Exploration and social tactics an extremely janky, nonsensical, and problematic mechanic.

[Colette Brunel]

Exploration and social tactics an extremely janky, nonsensical, and problematic mechanic. I was running Doomsday Dawn: Part #1: The Lost Star earlier, and exploration and social tactics leapt out to me as an intense chore. I discovered the following problems over the course of play and as I thought about matters.

• Tactic Problem #1: There is no integration between tactics and premade adventures at all. There are no guidelines in the scenarios that help GMs adjudicate tactics.

• Tactic Problem #2: Players are supposed to describe what their characters are doing, and the GM is then to assign an appropriate tactic. That worked the first couple of times, but soon thereafter, the players realized just how limiting tactics were, so they simply declared their tactics outright.

• Tactic Problem #3: "Investigating" sounds too similar to "Searching." Players were mixing up the two all the time.

• Tactic Problem #4: "Investigating" means that a character will wind up with a glut of information... and, due to critical failures, a glut of misinformation as well. This is onerous for the GM to concoct on the fly.

• Tactic Problem #5a: It simply does not make sense that some of these tactics cannot be combined. I can buy that a character cannot be in "Detecting Magic" mode at the same time as "(Mundane) Searching" mode or "Sneaking" mode, but the rest are wholly preposterous. A character literally cannot Recall Knowledge unless they put on their thinking cap and devote themselves to the "Investigating" tactic, and they similarly cannot Seek unless they use the "Searching" tactic. Apparently, it is utterly impossible to simultaneously keep an eye on one's surroundings while recalling pertinent facts about what one sees!

• Tactic Problem #5b: As an extension of the previous point, for social tactics, it is completely impossible to be both "Conversing" and "Looking Out," because if one is engaged in a back-and-forth conversation, it is beyond their capacities to also gauge people for lies. It is also impossible to be "Carousing" (gathering information) and "Looking Out" simultaneously, which is rather damning, seeing how a character should be able to try to detect deceptions from sources of information.

• Tactic Problem #6: If a party has time to spare, there is no reason not to have the entire party make sweeps over a room with "Searching," ala Investigating, and then have the party's high-knowledge characters give a sweep with "Investigating." Since characters cannot look at things and remember things simultaneously, they will just have to look at things with a fine-toothed comb until they discover everything there is to possibly discover, and then they can get the smart folks to remember things. After all, anyone less educated is probably going to roll critical failures and muddle the party's knowledge base with erroneous information.

• Tactic Problem #7: Exploration tactics integrate poorly with animal companions and familiars, the latter more so. Familiars have strong Perception modifiers, so a familiar-owner will want to have their familiar perform "Searching," but given that commanding a familiar takes an action, it is a mystery as to how familiars and animal companions slot into exploration tactics.

[Vessa]

Holy god, its sad to see that even this portion of the playtest is wonky.

[DerNils]

Sadly, I also have trouble how to integrate this in the game. So in ever dungeon room, before or after an Encounter, I ask them for a tactic? What for? And they cannot sneak and look for traps at the same time? That means the rogue, who wants to use stealth as initiative, is actually not scouting, that will be someone else?
In addition, I don't know what is to keep my players from doing the various "fatiguing" Options for 9 minutes, taking a break, then take them up again.
Or are those tactics supposed to be 10 minutes per day, ever? Why do I ever Need a Shopping activity? Am I seriously supposed to ask everybody for each Shopping day "Who is the lookout, who is doing the actual Shopping?" Way to make my Players superparanoid for no gain at all. What is the difference if my Player is wandering the City or Shopping? They are both still unable to identify any person or place they Encounter (as they can't use recall Knowledge), and in case of the inevitable Shopping ambush, both will roll perception for initiative.

What does this System actually do? Can somebody give an example how it worked in any Scenario?

[eddv]

I agree with this.

I realize it makes it a bit easier to engage in things like social combats or chases but even just in prepping for the game I am finding the idea of having to be engaging with a subsystem at all times to be exhausting.

I do think this is an area where rules have been added that nobody asked for that make the game run more clumsily.

[MaxAstro]

Colette Brunel wrote:

Tactic Problem #7: Exploration tactics integrate poorly with animal companions and familiars, the latter more so. Familiars have strong Perception modifiers, so a familiar-owner will want to have their familiar perform "Searching," but given that commanding a familiar takes an action, it is a mystery as to how familiars and animal companions slot into exploration tactics.

While I agree with most of what you said, I want to address this point as it is a bit of incorrect information that seems to be popping up here and there on the forums. You absolutely can still take miscellaneous actions during exploration mode.

Pg. 329 under Exploration

Actions and Reactions: Though exploration’s not broken into rounds, the exploration tactics assume the PCs are spending part of their time taking actions. If they have specific actions they want to take, they should ask you, and you can decide whether it’s relevant and whether to switch to encounter mode for greater detail. PCs can take any relevant reactions that come up.

[Hythlodeus]

DerNils wrote:

Sadly, I also have trouble how to integrate this in the game.

You don't. You ignore it. It's a mechanism purely designed to take the RP aspect out of the RPG without completely comitting to it. It adds nothing except for a couple of 'fatigued' conditions and steers the Player's creativity over a handful of 'tactics' that have no influence over the rest of the game anyway.

[DerNils]

But I want at least to test it, and as it stands, I really don't know how.

