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I don't personally view Paladins as "Holy Warriors" so much as "unimpeachably good and honorable people". Nothing about the Paladin intrinsically says to me "you follow a deity and fight for them." I believe that latter thing should be a different class entirely.
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I'll also second a cry to those screaming about wanting a full Bab holy warrior who isn't lawful good...
Sentinel.
Full BAB, Divine powers, there ya go.
Sure, just make him Base Class, and pally prestige :3
Nature champions of Gozreh (protecting the wilds and wilderness creatures and people who make their living by the wilds) and arcane champions of Nethys (promoting and defending arcane magic and arcanists) seem as viable.
For the first I'd rather see variant of 4e Warden class, for a second sure... maybe with magus choice of spells rather than usual pally.
I don't personally view Paladins as "Holy Warriors" so much as "unimpeachably good and honorable people". Nothing about the Paladin intrinsically says to me "you follow a deity and fight for them." I believe that latter thing should be a different class entirely.
names, names those are just names
I'm not really willing to die for paladin name, as long as I can make CG champion of Desna, with simmilar sttructure as LG paladin (and obviously some changes like freedom of movement instead of immunity to fear or something). It can be named in class mechanic Delicious Lemoncake for all I care.In fact I now think in my next Golarion game paladins will be only Champions of Iomedae, named after hell twelve valiant companions, while other gods have other champions will other quirks - Holly Hunter for Erastil, Stalwart Defender for Torag, Dawnflower Dervish for Sarenrae, Rainbow Guard for Shelyn, and so on, so on, so one.
No more those pesky capitalistic paladins of Abadar, ai yoy!
And, much like in 3.X, where the Blackguard was a Prestige Class was a rare honor that one had to earn, and Paladin was a base class that any schmoe could take (suggesting that evil had standards, and good did not), in Golarion, the Hellknight is a Prestige Class, only available to those who prove their worth to champion the cause, while Paladins are no more 'prestigious' or special than Rogues or Fighters (or Commoners or Experts).
I think some system of... class levels - with base classes / prestige classes / exalted classes would be neat.
you can start as a fighter or magic dabler... but to become paladin or wizard... oh boi it won't be easy.
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I'll also second a cry to those screaming about wanting a full Bab holy warrior who isn't lawful good...
Sentinel.
Full BAB, Divine powers, there ya go.
Nope, we want the whole munchkin-bandwagon of divine grace, smite something, self-healing, immunities and 4 lvl divine casting. And ("gasp") without roleplaying restrictions. Not some upstart prestige class that has nothing in common with paladin chassis.
TBH I'm now thinking that spellless paladins and rangers would be neat idea :3
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names, names those are just names
I'm not really willing to die for paladin name, as long as I can make CG champion of Desna, with simmilar sttructure as LG paladin (and obviously some changes like freedom of movement instead of immunity to fear or something). It can be named in class mechanic Delicious Lemoncake for all I care.In fact I now think in my next Golarion game paladins will be only Champions of Iomedae, named after hell twelve valiant companions, while other gods have other champions will other quirks - Holly Hunter for Erastil, Stalwart Defender for Torag, Dawnflower Dervish for Sarenrae, Rainbow Guard for Shelyn, and so on, so on, so one.
No more those pesky capitalistic paladins of Abadar, ai yoy!
There's already archetypes for Paladins of Torag (Stonelord) and Paladin of Abadar (dunno name but it's in the new book, Merchant's Manifest). So it's cool to see them already getting different abilities depending on faith.
Abadar one gets "Detect Forgery" for example.
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I mean, if I play a fighter and I do all the same incantations and hand gestures and wave bat guano around just like the wizard does, why can't I cast spells?
Sometimes game mechanical contrivances aren't there for reasons of verisimilitude.
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I don't personally view Paladins as "Holy Warriors" so much as "unimpeachably good and honorable people". Nothing about the Paladin intrinsically says to me "you follow a deity and fight for them." I believe that latter thing should be a different class entirely.So if I play a fighter who is "unimpeachably good an honorable" does he get Paladin powers? If not, where do the powers come from?
