What do we want Martial characters to be capable of?

[thflame]

I pose this question to the community, but I ask that we not answer it with, "to be on par with casters", as I think that is the general consensus.

What I'd like to see is what kinds of characters in fiction (or real life) that we would give as an example of a level 20 fighter/ranger/barbarian/etc.

Is a level 20 fighter Alexander the Great? Hawkeye? Captain America? Hercules? Kratos? Cloud?

Do these level 20 fighters have magic-like abilities (anime/wuxia)or are they capped at plausible real world physics (and if the latter, how do we reconcile that with powerful casters)?

Do we want high level martials to be reliant on magic items or do we want them to stand on their own.

[Themetricsystem]

I want my martial Characters to be as awesome as a full blown Sayin Warrior, I want to be able to cleave a solid stone wall in half, I want to be able to be able to put a Huge Devil in a Chokehold and crush his neck until he says uncle.

I want my martial Characters to be able to fire an arrow from a kilometer away and reliably hit a target, I want to be able to survive being thrown THROUGH a building and destroying a brick wall which stops my momentum. I want to be able to jump from a standstill and kick manticores in the underbelly.

[khadgar567]

i think people want more dynasty warriors then common fighter currently is. but personaly i want my monk to be more like ryu hayabusa rather then random budist monk they try to sell.

[Fuzzypaws]

I think Alexander is a 5th level, Hawkeye is a 10th level, Xena or RotK movie Legolas is a 15th level, and Cloud as of Advent Children is a 20th level.

I am completely okay with flashy awesome moves, and feats that defy Earthly physical reality. It's a supernatural setting with dragons and demons and flying meteor flinging wizards. Reality starts checking itself at the door around 5th-7th level.

I think EVERYONE should benefit from magic gear and NO ONE should require it.

I think extra damage dice should come from level and that magic weapons should be about properties rather than pluses. They won't get rid of pluses because legacy but do it in a more interesting way. Maybe what a +3 sword does is it lets you reroll an attack roll and take the better result 3 times a day; that'd still be awesome and useful but not mandatory.

[khadgar567]

Themetricsystem wrote:

I want my martial Characters to be as awesome as a full blown Sayin Warrior, I want to be able to cleave a solid stone wall in half, I want to be able to be able to put a Huge Devil in a Chokehold and crush his neck until he says uncle.

I want my martial Characters to be able to fire an arrow from a kilometer away and reliably hit a target, I want to be able to survive being thrown THROUGH a building and destroying a brick wall which stops my momentum. I want to be able to jump from a standstill and kick manticores in the underbelly.

so you want fighter to be goku thats bit op but right kinda op as i do love to be able to fire kamehameha against wizard point blank.

[thorin001]

I want my martials to be like the people in the action movies. The minimum is Lara Croft.

At the very least I want them to be able to do what can be done in real life. No, a 1st level does not need to be able to win the Olympics, but a 10th level sure should be able to compete

[thflame]

Fuzzypaws wrote:

I think extra damage dice should come from level and that magic weapons should be about properties rather than pluses. They won't get rid of pluses because legacy but do it in a more interesting way. Maybe what a +3 sword does is it lets you reroll an attack roll and take the better result 3 times a day; that'd still be awesome and useful but not mandatory.

Kinda off topic, but I had this idea that magic weapons imbue their owner with martial arts knowledge, increasing their Proficiency.

Something like Excalibur would have the spirit of a legendary swordsman in it that imparts his knowledge to the current wielder granting them Legendary Proficiency with that weapon. (Or perhaps just increases your Proficiency by one step. Just because you have a Legendary warrior giving you tips in your head, doesn't mean you can react to their advice.)

For characters that already have Legendary Proficiency, the sword could give them a bonus because they effectively have two legendary warriors' experience and training to pull from. Perhaps a morale/circumstance bonus?

[ikarinokami]

20th level I don't want anime.

I'm ok with iron fist, daredevil, nightwing.

or chow yun fats character in crouching tiger hidden dragon.

