Priyd's page

It's also relevant to note that unlike barbarians, bloodragers aren't restricted by alignment. You can't have a palibarian or monkbarian by default, though grey paladins (which kind of suck) and I think martial artist monks can get around that.

Monkrager or bloodadin though? Completely kosher.

As for slayer vs inquisitor I believe there are some rare cases where slayer is preferred.

Is that so? That's an annoying oversight on my part. I was doing research and everything said to take opportune party and riposte, but that wasn't a valid pick anymore (errata I guess) and I just picked anything that looked useful. Totally missed the "you have no panche" clause :/

Any suggestion on replacement?

Stop arguing. It's a distraction from the actual topic, debating an irrelevant point. Crafting is largely banned. Casters are better than martials at crafting due to broader access to the requirements and not really needing to invest in weapons and armor, or as many feats much of the time. That doesn't mean That martials can't craft, or benefit from crafting abilities, just that it's more difficult and more of an investment limiting what they can do elsewhere. It's not important. All it does is make hp go down faster and safer, which isn't the point.

The point is, martials, especially fighters but all martials, don't have as many or as useful narrative tools, and the ones they do get often are narrow in function and sacrifice key capabilities of the class to get.

Best thing you can do is role play it in character. Be the penny pinching finger waggler everyone expects and act accordingly. Once they require your services and you refuse on grounds of prior payment not received, they'll put up or shut up. Besides, asking one player to shoulder the whole burden of itemized wealth requirements (wands, scrolls, etc.) seems fairly selfish of THEM.

And that's not even touching on crafting wondrous items, something they're quite certainly going to want you to provide to them.

he said his cleric traded channels away and only has access to artifice domain.

so aoe healing isn't going to be a thing most likely.

as long as you have like some clw wands or something to wave around between combats though, it's probably fine.

Seducer witch is also an option for long term cons. If you've already had relations with someone, attempts to magically manipulate them become much harder to resist. Combine with dance of kindled desires for laffs, if you want to stick with bard for 4 levels (minimum) to sacrifice a second level spell for it. Alternatively you can just blow a feat.

Shame none of the non-bard bardic performance archetypes are all oratory instead of dance.

Plus anyone with high charisma and/or a high-dc mind whammy will work in general.

I second the water dancer vote. Just dont take sidestep secret or nature's whisper with it because it wont be compatible.

you might want to consider a couple of levels in life oracle though for life link. a spirit guide archetype would net you a wandering spirit like a shaman at level 4, so you have access to all sorts of nifty new spells. plus you can use your second level oracle spell slots on shield other so that you can save your paladin slots for more useful things.

since youre going to be jesus, you may as well have the ability to UNAMBIGUOUSLY 100% WITHOUT FAIL determine the guilt or innocence of people accused of crimes unjustly in your travels too. (well, there's technically a fail state if they have anti-divinations up, but it has a different behaviour so its still quite telling). behold the very small at only 3 levels prestige class INHERITOR'S CRUSADER

that's about all i got just now, but thats a good few options you've been cumulatively presented with :)

probably not, but i think thats a rules question.

what i'd like to know about deities is what the source is that people keep pulling these different deity oaths from (and i mean that literally, not as in the oathbound paladin archetype variant). mostly it comes up as regards to paladin, but thats probably because they have one of the most friction-inducing requirements ever. not going to get into that here though, because it always devolves into meaningless bickering, and everyone pretty much knows the score already anyway.

Skill points should probably be raised for martial characters that don't favor intellect. Rogue's are doing okay at their 8 per level, but they have a LOT they need to handle that they aren't necessarily equipped to in a raw statistical sense. Most Rogues favor some blend of dexterity and/or strength, but are often expected to handle the bulk of Charisma skills unless there's someone better suited on hand or the wizard, too concerned with knowing everything and crafting fancy magics to bother developing anything resembling interpersonal finesse, just tosses a silent stilled Dominate Person and calls it good. Plus EVERYONE needs Wisdom skills, like PERCEPTION, THE MOST IMPORTANT SKILL IN THE GAME.

Paladins, Fighters, and Chained Monks? 2 per level. just 2. what are you supposed to do with 2 skill points? not much. granted you can always get smarter, but then you cripple your ability to perform in fields dictated by your actual main stat (Charisma, Strength, and Wisdom respectively). God forbid you have sub-10 intellect and actually LOSE skill points per level. And relying on feats and traits to make up the difference doesn't help much, as a lot of classes are actually extremely feat-tight to make work.

So spread skill points out across multiple stats instead of only benefiting Wizards, Witches, and Maguses (Magi?) without hindering performance in your hostile-territory roles to make skill gain a little less unequal in the long term of a campaign, and boost up the really really low skill classes to make a bit more versatile of a start.

And perhaps consider also raising the cap on skill ranks from equal to level to say...level+3 for a class skill, level+1 for a cross-class skill. as a rough example.

none of this fixes the issue late game, but it should make for a more even narrative power curve earlier on. i expect things to not start getting too out of hand until around 10th level or so.

the best part is, wizards, magi, and witches would have the same degree of access to all of this, so they would be perfectly capable of engaging in mundane play without wasting spells on most challenges. the more skills-oriented classes would be "better" at it for a while, but depending on what spells they're willing to use up they could level the playing field or even slightly surpass the martial - but only for a very limited time frame, so rather than something you always do, it becomes something you do when experiencing difficulties to "brute-force" your way through.

its just a thought.

