We have confirmation coming in that a whopping SIX people have gotten shipping notices since last week!
Which is to say that 6 people have commented in the kickstarter campaign comments section. We have no way of knowing how many others might have received anything.
Eek. I did not participate in this Kickstarter, just came over to this forum to try to learn when & where I can start putting down my cash to buy Starfinder minis. What's the hope for Starfinder minis on FLGS shelves anytime soon?
Eek. I did not participate in this Kickstarter, just came over to this forum to try to learn when & where I can start putting down my cash to buy Starfinder minis. What's the hope for Starfinder minis on FLGS shelves anytime soon?
A small range of prepainted minis have just become available. They’re pricey, but reports on the quality have been quite high (I haven’t seen them myself).
Unpainted versions are probably a way off.
I would prefer the prepainted miniatures over the unpainted ones, but I decided the cost vs quantity of the prepainted ones were too much for me. I'll just paint the kickstarter ones whenever they arrive.
I'm still painting my Reaper bones kickstarter minis anyway so I'm in no rush. That company ran they kickstarter and delivery much more efficiently. I wish Ninja Division ran similar but that's not the case.
A small range of prepainted minis have just become available. They’re pricey, but reports on the quality have been quite high (I haven’t seen them myself).
Unpainted versions are probably a way off.
Thank you!
Okay I found those prepainted ones online for sale.... 4 minis for $30? Hm, feels too steep right now. I can wait for prices to get reasonable.
I decided the cost vs quantity of the prepainted ones were too much for me. ... I'm still painting my Reaper bones kickstarter minis anyway so I'm in no rush.
Ditto! That Reaper Bones KS was fantastic. Still paintin' away on those... slowly
An apparent memo from Ninja Division.
Response to complaint #536563
Super Dungeon is a board game created by Soda Pop Miniatures LLC, and designed and published by its
sister company Ninja Division Publishing LLC.
In 2015 Ninja Division Publishing, under license from Soda Pop Miniatures, ran a crowdfunding campaign on
the Kickstarter platform to fund a new edition of the Super Dungeon board game. The campaign raised
$1,290,522 through pledges by 6,611 backers. The project had an estimated completion date of December
2016. As of the date of this letter, this project’s completion is currently delayed while we continue final
development of some components and actively seek additional funding in order to complete the project.
We have every intention to complete the project and fulfill the promised rewards.
Kickstarter
What is Kickstarter?
Kickstarter is a platform to fund projects that may not have been possible through traditional funding methods.
“Kickstarter PBC is a funding platform for creative projects. Everything from films, games, and
music to art, design, and technology.[1]”
“Backers that support a project on Kickstarter get an inside look at the creative process, and help
that project come to life. They also get to choose from a variety of unique rewards offered by the
project creator. Rewards vary from project to project, but often include a copy of what is being
produced (CD, DVD, book, etc.) or an experience unique to the project. Project creators keep
100% ownership of their work, and Kickstarter cannot be used to offer equity, financial returns, or
to solicit loans.[2]”
What was the Super Dungeon Legends Kickstarter?
The Super Dungeon Kickstarter was launched to fund the development and creation of three groups of
new products.[3]
1. A refresh of the existing Super Dungeon board game with a “2nd Edition,” designed to improve the
game play.
2. A large format expansion, called Super Dungeon Legends, that introduces roleplaying elements to
the core game.
3. A line of small expansions, designed to supplement gameplay and add variety.
The Kickstarter proved an overwhelming success, raised $1,290,522 through pledges by 6,611 backers, with
an estimated completion of December 2016.
Our Obligation
Once the Kickstarter successfully funded Kickstarter’s Terms of Use define our obligations as quoted
below:
“When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each
reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest
communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must
understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering
something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something
could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised. [4.Terms
of Use Section 4]”
Complaints and Fulfillment
The central issue in the complaint(s) filed against us is that the Kickstarter is now almost two years delayed
and some backers are concerned that they will not receive their rewards. We remain 100% fully committed to
doing everything in our power to fulfill our obligation despite the delays and hurdles we have encountered.