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

Anything Samurai Jack does.

[SuperSheep]

Martials should be weak like small children. They should beg their Wizard overlords for gruel everyday and be grateful that the Wizard doesn't just smite them down, but then realize that they're not worth the spell slot. Martials should be grateful that their measly hit points can be used to soak damage intended for their betters.

They should be limited to small, rusty broken weapons and realize that they aren't worthy to be in the same room with a magic weapon much less look at one.

Martials should be thankful that they have the strength to climb stairs, not walls. They should recognize what little strength they have is to be a human pack-mule for the Wizard's many spell books.

Martials should remember than when a Wizard needs to sit, their place is as a human chair as to not let the Wizard's robe get soiled.

To be clear, the Martial's place is under the Wizard's foot.

-- A reasonable Wizard's position.

(The above is designed to be read as satire. If you do not recognize this as satire, my condolences that you've had to deal with so many jerk players OR if you're one of our "special" wizard community... something, something, something)

[PossibleCabbage]

I want high level martials to be on the level of Heracles or Gilgamesh or Hanuman or Cú Chulainn or Guan Yu. Realism be darned, I want to be able to tell stories about the most badass people who don't cast spells, and a lot of the great badasses of literature are not wizards or similar.

[FitzTheRuke]

I think they should be grounded in reality at low-levels, but can shoot for the moon (maybe literally) at high levels.

That said, I think that real people can do crazy s*** that most people think is impossible. Certainly gamers have a tendency to think that physical exploits are "unrealistic" because *they* can't do them.

When you give a competent person time to practice... amazing stuff happens.

[Lyricanna]

ikarinokami wrote:

20th level I don't want anime.

I'm ok with iron fist, daredevil, nightwing.

or chow yun fats character in crouching tiger hidden dragon.

Why? What's so special about a daredevil character being say, Level 10 and caping the game there for max level if you want to tell a more realistic game.

8th through 10th level magic is world changing in scope. It allows characters to go so far beyond "realistic" means it isn't even funny. So why should martial characters be even remotely limited to "realism" at higher levels.

[RazarTuk]

Once again, Spheres of Might... It manages to buff martials up to Tier 3-4, while staying reasonably grounded in reality, but also has advanced talents for GMs who don't mind a bit more wu xia in their games.

It's very much not impossible to balance realistic-ish characters with 2/3 casters. The problem is when all casters become tiers 1 and 2, which they might be shaping up to be in 2e.

[pauljathome]

I want martials to be still somewhat bounded by real world physics without magic. I do NOT want martials (in general) to be able to fly, to breathe fire, etc.

That said, I have no problem with Wuxia monks who can leap incredible distances, Xena throwers who can bounce an object 12 times, Samson like strongmen who can tear down temples.

But no one martial should be able to do ALL of those.

I DO want them to be relevant in game, both in and out of combat.

The basic martials in late PF1 actually are quite decent for me. The unchained Monks, unchained rogues. The archetypes and multiclass combinations that take those characters in interesting but NOT overpowered directions.

So, on a basic power level, a PF1 unchained monk is about right to me. Or a basic barbarian. Anything that makes these characters better at a focussed activity but worse in general (or better at one very focussed thing) is fine.

Many martials would need upgrading their out of combat abilities. But, again, late PF1 is doing a pretty decent job of that even for classes like the fighter.

But I'd then reduce the power of the full caster classes. NOT nerf them into the ground but bring them down to approximately that power level.

In terms of relative power level, I largely like where PF2 is. The druid is a good example. It can EITHER have a pet OR be a really good spellcaster OR wild shape a lot. Not all 3 at once. And the druid/pet (the only one I've playtested) is about on par with a martial for basic power.

[Telefax]

I want awesome stuff at higher levels, quite frankly, everyone NEEDS a supernatural power source at levels 10+ to be competitive against higher level spells. In the original ODnD framework, that the spell levels are still built around, level 4 was hero tier, like conan, level 6 was peak humanity, like batman, and level 8+ were explicitly superheroic. the rules did not support that playstyle, but it was the assumption, and 4th+ level spells have a feel way, way outside the fiction that inspired dnd, except the Vance stories, and in those stories, you had, tops, 6 spell slots total.