So it took a fair while, but I think i have a pretty good setup now for a DEX/CHA Eldritch Scion. It's an unarmed and unarmored fighter to avoid needing to spend a lot of potential wealth on weapons and armor, which casts like a full 20th level, has the spell slots of an 18th level, and the features of a 12th level with other stuff. Toward the end I started running out of things I wanted, so I just grabbed some metamagic. Its not the best idea with a spontaneous caster, so something else might actually be better. I don't have enough system mastery yet to tell what though. The Arcanas are basically a crapshoot too.

I leave it in your expert hands to...most likely rip it apart. I don't mind if its a less than ideal premise, as long as the character actually accomplishes the premise effectively, by the way.

Ah, shame. You think PFS would go for the (pretty obvious) RAI, or straight RAW interpretation? With Society play since a character and their gains would be valid anywhere in the world without actually knowing anyone you're dealing with, that leaves little room for GM-by-GM fiat, I would think. So best to plan around the most probable outcome.

Athaleon wrote:

It's like I said: Schroedinger's Fighter always has Schroedinger's Magic Item somewhere in his Schroedinger's Handy Haversack. He looted it from Schroedinger's Dungeon, or else looted enough gold from there to buy it from Schroedinger's Magic Item Emporium.

Schroedinger's Magic Item Emporium is pretty much the default rule of the game, if you get to a big enough city. And yes, you can choose to wander the world from major city to major city for the purposes of shopping, and you can commission an item. Meanwhile, as an adventurer, you get money, so that part is kosher.

But I agree, comparing a Fighter that exists in a quantum state of simultaneously owning every magic item they could possibly own is not fair play.

and yet he still manages to fall behind, thus illustrating the core principal being argued over in a thread that has nothing to do with arguing over whether it does or does not exist.

the premise is clear - under the acceptance of the principal, how does one attempt to rectify it? no, it isn't simple. no, it isn't easy. but its a conversation that we can't even have properly if we get bogged down in arguing whether the principal exists in the first place.

so please, future posters, even if you don't necessarily agree with the principal at the root of the discussion, bring forth your ideas as if you did agree.

otherwise we're just chasing our own tails here, really.

Ah, i meant Youthful Mischief as the Elf Trait, not Persuasive. i just caught that. my mistake.

it also doesnt account for bloodline, arcana, bonus feats, or spell selection. i'll definitely be picking up a familiar, but im not sure if it will be from the bloodline or the arcana, or what the familiar will be, but im definitely getting one. theyre too useful not to if you have the option.

If you already have levels in a prestige class before you pick up this feat,and you assign it as your favored prestige class, are the hit points/skill points retroactive to all levels previously gained within that class? or does it only count toward levels gained after gaining the feat?

Favored Prestige Class

You have come to favor a certain prestige class, either because you are particularly devoted to the class’s cause, have trained more than most others have for that specific role, or have simply been destined to excel in the prestige class all along. Regardless of the reason, levels gained in your favored prestige class grant additional benefits in a way similar to those you gain for taking levels in your base favored class.

Benefit(s): Choose one prestige class and one skill that is a class skill for that prestige class. Whenever you gain a level in that prestige class, you receive +1 hit point or +1 skill rank. You gain a +2 bonus on checks using the skill you chose from that prestige class’s class skills. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Skill Focus, but does not stack with a bonus granted by any other feat (such as Magical Aptitude or Persuasive).

The choice of favored prestige class cannot be changed once you make it. Levels in a favored prestige class are not the same as levels in a regular favored class, and as such levels in a favored prestige class can never be used to qualify or gain favored class options. You can have only one favored prestige class, but can still have a favored base class as well.

You can select this feat before you gain levels in your chosen favored prestige class, but the benefits of the feat do not apply until you actually gain at least 1 level in that prestige class.

Normal: Prestige classes cannot be a favored class, and cannot benefit from the additional hit point or skill rank afforded to those who take levels in a favored class.

The only topics ive been able to find on this feat are with regards to gaining race/class combo special benefits or abusing aligned classes and/or half-elf multitalent to try and "gain a level" in both the prestige class and the aligned base class at the same time for extra health/skills. i can already see fairly plainly that neither of those things is possible. i just want to know about previous levels gained.

not sure about finessing dragon style, but the rest of it looks handy.

here's what im looking at so far.

