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*shrug*
Rust Monsters are normally hated by everyone who isn't a monk, but in the case of this monk, the specific likely trumps the general.
I suggest you talk it out with the player. Say, this is my fault but I think I overgeared you. I can't just make the monsters tougher because then they'd be too tough for the fighters. So I plan to pit the party against a rust monster, or several. It'll try to destroy your dagger because I think the dagger is making the game less fun for the fighters and it's my fault you have it. I just wanted to warn you ahead of time, so there's no confusion at the table.
How is that particularly powerful? I'd have thought any Fighter with a non-magic greatsword would do more damage.
Are you letting the monk flurry with the dagger?
Sooner or later this problem may fix itself; the party will continue to level up, the monsters will get tougher, the Fighters will get half-decent magic weapons of their own...
Explain that as an inexperienced GM you made a mistake and ask the player to replace the item with a slightly less broken +1 dagger.
Your problem can be avoided by keeping the Wealth by Level guidelines in mind second level characters should have about 1000gp each that dagger is worth 32000 gp. It is a common and easy mistake almost everyone including me has made to give an NPC a cool item which sounds good and does not seem to make that big a difference until the pc's het hold of it.
Turns out its the same advice as the previous poster
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You could alternatively encourage the player to sell the dagger for 16000gp and use the money to equip the entire party. The party will be stronger than normal for their level, but at least they'll be balanced against one another.
Or you could say that the dagger is evil, and make the monk make Will saves not to want to stab his allies.
That dagger isn't particularly overpowered, as far as I can see. Not only does its damage-dealing potential pale in comparison to just about any two-handed weapon user, but martial power in general is far inferior in the long run to magic power.
Bleed is a far worse effect when used against players, who need to deal with it quickly or die, than when used against monsters, whose unavoidable fate is to die at the hands of the PCs anyway. How many rounds do your battles last? How much extra damage is that bleeding really causing?
And don't go trying to convince me that you're seriously worried about the game-balance-upsetting proclivities of a monk.
<snicker>
Guys, the problem is that the GM gave a +4 weapon to a level 2 character. Assuming the character has absolutely zero other gear (doubtful) she's running around with an 8th level character's worth of stuff. That's going to break some things.
To the OP, you're going to have to just own up to it and tell the player you made a mistake making such a high-grade weapon available. Hopefully she'll be understanding and willing to downgrade it to a more reasonable +1.
Alternative would be leveling them up past the problem. just give out more exp till the problem goes away.
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The best alternative is to do nothing and let the player enjoy his time in the limelight. There is no problem with this situation. Sure, this 2nd level monk with a weapon worthy of an 8th level character will be somewhat more powerful than another 2nd-level monk without magical assistance. But he's not more powerful than his buddy, the 2nd-level barbarian with a 20 STR and a greatsword.
Martials deserve to get nice things, even if they don't always confirm to stilted ideas of WBL.
If you would feel better having the dagger quietly removed without having a rust monster eat it, then work it into a quest. The next time the PCs are walking through a dungeon and there was just a doorway or an opening, have it be a statue of a man or woman or beast or creature with a slit in its ribs. If you really need to subtly hint to them, have the slit glow and the dagger pulse or glow similarly. They slide the dagger in, it turns to stone, becoming part of the statue forever as the statue turns or slides or rotates and they find a treasure room behind it with some gold or gems or something.
And you never admit that you made a mistake... it was all part of your plan.
Hmm kind of like when video games give you a real powerful npc to travel with you but then take it away later.
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You might need to re look at how your player is using the dagger also. It is a Dagger, so not a valid Flurry Weapon, it does a maximum of 1d4+2 damage + str (about the same as a 1d6 weapon) and even though the bleed stacks, it only does damage on the NPCs turn. If he somehow has a way of stacking in flurry and a ki pool attack and hits with all three, its 3d4+6 + str and a total of 3 bleed on the NPCs turn. I can only assume your issue if that he never misses and 3-4 rounds the line he is doing 9+ bleed. Would think at least one of the fighters has a +1 longsword or 2hander that should be outpowering the dagger, assuming it is used correctly at 1 time per round.
Could be wrong, just seems like the item might be misused to have the result you are having issues with. Not cheating, just not understanding certain aspects of the weapon/class.
Sure, this 2nd level monk with a weapon worthy of an 8th level character will be somewhat more powerful than another 2nd-level monk without magical assistance. But he's not more powerful than his buddy, the 2nd-level barbarian with a 20 STR and a greatsword.
Apparently he is more powerful than his buddies, though it's still not clear why.
Rustmonsters, theft, sundering, disarming, shatter are all things that can help.