Therefore, if you want to have realistic fiction, keep it to levels 10 and less, and let those of us who want fantasy superheroes, maybe with anime etc inflences get them at level 10+.

Personally, i'd prefer a system where you have normal classes at below tenth level, and upgrade to a prestige class at 11, like archmage for wizard, cultivator for monk, dragon rager for barbarian etc and let all those have supernatural underpinnings. Lots of opportunities to sell splat books too.

Just dont pretend you can keep the Sword and sorcery/lord of the rings feel of lower levels past level 5.

[Telefax]

I'd also add to it that levels have suffered from devaluation in every single version of D&D, with the biggest offender being the forgotten realms guide in 3.0, which statted up drizzt as a level 25+ character, and elminster as level 30+. There is no way Drizzt in the books (at that time) was anything beyond maybe level 11, but it colored peoples perception of levels for a long time.

The fact remains a level 9 cleric (not level 9 spells, level 9) in 3.pf can call down a miracle equivalent of almost everything God did in the old testament to prove His existance, beyond level 9 it just gets silly.

[pauljathome]

Telefax wrote:

Therefore, if you want to have realistic fiction, keep it to levels 10 and less, and let those of us who want fantasy superheroes, maybe with anime etc inflences get them at level 10+.

The following is a genuine question, NOT meant to be dismissive. I genuinely want to know.

If you want to play superheroic fantasy, the obvious solution to me is to START with a super heroic game and then graft on the fantasy element.

Mutants and Masterminds has done exactly this. Hero did this. I think nearly ALL superhero games have done this. In all the cases that I know about, you start with a system that is DESIGNED to handle super heroes and then add the fantasy elements.

This seems to me by far the best route to a superheroic fantasy. The game system is designed from the ground up to handle the incredible disparity in "raw power" levels, the incredible range of powers. Its designed to answer the "What happens when the irresistable force meets the immovable object". It lets heroes go from stopping a mugging to saving the universe twice a week. Whereas Pathfinder is designed around a much narrower power range (both in terms of power levels and, to a lesser extent, in terms of ways characters can interact with the world)

The fantasy tropes are fairly easily added on top of that. The magic swords, the fact that people use magic instead of mutant powers are basically flavour (really cool and necessary flavour but they ARE flavour).

Those of you who want to play that game, why aren't you using a superhero game as your engine? What is it about Pathfinder that makes you prefer THAT as your engine?

[Telefax]

Because we like the whole zero to hero thing.

Starting out as a low level weak nobody that almost dies to goblins, fighting all the way to the top? Not that hard really, its just that no system really does it well. D&D 4 tried, with those really awesome epic destinies, but the math broke down in higher paragon and turned into a grindfest. (I also hated scaling dc:s and to hit being balanced around 50%, which is why i currently cant get myself to like this playtest) D&D 3,5 had lots of super awesome prestige classes (Sadly the coolest ones were usually comically weak).

Pathfinder has lots of cool stuff. I recently played an aquakineticist kinetic healer, and while it was weak mechanically, it did deliver on the flavor.

[Greylurker]

RazarTuk wrote:

Once again, Spheres of Might... It manages to buff martials up to Tier 3-4, while staying reasonably grounded in reality, but also has advanced talents for GMs who don't mind a bit more wu xia in their games.

It's very much not impossible to balance realistic-ish characters with 2/3 casters. The problem is when all casters become tiers 1 and 2, which they might be shaping up to be in 2e.

Yeah I'm pretty much going to point at Spheres of Might too.

I master a Fighting style and can do pretty cool, but still semi-realistic stuff with it, can even combine it with other fighting styles I know to pull off some really cool stuff.