Arshea Cultist Ifrit ChLv20

7Str/14(+2)Dex/11Con/10Int/7(-2)Wis/18(+2)Cha

1st Level Scaled Fist Unchained Monk
2nd Level Dual Cursed [Lame+?(Covetous maybe? immune to fatigue + fatigue penalty seems practical)] Lore Oracle
3rd-7th Levels Eldritch Scion Spell Dancer Magus
8th-13th Levels Mystery Cultist
14th-20th Probably Magus, but maybe Cultist

Ability Growths:

4th) +CHA
8th) +CHA
12th) +CHA
16th) +CHA
20th) +CHA

Racials: Desert Mirage, Efreeti Magic, Mostly Human, Wildfire Heart

Traits: Magical Knack (Magus), Adopted (Elf, able to take due to Mostly Human), Persuasive (Elf-only, Bonus from Adopted), Hedonistic (Drawback for 3rd Trait), Irrepressible (shore up bad will saves)

Feats:

1st Level) Racial Heritage (Elf) - to qualify for Spell Dancer Magus
3rd Level) Weapon Finesse (Unarmed) - strength dump part 1. needs agile amulet of fists for part 2.
5th Level) Combat Expertise - opportunity attacks to take advantage of dexterity
7th Level) Celestial Devotion - can prestige next level
9th Level) Favored Prestige Class (Mystery Cultist) - feat tax for prestigious, but a good one imo.
11th Level) Prestigious Spellcaster (Mystery Cultist) - cuts out the dead level of caster progression, preserving spell levels.
13th Level) Leadership - high charisma = better minions. plus i can use them as devotion fodder as long as they're willing. which, with super high charisma and diplomacy, they all but certainly will be.)
15th Level) ?
17th Level) ?
19th Level) ?

apparently unchained monk isn't legal with most if not all classic monk archetypes, so im not sure if scaled fist would even be workable. :/

I remember seeing bladed dash mentioned somewhere else.

why is that not a thing for fighters? that should TOTALLY be a thing for fighters. high-level ones maybe, but still, its way too cool to not be a thing. :P

thanks for the spell tips, and ill have to look up the new snowball.

what does the ** mean on stone call and versatile weapon?

EDIT: Snowball no longer forces a stagger save. How disappointing.

@breti

interesting advice. ive been mainly looking at damage-dealing spells, and obviously the low level ones cap out early which is why intensify is so attractive.

anyone know a few good spells to use without metamagic at any given level? i imagine debuffs like glitterdust, snowball, and mudball would become more attractive since its harder to boost up the more iconic spells like shocking grasp and chill touch.

that is certainly a build, yes. it loses bonuses to saves, but casts at nearly full progression.

i dont typically aim to cast above 6th level, but having access to higher spell slots would benefit mystery cultist's summon celestial, since it would need to be quickened to be useful. incidentally level 8 in cultist is JUST ENOUGH to hit summon celestial 2.

small caveat on your monk charisma suggestion though - by replacing wisdom, it becomes a charisma bonus. the oracle mysteries replace dexterity bonus to become a charisma bonus. charisma bonus + charisma bonus doesn't play nicely together. about all it would be worth is improved unarmed and a feat. and that not inherently a bad thing, just its part of the function of the class that isn't quite working. i do believe i remember something about scaled fist having +cha to hit though?

the only shame is the loss of divine grace boosted saves. paladin feels like a no-brainer dip for any charisma class. if scaled fist doesnt work, easy enough to slide paladin back into place and eat one more caster level. effective oracle level of 17, 19 with the +2 CL trait. although unless theres a really good reason to get oracle specifically to a high level, might go all the way to cultist 10. many revelations don't interest me too much.

so it would be something like monk 1/oracle 6/mystery cultist 10/oracle 3 or paladin 2/oracle 5/mystery cultist 10/oracle 3.

the way i read it, spell combat allows a standard action spell as a free action while full attacking, and spell strike allows that spell (as long as range = touch) to be used through a weapon strike as a free attack on top of the full attack (with all the associated penalties, but thats fine with good bonuses to hit), and that's awesome. even better, you can apply fun toys like intensify spell or rime spell at no penalties other than a higher spell slot, because you're a prepared caster.

but the eldritch scion is spontaneous. attempting to apply metamagic makes it a full round action, and therefore invalid with spell combat without quicken spell (assuming ive even read that right) or spontaneous metafocus. both of which have serious issues, in that quicken adds FOUR levels to a spell in addition to the other metamagic you're trying to compensate for, and metafocus applies to only one spell per feat taken. which defeats the purpose of a spontaneous caster, which is flexibility and adaptability.

i don't understand how this is supposed to work.

Rods and wands and the like explicitly state theyre still a full round action for spontaneous casters anyway. Was very disapointed.

Ah my mistake then. And would that allow for other metamagic to be applied and still cast in a reasonable time frame?

Pretty much the topic. As far as I can tell, magus in general requires quickened spells to function. Eldrich scion is a spontaneous caster with elements of the bloodrager, and applying metamagic to spontaneous requires a full-round action. That means quickening doesn't work. And that intensifying spells, the main gimmick of the magus (intensified shocking grasp weapons) doesn't work.

