Now that fighter gets armor and weapon training, isn't it too much to also have exclusive on weapon specialization and other feats.
The weapon training allready comes close to the barbarian rage and with all other feats fighter clearly comes over barbarian even with rage powers?
Any thoughts?
Maybe but the idea is that the Fighters feats are his special abilities so he gets to choose from ones that no one else can get. The Rage powers could be a little better though.
And please don`t come along with those silly "On Off On Off" kind of Rage usage. Thats NOT how rage should be used and is therefore no argument.
Again its just my opinion. I don`t feel like the barbarian is still like he should be, and like we once knew him.
Are you actually looking for reasoned responses?
It is sounding like you are dismissing arguments due to your personal preferences (as opposed to game mechanics, RAW), which in my experience, tends to indicate a discussion to be avoided.
And please don`t come along with those silly "On Off On Off" kind of Rage usage. Thats NOT how rage should be used and is therefore no argument.
Again its just my opinion. I don`t feel like the barbarian is still like he should be, and like we once knew him.
Are you actually looking for reasoned responses?
It is sounding like you are dismissing arguments due to your personal preferences (as opposed to game mechanics, RAW), which in my experience, tends to indicate a discussion to be avoided.
Must be preference, because the rules explicitly state that a barbarian can enter a rage several times per encounter. With tireless rage, you can do it basically immediately, and with roused anger, you can do it once (at a high cost). Or get potions of repeated rage (alias potions of lesser restoration).
Now that fighter gets armor and weapon training, isn't it too much to also have exclusive on weapon specialization and other feats.
The weapon training allready comes close to the barbarian rage and with all other feats fighter clearly comes over barbarian even with rage powers?
Any thoughts?
Never been a huge fan of class specific feats. The other classes couldn't benfit near as much as the fighter can from feat trees since the fighter recieves so many bonus feats there shouldn't be a need for exclusive feats. Make more feat trees worth going down and you wouldn't really need exclusive feats.
I can't really judge this one on paper. I'd have try it in play to really see if there is any inbalance as the on paper inbalance shown looks so small it might not even be an issue.
Now as far as fighter only feats goes. That just makes no sense to me. If it's a feat anyone with a feat should be able to take it if they meet the pre-req. If a class is a prereq then it shouldn't be a feat and it should be a class feature much like how the rouge talent works. Why make it a feat if only a fighter can take it?
In the end it works out the same it just seems more confusing to have fighter only feats vs class features.
I'm going to throw a crazy idea out there...
Way back when (1st Ed) Fighters could specialize. No one else could. Pretty much was their thing. Of course the mechanics worked a whole lot differently, but hey, the other class features are there, more or less (except in the case of the barbarian...who were less berserkers and more...like someone Robert E. Howard would have wrote about)
Then 3rd came around, and changed the system...a fighters big deal got expanded to be feats. That was their class feature. So specialization got turned into feats only usable by fighters, since that was their deal...
And now in PFRPG, the fighter finally got some actual class features to supplement their feats, but really, their defining class feature is...feats. So I suppose they could have written up all those nifty fighter only feats as class features, that met the qualifications to select other feats, that could be taken instead of feats, that were, in fact, feats in all but name...
But why?
There was a reason for fighter-only-feats in 3.5, since the only class feature the fighter got was bonus feats. In PRPG however, there is no reason for this since the fighter gets weapon training. As it is now the fighter gets a superior to hit and damage compared to the barbarian on most levels above 5. The easy fix for this is to replace the fighter prerequisite with a BAB prerequisite of equal level, and this is probably what I will do in my games.
Also throwing my hat in with the "if you had good feat trees you wouldn't need fighter-only feats" crowd.
At this point in the game, Weapon Specialization isn't actually better than any of the other feats a barbarian might take. "Fighter only feats" are a completely artificial way of making the fighter feel special, and they gunk up the system for members of other classes who want to specialize in a weapon.
I am not seeing how having those 8 fighter only feats are such a big issue. 3 of those feats are legacy 3.5 feats, which were fighter only there too.
Of the 68 new feats that were added, only 5 are fighter only feats.
