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When I played through Mummy's Mask, we had an elf inquisitor/living monolith (low spellcasting), ratfolk rogue, undine gunslinger, and my dwarf cleric of Nethys. Even with a fairly low-magic group, we fared pretty well through that Adventure Path.
Although it's certainly nice to have an arcane spellcaster in Rise of the Runelords, you could probably fare pretty well with that roster.
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I had a similar problem with our RotR party. Ranger, champion of Irori, hunter, cleric, so I had to bring my witch to balance it out.
Even so, lacking arcane just means you won't have a lot of magical might to overcome problems and take advantage of the magic you find. You'll definitely want to take a different tack when approaching challenges than a standard team.
As I understand it Paizo's adventure paths mostly don't need much optimisation and in fact may be too easy if higher powered characters are used.
As it is you've got enough damage dealers to mince the enemy quickly, a cleric to buff and yourself and the ranger to cover skills. Depending on what actual class the dervish is they might have more than damage to contribute too.
With solid saving throws and having a Cleric that can (presumably) Channel Energy, you guys will be just fine. We found out the hard way lacking a Cleric's ability to Channel and have full Divine Spellcasting with access to condition removals was a very bad idea...
Never said anything about Area of Effect healing, but alright...
You mention "Human Dervish" -- which class? Multiple classes have a "* Dervish" archetype. This includes 2 in Bard, but I assume from your mention of lack of arcane casting that this isn't either of the Bard Dervish archetypes.
With 5 members including a cleric, I think you'll be fine. Party balance is overrated anyway IMO.
im going to guess the area of effect thing is because you brought up channel energy. thats a 30 foot burst around the caster to heal allies and kill undead.
For this AP, it has other uses, and I'm not just referring to...
So it's not like Channel Energy is solely for out-of-combat healing or in-combat killing, there are other certain aspects of its usage that we've required use for in order to overcome encounters. Lacking Channel Energy and proper Cleric spellcasting progression (that has many of its own problems) has resulted in character deaths, full stop.
The ironic thing is that we have a Warpriest, Inquisitor, and Paladin in the party, but because none of them can properly Channel Energy, and because they have bad spellcasting progression, we were literally powerless against several obstacles that assumed you were playing a Cleric.
I mean, RotRL, as well as several other APs, are balanced around Cleric, Wizard, Fighter, and Rogue party compositions. Not having those means you're gonna have a bad time simply because you're playing stuff that the adventure path simply did not account for.
Cleric with channel energy is completely unnecessary for this AP. My players did not have one until level 13 and never noticed the absence.
If your GM aggressively targets your weaknesses you may have problems but that is poor practice until the endgame, you will miss a wizard or other arcane caster but should be able to manage without
If you have godly saving throws, they probably aren't necessary.
Unfortunately, not everyone has perfect saves, so the idea that it's unnecessary doesn't make much sense, especially when I've had player deaths due to lack of Clerics, their Channel Energy, and their condition removal spellcasting progression.
I am DMing for a group that has no full casters. The party healer is an alchemist, the most arcane of the bunch. We are starting book 6 this Sunday. They have been having a great time. As has been said plan your strategy and have at it.
There *are* a couple parts that will be very difficult without any arcane caster. Not necessarily fights.
If you have godly saving throws, they probably aren't necessary.
Unfortunately, not everyone has perfect saves, so the idea that it's unnecessary doesn't make much sense, especially when I've had player deaths due to lack of Clerics, their Channel Energy, and their condition removal spellcasting progression.
I feel you are grossly exagerating the problem. A fairly standard party with only 1 character having what I would consider good saves had no serious problems, given your viewpoint without a cleric they should have had serious problems. They did not and as a GM the problems you are worrying about are mainly colour the dangerous encounters in that bit are completely different
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I feel you are grossly exagerating the problem. A fairly standard party with only 1 character having what I would consider good saves had no serious problems, given your viewpoint without a cleric they should have had serious problems. They did not and as a GM the problems you are worrying about are mainly colour the dangerous encounters in that bit are completely differentIf you have godly saving throws, they probably aren't necessary.