So how exactly is it supposed to be used properly? Note im not asking for things like "don't do it's a bad idea" Or what have you. Just how it's intended to function.

alright cool your jets boys.

this thread isnt about arguing, its about trying to ave everyone contribute without needing to worry about one player "letting" everyone else contribute.

that stood out to me. the casters need to "let" the martials do things and then the disparity doesnt exist. except, if a disparity exists and is simply not acted upon, is it really solved?

does the caster have fun holding back when he could clearly do more just to "let" someone else act? or does he find it boring and a waste of his powers?

does the martial have fun KNOWING that he was "allowed" to have an action only on the good graces of the caster, who could full well have ended an encounter themselves already, effectively if not literally? or does he feel growing resentment, that simply by virtue of selecting a class he enjoyed that his role boils down to "carry the caster's loot"?

does the gm enjoy this paradigm, needing to try and develop scenarios that allow everyone to keep engaged when one character's effective power and utility are SO MUCH higher than another's? Because anything interesting for the caster is going to be way above the martial's pay grade, and anything interesting for the martial is going to be trivial for the caster.

Although this is why I enjoy "partial casters" like the magus and the paladin. All the cool flashy magic stuff in a fight, none of the reality bending outside it. Mostly. Some low level spells still trivialize noncombat challenges, but all the REALLY gamebreaking stuff is at the top.

thats not a half-bad concept to implement in some way for specifically fighters. other classes have resources you can consider using for the same general purpose, but has anyone seen the movie WANTED?

the main characters were able to tap into an overabundance of adrenaline to perform absolutely superhuman feats, without necessarily dipping into the superNATURAL. it wasn't magic, it was just the normal, expected result of breaking the body's limits, and they were able to do this largely at-will, though some major actions required a moment of windup first.

you could call them "Adrenaline Points"

Continuing.

Anyway a way to provide access to mundane solutions, and have enough points for UMD as well as the mandatory essentials like perception and sense motive, it might be worth it to detach skill points from intelligence alone. Not completely, just not ONLY Intelligence. Gain from intelligence at half speed and gain from "main stat".

For example a monk could gain points from wisdom mod AND 1/2 intelligence mod. A bard could gain from charisma instead, a fighter fro strength, and so pon. Whatever your most important stat is. Wizards, magus, and their ilk, to be fair, could get 1.5x int

I've been thinking on it, and I think skills are part of the problem too. Everyone needs skills, to varying degrees, and as class baselines most non-rogues don't have many, even the wizard.

The problem comes in where skill points are tied SOLELY to intelligence. Generally having poor intelligence to focus on strength, dexterity, and constitution, let alone poor MAD monks who ALSO need wisdom, many non-arcane magic classes (and bards) don't have room for a decent amount of intelligence.

This means they lack skill points, and by extension mundane solutions to things. On mobile so will continue.

okay that business with the metamagic? i think that might be off the table. as an eldritch scion, you become a spontaneous caster. apparently spontaneous casters can't apply metamagic except as a full round action. that severely hinders the ability to commit touch spells, due to needing to move and actually touch the target.

i was looking for ways to counteract this deficiency, and all i found was a feat to cast a single spell at normal cast time. yeah it can be taken multiple times, but that robs you of valuable feats for other things, like martial capabilities or - more importantly to the people most likely to invest in metamagic in the first place, the casters - other metamagic feats.

so im puzzled now. i thought i had something actually fairly workable, and which resolved the problems of the previous build at the cost of some of its utility, which honestly i was fine with. but now this comes up.

what do i do about this?

Ah I see. That IS a good trick, especially as a way to carefully inflate spell levels to get more casts of a given useful one and get better results from uninflates ones. Clever.

Looking at races, a dhampir can take a hit to con in order to boost both str and cha. That would result in 12 con and 13 str, enough for a small bonus. And they could self-damage with the negative energy spell to heal significantly if necessary.

Not sure how the minor healing of lay on hands would work out though since RAI it's implied to be a positive energy effect (heal the living, harm the undead) but RAW it doesn't actually explicitly say it's any kind of energy at all. At paladin 2 it wouldn't be strong, but stacking charisma would give it tons of casts per day for healing between fights.

So for the 3 Arcana i was thinking Close Range to make ranged touch spells as melee touch, accurate strike to make melee attacks as melee touch attacks to make using spell combat easier, and...maybe familiar for a stat boost and utility buddy like a wand jockey or something? although hasted assault is nice too, in case nobody else can haste. and pool strike would put the arcane pool to work without a weapon, and spell shield can make for a handy defense booster. hard to pick.

Speaking of wands, can they be used for touch spells? If so, how? Do you smack someone with it like a baton or something?

Why magical lineage? Magical knack seems more useful in multiclass to boost spells per day/spells known.

Is there something I'm missing?

I still don't think it will fix the problem, not entirely anyway, but I agree that it sounds more fun. And if nothing else, fun is a good place to start.

So since its been a while, I decided to attempt a fresh start at this myself. or well, rather i stumbled upon something that could i think, potentially work with the basic idea very well.

In order to do that competently though...sacrifices had to be made. No monk levels means no Evasion. Cutting Oracle levels means no Wandering Spirit (shame, i really like the flexibility they provide).

It also trades away some of the HP support that was available (life link hex from life spirit, shield other as a 2nd level Oracle spell) and the ability to punch things competently.

But it still meets the core idea of requiring minimal weaponry or armor, and boosting knowledge skills. Also I get to use strength as a dump stat now.