This is how they worked in ye olden days. Religion was optional, but they still had to adhere to SOME philosophy at least. But yeah, they were a fighter "subclass".
You also needed to roll impossibly amazing stats to qualify, so that was the main barrier.
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There's already archetypes for Paladins of Torag (Stonelord) and Paladin of Abadar (dunno name but it's in the new book, Merchant's Manifest). So it's cool to see them already getting different abilities depending on faith.
Abadar one gets "Detect Forgery" for example.
Oh, love it. Still in my Golarions pallys of Old Abe has to be LN, because you know - they cannot Smite Chaos without being paid for it, which LG pally would not accept. :3
So if I play a fighter who is "unimpeachably good an honorable" does he get Paladin powers? If not, where do the powers come from?
From unique combination of unnecessary broadened and convoluted and ill executed variant of Lankhmar setting cosmological powers :3
There's already archetypes for Paladins of Torag (Stonelord) and Paladin of Abadar (dunno name but it's in the new book, Merchant's Manifest). So it's cool to see them already getting different abilities depending on faith.
Abadar one gets "Detect Forgery" for example.
Oh, love it. Still in my Golarions pallys of Old Abe has to be LN, because you know - they cannot Smite Chaos without being paid for it, which LG pally would not accept. :3
From unique combination of unnecessary broadened and convoluted and ill executed variant of Lankhmar setting cosmological powers :3
Well, his Paladins shouldn't be as dickish as his clerics. It says Paladins are more "financially aggressive" with risks in their investments to promote business and economical growth! Their smite is focused on those that try offer unfair deals and monpolies (GG Aspis Consortium)
But your paladins sound pretty funny too. I've had fun NPCing the Bank of Abadar in Korvosa (COTC AP).
And that's why the class requires 1 level of paladin to enter, except it doesn't. Flavorwise they're the antithesis of paladins and so it makes sense for fallen paladin to become one, but there should also exist individuals who are so bloodthirsty and chaotic that they become one.
Nor are all antipaladins fallen paladins.This seems to indicate that they are:
Antipaladin:
Although it is a rare occurrence, paladins do sometimes stray from the path of righteousness. Most of these wayward holy warriors seek out redemption and forgiveness for their misdeeds, regaining their powers through piety, charity, and powerful magic. Yet there are others, the dark and disturbed few, who turn actively to evil, courting the dark powers they once railed against in order to take vengeance on their former brothers. It’s said that those who climb the farthest have the farthest to fall, and antipaladins are living proof of this fact, their pride and hatred blinding them to the glory of their forsaken patrons.Antipaladins become the antithesis of their former selves.
That is only a mention that fallen paladins can become antipaladins. It is not necessary to have paladins levels to be an antipaladin.
Well, his Paladins shouldn't be as dickish as his clerics. It says Paladins are more "financially aggressive" with risks in their investments to promote business and economical growth! Their smite is focused on those that try offer unfair deals and monpolies (GG Aspis Consortium)
Now that's also neat.
TBH from some time - I lack skill - I thought about replacing Paladins and at least some other champions of other classes with Champion class, with three subsets - Crusader, Defender and Avenger, with different skillsets but basic divine graces.Crusader will be Warlordish leader
Defender well tank
and Avenger striker assasin.
In Abadarism Crusaders will be those agressively promoting capitalism in backward feudal states, Defenders will defend financial assets of church while Avengers... well there is reason of saying Iron Bank of Abadar will always have it's due ;)
I do like Champions as a cosmic force. An entity whose powers are divine but not derived from the gods.
Gods and/or Religions put in effort to recruit Champions because they highly value them but cannot produce them.
That could work if there were Prestige extremely Rare class with really munchkin set of powers. Paladins as core class are not.
Now I'd probably not use it - since I prefer my gods to be like highest level of divine avaliable, and make them less personal and more mysterious forces with various gods suspected to be aspects of others, many names and rivaling sects - just like I'd probably give Abadar different name in Tian-Xia, and play this samurai sun lady as in theory Sarenrae aspect.
Good, Evil, Law, Chaos - those are beyond gods and mortals, and mortals would be fried if they touched pure stuff, and maybe gods too.