[Hythlodeus]

the second adventure in DD should give you enough possibilities, with all that overland travel

[Kerobelis]

eddv wrote:

I agree with this.

I realize it makes it a bit easier to engage in things like social combats or chases but even just in prepping for the game I am finding the idea of having to be engaging with a subsystem at all times to be exhausting.

I do think this is an area where rules have been added that nobody asked for that make the game run more clumsily.

I +1 this comment. I really do not think these rules are necessary. I have never had a problem in any edition of D&D with the act of exploring a dungeon. Exploration mode just sounds so "gamey".

I think good downtime rules are a nice thing, but Encounter mode is just not needed.

[DerNils]

I do like the intent, which seems to be everybody has a specific role during Exploration mode. A bit like the ship battle in starfinder, it gives all Party members something to do instead of the Ranger doing all the scouting, tracking and perception roles.
It's just that currently, there are very few useful or interesting tactics, some are gated behind a bizarre 10 minutes Maximum Duration and they are woefully unclear.

My new favourite - is Defending is the only tactic enabling you to have your weapon drawn when an Encounter starts?

Defending
You move at half your travel Speed with your weapon
out and shield raised. If combat breaks out, you gain the
benefits of Raising a Shield before your first turn begins.

As this is the only tactic mentioning this, it seems so. So no sneaking with Dagger drawn, friend Rogue.

[DerNils]

I am using this thread to Point out other Problems with exploration mode. This time, the example for which skill to use for initiative (pg331):

- Merisiel and Kyra have been captured and are negotiating
with the kobold king. Things aren’t going well, so Merisiel
decides she’ll launch a surprise attack against the king. As
soon as she says this is her plan, you call for initiative. -

What threw me off was how they extended on this to explain using different skills for initiative (pg. 331-332).

- For example, if in the prelude to the attack, Merisiel’s player had
said, “I’m going to dangle down off the chandelier to get
the drop on them,” you could let her use Acrobatics for her
initiative roll. -

Really? In the middle of the negotiation, Merisiel decides to climb up on the chandelier, and after that we roll initiative? Based on Acrobatics?

This is just one of the Points where it is painfully vague and annoying as to how we are supposed to Transition from Exploration mode to Encounter mode.

[chocobot]

DerNils wrote:

I am using this thread to Point out other Problems with exploration mode. This time, the example for which skill to use for initiative (pg331):

- Merisiel and Kyra have been captured and are negotiating
with the kobold king. Things aren’t going well, so Merisiel
decides she’ll launch a surprise attack against the king. As
soon as she says this is her plan, you call for initiative. -

What threw me off was how they extended on this to explain using different skills for initiative (pg. 331-332).

- For example, if in the prelude to the attack, Merisiel’s player had
said, “I’m going to dangle down off the chandelier to get
the drop on them,” you could let her use Acrobatics for her
initiative roll. -

Really? In the middle of the negotiation, Merisiel decides to climb up on the chandelier, and after that we roll initiative? Based on Acrobatics?

This is just one of the Points where it is painfully vague and annoying as to how we are supposed to Transition from Exploration mode to Encounter mode.

Kyra: Let's work something out, your majesty. Perhaps we might reach an arrangement that benefits us both?

Kobold King: No, no, no! Humans are slaves now!

Merisiel: What? I'm not human, you moron.

Kyra: You're not a diplomat either...

Kobold King: Lies, lies, humans always lie!

Merisiel: That's just racist, you little dragon wart. And again, I'm not human!

Kyra: Just calm down and let me handle this, please, Meri. Please!

Kobold King: You slaves now, humans.

Merisiel: That's it, I'm climbing the chandelier

Kyra: Is that code for... oh dear goddess, you're really doing it

Kobold King: No, no! My lighty thing. Mine! Guards, get human off lighty thing!

Kobold Guards: (look way up at the chandelier, then down at the short swords in their hands)

Kyra: Uh... King... your majesty, ignore my friend please. I'm sure she's just getting some exercise. Let us discuss the orcs in the southern passages. Life would sure be easier for the kobolds if we took care of them for you.

Merisiel: Surprise attack!

Kyra: (sighs) Chaotic neutral...

[Colette Brunel]

MaxAstro wrote:

Actions and Reactions: Though exploration’s not broken into rounds, the exploration tactics assume the PCs are spending part of their time taking actions. If they have specific actions they want to take, they should ask you, and you can decide whether it’s relevant and whether to switch to encounter mode for greater detail. PCs can take any relevant reactions that come up.

If you can just mix in Recall Knowledge and Seek actions as you please, purely as an example, then there is no point at all in having exploration tactics.

[Colette Brunel]

DerNils wrote:

Defending

You move at half your travel Speed with your weapon out and shield raised. If combat breaks out, you gain the benefits of Raising a Shield before your first turn begins.

Another excellent example of jankiness in the exploration tactics.

DerNils wrote:

Merisiel and Kyra have been captured and are negotiating with the kobold king. Things aren’t going well, so Merisiel decides she’ll launch a surprise attack against the king. As soon as she says this is her plan, you call for initiative.

For example, if in the prelude to the attack, Merisiel’s player had said, “I’m going to dangle down off the chandelier to get the drop on them,” you could let her use Acrobatics for her initiative roll.

This also makes no sense to me. Apparently, Merisiel gets to climb a chandelier mid-conversation.

[vagabond_666]

chocobot wrote:

Merisiel: Surprise attack!

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means...