New 15 point buy?

STR: 7 DEX: 7 CON: 16 INT: 10 WIS: 7 CHA: 18 before racial mods

didn't trade any int because i didn't want skill growth penalties since im only getting 2+int for most levels, if not all of them. luckily any permanent boosts are retroactive. besides, just to see if i could i tried to do it and the numbers were far too fiddly to be worth a whole 1 extra con.

so what is this new build doing? wading right into melee and...not punching people. or stabbing them. just...lightly touching them. just a bit.

and then they die horribly. or at least, that's the hope.

in no particular order we have....

->Paladin 2 (Unknown Archetype)

->Oracle 1 (Are there even any archetypes that do anything notable at level 1?)

->Mystery Cultist 6 (Which will be linked and grant +5 Effective Caster Level to...)

->Magus 11 (Eldritch Scion)

The build still uses the Noble Scion (War) and Extra Revelation feats.

Now here's where it gets dicey again, as I'm sure you no doubt notice - Magus's are explicitly weapon-users. Sword on one hand, Spell in the other. I get that. And with no strength or dexterity, weapon strikes are going to be dicey at best which is why i'm forgoing that.

on the bright side, it grants access to bloodrager abilities with perfect conversion and spells on a slight delay, which is nice, has better BAB than a sorcerer (necessary to get those touches in), casts spontaneously like a sorcerer, still gets the magus arcana gimmick (though at 11th level it just barely misses out on a 4th arcana. sad.) and manages to reach 6th level spellcasting as the capstone of the build.

so what do you think?

Condensing martial feats sounds good for everyone really, not just pure fighters. Even some metamagic feats, though i haven't delved too deep into that particular rabbit hole.

it seems like you need so many feats just to hit your target at all, let alone do any real damage, that you have no room for any of the FUN stuff.

if average play sees at most 12 levels of play, at one feat per two levels, thats only 6 feats, barring bonus feats from certain classes and the extra one humans can start with as compensation for not having cool racial superpowers and only one positive mod (at least they get to pick where it goes though).

that wouldn't be too bad normally. except you need feats to get feats, oftentimes ones that you either aren't interested in or do little or even nothing for you. these should just be baked into the better feats and weapon/armor proficiencies.

Priyd, the main problem with this build is that it doesn't contribute to combat. Are you OK with being deadweight during fights? You can probably survive and make knowledge checks, but that's about it.

It may need a ground-up redesign if you want to have effective combat options. Are you open to that?

Your design goals are to have an extremely knowledgeable character who goes around without weapons or armor, but when confronted proves deceptively difficult to kill - is that correct? Does it have to be charisma-based? Any other design goals that I'm missing?

I wouldn't say it was TOTALLY dead weight in a fight since there's broad access to various healing abilities, and smite always shreds things, but thats pretty much it yeah. Knowledgeable, Persuasive, persistent as a roach, and requiring minimal resources to drain from the rest of the group (the less one person needs, the more other people get to have).

And i would certainly prefer charisma as a basis, since its so easy to assign knowledge to charisma, and charisma also lends itself to persuasion, intimidation, and negotiation. plus as a follower of arshea, even without the cultist class (the boons just take longer to come online) it reduces the requirement for armor substantially, especially since the same skillset allowing for charisma to knowledge can increase defense even further.

anyway, it's mostly just a thought experiment as i try to improve my skills with the game, so i don't mind a ground-up retooling of the thing as long as you can explain things thoroughly and simply. like...explain it like im a five year old. because in terms of this game, i basically am. just a five year old who reads and learns more quickly than normal (for a five year old) :P

oh and if TOTALLY unarmed isn't really feasible, packing a concealed dagger or something (which the dancer garb allows for) is perfectly fine.

So for the moment, assume we toss muse and skald for being totally superfluous. if we take extra revelation, we can pick up sidestep secret and dump the archetype from monk. this converts the ac bonus to wisdom, meaning it does nothing unless some major bonuses come along, but that's okay. taking it to second level nets evasion, allowing rogue to be dumped.

That leaves us with the following so far.

Total Level 18

Paladin 2 - Smite Evil, Divine Grace

Monk 2 - Empty-Handed damage, Bonus Feat x2, Evasion

Oracle 4 - Lore Mastery, Sidestep Secret, Wandering Spirits [Need to dump a feat on Extra Revelation, as the versatility of Wandering Spirits are VERY worth losing the 3rd level revelation]

Mystery Cultist 10 - Arshea Boons, Summon Celestial [Need a way to reduce cast time], Fervor as a Charisma Rage for giggles (which might pair well with the Lame curse for Oracles to get around the fatigue)

and now i realize i accidentally made a 21 level setup originally and nobody noticed. that's amusing.

now we have a more streamlined edition that still has a couple levels to mess with, and the different paths mentioned above (options 1 and 2) are still valid lines of inquiry.

reduced reliance on weapons and armor is still a desirable feature, as is putting charisma to work.

Priyd wrote:

Monk is actually working as intended, as it converts monks normal wis to ac into cha to ac. the +1 per level is just icing. its actually cha mod+1.