If we compare what the full BAB characters get:
11th barbarian
1 good save
4 skill points per level
Damage Reduction 2/- (all the time)
Trap Sense +3
Improved Uncanny Dodge (no flanking and no sneak attacks)
Greater Rage for 24 rds per day (+6 str and con)
5 Rage powers (which could increase the damage reduction to 5/-)
6 feats
11th Fighter
1 good save
2 skill points per level
Bravery +3
Armor Training 3 (no movement penalties to any armor)
Weapon Training 2 (+2 to attack and damage for 1 weapon group, and +1 to another one)
6 bonus feats
6 feats
11th Paladin
2 good saves
2 skill points per level
Divine Grace (cha modifier added to all saves)
Divine Health (immune to disease)
Aura of Courage (immune to fear)
Aura of Resolve (immune to charm)
Divine Bond
Smite Evil 4/day
3rd level spells
Lay on Hands (swift action to heal themselves)
3 mercies added to each and every lay on hands
Channel Positive Energy
6 feats
11th Ranger
Track bonus
Wild Empathy
Woodland Stride
Evasion
Hunter’s Bond
3rd level spells
3 favored enemies (1 could be at +6 to attack and damage)
2 favored terrains (1 at +4 to initiative)
Quarry (+2 to attack and auto confirm criticals with any weapon used)
3 combat style feats
6 feats
As part of the focus seems to be on barbarians, I will address a few comments on them in particular.
The barbarian cannot be flanked or sneaked attack, so they can run in to be surrounded and not be much better off than the fighter, especially if they had boosted their damage reduction to 5/-.
They also get "buffed" every time that they enter rage.
How is this much weaker than the fighter, or how is the 5 extra fighter only feats unbalanced to the barbarian?
The legacy feats should have been changed to general (well, combat) feats as well.
That's an improvement which Arcana Evolved and Iron Heroes made several years before. The only excuse to restrict feats to a single class is if it directly interfaces with a specific class feature; otherwise you're restricting the versatility of your own system for no reason.
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Also, 'fighter only' is subjective.
We already have, through 'Diverse training' a Ranger 1/Wiz 5/Eldrich Knight 10 counts as a Fighter 10 for feats.
I thought about taking something similar with my arcane legionary giving him a 'half fighter level' to gain access to the fighter feats, but decided against it.
I for one am glad they kept fighter only feats(wish they had more) as a fighter only does fighting so yes he should have feats beyond what others could have. If it was me alot more feats would have been fighter onl
I for one am glad they kept fighter only feats(wish they had more) as a fighter only does fighting so yes he should have feats beyond what others could have. If it was me alot more feats would have been fighter onl
How does getting twice as many feats as anyone else not qualify as "beyond what others could have"?
Making Weapon Specialization fighter-only doesn't make the fighter better. "Weapon Specialization" is no better than any other combat feat, especially in Pathfinder.
It doesn't even make the barbarian worse.
It just means there are less kinds of barbarians that a person can play. And that's bad game design.
Way back when (1st Ed) Fighters could specialize. No one else could. Pretty much was their thing.
Not entirely true. Rangers could specialize. Cavaliers and Paladins got weapons of choice which made them attack as often and gave them the same bonus to hit, just not the extra damage of specialization. Of the "fighter" types only the barbarian recieved nothing of the sort. So if this is legacy stuff it still doesn't explain it all. (Second edition took specialization and gave it only to fighters, though they produced supplment splat books that pretty much opened it up to rangers and paladins, if I recall correctly.)
And to compare some things. While Raging a Barbarian will get:
(Giving him 18,14,16,10,10,10)
+3 Hit +4 Damage + 2 Willsave -2 Armorclass +33 temp. HP.
Makes him +18/+13/+8 at 2W6+10 Damage each hit.
And gives him about 13 AC with a Studded leather.
With 143 HPFighter :
(Giving him 18,16,14,10,10,10 because AC > HP)
Weapon Spez., Gr. Weapon Focus ( are fighter only and for free with the bonus feats as a class features, and he will sure have them as advantage)
+3 to Hit +4 Damage Always
Makes him +18/+13/+8 at 2W6+10 Damage each hit.
