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House ruling back BAB?? I've heard madness in my time, but this... this takes the crown.
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I mostly looked at the Alchemist and the Alchemy section thus far, so my thoughts will center around that. I've been taking notes and stuff too.
Class Table - I never knew I hated the old class tables so much until I saw the Alchemist table, and I spent hours trying to format one of the dang things for a homebrew document I've been typing up. It's a little jarring, but the change is one I welcome wholeheartedly.
Alchemy - There aren't many bombs listed, but there are a number of Class Feats that grant access to new bombs and Additives that add effects to bombs you create too. Elixirs look generally situational with a few all-around useful ones like Elixir of Life and Darkvision Elixir. Mutagens vary from very potent (Beastial) to useful (Quicksilver) to those of questionable use (Silvertongue), but seem generally worth the drawbacks they give. I'm a little confused on Bullheaded Mutagen, as I'm not sure if the RP you lose when drinking it stays lost or if it is restored once the duration ends. Poisons have a decent amount of feat support, and I bet an Alchemist / MC Rogue could do some nifty things with them.
Resonance - We all thought there could potentially be Resonance issues with this class, but it looks like there are a number of safeguards in place. First, you can craft Batches of 2 identical items for 1RP, so you should have multiples of everything you craft. We knew about +INT to RP, but (iirc) we didn't know about Expanded Resonance giving free uses of Quick Alchemy daily, which gives them more longevity than previously expected. Of the alchemical items you can craft, only Elixirs and Mutagens cost RP to use, and thanks to the Infused trait the Alchemist can make use of their own items without spending extra RP. This looks pretty solid.
Will post more later when I get back from the library - our printer is down and dang it, I want character sheets!
Really? I'm having a bit of the opposite reaction.
Class Table - I don't like any of them to be honest. They don't seem that different from PF1 though so I can't hate them. Just there.
Alchemy - We get 4-5 bombs as items. We get 5 bombs from feats, though this number is higher depending on if you classify Far Bomb and Precise bombs as different bombs. That and I count the whole Debiliting bomb as 1 feat for the same of "Different bombs". The bomb selection seems pretty meh even if we look back at PF1 and remove the elemental bombs. Gonna have to wait on that(And wait till level 6 to actually be a Bomber. Or Mutagen)
Speaking of Mutagen, Not a fan of having to wait to not only level 5 to actually use them as class(Oh but I can buy them, yeah sure thanks game), but also level 6 to not have Normal and Greater Mutagens take a minute to kick in. Also Also, end of your next turn? Why?
Also I only counted 2 Poison feats for Alchemist. Maybe Rogue has more or the fact I'm not used to picturing them as "Alchemical" so my mind doesn't process what feats will effect it.
Resonance - Still don't like it as a system but at least Alchemist isn't dumpstered due to it. Wonder how the Dedication Alchemist will work later as I can see a lot of people wanting Int bonus Resonance.
The issue with Quick Alchemy is that it only helps at level 9(Which thank god if we didn't have ways to have a pool for all the bombs we could be chucking at level 10 or higher), and only for that turn. So that's usually going to be Bombs or Mutagen. Maybe poison. But I can't see any elixirs getting made up with that(Which speaking of, the elixirs themselves run the line of okay to why would I ever make this more than once?)
All and all, not happy. I'll see what numbers might be changed but more worried about how badly Alchemist is tied to actual item use going forward.
At the very least Poison don't look to be GM use only. Till we see how many enemies are immune to it/high fort.
I mostly looked at the Alchemist and the Alchemy section thus far, so my thoughts will center around that. I've been taking notes and stuff too.
Class Table - I never knew I hated the old class tables so much until I saw the Alchemist table, and I spent hours trying to format one of the dang things for a homebrew document I've been typing up. It's a little jarring, but the change is one I welcome wholeheartedly.