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Edit: Although that being said, now that i read closer it acts in addition to dex instead of replacing it, it does get dragged down by the (intentionally) low dex. could drop monk, take extra revelation, and grab sidestep secret from oracle. unsure if that conflicts with other bonuses present. only reason i didnt set up to do so already was because i was fairly certain it does conflict with monk

I'm gonna assume you meant 'in addition to wis', since that's what the normal monk is granted as a bonus to AC.

Your (intentionally) low wis wouldn't matter since you only add your wisdom bonus to AC, not wisdom modifier.
I do recommend you to take sidestep secret, as I assumed you already did.

Monk (Water Dancer) is however not 'working as intended', since it doesn't convert normal Wis to AC into Cha to AC. That archetype doesn't modify the normal AC bonus ability at all. What you're looking for is the Scaled Fist archetype.

I didn't say it did. I said dex for a reason - the monk's wisdom bonus is applied in addition to dexterity instead of as a substitution. Meaning low dexterity drags down the wisdom based defenses, which become charisma instead of wisdom because:

"He uses his Charisma score instead of his Wisdom score to determine the size of his ki pool and the DC and effects of monk class features."

the monk feature in question being

"When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD."

because it adds instead of substitutes like sidestep secret, nature's whispers, or the lunar version whatever that is, dex still drags it down, but it can't stack on top of a charisma substitution over dexterity because theyre both "charisma bonuses" now.

which makes me kind of sad, but is understandable. it's the same ruling as with the scaled fist because it's doing the same thing, except also giving a small dodge bonus BASED ON charisma, which will stack with the main aspect of the feature.

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as for librarian, i meant the function not the literal job description lol. although i could probably get away with tossing 1 rank into everything with enough skill points, you're right. would take a bit of time to ramp up though since these are mostly 2-4 point classes with a +0 int bonus. figured bardic knowledge would make it a nonissue, while also allowing for a short burst of flaming fists.

Monk is actually working as intended, as it converts monks normal wis to ac into cha to ac. the +1 per level is just icing. its actually cha mod+1.

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Edit: Although that being said, now that i read closer it acts in addition to dex instead of replacing it, it does get dragged down by the (intentionally) low dex. could drop monk, take extra revelation, and grab sidestep secret from oracle. unsure if that conflicts with other bonuses present. only reason i didnt set up to do so already was because i was fairly certain it does conflict with monk

end edit
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Librarian duty is managed by lore master converting knowledge bonus from int to cha and bardic lore allowing untrained checks.

That's what DOES work. Now the bad bits - I completely misread muse and assumed it was similar to monk. Also, although summon celestial doesn't care about oracle caster levels, running on cultist level instead, I completely missed that it's a full round action. That was my bad, and it's a big problem.

So I see two ways of proceeding here, as frankly I'm not comfortable with 7th+ level spellcasting and how reality smashing it is.

Option 1) swap muse for something else, continue as a cultist, and figure out how to reduce the cast time on summon celestial. Rely on angels to deal damage for me while focusing on defense and clerical duties.

Option 2) swap out muse AND cultist (still grabbing the obedience feat, it just kicks in later - total level 16) and figure out how to hit things better. and/or maybe inflict touch spells. because why not. hands aren't occupied anyway.

Character Lv 20 (in no particular order)

paladin 2 (archetype undecided) - Divine Grace
monk 1 (water dancer) - Nereid's Grace
oracle 4 (spirit guide) [lore] - Lore Keeper
devoted muse 1 - Artful Defense
skald 1 (spell warrior) - Bardic Knowledge
rogue 2 (unchained) - Evasion, Weapon Finesse
mystery cultist 10 (oracle) - Celestial Boon (Arshea), Summon Celestial, Casting as Oracle 13.

Feats Needed: Weapon Finesse [Rogue], Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Celestial Obedience

Feats WANTED: Noble Scion (War) Twist Away, Leadership, Two-Weapon Fighting

Objective: Difficult to kill librarian with little to no reliance on arms and armor. summons and/or followers provide damage and protection, and able to fight on the front lines safely dealing (slight) bare handed damage.

15 point buy:

13 Str
7 Dex
13 Con
10 Int
7 Wis
18 Cha

Race: Any +Cha that doesnt -Str (Example: Kryton-Spawn Tiefling)

items needed: Dancer's Garb

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note: neried's grace undine racial spell (its different from the monk thing) as a custom magic item would be awesome too, even if it does have a cap. it would only cost....36,000gp as a first level spell cast by an 18th level witch for continuous-while-worn effect.

So this is a bit different from the character I'm ACTUALLY using currently, but I thought I'd keep sharp and try to get better at...pretty much this whole thing really. So I generated another character. Well, mostly. No magic items or feats were assigned for specific levels or anything, I'm still a beginner.

I just thought I'd put it up and see if anyone had anything to say, maybe ways to make it better, or correcting any particularly fundamental misunderstandings I might have, and so on.

I'll put it on a subsequent post.

Treasure can be contentious out of character when people cant grow up.