And gives him about 22 AC with a Fullplate.
with 87 HPSo its +40% HP against. +40% Armor Class.
And not to forget 4 Feats wicht could translage into a free:
Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Impr. Critical.Just from Classfeatures i would say the difference at lv 11. isn`t that Huge if you don`t coun`t the 4 Extra Feats in and that the Fighter hasn`t to Rage for it, and the Fighter is lasting much longer even with the lower HP. (And about the Willsave the fighter could take Iron Will)
So i hope you see the difference, at 12th. Level the Damage of the Fighter increases by 2 per Hit and goes in lead.
I am not sure if you are being deliberately misleading or not.
In your example, why is the barbarian in studded leather when they could be in a breastplate? Why did your barbarian and fighter not use the same stats in the same place, that is 16 dex or 14 dex for both?
You seem to have not factored in dex to the ACs of your examples.
Please note that the fighter can only use some of those nifty extra feats on specific weapons, while the barbarian can use their class powers on all weapons (improvised or not).
You don't seem to be taking into consideration the large advantage that being immune to sneak attacks and flanking brings into the equation, nor the damage reduction.
Ok maybe i am taking some things not into account.
But Damage Reduction 1/- at lv 7th. isn`t really great. And when it`s reaching 5/- then there are feats to ignore it.
At 11th, it is 2/- all the time. If you choose your rage powers to maximize that, it is 5/- when you rage. I would not say that it is a small advantage.
And the feat to bypass 5/- is 16th level, at which point the barbarian could be at 7/-.
And the Flanking/Sneak is surely nice, but not getting sneaked isn`t a great advantage to a fighter wich has to be hit first. A Barbarian without! this feat would be a Rogue hack feast. But you are right in that i always forget about it. Surely its a slight advantage.
Right, the armor was my fault then, i had something in mind with medium armor only for expense of some features. But it seems as its not the case. Wich doesnt change so much in AC terms. Difference should stay about 7+
Well that no flanking business is worth 2 to AC, bringing the difference down by another 2.
The Ability Scores are just a logical difference.
Not something to make one Class look better.
Barbarian profits more from Con, and Fighter more from Dex.
I believe that is a preference of yours. Most, if not all my players take Con over Dex for fighters.
And with the "on all weapons" surely it might be a advantage in some odd cases. But usually it`s some priority to use a weapon wich best suits your needs. And even a Barbarian should take Weapon Focus.
Again, preferences come into play here. No one is forced to take Weapon Focus, it is a personal choice. I have had a player not take weapon focus or specialization for their fighter, as they played them to be a generalist (use anything).
Also, the "on all weapons" is a feature when you are comparing rage vs weapon specialization.
Fighter-only feats are an exceptionally clunky way of trying to sneak actual class features into the fighter. What I've done instead is to assign a "fighter talent" (analogous to a rogue talent) at every odd level, and made some of the fighter-only feats and all of the new class features into talent options. Any fighter-only feats that didn't become talents become general feats instead.
Fighter-only feats are an exceptionally clunky way of trying to sneak actual class features into the fighter. What I've done instead is to assign a "fighter talent" (analogous to a rogue talent) at every odd level, and made some of the fighter-only feats and all of the new class features into talent options. Any fighter-only feats that didn't become talents become general feats instead.
Interesting. I simply went the route of making them all Combat feats, then gave the Fighter a special ability to "retrain" on Weapon Focus/Specialization and Penetrating Strike unlike other classes (spend a day with a new weapon, apply the feats to it instead). Any Fighter taking the Greater version of these feats applies the effect to an entire Weapon Group rather than a specific weapon.
I gave the Fighter a special ability to "retrain" on Weapon Focus/Specialization and Penetrating Strike unlike other classes
Great minds. Retraining is one of my optional fighter talents.
OK the Ragepower for Damage reduction is a viable argument. Got a point.
Since the other ragepowers doesn`t look that nice.
I am not sure of that. Renewed Vigor, Internal Fortitude and Fearless Rage all look to be fairly decent, with Swift Foot being a nasty surprise to an enemy.