Alchemy - There aren't many bombs listed, but there are a number of Class Feats that grant access to new bombs and Additives that add effects to bombs you create too. Elixirs look generally situational with a few all-around useful ones like Elixir of Life and Darkvision Elixir. Mutagens vary from very potent (Beastial) to useful (Quicksilver) to those of questionable use (Silvertongue), but seem generally worth the drawbacks they give. I'm a little confused on Bullheaded Mutagen, as I'm not sure if the RP you lose when drinking it stays lost or if it is restored once the duration ends. Poisons have a decent amount of feat support, and I bet an Alchemist / MC Rogue could do some nifty things with them.
Resonance - We all thought there could potentially be Resonance issues with this class, but it looks like there are a number of safeguards in place. First, you can craft Batches of 2 identical items for 1RP, so you should have multiples of everything you craft. We knew about +INT to RP, but (iirc) we didn't know about Expanded Resonance giving free uses of Quick Alchemy daily, which gives them more longevity than previously expected. Of the alchemical items you can craft, only Elixirs and Mutagens cost RP to use, and thanks to the Infused trait the Alchemist can make use of their own items without spending extra RP. This looks pretty solid.
Will post more later when I get back from the library - our printer is down and dang it, I want character sheets!
Really? I'm having a bit of the opposite reaction.
Class Table - I don't like any of them to be honest. They don't seem that different from PF1 though so I can't hate them. Just there.
The main difference is the lack of the columns listing BAB and Saves, which added four columns to any class table off the bat even though they could have easily been listed as "Low BAB, Medium BAB, High BAB" and "Good Saves - X, Bad Saves - X" outside the table. Their addition meant that formatting homebrew classes was that much more difficult, which is why I'm glad to see them go.
Alchemy - We get 4-5 bombs as items. We get 5 bombs from feats, though this number is higher depending on if you classify Far Bomb and Precise bombs as different bombs. That and I count the whole Debiliting bomb as 1 feat for the same of "Different bombs". The bomb selection seems pretty meh even if we look back at PF1 and remove the elemental bombs. Gonna have to wait on that(And wait till level 6 to actually be a Bomber. Or Mutagen)
By my count there are 6 Bombs you can craft (Acid Flask, Alchemist's Fire, Bottled Lightning, Liquid Ice, Tanglefoot Bag, Thunderstone) and a number of Additives (Smoke Bomb, Debilitating Bomb, and Sticky Bomb) that can be added to any bomb. Then there's the Improved and Greater Debilitating Bomb feats and the Delayed Bomb. The interesting thing about the Alchemist's bomb choices is they can combine any additive with any bomb to create a unique combination, such as a Thunderstone Smoke Bomb that can deafen enemies and leave them in a cloud of smoke or the Tanglefoot Debilitating Bomb to inflict Entangled and another condition. While the list of bombs is small, the additives allow for a large number of options that the PF1 Alchemist couldn't dream of matching on release.
Speaking of Mutagen, Not a fan of having to wait to not only level 5 to actually use them as class(Oh but I can buy them, yeah sure thanks game), but also level 6 to not have Normal and Greater Mutagens take a minute to kick in. Also Also, end of your next turn? Why?
I didn't notice the onset time at first, but yeah, that part does hurt. Even so, you can't actually use the Normal or Greater mutagens until Level 9 at the earliest, so you really just have one level where any mutagens are delayed significantly. The delay is annoying, though, I'll give you that.
Also I only counted 2 Poison feats for Alchemist. Maybe Rogue has more or the fact I'm not used to picturing them as "Alchemical" so my mind doesn't process what feats will effect it.
I haven't gotten to the Rogue yet, but I already know they have some poison-related feats. From the Alchemist, Powerful Alchemy allows you to craft lower-level poisons on the fly that are still relevant, Potent Poisoner helps with poisons you craft in the morning, and Poison Touch gives an alternate application that's easier to hit with. It isn't much feat support, though. Maybe Skill Feats have more? I haven't gotten there yet.
Resonance - Still don't like it as a system but at least Alchemist isn't dumpstered due to it. Wonder how the Dedication Alchemist will work later as I can see a lot of people wanting Int bonus Resonance.
