I've played with a goblin and had no problems. Hell, I was playing a paladin in that campaign, and it still never became an issue.
I've never had a player be a Gnome or Halfling so far. That is why I think they don't beling in Core but in a supplement on little people ancestry.
I I never had a Goblin PC so far. That is why I think they don’t belong in Core but in a supplement on monster ancestry.
Well we don’t have any numbers, by I firmly believe that Golarion had known more adventurers groups with Halflings and Gnomes in it than Goblins.
When we say Core, it is not only’ for me at least, the most typical races of fantasy. It is also the most numerous to take on the road for becoming an adventurer. That is what Core means. This is why we don’t see Oread or Aasimar or Tengu in the Core rulebook. And this is why Goblins should not have that « new spot » as a core race.
On the other hand maybe in your Golarion Goblins are greats adventurers and there is no problem with that at all. It is just, for me and for a large number of people if we are reading the blog’s comments, not an evidence. At all. Like I can think of at least 5 races who should have their spot in Core, based on the probability that they choose a life of an adventurer.
Just be logical, if even an HalfOrc can raise doubt sometimes, how do you expect the guards to act with a Goblin? Three arrows in the head. Unless he is a slave, but even in that’s case slavers prefer Halflings. AGoblin players should at least have social penalties with the majority of civilized races.
In terms of actual number of PCs of each race, the core races aren't even all the most popular. Tiefling is more popular than dwarf, and aasimar is more popular than gnome or halfling.
Data is in this survey, Question #3.
Of all the non-core races, Goblin is #5 most popular. So it would...
I was talking about the setting. I think that in Golarion Goblins adventurers are rare. Such as Tieflings or Aasimars or whatever. There are way more Human Figthers than Goblins Paladin. Of course in game everyone wants to be the special cornflake and you end up with groups like Dhampir Brawler, Goblins Alchemist, Oracle/Paladin Aasimar and Tengu Rogue. But that is far from being the norm in the setting. It is only because people wants a shiny character. It like Han Solo was a Gungan and Luke a Zabrak, with Chewbacca you would have the perfect exotic races group. You have to differentiate love for exotism by the players and setting assumptions. Of course everybody wants to be Drizzt Do’Urden. But guess what, 95% of Drows are still evil, yet each group has a Drow Rogue who is a hero wannabe. That is the special cornflake symptom. 5E did a good job with that by presenting some races as « exotic and rare » in th core book. You have the rules, but they explain to you that they are rare.
On the other hand if Paizo wants to add an odd race they can, but they should explain that this is an exotic choice. And it should be Tieflings, as your numbers pointed it out. And it makes more sense, because they are more civilized than Goblins, can read, are not all mad maniacs and Cheliax is full of them, which is where like a quarter of the APs And PFS scenarios take place. Goblins really remind me of Drow in 3E or Dragonborn in 4E. Maybe worse, because I consider them the iconic «villain » of Golarion. I started Pathfinder by killing Goblins in Sandpoint after all. They are a funny evil mascot, not a core playable race.
I am not at all against new races or classes. It’s just that if they have enough pages for one, for me it should not be Goblins in priority.
Sorry for my English the longer the post, the most likely I am to make mistakes and it can be a pain to read.
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Goblin parents tend towards the abusive end of the spectrum, so killing them is sort of a mixed bag. And that wouldn't have been in front of the kids anyway, so what they'd remember would be the rescue and putting them some place nice (assuming they put them some place nice, of course).
I'll grant goblin parents probably aren't exactly beloved, but it's still not really something one would usually consider a favor. Especially not if they were too young at the time to actually remember their parents being abusive.
Also, this all assumes they give the goblins to random people rather than, y'know, actually setting something up they can check on and care about.
As for the 'humans with good reasons to hate goblins'? There's a reason I said 'in the vicinity of Sandpoint' rather than 'in Sandpoint'. It might easily be in Magnimar, for example, and they have little reason to hate goblins beyond the usual. Take 'em to the Church of Sarenrae there (or even the local Caydenite orphanage, or both in concert) and throw some money at the problem and you're probably good to go (especially with the occasional check-in).
That assumes a lot of thought and effort on the part of a group of adventurers. But realistically, even if they're put into a "good" setting, like an orphanage of a good deity or whatever, there's about a 0% chance of them not getting treated like crap by every kid, adolescent, dog, and most adults in the area. And heaven help them if they try to fight back "Look what the little beastie did to my child! This just proves they're all savages!" It's easy to perpetuate or worsen racial stereotypes and hatreds. It's very hard to reduce them.