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I don't personally view Paladins as "Holy Warriors" so much as "unimpeachably good and honorable people". Nothing about the Paladin intrinsically says to me "you follow a deity and fight for them." I believe that latter thing should be a different class entirely.
Warpriests are Holy Warriors. Paladins are Warriors of Conviction. It might not sit well with full-BAB purists, but I love this difference, both classes have wildly different flavours and it warrants more exploration.
The Paladin is fuelled by confidence and conviction, seriously. Their defence and longevity comes from charisma, and their mechanical flavour is all about being too damn stubborn to give in to evil. The Paladin does not need a deity. And despite being full BAB, they're not exactly outstanding warriors. They fight for ideals, ways of living. Not necessarily gods - and this is why Smite Evil is their core feature, and why being irrepressible is baked into their chassis.
I think other alignment options are fine for the Paladin chassis. they just need to not be called 'Paladins', and have a code of conduct worthy of the class. Just being NG is not enough - it needs to be a serious, dedicated NG.
Compare the Warpriest. Their features are much more heavily deity-oriented. They are wisdom focused, and pack bonus feats. They are trained fighters - arguably moreso than Paladins, and this shows when they carry their god's blessing into battle.
The Warpriest will not fight their nemesis as amazingly as the Paladin will, but the Warpriest is better equipped to uphold their god's methods and ideals, through spells and feats, and still carry plenty of weapons against enemies of their faith.
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On a side note, I'm confident that we're not going to see Divine Grace taking the same form in 2E. Adding Charisma to all saves is ludicrously powerful with the >10< system. I reckon it'll either replace the mod for Will/Fort, something akin to Charmed Life, or just be a big boost to save proficiency.
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What's the class that gets its powers from the elemental forces of Chaos and Evil? Law and Evil? Good and Chaos? Just Good? Just Law? Just Evil? Just Chaos? Utter Neutrality?
You see the problem here? There are people who want to play a class like Paladin, but want to get their power from another source.
I don't care if the name "Paladin" is reserved for the LG version of this, but there really should be a version of this for every alignment, or a lore explanation as to why only the elemental forces of Law and Good, while working in tandem, can create a being like the Paladin.
There has been a lore reason behind it, for like, ever.
Fine. Quote me Golarion's lore reason for paladins only being lawful good. I'll wait.
The paladin is based on the holy knight from European mythology, such as Rolando and Galahad. A similar disciplined and honorable warrior also is epitomized in the Japanese code of bushido. Golarion is a patchwork of myths converted into roleplaying form. Pathfinder should be a system where a player can play a holy knight, and that should include the code of discipline, the protection of the people, and the inspiring virtue of the mythological holy knight.
And a player declaring, "I want to play a holy knight, but without the discipline part of knighthood and the virtuous part of holiness," misses the point of what a holy knight is.
thflame's idea of warriors empowered by other creeds is a good compromise. Malachandra also suggested a good compromise. However, I have seen clerics played so that an observer would never guess which god they serve. Unless the design of the empowered knight was radically different for each source of power, the nine or more flavors of empowered knights would end up too similar to each other. The holy knight paladin would be easily mistaken for the radiant knight or the liberating knight or the justice knight, and the common people would not immediately recognize his virtue. And a class with nine archetypes would be too bulky for the core rulebook.
Maybe we will be lucky and the new PF2 class feat system will have nine flavors of alignment-based feats for a distinctive spectrum of PF2 paladins without needing an archetype for each alignment.
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Alignment feats is a pretty cool idea. I'm having trouble thinking of enough of them to warrant the distinction, but I'd certainly be interested if Paizo wanted to implement something like that.
I'm the total opposite regarding gods. In my games, say, Abadar is a level 19 or 20 PC-grade Merchant (possibly with a splash of Alchemist/Wizard qualities) type character.
Come one 20 level? At least give him 5 Mythic Ranks, he's Greater Deity for Law's Sake. Are we going back to time when Lloth has like 69 Hit points?
