability kind of like the wizard's Drain Arcane Focus, only instead of letting them cast a spell already prepared, they call upon their power source directly to cast a spell from the list even if they don't know it. It could be cool for a Cleric under pressure to call out to Pelor and cause the symbol to fire light straight into an enemy's eyes (Blindness), or for a Druid about to be pelted by a deadly shower of stones to draw from nature itself and project a Wall of Wind.
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Non-Vancian for everybody.
Free heightening for spontaneous casters.
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I played 5e, from my experience, the change was a great quality of life for prepped casters, but it made spontaneous casting a strictly inferior spell casting system to it, even though spontaneous casters could heighten their spells freely with high level slots in that system. Druids and Clerics would end up with free heightening anyways, since they have access to their whole list (including heightened versions), and I doubt wizard will be left without free heightening. You would have to give spontaneous casters some other buffs alongside "free heightening", whether it be stronger or more emphasized blood-line powers, or 5e style spell stealing for the bard (if bard needs any help that is. I'll admit, I was always more partial to the pure-caster lore bard in 5e).
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The casting system in 5e tends to leave sorcerers at a massive disadvantage.
If non-spontaneous casters get this sort of thing, I'd want Sorcerers to get something massive to compensate: maybe free auto-heightening of spells, in addition to all of their spell slots able to cast their highest level spells.
Agreed with the premise. Agreed on free auto heightening. Having all their slots be highest level would vastly overpower them. I'd far rather accept that the disadvantage they have compared to neo-vancian flexibility, and let their massive thing they get to compensate come from their class. For Sorcerers, giving their bloodlines some more heft, perhaps with abilities that are constant, not spell points, and maybe another power or two in there, as well as making their bloodline abilities not take up feats at the levels they get them would be a good way to work with it.
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Vancian all the way.
Some things are simply necessary for this to feel likeD&DPathfinder.
FTFY. D&D already has its game, if you want D&D, go play that instead, because Pathfinder isn't D&D, and as such the expectations should be different.
Well, if Paizo tried too hard to be like D&D, they'd get sued and be out of business. So I say the less they are like D&D, the more likely they will have a clear identity in the gaming community. Being forever considered in D&D's shadow isn't exactly a great place for them right now.
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An option that I provide in the past to prior to the advent of what has been called the Arcanist style, was where the caster chose their spells for the day, and when they cast a spell, they lost expended a spell from memory, by default, the one they cast. However, with my optional rule, they had the option to 'lose' from memory any other spell they had memorized from that spell level. It isn't quite the flexibility of the Arcanist method, as you run out of spells, you run out of options like in the Vancian method. However, in this case, you can memorize occasionally useful utility spells, and if the opportunity presents itself to use it you can, but you can also sacrifice spells you know will likely no longer be needed, as the day progresses. It means you never have to memorize a spell twice, since you can always keep a spell if you know you may need it again, as long as you don't have something else you need more.
If the caster has to lose a spell from memory, but it doesn't have to be the cast spell, they are still losing flexibility as the day goes on, preserving some of the advantage for the sorcerer. It does infringe a bit on the territory of the sorcerer however.
I do feel concerned going purely Arcanist would greatly stifle the advantage that sorcerers are paying to get free access to their smaller list of spells. It would seem they would need to get something if prepared casters got Arcanist preparation.
I also agree, prepared casters should be able to fill slots later in the day if they want to leave one open. I don't have a big problem even swapping out spells if they spend some preparation time with their spellbook to do it.
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I'm not so sure that it would be overpowered. But regardless, I think that's the sort of calibre of ability that they would need to remain relevantAgreed with the premise. Agreed on free auto heightening. Having all their slots be highest level would vastly overpower them.The casting system in 5e tends to leave sorcerers at a massive disadvantage.
If non-spontaneous casters get this sort of thing, I'd want Sorcerers to get something massive to compensate: maybe free auto-heightening of spells, in addition to all of their spell slots able to cast their highest level spells.
Paizo was trying to get rid of autoscaling on spells in pf2e, so leaving it on the sorcerer will cause them to greatly exceed other spell-casters. I rather they boosted bloodlines to a greater degree.
In PF1, any prepared spellcaster could choose to leave some slots open at the beginning of the day to fill them later. It takes a while, so it's not useful for combat, but it's great for utility, or for reacting to gathered intelligence.
Actually, when I recently went looking for this option in PF1, it was only available to the wizard, not to divine casters. Not quite sure about the magus as it was a year ago.
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Actually, when I recently went looking for this option in PF1, it was only available to the wizard, not to divine casters. Not quite sure about the magus as it was a year ago.
In PF1, any prepared spellcaster could choose to leave some slots open at the beginning of the day to fill them later. It takes a while, so it's not useful for combat, but it's great for utility, or for reacting to gathered intelligence.
You freaked me out (this wouldn't be the first and probably wouldn't be the last time I thought something was there turned out not to be) so I checked my copy of the CRB just to be safe. (Note that this is the pocket edition, so I don't know if it's different from previous editions). I found it on page 220.
A Divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. When preparing spells for the day, a divine spellcaster can leave some of her spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes. During these extra sessions of preparation, she can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if she prepares more than one-quarter of her spells.
EDIT: It is correct that the CRB only specifically says the wizard can do it as far as arcane casters go, but I've always interpreted that as lack of future-proofing, since every CRB prepared caster can do it I felt that the intention was clear. Looking at the magus, it doesn't say anything in the class one way or the other, though it does often make references to how wizards do things throughout the class.
Nice, I failed to find that back then, to the chagrin of the party mystic theurge, who could do this on her wizard spells, but not on her cleric spells. Kind of annoying and stupid, so I am glad i was wrong.