Hythlodeus is right.

2nd Ed is a game first and foremost. Unfortunately in some cases it is an objectively bad game. The Exploration rules are one of those cases.

[DerNils]

chocobot, you just made my day ;)
I like the idea of Exploration mode, but the way it is implemented here...

What I could imagine would make for a more feasible and interesting Approach to the tactics - either give the guy that does this have a Bonus on the activity, or everyone else a malus.

E.g., you decide that you want to use the stealth tactic. That means if you Need to make a perception roll due to an upcoming hazard, you get a -2 on the roll, as you were concentrating on staying hidden.

Or if you want to be defending, you get to have weapons out and about, but that means you have -2 if you need to do a Lore roll to recognise the Magic Fountain, because you were paying more Attention to being combat ready.

This would give tactics meaning, but not make absurd Things like "if the Party sneaks, nobody can detect traps"

[O. N.]

Colette Brunel wrote:

MaxAstro wrote:

Actions and Reactions: Though exploration’s not broken into rounds, the exploration tactics assume the PCs are spending part of their time taking actions. If they have specific actions they want to take, they should ask you, and you can decide whether it’s relevant and whether to switch to encounter mode for greater detail. PCs can take any relevant reactions that come up.

If you can just mix in Recall Knowledge and Seek actions as you please, purely as an example, then there is no point at all in having exploration tactics.

The way I read that section, the whole thing is mostly a guide for GMs about how to handle that part, not a straighjacket. Sure, experienced GMs may not need it (it IS basically the same thing as before, but more codified), but if you've never mastered before it may help.

"Ask your players what they want to be doing. Being sneaky? They have to go a bit slower and can roll Stealth for Initiative. They want to go extra fast? They'll get tired sooner. They are on alert? They get to start weapon in hand and shield up. Looking for magic? Walk slowly and go full radar with Detect Magic. They are trying to walk with a high level spell constanly going and f##!ing up your perfectly good encounters? Tell them they are getting tired. Remember, in the end is up to you, use your judgement!"*

Is this what they intended? If it was, was it well expressed? I don't know, but this is how I read it, and maybe the reason it's not working for you is that it's being applied a touch too rigidly.

*Please note I don't have the book with me right now.

Edit: I'll agree that the examples are kinda bad. My guess is that two people wrote that and didn't proofread as well as they ought to.

[AnimatedPaper]

I had such high hopes for exploration mode too. I wanted it structured more like the 4e skill challenges. In that context, breaking these down to specific tactics and getting specific kinds of "hits" each round (you ARE investigating and searching at the same time, but this round you want a information reward, and next round you want to know whether or not the room has any secret doors or traps) might make some sense. Tying it to initiative seems less ideal.

[sherlock1701]

eddv wrote:

engage in...social combats

I find this phrasing amusing. Does winning initiative here mean you quickly speak before your opponent can?

My problem is, given that they want to integrate this much like a normal combat, there are no clear rules spelled out for social "combat". There are rules on how to use skills, but if I used only the skill rules for regular combat it would be sorely lacking. If they want that to be a specific thing, it ought to be codified like real combat. Actions, spell rules, a specific "encounter mode" etc. so it can be conducted properly.

[sherlock1701]

DerNils wrote:

I do like the intent, which seems to be everybody has a specific role during Exploration mode. A bit like the ship battle in starfinder, it gives all Party members something to do instead of the Ranger doing all the scouting, tracking and perception roles.

It's just that currently, there are very few useful or interesting tactics, some are gated behind a bizarre 10 minutes Maximum Duration and they are woefully unclear.

My new favourite - is Defending is the only tactic enabling you to have your weapon drawn when an Encounter starts?

Defending
You move at half your travel Speed with your weapon
out and shield raised. If combat breaks out, you gain the
benefits of Raising a Shield before your first turn begins.

As this is the only tactic mentioning this, it seems so. So no sneaking with Dagger drawn, friend Rogue.

Hey, the other ones don't say you can't have your weapon and shield out.

[Ryan Blomquist]

I also found Exploration mode really jarring, and was further thrown into the, "These tasks are exclusive tasks," stance by Rose Street Revenge:

Rose Street Revenge, pg. 14 wrote:

In less strenuous situations (exploration mode), a PC needs to use the searching tactic or detecting magic tactic to uncover hazards.(“When I’m walking like this, I’m always looking. It takes effort unless you get really good at it. Some dragonbloods can sense magic and magic traps, but that also takes effort. You want to focus on sneaking? Hiding behind shields? Life’s full of choices, and my choice is to look for traps and stay alive.”)

The bolding (added by me) implied to me that the tactics were at least mutually exclusive, if not exhaustive. That had a distinctly deleterious effect on later tables of Rose Street, as well as my table of Doomsday Dawn*. If they're not meant to be, the section is at best confusing and the language needs to be revisited to make clear that tactics are not mutually exclusive. If they are, it creates a very strange situation where the abstracted rules either ruin scouting attempts or make positioning within the dungeon when Encounter Mode begins utterly divorced from the positioning that would be required to achieve what's being modeled in Exploration Mode. This feels like a section that doesn't need to exist in order for the game to function, and its word count could be reallocated to explaining how to move from exploration to encounters.

* - unrelated note, thanks to the OP for the exhaustive feedback in your Doomsday Dawn campaign journal. It's providing me a good template for when my group gets through with each chapter of Doomsday Dawn, and reminded me to note additional details that I typically ignore while GMing.