Delay
One of the central assumptions of the complaint(s) filed is that Kickstarter is a “preorder” for a product. This is
not the case. As cited in the Kickstarter terms above “backers must understand that when they back a
project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may
be changes or delays”
Product Testing
As part of this creative process we involved backers in a public “beta” test of the rules for the products
included in the Kickstarter. This involved periodic posting of rules in development, which allowed backers
to play the game using the rules and provide feedback.
After months of testing, feedback to the revised 2nd Edition product was lukewarm at best. This led us to
make the decision to scrap the existing rules and begin anew from scratch. Our reasoning being that part
of funding through Kickstarter was that this was a creative process, and our backers desired adjustments
to the product to better fit their expectations. So in the mutual interest of creating a more satisfying end
result we began again. This decision was explained in detail in an update to backers, and was widely well
received and considered as a positive development, even though such a decision would incur delays.[5]
Unfortunately, we did not fully realise the complete ramifications and ripple effects of this decision.
Project Changes
Through continued development of the 2nd Edition product, it became apparent that changes to the
project were required.
1. The 2nd Edition product which was intended to be a single boxed game with only incremental changes
would need to be broken out into three distinct products: Super Dungeon Explore, Super Dungeon
Arcade, Super Dungeon Pet Parade.
2. The Super Dungeon Legends expansion could not meet quality expectations as an expansion and was
turned into a standalone product. Requiring further significant development.
3. The smaller single expansions would all require complete redevelopment to be useable as part of new
changes for the above products.
These changes were decided upon as part of the ongoing development process for the project and to
satisfy both company and backer expectations of quality. However, they also increased development time,
development costs, manufacturing costs, and future shipping costs. All of which we absorbed, at no
additional cost to backers. These changes were communicated to backers via an update. [6]
As an apology for the delays and changes we provided backers with additional rewards, including a new
deluxe model and new cards increasing their gameplay options. Like the changes to the products this incurred
additional costs to us as well as increased development time.[7]
Health Issues
In March 2017, Dietrich Stella the lead designer for Super Dungeon, developed heart problems. This led to a
911 call, multiple ER visits, and a hospital stay. It also led to approximately 6 months limited work ability while
seeking treatment. While this delay was not initially made public, in an effort to preserve privacy, it was
eventually discussed in the Kickstarter comments [8] and in a video Q&A in the interest of full transparency. [9]
Realizing we had lost more time and needing additional hands we hired a new designer Justin Gibbs in August
of 2017 to help continue Super Dungeon’s development.
Finances
While the crowdfunding campaign successfully raised funds towards the project’s creations, delays and the
project’s increase in scope from changes lead to serious cash flow issues within the company which we
continue to battle in an attempt to fulfill our obligation.
Initial Funding
The initial funds raised for the Kickstarter were collected at the end of 2015.
● Funds Raised: $1,277,204 (approximately $13,318 of pledges bounced)
● Total Fees: -$103,386 (These include Kickstarter and payment processing fees.)
● Project Expenses: -$485,679 (This includes license fees, marketing, outside art, sculpting, writing,
etc.)
● Refunds: -$53,441.00
● Annual Overhead: -$343,559 (This includes payroll, facilities leasing, and additional overhead.)
Initial Funding was able to cover initial development as well as the company’s annual overhead for the end of
2015 and all of 2016. However, the project changes and additional development required (as outlined above)
required us to use remaining funds towards our annual overhead for 2017, essentially exhausting the funds
earned from Kickstarter. While also not being able to bring the product to market for 2017 retail sales.
With a significant amount of the project’s development complete, the majority of production was expected to
begin in November 2017, which we communicated with backers via an update. [10] The products that we were
able to complete development of during 2016 - 2017 were shown in an update to backers in early 2018. [11]
Unfortunately, the funds we anticipated to have in place in order to begin manufacturing did not materialize.
Required Funds to Complete Project
With the Kickstarter funds expended it was upon us to be able to self fund the necessary cash needed to
complete the project. The remaining estimates for completion of the project are shown below.
● Manufacturing: $490,592.00
● Shipping: $238,000.00
● Remaining Development: $17,400
Raising the funds needed was attempted (and continues to be attempted) through profits of non-Super
Dungeon projects as well as outside investor funding.
To date we have still not been able to secure funding for the approximately $750,000 needed to complete the
project. However, we continue to work diligently in an attempt to find the funds.