I see things similarly. Only the tiniest fraction of these forces give birth to Outsiders and Champions and that is part of WHY they are so valued by gods and religions.
But that need Champions to be strong.
In a way I now thinking... maybe it should be mythic path.But then Outsiders are common. You can just leave piece of soul-matter in a wet and warm place, and tadam - two weeks and you have 3HD functional summon planar ally I outsider. Those things are like cockroaches.
Warpriests are Holy Warriors. Paladins are Warriors of Conviction. It might not sit well with full-BAB purists, but I love this difference, both classes have wildly different flavours and it warrants more exploration.
TBH that I could get totally. Although there are some problems - aren't Clerics spellcasters of conviction. In core you have philosophy clerics and warpriests... that sounds... simmilar.
Now TBH now I think my variant Champion could work just as well as Oath based class.. with Oaths of Protection, Oaths of Retribution and Oaths of... Evangelisation?... or smth not necessarily gods per se.
Now I think we could strip those quasi-divine forces from Champion, healing, spells, rather give him... conviction bonuses - like divine grace is no longer divine gift, but just matter of conviction of champion adding to his defences.
Alignment feats is a pretty cool idea. I'm having trouble thinking of enough of them to warrant the distinction, but I'd certainly be interested if Paizo wanted to implement something like that.
Oh man, somebody get this person some asbestos undies!
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I see Narrative Gamers versus the Agency Gamers as a false dichotomy.
In my campaigns, I had one player who played a paladin. The same player also played a goblin. He did a good job with both characters.
The human paladin was in Rise of the Runelords. The player was surprised that I did not give his paladin a hard time or try to trick him into falling. I thought that a paladin protecting the town of Sandpoint from evil was a good use of the class. The paladin disagreed with the party's association with an evil double agent who fed them information for her own goals, but he did not fight the party about it.
The goblin was in Jade Regent and I had encouraged players to try out the races in the new Advanced Race Guide. The party was going to stop the Licktoad goblins' raids on caravans and his goblin alchemist (fire bomber) was a former member of the tribe, who left because he had learned to read. The human ninja (pretending to be a monk at the time) had an argument with the goblin almost immediately, declaring that goblins were too chaotic to be trusted. The goblin responded back that she was prejudiced by outdated stereotypes. The ninja defended outdated stereotypes as traditional. Fun times between two players who were roleplaying rather than truly arguing.
I don't see how the goblin fits into the narrative less well than the paladin.
The difference between the Narrative Gamers and the Agency Gamers I see in HWalsh's description is that the Narrative Gamers based their characters on the setting's story and the Agency Gamer's based their character on an independent story. A paladin could be an Agency character if thrown into the wrong setting. For example, imagine a paladin in devil-worshipping Cheliax, where the priests have held a whispering campaign to undermine the image of paladins. The paladin won't get the respect of the people and will be in constant conflict with the government authorities. Likewise, a player who wants to play a paladin in a party of True Neutral treasure-looting mercenaries will be a fish out of water.
I view roleplaying games as a communal effort to create a narrative within the bounds of a set of rules and an established setting. Each player must contribute to the story with individual choices, so his or her character cannot be defined solely by the rules and setting. Rules that force a character to act one specific way with no latitude deny the player the ability to contribute to the narrative. On the other side of the coin, if a player's agency gives his or her character actions that do not fit the existing narrative, then the player's conflicting contribution will be rejected by the communal narrative. These conflicts are not necessary. Give and take in roleplaying can lead to agency supporting narrative.
For example, my wife decided on an impossible character for my Iron Gods campaign. She wanted to play a dwarven gadgeteer. This fit the setting in the industrial town of Torch where the town wizard had already crafted several unique items to help the town. But Pathfinder lacks a gadgeteer class. We worked together with archetypes and traits to made a low-damage gunslinger that tinkered. And the gunslinger was a long-time employee of the wizard. That character evolved as she leveled, and added more gadgeteering with technology feats and homebrew feats. And this Christmas, when my wife gave me the Starfinder Rulebook as a gift, I discovered that she had duplicated the Mechanic class from Starfinder in what was essentially a pre-Starfinder setting. Her agency was spot on the narrative.