But I'm not gonna be sending a wind slash across the battlefield without magic

[Lausth]

In PF 1e building a competent martial required a lot of system mastery,finding the best magical item in 600(or something like that) magical items and a lot of planing. I have met with people who thinks animal companions are better than fighters because of this. If we can avoid that then i am happy. I want my martials to be able do things in common fantasy tropes and some ridicules stuff with ease.

[pauljathome]

Telefax wrote:

Because we like the whole zero to hero thing.

Thanks for the answer.

Also, you're right. Superhero games do NOT handle low level stuff very well at all. I'd argue that the far better handling of high level stuff makes that a fair trade off but I acknowledge that it definitely IS a trade off.

[Telefax]

Yeah, i have played superhero games as well. played a decent length campaign in m&m 3e. I found the narrative bent unsatisfying as well as disliking the lack of hit points. My groups powergamers also misused teleportation powers and arrays hard.

Zero to Superhero in a more simulationist system, like what d&d 3e tried to do, is really satisfying. I've had multiple gm:s stating that they wanted to run from 1st level to epic, but none ever did due to practical reasons. I prefer starting at higher levels, usually 4th or 6th.

For another example, take Rise of the runelords. There is no way a normal mortal human fighter can survive to the end of that ap without supernatural help. we played it with a gm adhering strictly to RAW, and our martials were absolutely miserable towards the end.

[thflame]

pauljathome wrote:

That said, I have no problem with Wuxia monks who can leap incredible distances, Xena throwers who can bounce an object 12 times, Samson like strongmen who can tear down temples.

But no one martial should be able to do ALL of those.

Another off topic point, but I feel the same way about casters in general.

Casters should be able to call down meteors, conjure monsters, bring people back from the dead, turn into dragons, etc.

But no one caster should be able to do all or even most of those things.

[Moro]

I want them to have a noticeable, dynamic effect on and meaningful decisions to make in combat, and significant narrative options out of combat, all on par or nearly on par with casters from earlier editions.

I don't really care what form these options or effects take, what source is used to explain them, or how mundane or over-the-top they seem. I just don't want to see martial players required to play "mother may I?" with the GM to feel relevant past level 9 or 10.

[Rysky]

Kratos (especially from the latest game on the PS4) would be a good bechmark of what I want Barbarians to be capable of.

[Data Lore]

I want the current implementation. I want no part of any game that plays like a japanese cartoon or a console button masher.

[catman123456]

Telefax wrote:

I'd also add to it that levels have suffered from devaluation in every single version of D&D, with the biggest offender being the forgotten realms guide in 3.0, which statted up drizzt as a level 25+ character, and elminster as level 30+. There is no way Drizzt in the books (at that time) was anything beyond maybe level 11, but it colored peoples perception of levels for a long time.

The fact remains a level 9 cleric (not level 9 spells, level 9) in 3.pf can call down a miracle equivalent of almost everything God did in the old testament to prove His existance, beyond level 9 it just gets silly.

Well to be that guy Drizzt in 3.0 is lv. 15 but your spot on for elminster lv.31 w/mythic and a template. Also a marty stu.

[PossibleCabbage]

Data Lore wrote:

I want the current implementation. I want no part of any game that plays like a japanese cartoon or a console button masher.

Problem I have with the current system is that it's weirdly inconsistent what a fighter can do. Like a level 20 fighter can fairly easily wrestle an elephant to the ground with no grappling training, can drink poison for fun, can aim and fire 5 heavy crossbow bolts in six seconds, can punch through stone walls, and can tap dance after being shot by a dozen arrows... but we can't let him jump higher than a normal person.

[Telefax]

catman123456 wrote:

Well to be that guy Drizzt in 3.0 is lv. 15 but your spot on for elminster lv.31 w/mythic and a template. Also a marty stu.

Ok, I misremembered, rechecked, lvl 16+2 LA. still about 4-5 levels too high imo.

The epic level handbook was the biggest mistake in 3.0 apart from the haste spell. Messed with perceptions about the game. You should not need more than 20 levels to be truly epic. most OSR retroclones cap at 10 for a reason. I just personally want to feel epic at levels 10+, and a basic fighter or rogue is not a high level concept.