[Colette Brunel]

I would like to refer this thread to my first group's run of In Pale Mountain's Shadow, wherein I ran into various janky oddities concerning exploration tactics, the transition into encounter mode, and Perception vs. Stealth.

There were multiple times wherein members of the party were in Searching mode and should have been able to Seek hidden enemies... but all that did was trigger the usual Perception vs. Stealth initiative roll regardless, meaning that the Searching tactic accomplished absolutely nothing. I really did not know any other way to handle this.

How have other GMs been trying to rationalize the rules for exploration tactics, the transition into encounter mode, and Perception vs. Stealth? I have been struggling. Has anyone else been scratching their heads over this?

[GM OfAnything]

Colette Brunel wrote:

I would like to refer this thread to my first group's run of In Pale Mountain's Shadow, wherein I ran into various janky oddities concerning exploration tactics, the transition into encounter mode, and Perception vs. Stealth.

There were multiple times wherein members of the party were in Searching mode and should have been able to Seek hidden enemies... but all that did was trigger the usual Perception vs. Stealth initiative roll regardless, meaning that the Searching tactic accomplished absolutely nothing. I really did not know any other way to handle this.

How have other GMs been trying to rationalize the rules for exploration tactics, the transition into encounter mode, and Perception vs. Stealth? I have been struggling. Has anyone else been scratching their heads over this?

Isn't the Searching tactic described as looking for traps/ secret doors, not enemies? The Defending tactic is for anticipating ambushes...

[DerNils]

For me it is clear by now that at the minimum, Sneaking is supposed to be exclusive. The created no less than 2 feats for it to geht around that.

TRAP FINDER FEAT 1
You have an intuitive sense that alerts you to the dangers and presence of
traps. You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to Perception checks to find traps, to AC against
attacks made by traps, and to saves against traps. Even if you aren’t searching, you still
get a check to find traps if you are trained or better in Stealth. You can disable traps as
though you had a proficiency rank of master in Thievery; if your proficiency modifier in
Thievery is actually master, this increases to legendary instead.

LEGENDARY SNEAK FEAT 15
Prerequisites legendary in Stealth, Swift Sneak
When you employ an exploration tactic other than
sneaking, you also gain the benefits of the sneaking tactic unless
you choose not to. See page 316 for more about exploration tactics.

[Bobson]

Tactic Problem #8: Why does detect magic get an exception to spellcasting being fatiguing? Why not all cantrips? Why can you repeatedly cast this one spell, but not concentrate on something like dancing lights, which only provides light until you stop concentrating? Why can you not use sigil to mark your trail, or continually cast guidance on the person watching for traps? All three have the exact same actions required as detect magic, so there's no logical reason to be able to cast one of them repeatedly but not the others.

Obviously, this is to make the "I walk around looking for magic" tactic viable, but it doesn't make sense for the spell to be an exception by itself.

[shroudb]

Some things I keep seeing people doing wrong with exploration tactics:

-Nowhere does it says you cannot combine them.

-Those are just examples of what you can do.

-Those are just a table for GMs to give them guidelines over what is fatiguing, what kind of bonuses for encounter mode an exploration tactic may give, speed, etc

-GMs having the players pick a tactic instead of assigning one themselves

-GMs only using the example tactics and trying to fit all the players are doing into those few examples.

[shroudb]

DerNils wrote:

For me it is clear by now that at the minimum, Sneaking is supposed to be exclusive. The created no less than 2 feats for it to geht around that.

TRAP FINDER FEAT 1
You have an intuitive sense that alerts you to the dangers and presence of
traps. You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to Perception checks to find traps, to AC against
attacks made by traps, and to saves against traps. Even if you aren’t searching, you still
get a check to find traps if you are trained or better in Stealth. You can disable traps as
though you had a proficiency rank of master in Thievery; if your proficiency modifier in
Thievery is actually master, this increases to legendary instead.

LEGENDARY SNEAK FEAT 15
Prerequisites legendary in Stealth, Swift Sneak
When you employ an exploration tactic other than
sneaking, you also gain the benefits of the sneaking tactic unless
you choose not to. See page 316 for more about exploration tactics.

You can sneak and search from level 1. It just drops you to 1/4 speed.

Legendary sneak allows you to do stuff like sneaking while casting detect maguc/spells
Sneaking while running
Sneaking while DOING WHATEVER other exploration you want.

To put it into perspective, legendary thievery allows you to steal full plates. Picking up legendary thievery doesn't help with normal pickpocketing.
Similarly, Legendary Sneak allows you to sneak when you're doing nonsneaky stuff. It doesn't help you do stuff you could do already (sneak+search) any better or any worse.

[DerNils]

Where do you get the idea that you can combine tactics? This is the description of encounter mode:

While you are traveling and exploring, tell the GM what
you’d generally like to do. The GM will determine which
exploration tactic applies and describe the result.

You get one tactic. It then goes on to give examples of tactics. There is no word at all about any kind of combined tactics or how it would impact your travel speed. What we do have is examples of feats that allow you to get the benefit of one tactic while using another. If that would have been possible before, there is no need for that feat at all.

But we can discuss until we get gray, I do hope we can agree that this needs clarification, because as written, this causes major confusion.