Financial Disclosure
As a privately held LLC, financial details of the project have, to date, remained private in order to prevent a “run
on the bank” scenario for refund requests from backers; to not jeopardize potential investment opportunities; or
to erode existing partners’ confidence in the company. (Partners and investors in need-to-know situations are,
of course, made aware.)
Kickstarter does require a financial disclosure in their terms and conditions under the following requirements:
“If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic
obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way
of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only
remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
● they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what
prevents them from finishing the project as planned;”[12.Terms of Use Section 4]
At this time, we are still actively “making every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to
the best possible conclusion” — which is complete fulfillment of all rewards.
Project Future
We continue to work towards bringing this project to fruition. However, we continue to have multiple hurdles
that we are overcoming.
Cashflows
Super Dungeon is the company’s primary income source. With the delays and inability to manufacture, we
have seen a steady decline in our sales and cashflows. This has lead to a company relocation to a smaller
facility, layoffs, furloughs, and inventory liquidation. Despite the picture painted by some complaints that our
owners have “taken the money and run”; our owners have been especially hard hit, selling their homes,
draining savings accounts, and going months with reduced, or no salaries all in an attempt to reduce our
overhead and free up cash and move the project forward.
Outward Communication
We have always strived to present open communication with our backers. We have posted 132 updates to our
Kickstarter. We also have a dedicated customer support representative who answers emails, engages on
social media, and communicates directly with backers in the Kickstarter comments sections.
However, as the delay drags on, communication from a small group of backers has become increasingly vocal
and hostile. We have been accused of being liars, had threats made to our homes and families, had
campaigns actively targeting our other projects in an attempt to make them fail, as well as targeted social
media campaigns against us.
During 2018 the actions of these hostile backers has become increasingly rampant including actively rating
products as poor to damage the company’s sales, letter campaigns to the BBB and to our partners, creating
false social media accounts using our names to spread misinformation, and now filing complaints to the AGs
office. The sum total of this has added to our cashflow burdens, mired us in a seemingly never ending cycle of
rebuting misinformation and disputing complaints, and severely reduced company morale. If necessary,
documentation of all of these items can be provided.
While we certainly understand and feel that frustration in the delays is justified, the constant hostility led us to
make a decision in June to pull back from our regular Kickstarter updates. Our new policy is that once we have
concrete information regarding production and fulfillment we will post an update on it. Anything else appears to
only stir the hornet’s nest and invite further hostilities.
Remaining Options
Despite the above issues, we continue to doggedly pursue any and all avenues we can to fulfill our obligation.
Currently, we have a few options we are pursuing:
● We are in discussion with multiple companies about an acquisition of our studio. This includes
assistance in fulfilling our obligations.
● We are currently working with our manufacturing partner to produce Super Dungeon Arcade on credit.
While this is single product from the Kickstarter, it is considered a core product that has the potential to
jump start sales of our other existing products in the marketplace.
● Should one of our acquisition options fail to come through, or the Super Dungeon Arcade printing
proves a success, our manufacturer has expressed interest in working further with us on additional
products from the Kickstarter to slowly roll out production and meet our obligations.
If documentation of these discussions is required we are happy to provide them.
Conclusion
We understand backers’ frustration in the delay. While it has held up the delivery of $50-300 in rewards to any
given backer, the cost of the delay to the company and the people who have worked tirelessly towards its
creation has been millions of dollars in lost revenues, lost jobs, and future opportunity. This is in no way a
result we would have intentionally caused, nor is one that we have arrived at through a breach of our
Kickstarter obligation.
We have worked diligently and in good faith to bring the project to its best possible conclusion, and we
continue to do so.
Thank you for your time in considering our response to the filed complaint. If you require any additional
documentation or clarification please do not hesitate to contact us.
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TL:DR version - "We're out of money, and are using the profits of other kickstarter projects (like the starfinder "masterclass" minis and the over a year behind schedule Relic Knights kickstarter) to fund production of a kickstarter over 2 years behind schedule."
It's like a Ponzi scheme, but with money... so... yeah.
Also, the one Ninja Division employee that updated backers quit or resigned at the end of October (here)
AND they've announced another couple projects to continue their questionable business model.
But I'm sure those won't interfere with their prior obligations.
Paizo states that they are doing what they can to support ND.