Guys, the problem is that the GM gave a +4 weapon to a level 2 character. Assuming the character has absolutely zero other gear (doubtful) she's running around with an 8th level character's worth of stuff. That's going to break some things.
A +2 Dagger of Wounding is a weapon that gets +2 to hit and does 1d4+2 damage and 1 bleed damage. If the average foe lasts 3 rounds, that's 7.5 damage per hit in the first round, 6.5 damage in the second round, 5.5 in the third round.
A 300gp masterwork greatsword gets +1 to hit and does 2d6 damage and gives you one-and-a-half strength damage. They sound about equal to me.
I guess you could stab a bunch of different people then run away and let them bleed out. Monks are good at running so their is that.
...assuming none of them can make a DC 15 Heal check.
...assuming none of them can make a DC 15 Heal check.
So we need to stab the one carrying the bandages extra!
Something the players/characters couldn't possibly know, so you can easily claim it worked like this from the start:
The dagger's enchantment is unstable; it'll only work so many times, then deteriorate to a standard +2 dagger, or +1, or even must masterwork. Or maybe it'll even disintegrate once its enchantment runs out.
Guys, the problem is that the GM gave a +4 weapon to a level 2 character. Assuming the character has absolutely zero other gear (doubtful) she's running around with an 8th level character's worth of stuff. That's going to break some things.A +2 Dagger of Wounding is a weapon that gets +2 to hit and does 1d4+2 damage and 1 bleed damage. If the average foe lasts 3 rounds, that's 7.5 damage per hit in the first round, 6.5 damage in the second round, 5.5 in the third round.
A 300gp masterwork greatsword gets +1 to hit and does 2d6 damage and gives you one-and-a-half strength damage. They sound about equal to me.
Assuming that's what the fighters are using.
I didn't see any info on the fighters, so for all we know, they're a pair of halfling sword-and-boarders doling out d6+1.
Let them find out it only does that damage to evil creatures (just a masterwork or +1 dagger against everything else...?)
And/or fling a bunch of creatures that don't bleed (if there are any, otherwise fast heal 1) against the party.. The fighters will catch up eventually, if you give them a "situational weapon" too, and let them shine in a different encounter.
Then hold the WBL a bit (or give a bunch of one-off items) till they all settle back to it...
(think Butterknife of Balduran: really useful against lycanthropes and a couple of other things, but it's still a rubbish butterknife otherwise...)
What is his damage compared to the other player's, and what are they playing?
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That dagger isn't particularly overpowered, as far as I can see. Not only does its damage-dealing potential pale in comparison to just about any two-handed weapon user, but martial power in general is far inferior in the long run to magic power.
Bleed is a far worse effect when used against players, who need to deal with it quickly or die, than when used against monsters, whose unavoidable fate is to die at the hands of the PCs anyway. How many rounds do your battles last? How much extra damage is that bleeding really causing?
And don't go trying to convince me that you're seriously worried about the game-balance-upsetting proclivities of a monk.
<snicker>
Friend. Just ... friend.
The monk is level two. Solidly in the one-shot levels where fighters fight and wizards use crossbows. They are not playing the game you are giving advice for. Sure, it'll even out by the high single digit levels, but in the meantime the GM feels bad because his players feel bad because one of them is trivializing encounters.
What is more, the party consists mostly of fighters. It's pretty obvious this is the sort of party adventure paths are balanced for. Unlike you and I, they don't seem to spend their time reading guides on how to win at a collaborative game. :/ A well built monk can absolutely upset game balance in such a party, I know because I have played just such a monk. It wasn't even unchained. The GM says the dagger has made the monk stronger then the other characters, and since they are present at the table and I am not I am inclined to believe them.
So don't come in here with your sense of superiority and snicker.
That dagger isn't particularly overpowered, as far as I can see. Not only does its damage-dealing potential pale in comparison to just about any two-handed weapon user, but martial power in general is far inferior in the long run to magic power.
Bleed is a far worse effect when used against players, who need to deal with it quickly or die, than when used against monsters, whose unavoidable fate is to die at the hands of the PCs anyway. How many rounds do your battles last? How much extra damage is that bleeding really causing?
And don't go trying to convince me that you're seriously worried about the game-balance-upsetting proclivities of a monk.
<snicker>
Friend. Just ... friend.
The monk is level two. Solidly in the one-shot levels where fighters fight and wizards use crossbows. They are not playing the game you are giving advice for. Sure, it'll even out by the high single digit levels, but in the meantime the GM feels bad because his players feel bad because one of them is trivializing encounters.
What is more, the party consists mostly of fighters. It's pretty obvious this is the sort of party adventure paths are balanced for. Unlike you and I, they don't seem to spend their time reading guides on how to win at a collaborative game. :/ A well built monk can absolutely upset game balance in such a party, I know because I have played just such a monk. It wasn't even unchained. The GM says the dagger has made the monk stronger then the other characters, and since they are present at the table and I am not I am inclined to believe them.