[shroudb]

DerNils wrote:

Where do you get the idea that you can combine tactics? This is the description of encounter mode:

While you are traveling and exploring, tell the GM what
you’d generally like to do. The GM will determine which
exploration tactic applies and describe the result.

You get one tactic. It then goes on to give examples of tactics. There is no word at all about any kind of combinded tactics or how it would impact your travel speed. What we do have is examples of feats that allow you to get the benefit of one tactic while using another. If that would have been possible before, there is no need for that feat at all.

But we can discuss until we get gray, I do hope we can agree that this needs clarification, because as written, this causes major confusion.

From the same exact place:

Your GM designs an exploration tactic based on what your character does.

If your character does "I sneak and search" your GM designs said tactic. And the handy examples below show tgat:
Sneak: not fatiguing, half speed
Search : not fatiguing, half speed

So, search+sneak: edit (using p. 329 table) fatiguing, 1/2 speed.

The tactics mentioned are EXAMPLES. They are NOT all you can do. There is not a single mention that you cannot do more complex things than what's listed.

That's exactly the reason why tactics are a GM TOOL and not a player action.

[DerNils]

To reiterate an example I made earlier:
"I silently move along the tunnel, on the lookout for anything strange, my weapon and shield at the ready. Every few steps, I cast detect Magic to make sure I do not miss any magical traps."
Pick my tactic for me. And if you would like to combine all 5, tell me why I should care about any of the abovementioned feats. Or tactics at all.

And sorry, tactics are in the "Playing the Game" chapter, including all of the examples. This is for the Players to know what will happen if they declare actions.
And none of your Interpretation is anywhere in the rules, neither here nor in the GM chapter that clarifies some of the tactics.

The GM choosing the tactic from what players are describing is:
a) error prone
b) takes power from the players

[shroudb]

DerNils wrote:

To reiterate an example I made earlier:

"I silently move along the tunnel, on the lookout for anything strange, my weapon and shield at the ready. Every few steps, I cast detect Magic to make sure I do not miss any magical traps."
Pick my tactic for me. And if you would like to combine all 5, tell me why I should care about any of the abovementioned feats. Or tactics at all.

And sorry, tactics are in the "Playing the Game" chapter, including all of the examples. This is for the Players to know what will happen if they declare actions.
And none of your Interpretation is anywhere in the rules, neither here nor in the GM chapter that clarifies some of the tactics.

The GM choosing the tactic from what players are describing is:
a) error prone
b) takes power from the players

P. 329

Explains that:
Doing 1 action /round is non fatiguing (sneaking, searching, etc)
Doing 2 actiins/round is fatiguing (hustle is double stride)
Doing more actions IS possible, with GM discretion, but also may fatigue someone very fast.
Doing 15 actions per round, is impossible.

Your own stated action would be, if I was GMing :
Weapons out, no action, also no bonus like raised shield 1st round
Sneak+search, 2 actions, so fatiguing
Detect magic every 2nd action would mean you would have to stop the sneak action for that round, so 1/2 movement over what you were already (1/4th total)

You could do so for 10mins.

OR

Sneak+search+detect, fatigue in 1 minute.

[DerNils]

As a Player, I would be seriously annoyed that this does not count as shield raised.
Why do I not get investigate? I am looking around, shouldn't I notice the Abyssal writing on the wall?

Thank you for pointing out the Guidelines, I overlooked the link with the Action economy. That makes clearer how they came up with them - I just do not think they make a lot of sense. To any reasonable party with no time Limit (e.g. Doomsday Dawn part 1) this leads to 10 minutes increments of progressing, interrupted by 10 minutes waiting in a room, progressing again. A needlessly annoying rythm that takes Players out of the game, just in order to not get punished for having the wrong tactics online.

[shroudb]

DerNils wrote:

As a Player, I would be seriously annoyed that this does not count as shield raised.

Why do I not get investigate? I am looking around, shouldn't I notice the Abyssal writing on the wall?

Thank you for pointing out the Guidelines, I overlooked the link with the Action economy. That makes clearer how they came up with them - I just do not think they make a lot of sense. To any reasonable party with no time Limit (e.g. Doomsday Dawn part 1) this leads to 10 minutes increments of progressing, interrupted by 10 minutes waiting in a room, progressing again. A needlessly annoying rythm that takes Players out of the game, just in order to not get punished for having the wrong tactics online.

Despite you being annoyed or not, I would always rule that having a shield raised right in front of you to block incoming fire (that's why you don't need to "raise a shield") would seriously impact your perception capabilities.

As for investigating, you may look at the weird writing, and you'll certainly notice it. It's just that you either take the time to think if you remember something about it, or you don't.

Remember, that encounter mode is basically going all out, exerting yourself over what you can sustain (3 actions/round) while exploration mode is what you can sustain over a long period of time (1 action/round)

So, sure, you can search, sneak, keep a shield raised, ponder on what stuff means, take a piss.

But it'll take TIME.

[DerNils]

I wonder if that is our main point of disagreement. If the only thing that is impacted here is time, I fail to see how this is a limiting factor in 90% of adventures.
And fatiguing is nothing but another time factor, as it imposes regular breaks. No one in their right mind will enter an Encounter with the crippling Fatigued condition.
That is what Colette, the OP, means with janky. What is the benefit of limiting the Basic dungeon crawling activities into a set of tactics, resulting in Fighter raises shield, Ranger searches, Thief sneaks, Wizard investigates. So that only one Player gets to roll for perception? What is the design goal here?