[Lausth]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Data Lore wrote:

I want the current implementation. I want no part of any game that plays like a japanese cartoon or a console button masher.

Problem I have with the current system is that it's weirdly inconsistent what a fighter can do. Like a level 20 fighter can fairly easily wrestle an elephant to the ground with no grappling training, can drink poison for fun, can aim and fire 5 heavy crossbow bolts in six seconds, can punch through stone walls, and can tap dance after being shot by a dozen arrows... but we can't let him jump higher than a normal person.

Some people want certain kind of realism. It doesnt mean it is fair. They just dont like certain classes doing certain things.

It is not bad that they want their fun in a certain way however that causes problems with people with different kinds of expectations.
Pazio just tries to give the classic fighter feeling. Honestly if i was in their place i would have done the same thing.

PS:I am not one of those people.

[Corwin Icewolf]

I want low level martials to be skilled, strong warriors, and high level martials to be gilgamesh, Beowulf, Hercules level. Low Anime level works great too, really some of the myths are right on par with anime anyway. I don't need them blowing up planets, but high street or mountain level would be great.

I also want them to be able to say "true power comes from within," and not have someone point out that they're covered in magic items. I want them to be able to rely on their own strength rather than magic items without signing their own death warrants.

[Vidmaster7]

Exactly like and absolutely nothing like what everyone else has said or will say.

[magnuskn]

pauljathome wrote:

The following is a genuine question, NOT meant to be dismissive. I genuinely want to know.

If you want to play superheroic fantasy, the obvious solution to me is to START with a super heroic game and then graft on the fantasy element.

<snip>

Those of you who want to play that game, why aren't you using a superhero game as your engine? What is it about Pathfinder that makes you prefer THAT as your engine?

Because many martial players seem jealous of casters. I like playing martials as well as casters, but I would probably never play a Fighter or Rogue, because I want more options. However, there are fans of playing purely martial characters and I see them trying to get the casters in the game nerfed to get them more down to their level, instead of getting their characters up to the level of the casters. I don't know how to characterize this as anything else than rank jealousy or the attempt to kidnap the game from what it is now to a fundamentally different game.

Other than that, because Pathfinder and D&D always have been superhero games in the past. You are punching dragons as big as palaces in the face at high levels. I don't know how else you could characterize this as anything else but a superhero game.

[Lyricanna]

There is a reason why Path of War and Spheres of might are the most used 3PP rulesets out there. Cause frankly, the entire martial caster divide can be summed up like so: "If spellcasters get to do all this ridiculous magic at higher levels, why cant martials do the same?"

Sure you could fix this by nerfing EVERYTHING down to the level of a Fighter or Chained Rouge, but as everyone who has ever played a completive video game knows, hitting the entire S, A, and B tiers with Nerf bats just makes a LOT of unhappy players. No, it's far better to make things fun for EVERYONE by bringing martials up to the same level of shenanigans as casters.

[Vic Ferrari]

Was hoping Legendary would open up for some really epic shenanigans; Herculean/mythic type stuff, swim for days, rip a demon's head off with your bare hands (Barbarian Feat: Demon Head-Rip!), that sort of thing.

[Shaheer-El-Khatib]

I am seriously torn on this topic and can't find a proper answer.

On one side I am fairly "simulationist".

If someone is in a stormy ocean really far of the cost and no boat in sight he is probably dead.
Trying to climb a perfect smooth wall barehanded ? Auto fail.

My players are totally ok with that so it is fine for my table. I also use a low magic setting and the only full caster in the party isn't really optimizing to break the game.

One the other side I totally understand people that want to do Olympian stuff. That is also very cool. I would like to play it too sometimes but I disagree a bit for the scaling. I would say Heroes become "Mythical heroes" at level 12-15. Not earlier.

But again my personal tastes are kinda far from the Pathfinder Norm

[Vic Ferrari]

Shaheer-El-Khatib wrote:

I am seriously torn on this topic and can't find a proper answer.