The only justification I can come up with is direct deific intervention on a large scale, and I see no good reason why that would ever happen. I'm sure Paizo could come up with something, but so far their justification seems very forced, and frankly extremely weak. If there was a time skip, then it would be easy to justify, but societal changes like that don't normally just happen overnight.It's been 12 years, actually. That's...not really overnight. That's long enough for an entire generation of goblins to go from toddlers to physically adult. Is that enough for widespread societal change? I dunno, compare 1955 to 1970 (taking longer human lifespans into account).
By sociological standards? In a pre-modern society, yeah, that's pretty much overnight. 1955 to 1970 certainly did have a lot of changes, but that's in a modern society. Access to mass media enables rapid social changes in a way that really hadn't been seen previously.
Besides, 12 years is enough for one generation of goblins raised in captivity to have matured, and just started adventuring. In other words, they could not possibly have effected any change yet, so how are they already benefiting from the change?Also, the problem isn't really on the goblin side. I have no problem with the idea of an individual good goblin, or even a small good goblin tribe. The problem is, whether or not the stereotypes of goblins are accurate, the majority of people will still be affected by them. For societal change to happen, you would normally need multiple generations of the races that are in power changing to be more accepting of goblins, or some kind of event forcing them to be accepting. Think about it: Dwarves live 250-450 years. They are known for being stubborn and resistant to change. They have a racial trait named "Hatred" that gives them a bonus to hit specifically against Orcs and Goblinoids. Do you really think Dwarven society would just change their mind on an ancient racial hatred within a 12 year period? I think the only way that would happen is if the primary Dwarven gods all got together and explicitly told their followers "hey, goblins are cool, don't kill them on sight anymore." And even then I think that would result in a ton of dwarves converting to other religions that don't forbid goblin killing.
Like a Canon goblin
I'd rather see CANNON goblins, as in goblins shot out of cannons... I'd pay to see that. ;)
Like a Canon goblinI'd rather see CANNON goblins, as in goblins shot out of cannons... I'd pay to see that. ;)
WoW is that way. And Iron Kingdoms(Which kinda uses the idea of mechanic/tinker goblin too) is over that way. Though I don't know how well that system is doing these days.
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WoW is that way. And Iron Kingdoms(Which kinda uses the idea of mechanic/tinker goblin too) is over that way. Though I don't know how well that system is doing these days.Like a Canon goblinI'd rather see CANNON goblins, as in goblins shot out of cannons... I'd pay to see that. ;)
Iron kingdoms is actually a really solid system with 1 really terrible supplement. Urban adventures brought some knockout rules that are way too strong and created the "dual wielding crowbars to knock people out" character.
Design wise though, using the same basic layout, and combat statlines as your wargame is pretty genius. Every time they put out a new wargame mini, it has rpg rules baked right in.
WoW is that way. And Iron Kingdoms(Which kinda uses the idea of mechanic/tinker goblin too) is over that way. Though I don't know how well that system is doing these days.Like a Canon goblinI'd rather see CANNON goblins, as in goblins shot out of cannons... I'd pay to see that. ;)Iron kingdoms is actually a really solid system with 1 really terrible supplement. Urban adventures brought some knockout rules that are way too strong and created the "dual wielding crowbars to knock people out" character.
Design wise though, using the same basic layout, and combat statlines as your wargame is pretty genius. Every time they put out a new wargame mini, it has rpg rules baked right in.
I tried the First Edition I suppose, or whatever the rule set was when the wargame was jsut getting started in popularity. If they made it better or reworked it, along with finding players, I'll give it a try.
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WoW is that way. And Iron Kingdoms(Which kinda uses the idea of mechanic/tinker goblin too) is over that way. Though I don't know how well that system is doing these days.Like a Canon goblinI'd rather see CANNON goblins, as in goblins shot out of cannons... I'd pay to see that. ;)Iron kingdoms is actually a really solid system with 1 really terrible supplement. Urban adventures brought some knockout rules that are way too strong and created the "dual wielding crowbars to knock people out" character.
Design wise though, using the same basic layout, and combat statlines as your wargame is pretty genius. Every time they put out a new wargame mini, it has rpg rules baked right in.
Though it's not adviseable because your PC's are actually way better than any Mini in the MAT/RAT/DEF department, and will blow them apart in no time.
Other than that, the system is fine. Not doing so hot these days because it hasn't had a supplement in ages.