I think Resonance is something that will be either made or broken by playtesting. If people find that it's too limiting there will likely be changes, but while I build my test alchemist I never felt like I was running too low.
The issue with Quick Alchemy is that it only helps at level 9(Which thank god if we didn't have ways to have a pool for all the bombs we could be chucking at level 10 or higher), and only for that turn. So that's usually going to be Bombs or Mutagen. Maybe poison. But I can't see any elixirs getting made up with that(Which speaking of, the elixirs themselves run the line of okay to why would I ever make this more than once?)
Some of the elixirs are clearly superior to others (Elixir of Life, Darkvision Elixir, and Sea Touch Elixir all look pretty handy), that's certain. But Quick Alchemy is clearly a very useful option, allowing the Alchemist to forgo preparing the most circumstantial alchemical items in the morning. Remember that all items you craft have the Infused trait, so you only spend the RP to make them, not to consume them - it's like having spontaneous access to your entire formula list.
All and all, not happy. I'll see what numbers might be changed but more worried about how badly Alchemist is tied to actual item use going forward.
At the very least Poison don't look to be GM use only. Till we see how many enemies are immune to it/high fort.
The thing about Poison that I noticed is that Injury poisons are the only ones with significant options early on. Contact Poisons don't become available until Level 7, Ingested poisons are available at Level 1-2 and 9-18, and Inhaled poisons are only available starting at Level 15 (and then only for a couple levels). And even Injury poisons stop turning up past Level 13. There are some significant dead levels in the poison list that make it much harder to focus on, which is why the Powerful Alchemy feat is so useful. That said, Injury poisons take a lot of actions to apply, and Quick Alchemy items only last a round (two, tops), so that's hard to pull off later on. This is one area I think should be given a fine-toothed comb.
+1 weapon people... +1 weapon...
didnt anyone else noticed how magic weapon works? Really... not to diminish anyone complains, but they look to less impactful in the game than how magic weapons works now... i am still in disbilief.
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I mean there's homebrewing for your friends and then homebrewing for actual 3rd party release. My own word docs for character sheets would probably make some people cry. So the table I feel is a tomato tomoto thing. I liked it but I also won't say someone's wrong for liking the new chart which just feels way to empty for me. Unsure how much more or little I'll have to double check stuff compared to PF1 charts.
About Bombs - Tangle Foot is a bomb now? That just strikes me as bloody odd but it seems like Bomb is just replacement for "Splash Weapon". That will be interesting to see later on(Cough Numeria greandes).
Also the combos are only possible because Bombs are items and not discoveries now. I wasn't there for Alchemist launch but I can't believe there weren't that few Admixtures compared to the Additives we have now.
Mutagen - It's one level before we get the feat but the fact we kinda need a feat to return to how it was irks me. And only for the best or worst Mutagen, as Normal and Greater kick in next turn. Also competes with 2 bombs(And or Archetypes? Have to double check when and how you get those)
Poisons - Yeah see, I couldn't process Powerful Alchemy as effecting Poisons. Haven't checked Rogue or general/skill feats but Poison was something they just kinda let die to a degree in PF1.
Resonance - We can agree to that.
Quick Alchemy - Make and consume for that turn. Time management is always a big thing for Alchemist so anything that lets us do stuff fast is great though we have to remember we can't sit on it most the time. At best we hold it for 2 turns. And this just seems to be a replacement for Boro Beads. More to the
More to the point, to me this just means I need to expect them putting out items in basically every book. And alchemical ones too. Any book with no mutagens sees possible loss of power for Mr Hyde alchemists. No bombs means no boost/options for Bomber. And if poisons just up and die again well...
We'll see how it turns out but looking over it, I liked PF1 Alchemist more.
+1 weapon people... +1 weapon...
didnt anyone else noticed how magic weapon works? Really... not to diminish anyone complains, but they look to less impactful in the game than how magic weapons works now... i am still in disbilief.