But Penetrating strike i can get with lv 12. and it ignores 5 DR.
Penetrating strike at 12th level is for 5/something, but has no effect on 5/-.
Greater Penetrating strike, at 16th level, works against 10/something or against 5/-.Ok the Flanking is surely nice IF you are in a Situation where you normaly would be considered flanked. So and then it`s still a difference if you get a +2 AC or you`re enemy didn`t get a +2 to Hit.
(a flat +2 Ac would be against EVERY Melee Attack)
Most barbarians that I have seen charge into melee, so are often flanked. So, it is an advantage to the barbarian
With the Preference... No it isn`t its a question of effectivness.
1 AC (+1 Touch) +1 Init. , +1 Ref +1 some Skills > 1 HP/lv and +1 FortReducing the Chance to be hit by an Enemy by probably more than 5% (Situational up to 50%) is surely better than be able to take some little more Damage.
I believe that it is a preference, as you can choose where to put your attribute points. There isn't a rule that forces you to have a higher dex than con when you are a fighter.
We may see more of that now with Armor Training raising the maximum dexterity allowed.
SnipThe Ability Scores are just a logical difference.
Not something to make one Class look better.
Barbarian profits more from Con, and Fighter more from Dex.And with the "on all weapons" surely it might be an advantage in some odd cases. But usually it`s some priority to use a weapon which best suits your needs. And even a Barbarian should take Weapon Focus.
A couple of comments. You stated above AC is greater the HP. So why give your barbarian more HP by upping con? If you give him the same Dex and Breast plate the AC difference is 1 point before the armor training of the fighter that will eventually allow it to get to 3 points higher.
Finally, having to focus on one weapon could be an issue depending on what type of monster you are fighting. Barbarians get to use any weapon they want while fighters really have to pick a "best weapon" and possibly a few back up options for lesser effect.
The fighter is good at fighting that is true, but the barbarian has many options that just are not there for the fighter. And don't forget that in a point build world that most of gaming has gone to, a bonus to attributes that stack with magic is worth a lot.
I think both classes got a huge boost from past versions and they are very viable in play.
But try to look at it this way:
With Rage there is only On or Off, either you are in rage or you aren`t.Please tell me that you can imagine a Barbarian getting in Rage with all wich belongs to it, and after 6 secs he just looks normal, only to become raging again... thats quite absurd.
I will look at it this way: There is a book, it has rules in it, I use those.
Flavour is great, but not at balancing mechanical stuff - especially if the flavour isn't even official.
I could say that fighters with big armours are silly, so I never play them with heavy armour, so paladins have better AC.
He will look like getting a epileptic-attack or such thing.
He will look like that, anyway. Or maybe like he has rabies. Foaming at the mouth and somehow being stronger all of a sudden? Might as well have short bursts of anger.
Only because it`s mechanicaly managable i don`t think it`s a justified behaviour.
Justified? I need to justify myself? You mean I need to tell someone why I just teleported into a legion of Taldane soldiers and messed with their heads that they were suddenly lusting after each other?
Well, I'm not telling. I had my reasons. As far as you're concerned, they were good reasons.
Alright: I won a bet.
Now I'm off to blow those 3 silver pieces on alcohol and hookers! With a blowgun!
And as you stated yourself, that technic is a huge cut in. You have to buy potions of lesser restoration and stuff till you get to 17th. where its permanent usable.
Never said it's perfect. I said it's possible, under certain circumstances.
There was a reason for fighter-only-feats in 3.5, since the only class feature the fighter got was bonus feats. In PRPG however, there is no reason for this since the fighter gets weapon training.
Yeah. And all those other classes only get one or two class abilities, too. :P
But Penetrating strike i can get with lv 12. and it ignores 5 DR.
Not DR/-
I don't mind fighter only feats. Fighter isn't the only class that gets exclusive feats.
Druids, for example, have Natural Spell. Monks get Extra Ki, Paladins get Extra Lay On Hands and Extra Mercy (and so on, with Extra feats). Wizards get Spell Mastery.