WoW is that way. And Iron Kingdoms(Which kinda uses the idea of mechanic/tinker goblin too) is over that way. Though I don't know how well that system is doing these days.Like a Canon goblinI'd rather see CANNON goblins, as in goblins shot out of cannons... I'd pay to see that. ;)Iron kingdoms is actually a really solid system with 1 really terrible supplement. Urban adventures brought some knockout rules that are way too strong and created the "dual wielding crowbars to knock people out" character.
Design wise though, using the same basic layout, and combat statlines as your wargame is pretty genius. Every time they put out a new wargame mini, it has rpg rules baked right in.
Though it's not adviseable because your PC's are actually way better than any Mini in the MAT/RAT/DEF department, and will blow them apart in no time.
Other than that, the system is fine. Not doing so hot these days because it hasn't had a supplement in ages.
Eh, depends on the tier really. at 1 to 3 exp per session, your first 50 exp caps your weapon skills at 7+2d6 so a pretty good soldier's ability. Higher into the veteran tier you run into some ridiculousness, but mat/rat/def isn't really the king of defensives in that game, its armor.
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I'm a little miffed at all the folks saying goblins are great - seeing as how the opportunity for people to be disruptive was the resounding argument against evil alignments in PFS....
While I don't play in PFS, I think it's safe to say that the pro-goblin crowd and the "no evil in PFS" crowd aren't in a Venn Diagram with a lot of overlap...
I'm also not a PFS player, but I'd actually guess the opposite. Most of the "Oh neat, goblins in core!" reactions seem to be from people who want the spontaneity, enthusiasm and quirkiness of goblins but also to play against type and be heroic. The heroic weirdo trope is pretty common. I've done it myself, not with a goblin but that's simply because I've had other inspirations and haven't gotten to a gobo.
I still don't think they make sense in core, but that's because if PCs need to be playing against type, than they're not core by default. I see Core as the standard civilized races that you see all over the place. So I think this doesn't make sense, but also it's not a deal-breaker. Just an odd choice. I just hope we don't start seeing 5% of every town being gobos or something.
But seeing a small population starting to assimilate into wider society would be fine and makes sense. We already know goblins sometimes like to imitate others, and are highly curious. You might get some tribe imitating the local humans cargo-cult style and eventually becoming culturally similar. Generations of Absolonian servant goblins and orphans raised by good-natured folk will also be a source for non-evil goblins. I can see a decent amount coming out of orphanages of temples of good gods. Seranre would probably be popular because she's both big on redemption, and she has fire to appeal to the gobos.
Basically I'm asking for an organic, gradual change towards significant non-psycho goblins fitting into society rather than overnight change or retcon.
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So, I think there are gonna be parts of the bigger cities that are called "Goblintown" with goblins selling junk in little booths and a lot that is a junk yard that collects refuse from the rest of the city.
Seems likely that open minded entrepreneurs would be wise to investigate whether goblins, appropriately motivated to play nice, can be leveraged as an industrious and inexpensive work force for a lot of the dirty jobs that nobody really wants to do.
Like you can get them to gut the fish and also pay them largely in fish guts.
Seems likely that open minded entrepreneurs would be wise to investigate whether goblins, appropriately motivated to play nice, can be leveraged as an industrious and inexpensive work force for a lot of the dirty jobs that nobody really wants to do.
Like you can get them to gut the fish and also pay them largely in fish guts.
Gutting fish, cleaning squid, working in tanneries, checking sewers (and they can see in the dark, to boot- basically, let them live down there in exchange for keeping things running, so to speak), cleaning up at slaughterhouses, cleaning out old pickle barrels for re-use...
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So, I think there are gonna be parts of the bigger cities that are called "Goblintown" with goblins selling junk in little booths and a lot that is a junk yard that collects refuse from the rest of the city.Seems likely that open minded entrepreneurs would be wise to investigate whether goblins, appropriately motivated to play nice, can be leveraged as an industrious and inexpensive work force for a lot of the dirty jobs that nobody really wants to do.
Like you can get them to gut the fish and also pay them largely in fish guts.
IMO something really HUGE/UNIVERSE SPATTERING is going to have to happen in the goblin personality/outlook for this to happen. You have to be incredibly open minded to work with someone that finds your flesh tasty and sets random fires.
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Seems likely that open minded entrepreneurs would be wise to investigate whether goblins, appropriately motivated to play nice, can be leveraged as an industrious and inexpensive work force for a lot of the dirty jobs that nobody really wants to do.
Like you can get them to gut the fish and also pay them largely in fish guts.
Gutting fish, cleaning squid, working in tanneries, checking sewers (and they can see in the dark, to boot- basically, let them live down there in exchange for keeping things running, so to speak), cleaning up at slaughterhouses, cleaning out old pickle barrels for re-use...