+1 weapon in Pathfinder Classic is +1 to hit/damage.
+1 weapon in Pathfinder Playtest is +1 to hit & +1 damage die.The playtest magic weapons are definitely the winners here.
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Identifying a spell being cast is now a feat.That seems...unfortunate.
It gets worse though, you have to spend a reaction to do so, and be trained in the skill relevant to the tradition (since spellcraft is gone).
Spellcasters nerfed into the ground, all spells nerfed as well, greatly shortened adventuring day. Using medicine to be the group healer was a blatant lie (referring to the "our barbarian was the healer!" story by a dev, barbarians themselves have zero healing powers), except when you stop adventuring after one encounter. So far my impressions are only negative, but of course I looked up the stuff which would be controversial to me first. Still, not good so far. :-/
Bards got boosted.
They got major boosts to spells.Shield, Chill touch, Disrupt undead, grasping tendrils (that negative damage that causes bleed spell no save), and so on.
Bards rock now (we can cast without needing a hand free if we sing: Sword and board bards FTW). Although, Colorspray got weakened and sleep usually just makes you drowsy unless fail badly.
Spellcasters nerfed into the ground, all spells nerfed as well, greatly shortened adventuring day. Using medicine to be the group healer was a blatant lie (referring to the "our barbarian was the healer!" story by a dev, barbarians themselves have zero healing powers), except when you stop adventuring after one encounter. So far my impressions are only negative, but of course I looked up the stuff which would be controversial to me first. Still, not good so far. :-/Bards got boosted.
They got major boosts to spells.
Shield, Chill touch, Disrupt undead, grasping tendrils (that negative damage that causes bleed spell no save), and so on.
Bards rock now (we can cast without needing a hand free if we sing: Sword and board bards FTW). Although, Colorspray got weakened and sleep usually just makes you drowsy unless fail badly.
Yeah, Bards got boosted in that they get level nine spells and can use instruments as their somatic components. That's really great and appreciated. I was of course talking more about Sorcerers, Wizards and Clerics, who already were nine level casters.
But spells have been made almost through the bank worse (with some exceptions like Magnificent Mansion). I find that one-two punch of less spells per day and worse spells to boot a bit hard to swallow.
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As I get a bit deeper into the rules, they seem more interesting overall. But still this feeling prevails that Paizo went all-out Blizzard in their development style, where any system which seemed fun and powerful seems to have been nerfed. Improved Initiative gives a +4 to initiative? Too powerful, only +1 now! Mirror Image gives 1d4+X images for 1 min/level? Too much fun, only 3 images for 1 minute now! Overland Fly let's you fly for 1 hour/level? Haha, too comfortable, 1 hour only now!
Coming from PF1E, it all seems like they went in with a super cautious approach, where any option which was good and fun to take now is only useful anymore, because balance rules over all other concerns. Maybe martials now have vastly improved capabilities, although from what I've seen so far they have been hit with the nerf bat in many places as well.
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I think the big issue clouding the system is that one of the design goals is to reduce the divergence or numbers between characters. Of course Improved Initiative is going to be reduced, because a +1 is supposed to mean more in PF2 than PF1. (Whether or not the math bears that out, we will see.) I haven’t had a chance to even look at the rules, but I hope to spend some time tonight preparing the playtest adventures and learning what has changed, so I have an informed opinion of it all.
And then you can't counterspell it, since you don't have a reaction left to do so.It gets worse though, you have to spend a reaction to do so, and be trained in the skill relevant to the tradition (since spellcraft is gone).Identifying a spell being cast is now a feat.That seems...unfortunate.
An alternative interpretation is that the GM informs you that a foe is casting a spell that you can Counterspell but not which one. You would then have to decide whether to attempt to Counterspell it without knowing exactly which spell it is. Of course, the player of a spellcaster character would need to be prepared to hand over his character sheet to the GM whenever a foe begins to cast a spell since otherwise the GM would have no idea whether the trigger for Counterspell has occurred.