Unfortunately, not everyone has perfect saves, so the idea that it's unnecessary doesn't make much sense, especially when I've had player deaths due to lack of Clerics, their Channel Energy, and their condition removal spellcasting progression.
I would certainly hope he's grossly exaggerating the problem, given he's saying lack of a cleric has caused player deaths! The worst I've ever seen is character deaths.
{. . .}
Your group may have enjoyed a more traditional bard with so many melee (cleric included) but that's about it.
I'm almost tempted to suggest a Skald. Raging Song won't be completely duplicative of the Bardic Performance of the Dervish Dancer or Dawnflower Dervish Bard (not sure which one the original poster meant), although spellcasting allies (especially the Bard) will have to learn to cycle between accepting or not accepting Inspired Rage (unless they somehow get Mad Magic, although Mad Magic doesn't get the Bard off the hook for potential interference between Inspired Rage and Bardic Performance); alternatively, the Spell Warrior archetype trades this out for pretty good buffing of your allies' weapons; as another alternative, Urban Skald replaces Inspired Rage with Controlled Inspired Rage, which is less powerful but doesn't interfere with skill usage, meaning that Mad Magic would be enough for any of your spellcasters to get past the remaining downside of it (Court Poet also trades out Inspired Rage, but the replacement won't be of much help to your particular type of allies, except for a buff to the Bard). Furthermore, at 5th level Spell Kenning can get you a Bard, Cleric, or Sorcerer/Wizard spell that no one in your party knows once per day (eventually more up to 3 times per day), as long as you are high enough level to cast it -- try to avoid picking an archetype that trades this out (this contradicts the advice I gave above about Spell Warrior). Note that you also get Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat at 1st level -- the combination of Scribe Scroll and Spell Kenning seems almost brokenly powerful. Note: Since most of the group is built for melee, build for archery (Skalds have martial weapon proficiency, which helps).
I feel you are grossly exagerating the problem. A fairly standard party with only 1 character having what I would consider good saves had no serious problems, given your viewpoint without a cleric they should have had serious problems. They did not and as a GM the problems you are worrying about are mainly colour the dangerous encounters in that bit are completely differentIf you have godly saving throws, they probably aren't necessary.
Unfortunately, not everyone has perfect saves, so the idea that it's unnecessary doesn't make much sense, especially when I've had player deaths due to lack of Clerics, their Channel Energy, and their condition removal spellcasting progression.
Not really. In the second dungeon we've had several failed saves against...
that resulted in a character death simply because we had no way to remove the condition that resulted in the death. Nobody to cast it, either in-party or from a mercenary, and he died because of it, resulting in another fight that (thankfully) went a little better.
In the dungeon after that, bad saves resulted in a familiar death simply because of too much damage, and if our Divine party members didn't have the option to Channel Energy (as weak as it was), would've resulted in a TPK against...
And we even still almost had a PC death with them using it. Even still had yet another PC death against...
The book after that we had to deal with...
That required numerous saves to avoid the bad stuff. Our Paladin rolled two 2's in a row in a later encounter (one for the save, one for the Coup De Grace), and he was instagibbed. He could've been saved if we had a Cleric that could remove the condition that resulted in his death, but we didn't have one of those. Heck, if we had a Cleric with proper channeling, several of those saves didn't even have to be made simply because it would have trivialized the relevant encounters!
Even my character almost died when it came to the boss of that book simply because of bad saves. The only thing that kept my character alive was GM FIAT and rolling a Natural 20 on my last hit point to stabilize. He otherwise would've likewise died on that fight.
And this is just the first two books. The third book tones it down some from what I've played so far, but the fact of the matter is that over 1/3 of the book basically demanded good saves and condition removals as failsafes. Us lacking that stuff resulted in fairly easy PC deaths.
The party I'm running for consists of a Gunslinger, a Brawler, a Rogue and a Druid. We're just entering Book Two, and so far, the lack of arcane magic hasn't hurt them *yet*.