On one side I am fairly "simulationist".

If someone is in a stormy ocean really far of the cost and no boat in sight he is probably dead.
Trying to climb a perfect smooth wall barehanded ? Auto fail.

My players are totally ok with that so it is fine for my table. I also use a low magic setting and the only full caster in the party isn't really optimizing to break the game.

One the other side I totally understand people that want to do Olympian stuff. That is also very cool. I would like to play it too sometimes but I disagree a bit for the scaling. I would say Heroes become "Mythical heroes" at level 12-15. Not earlier.

But again my personal tastes are kinda far from the Pathfinder Norm

I am on a similar page, it should be something you can bring online at high level play, the game should also support low magic, as well. Too much reliance on magic items, currently, for my tastes.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

I want my martials to be able to be awesome without resorting to magic-like mechanics (initiating), without being forced to look like a shounen anime character (again, most initiating), and without their abilities being magical in origin (again, many of the initiating styles).

Not that these things are bad in themselves and you can by all means have these things available as well, but I don't want it as the default. Resorting to magic to make martials better isn't really addressing the issue of magic being better than mundanity.

Low-level mundanes should be worried about being gored by a bull, high level one should be more like Heracles, Beowulf or Gilgamesh than Conan.

[Rob Godfrey]

pauljathome wrote:

Telefax wrote:

Therefore, if you want to have realistic fiction, keep it to levels 10 and less, and let those of us who want fantasy superheroes, maybe with anime etc inflences get them at level 10+.

The following is a genuine question, NOT meant to be dismissive. I genuinely want to know.

If you want to play superheroic fantasy, the obvious solution to me is to START with a super heroic game and then graft on the fantasy element.

Mutants and Masterminds has done exactly this. Hero did this. I think nearly ALL superhero games have done this. In all the cases that I know about, you start with a system that is DESIGNED to handle super heroes and then add the fantasy elements.

This seems to me by far the best route to a superheroic fantasy. The game system is designed from the ground up to handle the incredible disparity in "raw power" levels, the incredible range of powers. Its designed to answer the "What happens when the irresistable force meets the immovable object". It lets heroes go from stopping a mugging to saving the universe twice a week. Whereas Pathfinder is designed around a much narrower power range (both in terms of power levels and, to a lesser extent, in terms of ways characters can interact with the world)

The fantasy tropes are fairly easily added on top of that. The magic swords, the fact that people use magic instead of mutant powers are basically flavour (really cool and necessary flavour but they ARE flavour).

Those of you who want to play that game, why aren't you using a superhero game as your engine? What is it about Pathfinder that makes you prefer THAT as your engine?

that then leaves casters playing a superhero game...while martials are a complete waste of a party slot. So we already HAVE a super hero game, just martial lclasses aren't allowed to play it.

[magnuskn]

Rob Godfrey wrote:

that then leaves casters playing a superhero game...while martials are a complete waste of a party slot. So we already HAVE a super hero game, just martial casters aren't allowed to play it.

Which is why it makes more sense to bring martials up, rather than casters down.

[Lausth]

I dont get it. Why do you guys think that martials are useless?

EDİT:This is starting to feel like a both gm and a system mastery problem rather than a martials are useless problem.

[thejeff]

magnuskn wrote:

Rob Godfrey wrote:

that then leaves casters playing a superhero game...while martials are a complete waste of a party slot. So we already HAVE a super hero game, just martial casters aren't allowed to play it.

Which is why it makes more sense to bring martials up, rather than casters down.

Or perhaps both.

Since another common complaint is how hard it is to play or run the game at high levels. Cranking up the power another notch by bringing martials up to caster craziness is just going to make that aspect worse.

[Lyee]

Lausth wrote:

I dont get it. Why do you guys think that martials are useless?

EDİT:This is starting to feel like a both gm and a system mastery problem rather than a martials are useless problem.