If you needed to know exactly which spell was being cast before you could Counterspell it, then the Quick Recognition feat would effectively become a prerequisite for Counterspell, Counterspell would need to become a higher level feat, and the effective spell level of the Counterspell would need to be bumped up since it should work automatically if you have to jump through that many hoops to be able to do it.
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...I do like the new Totem/Anathema setup for the Barbarian albeit it feels off when it comes to the chaotic alignment they adhere too...Umm...
Barbarians are no longer restricted in alignment, i.e. Barbarians can be of ANY alignment, not just the chaotic (or non-lawful) ones.
So...Not really "off"??
Also, chaotic people have codes and anathemas too.
/points to Gorum.
Okay lets see my first impressions:
The Good:
-I really like the more modular class system.
-also many changes on how the classes can be focused and how they get their powers are cool
-The new action system seems nice and offers new tactical depth
-the weapon tags and critical effects make weapons more different and interesting
-the new multiclassing system doesn't punish one for multiclassing anymore and opens up a lot of before unworkable concepts
-the half ancestry feats open up a lot of possibilities now and even more in the future
-the new weapon and armor enchantment system is awesome
-autoscaling cantrips as backup is kinda cool
The Bad:
-way too many class gated feats - why not a combat feat table? No dual wield or power attack for rogues and clerics and other things like that suck
-weirdly unbalanced ancestries - the feats are partially worthless, partially situational, partially imba
-limited class possibilities - no ranged paladin, no strength rogue and other fun builds (that admittedly were not easy) are now impossible
-much redundancy - why has every single character listed in the class table when they get the general feats/class feats/attribute boosts? one table inbefore the classes could have neutralized that - I thought letter count was important
-the spellist, while in itself not bad, really should get icons, letters or other stuff to see which spell is on which spell list(s), makes browsing easier - also PLEASE seperate powers and spells
-while the base of the archetype system is cool the execution lacks a lot - 4 feats for adequate spellcasting till spell level 8? only a single d6 sneak attack? weak, both of it
- also why has the rogue thievery and not stealth as entry/signature skill? stealth makes way more sense
-i would have wished for at least 2 more archetypes which are not based on the old classes to see what they can possibly do, pirate and cavalier are both very specific and situational
-the nonmagical healing is still very limited - battle medic is mediocre at best as feat
-why does it take 3 times as long to become an expert caster then becoming a legendary one? i would have guessed the last one is more complicated - also its kind of boring that all spellcasting classes advance their spell prophiciency at the same rate
-cantrips are...not very wild
-slings and crossbows are again totally inferior to bows while longbow became total trash too - why volley? it makes no sense at all and feels really bad, if you want to give shorbow an advantage make it agile, that would have been cool
-throwing weapons suck even more then slings and crossbow since they need to be drawn AND cost a lot of money till you can enchant them
-who has the d4 fetish among the developers? i feel the need to kinkshame, as said in another thread - 20 out of 84 weapons with d4s, thats just too many
The ugly:
-Signature skills, you get between 2 and 10 and they are all written in stone. They are rather restrictive and I pity every wizard who wants to be anything then a overspecialized nerd
way to different in number and way to restrictve (except you are rogue)
-skillpoints gained: so...your intelligence is irrelevant beyond level 1 and you gain only a single skill upgrade every uneven level? more then 3 skills on legendary would be cool, well you cant even be master in more then a handful for most classes anyway...
-too much stuff in perception - it was one of the most rolled skills anyway, why put even more stuff into it?
-no possibility to upgrade your prophiciency in weapons or armor AT ALL - i would have at least expected a general feat for each to make one better
-most general feats are straightup boring - as said I would totally have expected armor or weapon prophiciency upgrades (and by now I also miss rapid reload, quick draw several others)
TL;DR:
The base in many things is good, workable, just the execution is...well, kind of wonky
but the skill system is waaaay to restrictive
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Okay lets see my first impressions:
The Good:
-I really like the more modular class system.