What they are running into problems with are:
1. A lack of people skilled in Arcane knowledge and History, both of which tend to be Knowledges chosen by Arcane Casters.
2. The inability to make use of the looted spellbooks they've come across (only one so far, but there are more coming.)
If you plan smartly, play carefully, and stock up on consumables to cover the healing and condition removal issues you're going to run into (not might run into, but will run into), you'll probably be fine.
And if not? Well, when someone dies, they can reroll a new character who is an arcane caster.
You mention "Human Dervish" -- which class? Multiple classes have a "* Dervish" archetype. This includes 2 in Bard, but I assume from your mention of lack of arcane casting that this isn't either of the Bard Dervish archetypes.
Actually I'm playing the Dervish in the campaign, and she is Dervish Dancer (not the Dawnflower) archetype for Bard.
Appreciate in the input, going to stick with Mr. Handy. If we wipe we wipe. :)
And to clarify above: cleric is forgemaster archetype. Restricted to 1 domain (instead of 2) artifice domain only, loses channeling ability. He's going self-buff build.And the dervish is also self-buffing bard whirling dervish.
Should be interesting.
Sounds like the party has too many self serving loners.
Actually I'm playing the Dervish in the campaign, and she is Dervish Dancer (not the Dawnflower) archetype for Bard.You mention "Human Dervish" -- which class? Multiple classes have a "* Dervish" archetype. This includes 2 in Bard, but I assume from your mention of lack of arcane casting that this isn't either of the Bard Dervish archetypes.
Care to elaborate a bit more?
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Appreciate in the input, going to stick with Mr. Handy. If we wipe we wipe. :)
And to clarify above: cleric is forgemaster archetype. Restricted to 1 domain (instead of 2) artifice domain only, loses channeling ability. He's going self-buff build.And the dervish is also self-buffing bard whirling dervish.
Should be interesting.
Sounds like the party has too many self serving loners.
Care to elaborate a bit more?Actually I'm playing the Dervish in the campaign, and she is Dervish Dancer (not the Dawnflower) archetype for Bard.You mention "Human Dervish" -- which class? Multiple classes have a "* Dervish" archetype. This includes 2 in Bard, but I assume from your mention of lack of arcane casting that this isn't either of the Bard Dervish archetypes.
Since Lanaya was direct heir for inheritance it was expected Lanaya would serve in Magnimar’s military city state as an Officer, like many other non-direct heir nobles. And thus, Lanaya quickly received military training from at first her tutors, but these lessons bored Lanaya nearly to ends. Lanaya would often attempt sneak out attend many of the plays, and theaters of Magnimar, and even attending the various Varisian caravan shows that would pass by. Thus, as Lanaya grew closer of age she wasn’t the best candidate into military school as she lacked much martial prowess or the magical abilities of battle mages, Lanaya’s officer candidacy was initially rejected. But through commission purchase Lanaya officially became Cornet of Magnimar.
Due to Lanaya’s low officer candidacy score Lanaya was placed as logistic officer position as a minor post almost as if to hide her away. With no wars in sight or pressing logistic needs, aside for occasional armory inspection or war planning sections, Lanaya had many idle time. This idle time and lack of interested of her position annoyed Lanaya nearly to end as she struggled to entertain herself throughout the day. Thus, Lanaya hired private tutor learn several bardic lessons, learning how to act and dance, in which she discovered she was a prodigy in the later.
However early into Lanaya’s bardic lessons she opted to take a visit of Sandpoint towards to enjoy the small-town atmosphere. With an approved leave on her hand, Lanaya quickly set off the Sandpoint for few days of relaxation away from the hustle and bustle Magnimar.