Just to keep you updated on Ninja Division's continued swirling down the drain - it's been over a month since anyone from Ninja Division has commented in the kickstarter, so the news comes from other sources.
Here's an related to the above post about finances. It needs an editor. Interestingly, the linked response to the Idaho Attorney General includes the contact information for some of the top dogs (not to demean dogs in anyway) at ND.
And here's some news (5 days old now) from someone working with Ninja Division:
It won't be an official statement as we need to wait until Thursday when CEO of Archon will be holding a meeting with Ninja Division about this situation.
However, the fact is that we are on hold with all Ninja Division projects due to lack of payment (Starfider, Relic Knights as well as Humble Bundle - Paizo is still not paid).
After reading everything that is going on, I sure hope Paizo does what it can to get our SF minis to us. Literally the only reason purchasing the kickstarter to begin with was because Paizo and Mona stated on several occasions they would make certain the minis would be completed despite Ninja Division's past.
After reading everything that is going on, I sure hope Paizo does what it can to get our SF minis to us. Literally the only reason purchasing the kickstarter to begin with was because Paizo and Mona stated on several occasions they would make certain the minis would be completed despite Ninja Division's past.
Are you sure that’s what they said?
I heard them say they had confidence that ND would deliver. Generally including a disclaimer that responsibility for fulfilment would rest with Ninja Division. That was enough to make me back the project over my misgivings, but it wasn’t any kind of guarantee.
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I heard them say they had confidence that ND would deliver. Generally including a disclaimer that responsibility for fulfilment would rest with Ninja Division. That was enough to make me back the project over my misgivings, but it wasn’t any kind of guarantee.
And this is why people get upset when people mention things they can't mention.
Confidence that you can rely on someone so notoriously unreliable that half the fanbase said "wait.. those guys? Are you SURE" would imply (not state but imply) something more than "i have a good feeling about this" :
A fair number of people People got into this largely because paizo vouched for them. While that doesn't legally make paizo responsible, legalities are only going to make people angrier.
A fair number of people People got into this largely because paizo vouched for them. While that doesn't legally make paizo responsible, legalities are only going to make people angrier.
I’m one of them. I backed it early, then withdrew when I heard about their history. When Paizo vouched for them, I pledged $600 again.
The fact it’s a lousy situation doesn’t mean we should distort what Paizo or ND did/are doing. It’s bad enough without needing to exaggerate things.
After reading everything that is going on, I sure hope Paizo does what it can to get our SF minis to us. Literally the only reason purchasing the kickstarter to begin with was because Paizo and Mona stated on several occasions they would make certain the minis would be completed despite Ninja Division's past.Are you sure that’s what they said?
I heard them say they had confidence that ND would deliver. Generally including a disclaimer that responsibility for fulfilment would rest with Ninja Division. That was enough to make me back the project over my misgivings, but it wasn’t any kind of guarantee.
Steve, I heard Eric Mona on several occasions say Paizo would make certain ND follows through. I've taken Mona at his word on everything else, why wouldn't I do it this time, too?
I wasn’t suggesting you shouldn’t believe Erik, I was suggesting you may be misremembering what was said (purely based on the comments I saw on the message boards which were not as strong as that).
If Erik said Paizo would make certain that ND would follow through on their commitments then Paizo should take more responsibility for seeing the project is completed. I’ve just never seen them say that (I’ve seen more vague “we have confidence in Ninja Division” statements).
It's just disheartening that we are going to get formian minis from WizKids with PF battles sets before we even have another public release from these ND guys.
Huh. Looks like Sara's latest posts have disappeared.
They haven't, different thread.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
D'oh /facepalm
Thanks for setting me straight.
Np ^w^
This was my first foray into Kickstarter. So disappointed.
I wish Paizo hadn't plugged for them.
I kind of wish Paizo would take them off their store page, but that might hurt my chances of ever seeing these fulfilled.
Even if ND gets any money from the minis sold here, they have a backlog of even older failed kickstarters that will probably get that money (if any of it even goes to a kickstarter instead of unpaid electric bills/rent/whatever).
I eventually came across that. It makes me sad, although ai did get some figures... around $18/figure is not a deal, but better than overseas who got nothing.
So, is everyone from the locked thread coming over here now?