[shroudb]

DerNils wrote:

I wonder if that is our main point of disagreement. If the only thing that is impacted here is time, I fail to see how this is a limiting factor in 90% of adventures.

And fatiguing is nothing but another time factor, as it imposes regular breaks. No one in their right mind will enter an Encounter with the crippling Fatigued condition.
That is what Colette, the OP, means with janky. What is the benefit of limiting the Basic dungeon crawling activities into a set of tactics, resulting in Fighter raises shield, Ranger searches, Thief sneaks, Wizard investigates. So that only one Player gets to roll for perception? What is the design goal here?

The design intent, as far as I see it, is making stuff realistic.

A human can walk, not run, WALK, 75feet in 6 seconds in encounter mode.

That's far from realistic, that's a typical farmer in golarion walking at 8.5 miles per hour for 8+ hours

Plus, it allows the GM to have access to a very handy table to actually put the words of the party into mechanics.

The thing that I would change, is a complete removal of said section from the Player portion of crb, and put it strictly in the GM section.

Most misunderstandings and faulty usage by players (and GMs) of exploration mode is only reading the player section and ignoring the actual rules which are in the GM section.

[Colette Brunel]

shroudb wrote:

Most misunderstandings and faulty usage by players (and GMs) of exploration mode is only reading the player section and ignoring the actual rules which are in the GM section.

I have been referencing both sections and trying to parse them. It has not been helping.

The jankiness of exploration tactics is especially apparent when players realize just how clunky exploration mode is, and when they skip straight from describing their characters' activities to directly declaring an exploration tactic, just to make it crystal-clear to the GM what they are doing. It is only sensible, lest they say "My character investigates the room" only for the GM to suddenly roll Recall Knowledge for the middling-Intelligence character and wind up with a critical failure, because "Investigating" and "Searching" have distressingly similar names.

[Reticent]

I would be surprised if many GMs actually used these rules over their own narrative agency when it comes to "exploration mode" (really video game-y term btw).

[shroudb]

Colette Brunel wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Most misunderstandings and faulty usage by players (and GMs) of exploration mode is only reading the player section and ignoring the actual rules which are in the GM section.

I have been referencing both sections and trying to parse them. It has not been helping.

The jankiness of exploration tactics is especially apparent when players realize just how clunky exploration mode is, and when they skip straight from describing their characters' activities to directly declaring an exploration tactic, just to make it crystal-clear to the GM what they are doing. It is only sensible, lest they say "My character investigates the room" only for the GM to suddenly roll Recall Knowledge for the middling-Intelligence character and wind up with a critical failure, because "Investigating" and "Searching" have distressingly similar names.

Personally it has sped up our group doing stuff outside of combat.

Truth is I do have to make up a lot of tactics, but if you keep in your head the fast rule of 1action/round not fatiguing, 2actions/round fatiguing, 3actions very fast fatigue, it goes more smoothly than without any rules at all.

Some stuff require some parsing (like Detect magic actually making sense not being fatiguing when you realise that the static speed it gives means 1cast/2 rounds, so 1 action/round)

But in general, I think as a GM Tool (and not a player one) it has actually made my rulings much more efficient and fast.

[Tursic]

I took the tactics listed to be a base line for me the GM to use. If you are using minute you can take two actions on average a round and not have a problem as long as only one is energy intensive. (stride, maintaining a spell, or other such actions)

What is searching in round action terms? One stride action, seek action left. Next round seek action forward, seek action right. Over a minute the character is moving at half speed, and covering the area. If you are moving faster than 100ft there are going to be some blind spots in your search. Exploration mode is just to make this simpler.

Have weapons out does not take up an action, on the other hand having your shield up ready to block an attack does. If you have a shield in one hand and a weapon in the other you do not have a free hand if needed.

Sneaking slows you down, to about half speed. Using the search and turning the stride into a sneak takes you down to 1/4th your speed. If your normal speed is 40 that means you are traveling at 100ft a minute. The party will be traveling at the speed of the slowest member. So a speedy elf with a speed of 40 could stealth and search at the same time and keep up with the dwarf fighter with a speed of 20 that is going at half speed to have their shield at the ready. A gnome with a speed of 20 could do so but would low the party down to 50ft per minute or 1/2 mile per hour.

If the wizard wants to keep a spell up while traveling the party will need to cycle. Travel 5 minute, rest 5 minute. This cuts your travel speed in half.

If the next town is 20 miles that is a one day journey for a character with a speed of 25. If you use a complex tactic it is going to slow you down. Turning a one day trip into a 2 or 4 day trip. That means needing supplies, setting up camp and the risk that comes with that. If the party is on a time table they may not be able to use a complex tactic or any tactics at all.

[rainzax]

Idea.

What if Proficiency in a Tactic's skill impacted to what extent it could be combined with other actions?

For example: Legendary can always combine with anything, Untrained and Trained cannot be combined, and Expert and Master can combine with other Expert and Master by excepting penalties (perhaps -2 each) to both?

Something like that...

[Subutai1]

rainzax wrote:

Idea.

What if Proficiency in a Tactic's skill impacted to what extent it could be combined with other actions?

For example: Legendary can always combine with anything, Untrained and Trained cannot be combined, and Expert and Master can combine with other Expert and Master by excepting penalties (perhaps -2 each) to both?

Something like that...

This would make something that is supposed to be intuitive and quickly done, tedious and unnecessarily more complicated than it already is.