Released into trap filled corridors to trigger the traps, Planted in fields to make a renewable source of skin-papyrus, Sent into bear/wolf/animal dens to check if they are inhabited, Marched in front of your army (at spear point) as "Goblin-shields", Forced to be your personal food-taster/Cupbearer, A cheap alternative to the usual virgin sacrifices (heck you might get lucky and get a twofer - a goblin virgin sacrifice!)...
Their uses are legion!
You know...like their uses have always been! :P
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IMO something really HUGE/UNIVERSE SPATTERING is going to have to happen in the goblin personality/outlook for this to happen. You have to be incredibly open minded to work with someone that finds your flesh tasty and sets random fires.
I completely disagree that anything big needs to happen for this. All we need is one creative entrepreneur to impress upon goblins that they are better off working in the city than doing what the goblin boss tells you to do- less danger and the pay is better. Just keep them where not a lot will burn and keep them well-fed in fish guts.
Like I believe a lot of why goblins behave like they do is just a lack of external influences. Like insofar as NPCs are under control of the GM, I'm just going to say that a sufficiency of goblins have performed well in these sorts of "dirty jobs for goblins" experiments that the idea is catching on. Certainly there won't be a goblin underclass everywhere, but in big cosmopolitan cities, absolutely.
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Ya see, I'm just not sure we should be lettin any stinkin' goblins into Core. They're filthy trash diggers, living out in the swamps like a no good rat. Ain't got no decent sense about them, neither. Get em in big enough hordes, and yer fixing for trouble.
And givin' them a job? Who ever heard of such an idea! They can stay where they are if'n they want to, but they ain't welcome here. Out there they know their place, they know they ain't as good as the proper races. It's the natural order of things, the natural peckin' order of the races, and we humans are on top. Elves, dwarves, halflings.. yeah, they're ok so long as they realize whose on top. And at least them half elves and half orcs are half human, or they wouldn't be worth much. But goblins? They ain't got enough sense to recognize their betters. They shouldn't be mixing with us. You hear me? I said no race mixing. Not in my Core. They stay over there, and we'll be right here, as is proper.
Back in my day, them baby eatin' mongrels knew there place, and here they're demanding to be let in, like they deserve to come in to the Core. Who eva heard of such nonsense?
What? Why is everyone looking at me like that?
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I completely disagree that anything big needs to happen for this.
The best i can to is agree to disagee. For me, it seems nonsensical.
All we need is one creative entrepreneur to impress upon goblins that they are better off working in the city than doing what the goblin boss tells you to do- less danger and the pay is better. Just keep them where not a lot will burn and keep them well-fed in fish guts.
That's great for ONE location. And if you have CONSTANT supervision. And there are no vulnerable gnome/humans around. And why are there homeless people going missing. And now the cats and kids are going missing... You know that all started when old Jimdo started using goblin labor...
Like I believe a lot of why goblins behave like they do is just a lack of external influences.
They are portrayed as not having any impulse control. Think ADHD. So unless you have enough fear and consent supervision they go off to eat something, or set a fire, or eat something on fire.
Like insofar as NPCs are under control of the GM, I'm just going to say that a sufficiency of goblins have performed well in these sorts of "dirty jobs for goblins" experiments that the idea is catching on. Certainly there won't be a goblin underclass everywhere, but in big cosmopolitan cities, absolutely.
it just doesn't pass my sense of how things work. 1 goblin maybe... The more you add, the harder to control [both internally controlling themselves and others controlling them] and the more likely one of them is going to forget themselves and roll an old lady and set her on fire for fun...
IMO, you need to start with some kind of clear slate: Start with a pile of goblin babies that have never interacted with other goblins and start from scratch. For instance, all those goblin babies that paladins save get shipped off to the 'goblin isle' orphanage and taught how to behave.
Even then, it only makes sense for THOSE goblins and not the wild ones. You'd need a concerted effort to not just collect babies but kill off wild ones until the civilized ones outnumber the wild ones. So maybe it'd work with a coordinated effort all over the planet to JUST reabilitate some goblins... WHy you might ask? Because you not only need civilized goblins around but you need enough to make it likely that any random goblin isn't after your spleen.
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While I will agree Malk that Goblins don't have to be disruptive, adding a core race into a tabletop roleplaying game that is canonically not welcome in most settlements in the very setting the game takes place in adds a level of difficulty that might make roleplaying them exceedingly difficult (depending on whether or not the GM is lenient and how strict the game's setting adheres to cannon Golarion). Perhaps Goblins would be better off being in a supplemental manual featuring other races that a player can be?