In 3.5 the only class feature the fighter had was it's bonus feats. In that context the fighter exclusive feats where acceptable and balanced when compared to the other full BAB classes, the barbarian had it's rage, the ranger it's favored enemy, and the paladin it's smite. All these abilities increased the damage output, and excluding the ranger also to hit. When you compared the other classes abilities to the fighter exclusive feats they where fairly equal.
The problem in PRPG is that the fighter already has a class ability that aproximates the feat tree Weapon Focus > Weapon Specialization > Greater Weapon Focus > Greater Weapon Specialization, namely weapon training. When you combine that with the fighter exclusive feats, and also don't give the other classes anything comparable, it becomes unbalanced.
For example: if you compare the barbarian's to hit and damage with the fighter's you will see that at level 1-3 the barbarian is ahead with it's rage and has a +2 advantage on both compared to the fighter. On level 4 the fighter can take Weapon Specialization, and thereby becomes equal when it comes to damage, and on level 5 the fighter gains weapon training 1, which puts him 1 ahead on damage and 1 behind on to hit.
On level 8 the fighter can take Greater Weapon Focus and is now has the same to hit modifier as the barbarian and is +1 in damage. On level 9 the fighter gains weapon training 2 and is now +1 in to hit and +2 in damage. On level 11 the barbarian's rage increases and the difference is now back to equal in to hit and +1 for the fighter in damage.
This does not last long though, on level 12 the fighter can take Greater Weapon Specialization and is now at +3 damage, and on level 13 weapon training increases to 3 and he's at +1 to hit and +4 damage compared to the barbarian.
The barbarian never catches up, and at level 20 the fighter has +1 to hit and +4 damage compared to the barbarian. In addition the fighter also has Penetrating Strike and Greater Penetrating strike, which increases this difference to up to +14 damage when it comes to creatures with damage resistance.
Some more things to say about barbarians:
They're as fast as fighters in medium armour, and faster than fighters in light armour (which includes mithral breastplate)
They are immune to being flat-footed and being flanked, which will reduce damage against rogues. Rogues can get quite nasty if they do crazy stuff like getting a wand of frost as their weapon against tin cans.
They might have a lower AC, but they get to ignore some weapon damage and get to boost their con, so they can soak up damage. And AC isn't always the answer against damage. Rage is great against fireballs, too.
Barbarians will have nice fort and will saves due to their rage, and might be fearless altogether. Later, they can learn to reroll one will save per rage.
They get to automatically confirm crits a lot sooner than fighters (though it is more limited).
They can learn to keep up with enemies that try to get away from them: No five-foot step, and no withdraw. That barbarian is going to hit you.
They can get a nice bonus on all saving throws (though they have to make saves against harmless spells, too - I think getting such a nice bonus means you'll need those other spells less often, anyway.)
They can get even faster than they already are.
They can hit people who move towards them, even though that is normally not possible. Nasty surprise.
The barbarian isn't all about the attack and damage bonuses. For that, there's the fighter.
That are special feats wich only those classes can use anyway.
Fighters' specialty is fighting. So they get to do stuff with it others can't.
Sure, others could perfect their weapon styles. But not to the degree a fighter does.
Or do you say weapon training needs to be a general class feature?
While we're talking about it: I think a fighter would be plenty capable of targeting weak spots. Where is his sneak attack?
We could play this game all day and night.
Either remake the game from scratch or don't complain that the fighter gets the same thing everybody else gets: some toys no one else can play with.
I don`t see the logic in "Fighters have weapon training, and need on top of it, the other weapontraining feat chain exclusive too.."
Right on. Why should a wizard get burning hands AND fireball, but the fighter doesn't get either one?
In 3.5 the only class feature the fighter had was it's bonus feats.
In PF, all the Fighter has are his bonus feats and exclusive feats, weapon training, armour training, bravery, weapon mastery and armour mastery.
The barbarian gets fast movement, rage, rage powers, uncanny dodge, trap sense, damage reduction, and several other abilities that add to rage.
The bard gets bardic knowledge, bardic performance, spells, versatile performance, lore master, jack-of-all-trades and well-versed.
The cleric gets magic, channel energy, spontaneous casting, and two domains.