[DerNils]

ShroudB, that's actually interesting. What Kind of rulings did you do with that? That is what I am really looking for, because I have basically abandoned it in my mind for dungeons already. There is no really useful place for it there.
People are starting and stopping every 2-3 minutes anyway. It still has given me zero Guideline on how long it takes to search a room, at what range I detect traps, when I start Encounters, etc.

But in overland travel, how often is it interesting what Kind of tactics People use? I am looking at part 2 of the playtest and already struggle where it is interesting.

[Cantriped]

I am actually fairly happy with exploration mode in general. I think it is a vast improvement over the lack of a functional alternative in the previous systems I've run. I like the abstractness of it, yet how its guidelines provide clear basis for adjudication. However there are some specific problems with the current rules. My two major complaints are as follows:

First, that you become fatigued after only 10 minutes (or 2 minutes if the tactic was 'very fatiguing'). Which is also the suggested increment of time for a tactic's duration, as well as how long it takes to repair a shield, or recover a shield. I think the limits should be raised to 30 minutes for fatiguing tactics, and 5 minutes for very fatiguing tactics respectively.

Second, that being fatigued limits you to just wandering, effectively rendering you useless in and out of combat. Poorly adjudicated, it systemizes the "15-minute adventuring day" in the worst way. Having to game the system to avoid fatigue just to function as an entity in the world produces nonsensical results with no objective benefit for the GM. The penalties for being fatigued are already bad enough for the players, I assure you. I think that if a character is willing to fatigue themselves (and risk entering every encounter thereafter with the significant penalties that imposes), they should be allowed to do so in order to perform a forced march (aka hustle for 8 hours straight) or maintain Dancing Lights while someone else is Searching an area, or any of a number of less generic fatiguing tactics the GM might have to invent.

[shroudb]

DerNils wrote:

ShroudB, that's actually interesting. What Kind of rulings did you do with that? That is what I am really looking for, because I have basically abandoned it in my mind for dungeons already. There is no really useful place for it there.

People are starting and stopping every 2-3 minutes anyway. It still has given me zero Guideline on how long it takes to search a room, at what range I detect traps, when I start Encounters, etc.

But in overland travel, how often is it interesting what Kind of tactics People use? I am looking at part 2 of the playtest and already struggle where it is interesting.

For starters we use it when we expect more than 5mins of activities.

Going through the forest, exploring caves, city actions, etc

Not when going from room to room in a Dungeon.

Then as above, I keep the guideline of "1action OK, 2 fatigue, 3 fast fatigue" and try to figure the correct combination of actions for my player's goals. That part is the same as before the "exploration mode rules". The rules are just easier to follow to make the numbers for the stated actions.

As an example, last session, our rogue was shadowing an npc. The npc himself was trying to disappear in the streets /crowd.

I ruled that as a double action of seek+sneak. But because our rogue had both quick sneak and higher movement compared to the target, he actually had to "sneak" only 1 action for every 2 actions of the target, so overall not fatiguing to keep up.

In almost all of our Dungeon delves, our group has found a rhythm* of keeping the rogue sneaking and searching, while the wizard keeps the magic detection and our paladin was keeping guard. They often explore small sections and take breaks "to catch their breath", but it gives everyone something to do rather than exploration being a rogue only thing. (*it's important to note that there are a lot of actions, when if you just slow down, you can reduce them to nonfatiguing)

Yesterday it allowed me to make a rule when my players wanted to keep moving with ready attacks (they can, but only for 2mins). If they had accepted to go at half speed, they could go for 10mins instead.

Etc

As an added bonus, it makes underground exploration more realistic and fun when you start making short pit stops, with sentries and etc, rather than going full throttle and finishing it in one breath.

Edit :

What I would add to the system though, is Con checks to stave off fatigue for a very short amount of time (like for 5mins once)

[DerNils]

OK, I see your Point. I am just afraid that this is regulating stuff that is either not worth regulating or lead to annoying discussions and honestly way more calculations then before for me as a GM.

I like your rogue example - but would that have meant that if they had the same Speed, the rogue had a Maximum of 10 minutes of shadowing before being fatigued and therefore completely unable to continue? This is one of those examples where I feel the System is actually restraining something that has no Need to be restrained.

And for the dungeon dwelling - again, those are pretty standard tactics that need no ruling in my book. And I understand that you feel it is more realistic to have regular breaks, but every 10 minutes. I mean, you can handwave it, but then, what did you get from the System?

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to explaining this to me. It's always great to understand a differing Point of view.

[shroudb]

DerNils wrote:

OK, I see your Point. I am just afraid that this is regulating stuff that is either not worth regulating or lead to annoying discussions and honestly way more calculations then before for me as a GM.

I like your rogue example - but would that have meant that if they had the same Speed, the rogue had a Maximum of 10 minutes of shadowing before being fatigued and therefore completely unable to continue? This is one of those examples where I feel the System is actually restraining something that has no Need to be restrained.

And for the dungeon dwelling - again, those are pretty standard tactics that need no ruling in my book. And I understand that you feel it is more realistic to have regular breaks, but every 10 minutes. I mean, you can handwave it, but then, what did you get from the System?

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to explaining this to me. It's always great to understand a differing Point of view.

The shadowing example was actually not good.

This is because our rogue assumed that the target was keeping an eye out for the party, which he wasn't due to a very good previous deception roll.