Treasure can be contentious in-character too when someone has character traits or class features that require a steady reward stream to avoid eating penalties.

It's why the covetous oracle curse concerns me somewhat as appealing as it is. UMD as a class skill with a bonus too? yes please. fairly simple requirements to satisfy? great...except on those times where its NOT so simple.

i do think some combination of the priority roll system and buy from loot should work great though.

have people buy what they want, and if theres a conflict of interest, roll priority.

protector would be an obvious one to prevent me from getting toasted by stray direct damage when im already continuously losing health (and LoHing it off when it gets low enough to warrant giving up a Full Attack of course) from life link and shield other.

but im going to look at alternatives too. while trying to figure out what sorts of familiars i can even get.

and i do know boon companion can give them a nice boost in levels to make up for a low caster level so that they can grant new abilities, in case theres a point where that's worth it.

i mean in theory my ac with mithral and my saves from...well, "being a paladin" really (good saves seem to be a largely inherent aspect of the class) should mean it isn't super important but every little bit helps, no?

Priyd wrote:

okay, im definitely taking the bloodrager.

i dont think most of the first level bloodline features are very useful for a (primarily) ranged character, but i just learned something interesting:

i can swap that first level feature for a bloodline familiar. familiars can do all kinds of neat stuff with archetypes or improved familiar. the downside of this choice being you gain spells known and spells per day at a reduced rate, but bloodragers cant cast s~*! until like 4th level anyway so that doesnt even come into play on a 1 level dip.

...so how the hell do archetypes work exactly? im trying to figure out the rules but its kind of confusing, so a dumbed down primer would be very helpful.

The familiar will have your base saves, BAB, and half your hit points. It uses it's own attributes to modify saves and attack bonus. With only a single level of Bloodrager, you will not get the other improvements from the table on pg. 83 of the CRB (Int, Natural Armor Adjustment, Speak with Master, etc) that come with higher level.

Archetypes generally swap one feature for another within a class. You can't modify the same class feature twice nor can you swap out a feature you've already given up. You can add more than one archetype provided these restrictions are obeyed.

Let's take the Urban Bloodrager as an example.

It changes class skills, so you couldn't combine it with any other archetype that changed skills even if the skills changed were completely different.

They don't have proficiency with shields, so you couldn't combine it with an archetype that changes weapon or armor proficiency.

They have Controlled Bloodrage which changes how the rage works. You couldn't combine this with another archetype that also modifies the Bloodrage.

They give away Blood Santuary in exchange for Restrained Magic.

They do not get DR, instead getting the ability to change their class spell list.

You can take it with any Bloodline, although they had suggestions of which ones...

ah, i should have been more specific, im sorry. i meant how FAMILIAR archetypes work. im generally pretty clear on Class archetypes. also it would help to figure out how familiar selection itself works.

and im sorry i just caught that massive multipost issue. i dont know how or why that happened but ill clear those out

okay, im definitely taking the bloodrager.

i dont think most of the first level bloodline features are very useful for a (primarily) ranged character, but i just learned something interesting:

i can swap that first level feature for a bloodline familiar. familiars can do all kinds of neat stuff with archetypes or improved familiar. the downside of this choice being you gain spells known and spells per day at a reduced rate, but bloodragers cant cast s!!+ until like 4th level anyway so that doesnt even come into play on a 1 level dip.

...so how the hell do archetypes work exactly? im trying to figure out the rules but its kind of confusing, so a dumbed down primer would be very helpful.

Lol these stories are amazing. By all means keep an coming.

How should I introduce myself then, a drunken bow cleric with a temper? :p

I'll look at what buffs can apply to ammo and see whether I want that or an insane supernatural clusterf$!# (crossblooded [destined, celestial] urban prowler at the end of the world bloodrager) that will just lead me into being angrier and drunker. Thank God for the beer God.

...realistically between murder, anger, greed, lust, a vain desire for glory, and drunken disorderly I am a TERRIBLE paladin. Who lets people like me into the order anyway?

By the way, I'm not against moving into melee range if it's necessary, though obviously i'd want to avoid it whenever possible. Im not making a frontliner here. Should I blow a feat on improvised weapon, use a potential defiance on preparing bowstaff, or just eat the -4 to-hit and rely on rage/smite to compensate do you think?

okay i found the urbans.

they arent actually shown on the srd in the main class listing. you need to actively go out looking for them. thats bothersome.

so urban skald. i don't actually think its as good as the spell warrior for only one level, because while you can increase your physical stats in any combination you want, it has to be done in sets of 2, and its not as potent as the barbarian or bloodrager.

although it can be given to somebody else, but a property like flaming from the spell warrior would probably equal to more damage compared to a +2 to strength, although +1 AC and to-hit with ranged/finesse from the +2 dexterity IS nice.

urban bloodrager....this one actually excites me a little bit. the reason why is because there's an archetype related to catfolk that it seems to not conflict with, the prowler at world's end.

prowler does force you to take the destined bloodline, but if theres other good bloodlines then one of those might be able to be taken as a crossblooded? bloodragers are surprisingly flexible with what you can have them potentially do or be.

ah its just a thing i heard from an associate. something like double or triple price. he may have been thinking of that other game, since most of his suggestions involve complicated interactions with various classes and books that i haven't seen on the srd at all. largely of the fullcaster variety, which isn't something that appeals to me right now.

and urban bloodrager and skald im having a little trouble finding on the srd? spell warrior is pretty nice though. give up scribing (seems not super useful unless fullcaster, though i guess i could make some low end stuff like poison cures to save for later) to pick up counterspell (granted i could only counter up to 3rd level and that would only be something i could do once or twice) and be able to give any (one) person (including myself) a free weapon buff with enrage? it is a nice support.