The more experience I get with PF, the more I tend to agree. The idea that martials need narrative-bending class features has never held up in play, as players with good system mastery can always bend the narrative through a combination of items, odd feats, roleplaying, etc. I have played 6000 hours of Roll20, about all of which have been PF1. I have yet to see high level martials feel useless, which I think is largely due to me often playing with experienced PCs that can make a martial work.

[David Silver - Ponyfinder]

The big bad is dead, you all threw your various talents at it, good job.

Now the treasure is floating at the top of the room. The walls are smooth and slick, and there's nothing to grab onto on the ceiling either. What do?!

Spellcasters have a lot of tools to approach this problem, possibly even just flying out there to snatch it.

Fighter, significantly less so (Can I shoot an arrow at the treasure?).

Oh no, the King is possessed and is currently a huge demon. No problem, we smack him until he's defeated, good job, but we still have a demon-king. How do we get him back to normal king?

On the plus side here, maybe a ritual in PF2? A fighter could maybe help with that.

Oh no, we are lost in the wilderness! Too bad survival can only help one person at a time. Oh wait, the spellcaster has this handled.

In order to defeat the true source of evil, we must confront it in its fell plane! Anyone bring a spare extraplanar gate?

My paladin is being attacked by a swarm of flying harpies with bows. How doomed is he/she? Can they even strike back without surrendering a large portion of their power in the process? Let's replace this with a bestial barbarian. Good luck getting your claws on them, sucker.

We hear something coming! The ranger is a trapmaster, he'll lay some traps. Wait, due to a want for simulationist realism (only when martials are concerned), he cannot get any out fast enough to matter before they bad guys show up a round or two later.

My vote is for elevating martials. This is a magic world, let them magic in their actions. Let the ranger throw down traps as casually as a fighter swings his sword. A fighter being able to swing so hard they can hit things at a distance? Love it, more please.

Can my barbarian cleave the nature of reality itself and rip open bloody portals between worlds? Sign me right the heck up.

I do not comprehend the hatred of non-mythological martials, especially past the low levels. As the wizard advances past magic missile, the martial should also be unfolding into increasing levels of awesome.

Or so I say, but I'm just a neigh-sayer.

[Shaheer-El-Khatib]

thejeff wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

Rob Godfrey wrote:

that then leaves casters playing a superhero game...while martials are a complete waste of a party slot. So we already HAVE a super hero game, just martial casters aren't allowed to play it.

Which is why it makes more sense to bring martials up, rather than casters down.

Or perhaps both.

Since another common complaint is how hard it is to play or run the game at high levels. Cranking up the power another notch by bringing martials up to caster craziness is just going to make that aspect worse.

Right.

Bringing martial up to casters would be "Hey folks, remember how you can totally break the game with some classes ? You can do it with all classes now"

Which would be... Well... "interresting" I guess.
Until the GM suicide.

[Lyee]

David Silver - Ponyfinder wrote:

The big bad is dead, you all threw your various talents at it, good job.

Now the treasure is floating at the top of the room. The walls are smooth and slick, and there's nothing to grab onto on the ceiling either. What do?!

Spellcasters have a lot of tools to approach this problem, possibly even just flying out there to snatch it.

Fighter, significantly less so (Can I shoot an arrow at the treasure?).

Oh no, the King is possessed and is currently a huge demon. No problem, we smack him until he's defeated, good job, but we still have a demon-king. How do we get him back to normal king?

On the plus side here, maybe a ritual in PF2? A fighter could maybe help with that.

Oh no, we are lost in the wilderness! Too bad survival can only help one person at a time. Oh wait, the spellcaster has this handled.

In order to defeat the true source of evil, we must confront it in its fell plane! Anyone bring a spare extraplanar gate?

My paladin is being attacked by a swarm of flying harpies with bows. How doomed is he/she? Can they even strike back without surrendering a large portion of their power in the process? Let's replace this with a bestial barbarian. Good luck getting your claws on them, sucker.

We hear something coming! The ranger is a trapmaster, he'll lay some traps. Wait, due to a want for simulationist realism (only when martials are concerned), he cannot get any out fast enough to matter before they bad guys show up a round or two later.