And a player declaring, "I want to play a holy knight, but without the discipline part of knighthood and the virtuous part of holiness," misses the point of what a holy knight is.
See you boil it to archetypes.
I boil it to setting logic - where cosmic powers are constantly in eternal balanced strife, but somehow only one combination create champions.Now I do not think Chaotic equivalents should have the same power sets, but I believe they should exist, for Chaos mysterious sake.
Unless the design of the empowered knight was radically different for each source of power, the nine or more flavors of empowered knights would end up too similar to each other.
Now that's problem - on divine level good and evil has this Postivie / Negative energy b*$$&&+@ to recognize them.
Law and Chaos lacks it, so it's hard to on battlefield differentiate lawful and chaotic champions of the same G-E basis.
Ban Positive and Negative Energy and make undead necromantic constructs!!!
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Alignment feats is a pretty cool idea. I'm having trouble thinking of enough of them to warrant the distinction, but I'd certainly be interested if Paizo wanted to implement something like that.
If we do have alignment feats, I think it would be wise of paizo to make the prerequisites for them alignment components rather than specific alignments. In other words, each one is available to either an entire row or an entire column on the alignment chart.
If I made a thread suggesting my "multiple interpretations in universe" solution to Paladin's what it devolve into a s!*%show? The idea works whether or not paladins are restricted to lawful good. So long as they have a code, and I don't think very many people are saying they shouldn't have a code, the idea is applicable. Indeed, it would be helpful to any class with a code to establish that ability loss only occurs when the characters actions follow no sane interpretation of their code, rather than ask the GM to enforce their personal interpretation of it.
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I feel like part of the reason only LG gets Paladins is because it's possible to live (successfully) as a complete exemplar of law and goodness, survive, flourish, and come into your own where you can access those cosmic forces themselves.
A person trying to live as the platonic ideal of "chaotic good" probably does not survive very long and the cosmic force of "chaos" is going to mess you up pretty good.
Like most people could survive a lot longer in Axis than they could in the Maelstrom (and Heaven is like the one outer plane that specifically makes accommodations for people who don't really belong there), as what's good for outsiders is not necessarily good for people.
Ah see this isn't gonna work cause I already disagree with some of your assumptions about morality. That sort of argument never ends.
Sorry bout that kinda conked out there(because it was 7-8 am), and I won't continue the fight, because I wanted to agree to disagree a few posts before you did, and even tried to give you an out, that you didn't take.
What I will say vidmaster, is that you're right I do take things like this maybe a bit too seriously, because as I said in my last post on Pg 3(but may not have emphasized enough), I Devour Lore, and see the pie wheel system as resolutely true within Magic, so Black doesn't care about your views on morality(kinda what it means to be Truly Amoral), and Abadar would be a White Deity. I've actually very much incorporated D&D's Alignment Chart, the Magic Pie Wheel, and even Chronicles of Darkness' Supernal realms & their shadows & arcana (Pandemonium/Primordial Dream, Faerie/Hedge&Arcadia, Stygia/Underworld, Primal Wilds/Shadow, & the Aether) into how I view the world around me.
Now Everyone else, I am very sorry for intruding once more with this drivel, please continue with your talk of LG-only vs Other Alignments for Paladins Debate.
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But your paladins sound pretty funny too. I've had fun NPCing the Bank of Abadar in Korvosa (COTC AP).
Oh yes, them... at the end of our CotCT campaign the new, Lawful Good king of Korvosa hung a sign on the city gate that said "priests of Abadar not welcome, any found inside the city will be fed to the Gryphons". We almost preferred the church of Asmodeus (though we did kill their high priest), because the Abadareans were so money grabbing.
Sadly I don't think that detail will be canon in the PF2 timeline.
I feel like part of the reason only LG gets Paladins is because it's possible to live (successfully) as a complete exemplar of law and goodness, survive, flourish, and come into your own where you can access those cosmic forces themselves.
But how cosmic ideal of Law even mesh up well with Good. Axiomites are like mad collective mathematicians, they are about as human and allowing for human prosperous life as Yog-Soggoth.