So don't come in here with your sense of superiority and snicker.
Agreed. You can always tell the people who spend more time online theorycrafting the most powerful thing than they do having practical table experience by the way they handwave the actual power level of adventure paths and modules and whether or not a thing is FUN at a table rather than whether the numbers add up to over/under an arbitrary line of power.
You could alternatively encourage the player to sell the dagger for 16000gp and use the money to equip the entire party. The party will be stronger than normal for their level, but at least they'll be balanced against one another.
Or you could say that the dagger is evil, and make the monk make Will saves not to want to stab his allies.
I agree with this. If you sell the dagger and split the money 4 ways, the party will be slightly ahead of the curve for a level 3 party. Only issue is how do you finagle the monk giving up their toy for the greater good. Also, there are potentially social dynamics at play here (some parties are bad at splitting loot).
But even in a one shot "everybody gets a fun toy" is preferable to "one person gets a really fun toy".
If the monk is out-damaging the fighters, it's not the weapon that's making the difference, though it's hard to know without seeing the details. Let's make an estimate.
Assume a fairly normal 15-point buy and poorly designed fighters against a typical CR3 encounter, average AC15, and a better chained monk.
Human 2F, 17 Str with longsword & shield, no weapon focus or PA. That's +5 for 1d8+3, so 55% x 7.5 x 1.1 = DPR 4.5375
Dwarf 2F, 15 Str with battleaxe & shield, no weapon focus or PA. That's +5 for 1d8+2, so 50% x 6.5 x 1.1 = DPR 3.575
Human 2cMk, 15 Str with +2 dagger, no weapon focus or PA. That's +5 for 1d4+4, so 55% x 6.5 x 1.1 = DPR 3.9325 + bleed
Human 2cMk, 15 Str, unarmed flurry = +2/+2 for 1d6+2. That's 40% x 5.5 x 1.05 x 2 = 4.62 + stunning fist
So apart from the bleed, he'd often be better off using unarmed attacks than the dagger (depending on the opponent). And he's behind the human and only slightly ahead of the dwarf, both of whom get ahead with any sensible feat or weapon choices (masterwork? 2H?).
The answers have been complete and accurate this far so I'll just chime in with a fun thing.
If I were playing a monk and had a dagger of wounding at level 2 I'd probably try to go for broke and hunt down a gigantic dumb animal with no spells or flight.
Buy scroll of fly, buy 2 scrolls of true strike, wizard flys over T-rex , casts true strike, throws dagger, goes away and waits about 10 minutes and then goes back to retrieve the dagger from the colossal corpse.
Collect your 6400 exp rinse repeat :-p
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@Mudfoot
By your own math, assuming the bleed only procs once, the dagger has better DPR then the flurry. Average damage for the fighters gets worse if they're using non-composite bows or two weapon fighting, or if they prioritized CON over strength. (Thinking back to my first PC, a paladin way back in the day, that's exactly what I did. I also made sure to have positive INT and WIS, I think all my stats were around the same.) If the party is not well built, battles could easily drag on for a number of rounds, exasperating the issue.
It's easy to forget, when you've been at the game for a while, how steep the learning curve is, especially without internet guides.
@treyn92 Bleed effects specifically do not stack unless they do different types of damage. That + allowing it with flurry are why it seemed OP.
"A wounding weapon deals 1 point of bleed damage when it hits a creature. Multiple hits from a wounding weapon increase the bleed damage."
--Excerpt, Wounding weapon property, PFSRD.
No worries, I almost did that myself 'til I thought to double-check the Wounding text. :)
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In any case, welcome to the hobby and the community!
If you ever need help with anything, you know who to ask. :)
Just get them fight s bunch of skeletons or other undead (immune to bleed).
Also, you realise a person can either "move and make 1 attack" or "make all of their attacks (like flurry)", so as long as they move more than 5 feet they can only dish out 1 attack, bar special feats.
I'd just let it be. Give the others something equivalent and in a couple of levels it won't matter. Other advice you got is pretty solid too, that's just what I would do.
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Theres a few ways you can go: destroy the weapon, nerf the weapon, or create a situation where the player wants to get rid of the weapon. In any of these scenarios talk to the player about what youre doing and why.
My personal favourite? Have the weapon start talking. Have it start egging the monk on for blood. Make it beg to be fed, to promise that if the monk feeds it, the dagger can make him more powerful. And when he tries to let go of the dagger, start asking for will saves.
Honestly, other than not letting the monk get his flurry with it, I don't think I'd really do anything about the dagger. It's a pretty sweet item mainly because of the +2 bonus to hit, but it's not particularly game breaking because its base damage is low.