The druid gets nature bond, nature sense, wild empathy, woodland stride, trackless step, resist nature's lure, wild shape, venom immunity, a thousand faces, timeless body and, of course, spells.
The monk gets flurry of blows, bonus feats, stunning fist, unarmed strikes, fast movement, an AC bonus, evasion, manoeuvre training, still mind, ki pool, slow fall, high jump, purity of body, wholeness of body, diamond body, abundant step, diamond soul, quivering palm, timeless body, tongue of the sun and moon, empty body and perfect self.
The paladin gets some spells, detect evil, smite evil, divine grace, lay on hands, divine health, mercy, channel positive energy, divine bond, 5 auras (not counting aura of good), and holy champion.
The ranger gets some spells, favoured enemies, track, wild empathy, bonus feats, endurance, hunter's bond, woodland stride, swift tracker, quarry, camouflage, evasion, hide in plain sight and master hunter.
The rogue gets sneak attack, trapfinding, evasion, rogue talents, trap sense, uncanny dodge (and improved), advanced talents and master strike.
The sorcerer gets spells, bloodline powers, bloodline spells, and bloodline feats.
The wizard gets arcane bond, arcane school spells, arcane school powers, and bonus feats.
It's not as if the fighter was now the big resource hog who had all the unique powers.
The problem in PRPG is that the fighter already has a class ability that aproximates the feat tree Weapon Focus > Weapon Specialization > Greater Weapon Focus > Greater Weapon Specialization, namely weapon training. When you combine that with the fighter exclusive feats, and also don't give the other classes anything comparable, it becomes unbalanced.
They have something comparable: Barbarians get rage powers on top of their rage.
Paladins get a smite that is about ten times as good as it was before (you can use it more often, and when you do, it doesn't just last for one attack, but until the sucker is dead! Also, you get double damage against really evil stuff, and your AC is better, too!)
Rangers get a better favoured enemy mechanic (they get a bonus to attack now, and the damage is just damage now, you can use it at any distance), more combat style feats (including the ability to get some of those feats really early!), favoured terrain (which does add to initiative.
And if there's something bad, then there's a ranger who is in his favoured terrain, has his bow in hand, aiming at his favoured enemy, and can unleash a full volley against the poor f!@$er before he can even react.
If there's something worse, it's a ranger who also chose that enemy as his quarry.
On level 8 the fighter can take Greater Weapon Focus and is now has the same to hit modifier as the barbarian and is +1 in damage. On level 9 the fighter gains weapon training 2 and is now +1 in to hit and +2 in damage. On level 11 the barbarian's rage increases and the difference is now back to equal in to hit and +1 for the fighter in damage.
Don't forget the +1 1/2 strength bonus to damage with two-handed weapons, which benefits barbarians.
Fighters' specialty is fighting. So they get to do stuff with it others can't.
The barbarian's specialty is also fighting. Sure, they have some other abilities, but the main reason to take a barbarian is to bash heads.
In 3.5 the barbarian generally had a worse AC than the fighter but compensated by having a higher damage output. This is not true anymore, the fighter has both a higher AC and a higher damage output.
Just build a fighter lv 20. With the amount of Gold listed, and with a focus on THW-fighting and a lv 20 Barbarian. And then compare them.
Capstone fallacy. 20th level comparisons in Pathfinder are meaningless because the 20th level abilities -- which hardly anyone will ever get to use in play -- skew the math in the analysis far enough off to invalidate the whole excercise. Compare, say, 14th level characters instead.
Just build a fighter lv 20. With the amount of Gold listed, and with a focus on THW-fighting and a lv 20 Barbarian. And then compare them.Capstone fallacy. 20th level comparisons in Pathfinder are meaningless because the 20th level abilities -- which hardly anyone will ever get to use in play -- skew the math in the analysis far enough off to invalidate the whole excercise. Compare, say, 14th level characters instead.
Honestly if you are going to do any complete look you need to do them at various levels. How do they compare are level 5, how about 10, maybe then 15. Just because they seem to display a trait when compared at level 15 doesn't mean that same trait appears at level 5 and 10.
But I agree the level 20 capstone abilities make a comparison at level 20 worthless for most discussions.