A person trying to live as the platonic ideal of "chaotic good" probably does not survive very long and the cosmic force of "chaos" is going to mess you up pretty good.
You know I know honestly doubt platonic ideal of any corner element is possible. If I made 5x5 chart - with Exalted - Good - Neutral - Corrupted - Evil, and Axiomatic - Lawful - Neutral - Anarchic - Chaotic, it's quite probably there will be no corners... no Axiomatic Exalted, no Chaotic Exalted, no Vile Axiomatic
The paladins would be Lawful Exalted, Lawful Good, or Axiomatic Good.
Levels 13 - 20 are my 'mythic'/'epic'/whatever.
What are you?! Some Warhammer player!!!?
Think of it this way. Any god can raise a cleric or warpriest or hire fighters by the barrel. Champions are special not because they are any more powerful than other classes but because of supply and demand on a unique suite of abilities linked to Higher concepts than the gods.
That's problematic for me because while I consider most D&D and FR gods to be based around serious concepts, the cosmic alignments are for me no concepts but some failed bachelor of philosophy trollposts from DarkNet forums.
And honestly if Champion is a paladin - what sort of unique abilities he get. Nothing truly worldbreaking. Nothing that would convinve gods to care about them.
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If a code demands you behave in a chaotic fashion it doesn't somehow make it lawful.
"Act according to your whims" could be in a code of conduct and its not going to make someone a lawful person.
simultaneously Slapping a code that permits any form of alignment doesn't provide a justifiable restriction on the power boost a paladin gets compared to other martials.
Depending on the answer and the gorumites moral inclination (as chaos is an ethical code not a moral one)
TBH I always considered it to be a murky distinction of ethics and morality, when in my perspective ethics is philosophical approach to moral problems, not some additional axis.
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"Act according to your whims" could be in a code of conduct and its not going to make someone a lawful person.
But in fact almost none chaotic power support acting on a whim.
It's old trope of Gygax that should be killed and burned and salted where chaotic is acting on a whim.Acting on a whim is sign of weak Will save throw not chaotic tendencies.
simultaneously Slapping a code that permits any form of alignment doesn't provide a justifiable restriction on the power boost a paladin gets compared to other martials.
But PF paladin is not... really boosted?
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Alignment as a balancing factor has already been addressed multiple threads ago. Should Paladins be straight-up better than Fighters because the latter has no alignment restriction? Should Monks be more powerful than Fighters but less powerful than Paladins? Of course not.
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simultaneously Slapping a code that permits any form of alignment doesn't provide a justifiable restriction on the power boost a paladin gets compared to other martials.
Two points:
The Paladin does not have better mechanics than the Ranger or Barbarian. The Fighter is the odd class out here.
Using any code does not provide a justifiable restriction on a power boost, regardless. Don't balance mechanics with role playing restrictions.
Should Paladins be straight-up better than Fighters because the latter has no alignment restriction?
Are Paladins so much powerful than Fighters.
Are they more powerful than clerics?I run my games that way because that's how Magic evolves Pathfinder anyway.
In a way. But then how do you scale let's say Demon Lord Pazuzu as written in Bestiary?
Interesting notion, although if using raw material it basically means need to scale any statted NPC down at least half of its power...
So turned Karzoug into ancient evil?
So turned Karzoug into ancient evil?
I mean he is an ancient Evil.
I just find it interesting kyrt thinks he's more powerful than Abadar.
Depending on the answer and the gorumites moral inclination (as chaos is an ethical code not a moral one)TBH I always considered it to be a murky distinction of ethics and morality, when in my perspective ethics is philosophical approach to moral problems, not some additional axis.
True. D&d treats the law chaos axis as the ethical how versua good and evils moral why. Which was what i was trying to convey. CN, CG, CE, and N gorumites will all have different reasons to a moral problem but ultimately with goal of battle and struggle in mind. The N gorumite might attempt to formalize the conflict calling out their greatest champion for a duel but the result is the same.
"I mean he is an ancient Evil.
I just find it interesting kyrt thinks he's more powerful than Abadar."
I should say ELDRICHT EVIL.