SO ive had time to poke the first level of bloodrager and skald with a stick.

if im not mistaken, their respective enrages run on a separate counter to the normal version of rage, given that they have a different name? by itself that's kind of interesting, and could give me an effective rage rounds per day boost equivalent to the extra rage feat. on the other hand, they dont increase dexterity so the chance to hit with a bow wouldn't go up.

skald also packs cantrips and bardic knowledge, so if i really need gravity bow i can buy a gravity bow wand and install it with the wandweapon spell rather than relying on the arcane arrow feature to cast it innately.

is it true that by paying an amount extra you can get a wand with infinite charges? if so, rather than using wandweapon myself, i could pay to have it applied permanently once i get my adaptibow. of course, that's a pretty expensive proposition, but given my charisma is high i can probably earn money by dancing in cities to make up the difference. just need to pay for a dancer's garb to increase my profits.

either way, excluding the ability to cast spells when both hands are occupied with a bow, skald seems to be objectively superior to arcane archer, at least at first level. and including it, couldn't i just hold a bow with one hand and use the other to cast? bows dont seem like a huge hinderance to spellcasting.

bloodrager's bloodlines are of interest as well, but mostly only apply to melee attacks, like if i need to club somebody with my bow, which is a little disappointing.

Sideromancer, that is exceptionally interesting role play and I may have to co-opt aspects of that to what degree I can as the idealist subconsciously drinking away the trauma of her prior death. :3

I could do that.

Or...I could do exactly none of that. No offense, but even if I am re-evaluating the value of the specific archetype selected, the basic skeleton of what this character wants to be is established: a face and supporter that can still contribute to the fight - from relative safety. That, and I'm rather fond of the Oracle 4 / Barbarian 1 setup we all worked so hard to develop.

I do find it kind of funny that you propose shooting things in the face from x feet away is not sufficiently valorous for a paladin and in the same breath suggest going into a SNEAK ATTACK class though. Good way to turn convention on its head. I admit I considered 2 levels in rogue for a time myself for Evasion since Divine Grace provides such good saves. Why take half damage from spells when you can take none? But ultimately that was discarded with the revelation of the Savage Technologist/Drunken Brute Barbarian 1. Not enough levels to still get evasion, as Paladin 14 is far more important than Paladin 15.

I have no regrets about it though, I'm happy with the current results. It's just a question of if its possible to do anything meaningful with the last remaining level, and if a different archetype might be best while remaining in-character. With that in mind, I'll take a look at this Bloodrager class, see if it might not be compatible. It sounds mildly interesting on the face of it. Barbarian prestige?

Baba Ganoush wrote:

Part of the issue is that it is incumbent on the melee specialists to make balanced choices. If they make int a dump skill, then yes they won't have many skill points. If they dump every gold piece into maximizing their weapon DPR instead of taking one less +1 one there or +2 less on the str belt they could afford a lot of little items that open up a lot of non-combat options.

This in and of itself is imbalanced as there is no such incumbency on magic specialists to behave similarly. The wizard optimizing to the hilt to be as good at casting as he can possibly get is also rewarded with more bonus skill ranks than he knows what to do with and can with very limited investment gain a number of capabilities that don't even dip into their spell slots, like taking up face duties because the game is tripping over itself with options to steal charisma-based skills from charisma-based characters and give them to intelligence-based characters instead while no such reversal exists.

So the fighter, who already prioritizes three to four stats to the wizard's one, is going to be making the choice between being overspecialized and useless outside of combat because he tried to build to be good at fighting or being spread thinly and therefore being mediocre at two or three things, including the fighting he took the class for in the first place. Tom O' Fourteens, who has a +2 in every stat, can do a bit more than your average fighter. Because he's a pile of fourteens, he doesn't excel at any of it.

The wizard, optimizing his one useful attribute, gets all the skill ranks he wants and therefore increases his own options by NOT making balanced choices and focusing on pumping his god-stat.

you know i always did find that weird. ROGUES are supposed to be the stereotypical skill monkey class, but theyre expected to focus on dexterity, and to a lesser degree strength in order to not be garbage in combat and fall over in a stiff breeze.

but...skill points come from intellect. what does the wizard care that he isn't necessarily getting class skill bonuses in things when he can fit ranks up to his level easily in everything that's important and have plenty left over for other stuff? granted they arent getting ability score bonuses in a lot of things either, and possibly even penalties for things like climb and swim (irrelevant because fly) but i can't say with any certainty that that's a large enough difference to matter.