My vote is for elevating martials. This is a magic world, let them magic in their actions. Let the ranger throw down traps as casually as a fighter swings his sword. A fighter being able to swing so hard they can hit things at a distance? Love it, more please.

Can my barbarian cleave the nature of reality itself and rip open bloody portals between worlds? Sign me right the heck up.

I do not comprehend the hatred of non-mythological martials, especially past the low levels. As the wizard advances past magic missile, the martial should also be...

Yep, my PF1 martials never had issues with these situations. They had rings of invisibility, aasimair feats to grant flight, gnomish speak with animals when lost in the wilderness, absurd perform skills to soothe the harpies, knew a couple devils to pull strings in hell for them.

I'm not arguing against giving martials more cool stuff. I just think that PF1, by this point with all its splat, actually had martials in a cool place where they could do all sorts of neat things and drive a narrative. I hope master-legendary skill feats, high level ancestry feats, and some of the class feat options, really enable this from CRB in PF2.

[Shaheer-El-Khatib]

David Silver - Ponyfinder wrote:

The big bad is dead, you all threw your various talents at it, good job.

Now the treasure is floating at the top of the room. The walls are smooth and slick, and there's nothing to grab onto on the ceiling either. What do?!

Spellcasters have a lot of tools to approach this problem, possibly even just flying out there to snatch it.

Fighter, significantly less so (Can I shoot an arrow at the treasure?).

Oh no, the King is possessed and is currently a huge demon. No problem, we smack him until he's defeated, good job, but we still have a demon-king. How do we get him back to normal king?

On the plus side here, maybe a ritual in PF2? A fighter could maybe help with that.

Oh no, we are lost in the wilderness! Too bad survival can only help one person at a time. Oh wait, the spellcaster has this handled.

In order to defeat the true source of evil, we must confront it in its fell plane! Anyone bring a spare extraplanar gate?

My paladin is being attacked by a swarm of flying harpies with bows. How doomed is he/she? Can they even strike back without surrendering a large portion of their power in the process? Let's replace this with a bestial barbarian. Good luck getting your claws on them, sucker.

We hear something coming! The ranger is a trapmaster, he'll lay some traps. Wait, due to a want for simulationist realism (only when martials are concerned), he cannot get any out fast enough to matter before they bad guys show up a round or two later.

My vote is for elevating martials. This is a magic world, let them magic in their actions. Let the ranger throw down traps as casually as a fighter swings his sword. A fighter being able to swing so hard they can hit things at a distance? Love it, more please.

Can my barbarian cleave the nature of reality itself and rip open bloody portals between worlds? Sign me right the heck up.

I do not comprehend the hatred of non-mythological martials, especially past the low levels. As the wizard advances past magic missile, the martial should also be...

I'm 200% sure most of the 20 Players I play with would ban me of the table if I tried this idea.

Most people don't Feel martial too weak but casters too much versatile. Passed one point they can solo almost anything.

It's not an accident if a very popular houserule is "max level is level 8". High level can really become hell if your players know how to Legally break the game. Sure you can prevent them by ultra heavy house rule but at this point you are better making a new game system on your own.

[Lausth]

Many things you just said can be identified as a GM problem.

-Yes you can shoot that arrow. Why is this a question?

-You replace him or find someone or something that can fix that problem which a gm should put in his game.(demon king)

-There should be some magic items that can fix that survival issue and please stop acting like that every caster is ready for every situation there is. We prepare solutions to problems we expect to encounter.

-Story problems such as traveling to a different plane are gm problems. Gm is responsible with putting that solution to his/her game.

[Matthew Downie]

Lausth wrote:

Why do you guys think that martials are useless?

Who in this thread claimed martials are useless?

Martials are reliably useful in standard adventures, as long as they have caster support (or expensive magic item support) for the types of problems that can only be dealt with by magic.

The people in this thread complaining about martial power aren't saying, "Martials need to be useful!"

They're saying, "Martials need to be awesome!"