The monk will shine with it now, but the shine from the item will fade in a couple of levels. By 4th level, his +3 BAB +2 dagger will be matched by a fighter's +4 BAB +1 weapon and his unarmed damage will be 1d8 - matching the average damage of the +2 dagger.
That dagger isn't particularly overpowered, as far as I can see. Not only does its damage-dealing potential pale in comparison to just about any two-handed weapon user, but martial power in general is far inferior in the long run to magic power.
Bleed is a far worse effect when used against players, who need to deal with it quickly or die, than when used against monsters, whose unavoidable fate is to die at the hands of the PCs anyway. How many rounds do your battles last? How much extra damage is that bleeding really causing?
And don't go trying to convince me that you're seriously worried about the game-balance-upsetting proclivities of a monk.
<snicker>
Friend. Just ... friend.
The monk is level two. Solidly in the one-shot levels where fighters fight and wizards use crossbows. They are not playing the game you are giving advice for. Sure, it'll even out by the high single digit levels, but in the meantime the GM feels bad because his players feel bad because one of them is trivializing encounters.
What is more, the party consists mostly of fighters. It's pretty obvious this is the sort of party adventure paths are balanced for. Unlike you and I, they don't seem to spend their time reading guides on how to win at a collaborative game. :/ A well built monk can absolutely upset game balance in such a party, I know because I have played just such a monk. It wasn't even unchained. The GM says the dagger has made the monk stronger then the other characters, and since they are present at the table and I am not I am inclined to believe them.
So don't come in here with your sense of superiority and snicker.
Get a load of this guy, talking bout 'sense of superiority'.
He's a level 2 monk. His buddy could be a half elf fighter with 17 str and a heavy flail. Weapon Focus, toughness, skill focus: perception & iron will.
Bam, +6/1d10+4 is now outdoing the monk's wounding dagger.
Y'all up in here pretending like you need to be a hyper optimized ogrekin raging barbarian to outdamage a monk with a steak knife.
Hmm kind of like when video games give you a real powerful npc to travel with you but then take it away later.
So *that's* why Gandalf kept leaving the party!
Groundhog, I must admit some measure of confusion.
I honestly can't see how your post relates to ... well, anything. It is a complete non sequitor to the prior conversation; I am trying to think of ways you might have interpreted my own post that lends what you said the slightest iota of coherence, but am failing. It seems to exist entirely independently both of the posts it quotes and claims to respond to, but also the thread in general. It appears I somehow failed to convey what I meant so extraordinarily you thought I was ... I have no idea as to what I must have conveyed! For that, you have my apologies.
In plainer speech, perhaps, or perhaps just in speech leaving less to inference, I would like to explain what Treyn, Wheldrake, and myself were saying, in the hopes that we can clear up this misunderstanding that has left me so confused and you typing inanities. In as unbiased speech as I am able:
In the first post, Treyn was DMing a campaign. He dropped a magic item that was more powerful than he had ought, leaving one PC significantly stronger than the other (A mistake I think we've all made at some point or other). He asked the community how he might fix this problem, and got a number of suggestions.
In Wheldrake's first post, Wheldrake noted that if the fighters in the party had combat optimal builds (or even semi-optimal builds, such as your half elf flail fighter) they could out damage a monk with a wounding dagger quite easily. Instead of taking this as evidence that the fighters were not combat optimal, Wheldrake seemed to take it as evidence that the problem the DM had noted (the monk outdamaging everyone else and trivializing encounters) did not exist, and said as much in a tone I found infuriating. Wheldrake also drug the caster/martial disparity, a problem I find unrelated, into this otherwise palatable thread, an act I found unconscionable.
In my admittedly curt response to Wheldrake, I noted that the problem of the wounding dagger not existing was both flatly contradicted by a primary source and based on assumptions about the game that, in fact, vary from table to table, party to party, and level to level. I also took offense to what I perceived his attitude to be, and was tactlessly rude.
Your own post, to my understanding, speaks of that which could be, rather than what is, but to what end I cannot tell. With gusto you inform us that prioritizing strength and using a two handed weapon, you can build a PC that can outdamage a knife fighter, which is news to approximately no one. I am not sure if I should be vaguely insulted that you think "we" think you need to be an ogrekin barbarian to outdamage a monk with a steak knife, or just confused at the sheer randomness of it all. The more I read your post the less sense it makes! Like a reverse koan.
It's likely my own fault, my failure to communicate properly, that makes your post sound so inane. Or perhaps it's my failure to understand, and your post follows from the conversation preceding it after all! In either case, I'm glad we got the chance to sort this out.
TTFN, AA.