So, IF the target was keeping an eye out, (seek alongside his sneak) his speed would be even lower, allowing "normal" shadowing even without the rogue having quick sneak.

[Colette Brunel]

The mess that is exploration tactics (and social tactics) thickens. According to page 329 of the playtest rulebook:

Quote:

To determine which tactic applies, use the following guidelines. A tactic like wandering or sneaking, which doesn’t cause fatigue, consists of a single action repeated roughly 10 times per minute (such as sneaking using Sneak 10 times) or an alternation of actions that works out similarly (such as searching’s alternation of Stride and Seek).

A fatiguing tactic, such as hustling, causes fatigue after 10 minutes. A fatiguing tactic is typically composed of actions at a quicker pace, such that the character takes roughly 20 actions per minute (for hustling, that’s 20 Stride actions). Any tactic involving spellcasting causes fatigue after 10 minutes even if it doesn’t take as many actions. Someone who’s Concentrating on a Spell but not moving still gets fatigued.

If you lack both the Ride feat and an animal companion mount, you must Handle an Animal (at an unlisted DC) and then Command an Animal in order to get a mount to move. That takes two actions each round, making it a fatiguing tactic. You will be fatigued after 10 minutes.

As per page 322:

Quote:

If you’re fatigued in exploration mode, you can’t choose any tactic other than wandering.

The moment someone with neither the Ride feat nor an animal companion mount spends 10 minutes riding a mount, they immediately become fatigued, and they lose the stamina with which to continue their riding.

How are entire parties supposed to travel upon, say, horses or camels?

Another funny thing here is:

Quote:

Sometimes the group might stop a fatiguing tactic before getting fatigued, then resume the fatiguing tactic. You can reset the 10-minute timer for fatigue’s onset if the group spent a reasonable amount of time on less strenuous activities. As a rule of thumb, the characters should spend about as much time on non-fatiguing tactics as they did on the fatiguing tactic for the timer to reset.

However, suppose you do hit 10 minutes of untrained riding, and you become fatigued. For how long must you rest?

Quote:

You recover from fatigue with a full night’s rest (8 hours).

8 hours. Because we all know that after some strenuous physical activity (other than life-or-death combat, mysteriously), it takes a full eight hours to recover from the exertion.

[shroudb]

I don't think it's a stretch to say that's fatiguing to ride a horse (at its normal speed and not slower) if you don't know how to ride. It IS a really strenuous activity.

You can always ride it in half its speed without any problems (2 actions every 2 rounds is nonfatiguing)

Also, no need for both AC and Ride, either one of them is enough by itself.

I really have problems seeing why people have trouble with the system.

I do think that a shorter rest, like 1h should be enough to clear fatigue though, I fully agree on that.

[Colette Brunel]

shroudb wrote:

I don't think it's a stretch to say that's fatiguing to ride a horse (at its normal speed and not slower) if you don't know how to ride. It IS a really strenuous activity.

For 10 minutes? Really?

shroudb wrote:

You can always ride it in half its speed without any problems (2 actions every 2 rounds is nonfatiguing)

Then that is no faster than walking.

shroudb wrote:

Also, no need for both AC and Ride, either one of them is enough by itself.

Hence why I say if you lack both Ride and an animal companion.

To expound on the matter of fatigue:

Quote:

You might find that a player wants to do something equivalent to spending 3 actions every 6 seconds, just like she would in combat. This is possible in combat only because combat lasts such a short time, and is not sustainable over the longer time frame of exploration. If someone tries to do this in exploration, it’s best to say no. If pressed, have the tactic cause fatigue after 2 minutes.

An unarmored human (unarmored, because most medium armor imposes -5 speed, and heavy armor slaps on -10 speed) has speed 25 feet. Such a human can spend three actions per round to move 75 feet per round. That is 750 feet per minute, or 8.52 miles per hour, a decent run.

If an unarmored human spend 2 minutes moving 1,500 feet, at roughly 8.52 miles per hour, they are fatigued afterwards. They are not just winded; they are so fatigued that only 8 full hours of rest will be sufficient for recovery.

Deadly combat, on the other hand, is apparently far less strenuous.

[DerNils]

Fatigue can actually be avoided as shroudb mentions, but I do feel this is overcomplicating activities instead of helping.

As for riding, Colette has it right - Handle an animal is needed in order to actually command it. Every single turn. So it is a fatiguing activity. And we are talking about a Walking horse here, not a gallop or anything like it.
If that is realistic or not, well, in gameplay Terms it is beyond annoying to force People to invest in the Ride Feat to not automatically be fatigued at the end of every journey day OR be as fast as if they are Walking. Which is somehow less fatiguing than sitting on a Walking horse.

And while this System "works", it solves problems nobody I ever encountered had and makes everyday adventuring activities slow, boring, or impossible.
Going back to your shadowing example, it never works out without feats. Either the target is sneaking, the Follower is sneaking and seeking - 1/4 Speed, fatiguing, and you cannot Keep pace. Or the target just walks along, you follow with sneak, you lose him because he walks double your Speed. I Keep coming back to the Realisation that this Limits Things that never needed limiting/adjucation.

I could maybe get on board if fatigued wasn't so cripplingly dangerous. They Need to get a different condition - this should not be the same Thing the barbarian uses in order to Balance his rage. Maybe the Exploration fatigue is something like -1 to AC and hampered 5, period.