[SPOILER=Character]Lanaya
Female human bard (dervish dancer) 1 (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 32)
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +4
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Defense
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AC 16, touch 14, flat-footed 12 (+2 armor, +3 Dex + 1 Dodge)
hp 10 (1d8+2)
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee kukri +3 (1d4+3/18-20) or
. . scimitar +3 (1d6+3/18-20)
Ranged shortbow +3 (1d6/×3)
Special Attacks battle dance: inspire courage
Bard (Dervish Dancer) Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +4)
. . 1st (2/day)—charm person (DC 14), grease
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, light, prestidigitation, read magic
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Statistics
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Str 13, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 16
Base Atk +0; CMB +1; CMD 14
Feats Arcane Strike, Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Agile Weapon
Traits merchant family, savant
Skills Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7, Disguise +7, Perception +4, Perform (act) +7, Perform (dance) +11, Sense Motive +4, Spellcraft +5, Use Magic Device +7
Languages Common, Varisian
SQ battle dance, fleet
Other Gear leather armor, arrows (20), kukri, scimitar, shortbow, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, flint and steel, ink, inkpen, journal[UE], masterwork tool, mess kit[UE], mirror, pot, signet ring, silk rope (50 ft.), soap, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, 14 gp, 1 sp, 9 cp
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Battle Dance (move action, 7 rounds/day) Battle dances can create bardic performance effects only on self.
Battle Dance: Inspire Courage +1 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Fleet (Su) Gain an enhancement bonus to speed when battle dancing.
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House rules includes Elphant in the room feat tax, Agile Weapon, background skills (I picked linguistics and perform oratory but not listed here) and Scimitar is considered to be agile/finesse weapon. Yes she is a melee focus character but depending on what happens she is willing to pick up multitarget buff spells (such as good hope, haste etc). Depending on roleplay may pick up rogue or Paladin dip. And in few levels pick up a few knowledge ranks to as she gains levels.
No Arcane Caster?
Omae wa mou shindeiru
you just need 2 things to be the happy dude in Rise of the runelords, but i'm not going to say why, of course, i dont want to blow your history up.
1-An arcane caster
2- A paladin. Paladins wins this AP.
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There’s something else that an Arcane caster usually brings to the table that could put you at a big disadvantage... crafting. The Forgemaster will have Craft Magic Arms and Armor, which may be enough with such a Martial heavy group. But Craft Wonderous, Rings, Wands, and Scribe Scroll are all extremely helpful. Or if the GM is compensating for the lack of them in the loot. I would see if the Forgemaster or Bard are at least willing to take Craft Wonderous Item. You may find enough to not need it, but being able to upgrade and max things out will help a lot.
I don’t think Channel is necessary for the AP. Some kind of emergency healing would be helpful, but you don’t need a dedicated channeler. If the bard takes a couple of healing spells or eventually carries a wand of cure serious at higher levels that gives you two characters who can heal in an emergency. Plus pick up some first aid gloves.
You’ll run into some out of combat inconveniences, like no teleport or dimension door, but Cleric has a lot of utility spells. So I think you’ll be ok there.
Why not play an Eldritch Archer Magus? That gives you ranged dps, some arcane, high int for skill checks, but plays very different to a wizard.
I mean play whatever, but if youre worried, magus might be a good compromise
You might want to pool party loot and pick up a Wand of Lesser Restoration.
Not really. In the second dungeon we've had several failed saves against...
We agree to disagree.
I have run the campaign with a party containing no cleric until late in book 5. There were no serious issues , the cleric was added after the only PC death which was death by rolling really badly to a Plane shift spell.(2 more pc's died in the final battle including the cleric but that is a bit different I was trying hard to kill them all there)None of the stuff you panic about is unnusual all AP's have something like those encounters and I have never seen the Requirement for a cleric.
Unfortunately I was not a good fit for the group personality-wise.
** spoiler omitted **
Is it wrong I'm not surprised at all?
Hey folks actually my guy did pretty well during the first session with my railgun TK toon.
Unfortunately I was not a good fit for the group personality-wise.
** spoiler omitted **Nevertheless thanks for all the advice and input I'm sure I'll find another group sometime. :)
Good luck on that. Sounds like that was a terrible experience.