-also many changes on how the classes can be focused and how they get their powers are cool
-The new action system seems nice and offers new tactical depth
-the weapon tags and critical effects make weapons more different and interesting
-the new multiclassing system doesn't punish one for multiclassing anymore and opens up a lot of before unworkable concepts
-the half ancestry feats open up a lot of possibilities now and even more in the future
-the new weapon and armor enchantment system is awesome
-autoscaling cantrips as backup is kinda coolThe Bad:
-way too many class gated feats - why not a combat feat table? No dual wield or power attack for rogues and clerics and other things like that suck
-weirdly unbalanced ancestries - the feats are partially worthless, partially situational, partially imba
-limited class possibilities - no ranged paladin, no strength rogue and other fun builds (that admittedly were not easy) are now impossible
-much redundancy - why has every single character listed in the class table when they get the general feats/class feats/attribute boosts? one table inbefore the classes could have neutralized that - I thought letter count was important
-the spellist, while in itself not bad, really should get icons, letters or other stuff to see which spell is on which spell list(s), makes browsing easier - also PLEASE seperate powers and spells
-while the base of the archetype system is cool the execution lacks a lot - 4 feats for adequate spellcasting till spell level 8? only a single d6 sneak attack? weak, both of it
- also why has the rogue thievery and not stealth as entry/signature skill? stealth makes way more sense
-i would have wished for at least 2 more archetypes which are not based on the old classes to see what they can possibly do, pirate and cavalier are both very specific and situational
-the nonmagical healing is still very limited - battle medic is mediocre...
Good points! The more I read over the play test the more it feels like 4th D&D.
Ran a short game with some players and they seem more interested in staying with 5th D&D or Pathfinder 1E.
P.S.
My main players don't want to play the playtest, 2 month of anticipated waiting are crushed and my weekend ruined
while longbow became total trash too
Have you actually ran some numbers on this? I have heard the opposite.
Maybe I'm missing something, misinterpreting rules and text, or it's just not in the game yet, but I have concerns about crossbows.
I didn't see a Rapid Reload feature in the feats for crossbows. I didn't look through the Ranger class completely, but it saddens me to see that crossbows are seemingly being phased out of use. The Impossible Volley feat tree is cool, with Double and Triple Shot, but it only works with bows. I can count on one hand the number of feats that can be used with crossbows and, honestly, a couple of those are available at the same level, necessitating a choice that would radically alter the outcome at higher levels.
The way I see it, why have such a variety of melee weapons that are all roughly the same in terms of usefulness (one 1d6 weapon isn't necessarily better than another 1d6 weapon), but heavily lean toward bows over crossbows? I can understand not having repeating crossbows, but without those, there's no point in using or having a crossbow when bows are so much better. Even hand crossbows are useless. True, bows get higher penalties in close combat, but they get a lot more feats, as noted above. Feats where you can almost negate such penalties for close combat (and cover/concealment).
I agree with the general sentiment, but I think I'd rather see crossbows act not as bows, but as crossbows, and have feats that support that, the same way they can justify TWF and Two handed and One Handed+Sheild and One handed, plus free hand, fighting style feats. Crossbow Ace, though incredibly weak (seriously, it adds on average a max of +4 damage even at level 20), actually feels like the type of feat I'd like to see. It doesn't make it reload 0 (so effectively a non-composite bow), but it instead boosts the effectiveness in terms of damage.
Now, as I said, I think the damage increase is puny, and it performs poorly in the class it's designed for, and just a flat damage increase is kind of dull as a way to boost its competativeness, but I could definitely see some things that could be used to boost it. Maybe a feat to reduce the action cost to ready an action, down to a single action, calling back to the Crossbowman archetype in PF1e, or hell, give it the ability to use shove or trip, calling back to meteor shot from that archetype, or a two action target touch AC Attack a la Pinpoint Targeting, and these are just a couple things that I'm listing off design that they already did.