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Organized Play Member. 40 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character. 1 alias.


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Opinions on alchemy seem pretty split as a solid generalist vs just lousy at everything. Interesting, if slightly concerning.

Rogue was always a favorite of mine from back in the day of actual dnd (before i decided i liked pathfinder better), and unchained did some really neat things for making their skill points really DO something. Are you suggesting rogue base+caster progression or caster base+rogue progression? Also I don't know about you guys, but rogues always seem to be a source of friction at my own tables or those nearby. Especially when lawful good anyone is involved (contrary to popular beleif its not just paladins!) Any ideas to overcome that?

As for the other popular option, druids, how do you feel about the blanket ban on metals? Seems concerning to me (for melee) unless you want to go with unarmed natural weapons monk build.

Oh and just to confirm what most have already assumed: the conceit of the thread accepts by default that the character wont be the best at anything as long as they can choose to be good ENOUGH at anything. It is NOT required to be able to fill all roles all the time, though that is a pleasant bonus. The idea is to start off being able to do anything, and then just focus on filling whatever gap the party happens to have.


What, in your opinion, is the clase or multiclass best able to flex over time into any party role?

It doesnt need to do everything from level 1, just be able to be aimed in different directions and fill a specified job effectively based on party composition.

If I were to guess, I would assume a cleric, probably war rather than cloistered for the superior martial proficiencies. Seems like it would have acceptable early flex and then just pick a different multiclass depending on what's needed, but you guys would know better than me.

I want to make up a nice "just in case" 1st level template I can take down different paths down the line so have something to use when I don't have much or any advance information.


Still getting the hang of 2e but how about this;

What if it was an item bonus in and of itself, that was explicitly called put as stacking with any other item bonuses (from mutagens)? Then it wouldn't conflict with mutagens that didn't have an item bonus to increase, AND would still work to "increase" the existing item bonus from the mutagens that have them.

Specific rules beat general rules every time, after all.


Thank you, that's a different description from the one i saw, but an altogether more useful one.

Im particularly amused that the training version is basically a kendama.


Unrelated to monks (its nit on the monk weapon list as far as i see), but what kind of weapon IS a flickmace? I keep seeing how good it is, and when I looked it up it apparently becomes a reach trip weapon when not crushing heads up close.

So does that make it some kind of flail or net-thing or something? The srd table just lists it as "exotic", which doesnt actually mean much since iirc even a basic hand and a half bastard sword is "exotic".


This thread is silly and amazing and i love it. Good way to get to point b in a hurry.


Oh, cant use it forc1st level feats from the multiclass eh? Yeah that does prevent the shenanigans i had in mind. Oh well, such is life.

The setting could be cool, kind of an arab-persian thing. Might be neat to roleplay as a jalmeran in wider golarion, or an outsider in jalmeray. I'll have to talk to the dm about that. Already brainstorming names lol. Courtesy of pop culture i have a ton of male names like aladdin, sinbad, xerxes, and so on, but not much for females (ive been known to play characters of either gender and any age group) so ill need to do some research.

Thank you for pointing it out. Im falling more and more in love with the silly things a monk can potentially be, and even if i dont make a student of perfection (which reads almost as monk+, or like a prestige class lol) its still got neat flavor implications id like to explore.

Shame it doesnt look to allow straight up djinni summons though. Maybe another jalmeran class. Are there more of these?


cavernshark wrote:

Trying to boost two mental stats to 14 out the gate might be a little tough and probably unnecessary. While your class DCs do key of Wisdom, not many monk powers have a save associated so you can probably do fine with a 12 in those stats. Don't forget you get 4 ability boosts at 5, one of which could easily bring a 12 charisma to 14 if you wanted to multiclass to bard or sorcerer a little later. You probably won't / shouldn't be focusing on attack spells anyway so you won't need a maxed spell attack role.

If you like the idea of an elemental themed monk, be sure to check out the Student of Perfection in the Lost Omens World Guide.

A theoretical build might look like this (note, I've not seen a build like this in play yet so this is speculation on my part):

** spoiler omitted **

Student of perfection seems pretty neat, and its only a couple of feats. With all the extra class feats a human can potentially get, would it be stretching too thin to try and do that AND pick up a casting class for a familiar to gain an extra focus point and some good cantrips/1st-6th spells? Napkin math says that would be a max of 5, or a 25% focus increase from only being a student of perfection monk.

Is there anywhere i can get more information on these houses of perfection though? The abilities seem like fun wuxia film nonsense, which is awesome, but theres usually philosophical baggage a character needs to be able to mesh with.


Sorry to interrupt, but ive been following this for about a day and I just looked at the arcane evolution feat. From what i gather, it essentially turns your sorcerer (or sorcerer dedicated other class) into a wizard - spellbook, prepared spells, and so on.

But if you want to do that, why would you not just be a wizard (or wizard dedicated other class)? Is it because you value Cha > Int for a specific character reason, or is there more to it?


Since right now im mostly experimenting with HOW to build characters, and since the flavor choices worked out surprisingly well if still kind of terrible, i decided to go ahead and try to generate a second monk, who is better at monk-ing and still reserves the right to spec into bard or sorcerer if they so choose, but who if portrayed accurately to stats, background, and feats is a VERY different person despite being the same race and class.

How did i do, do you think?

Ancestry: Human, Versatile (Bonus 1st level General Feat - Toughness 1 [+1 HP per level], Voluntary Flaw -2 Str, Voluntary Flaw -2 Int, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, Bonus +2 Con)

Background: Martial Disciple (+2 Dex, +2 Cha, Trained in Athletics and Warfare Lore, Quick Jump 1 Bonus Skill Feat [High Jump and Long Jump actions can be done as single actions that don't take a 10 foot stride beforehand])

Class: Monk (+2 Dex, Trained in Perception, Monk Class Features, 4+(-1)[Int] Skills)

1st Level Ability Bonuses: +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Cha

Final Ability Scores:

HP - 21
Str - 8
Dex - 18
Con - 14
Int - 8
Wis - 14
Cha - 14

1st Level Ancestry Feat: Natural Ambition (Bonus 1st Level Class Feat [Monk]: Ki Strike)

Final Trained Skills: Athletics, Warfare Lore, Perception, Acrobatics, Medicine, Survival.

If future training includes barding, follow the Enigma Muse (self perfection seems fitting for a monk, and alsontrue strike is useful)

If future training includes sorcery, unlock one of the Elemental Bloodlines (again, seems appropriate given the elemental strike ki power, something else might be better though, but i have heard primal spells are good. Leaning fire, for no specific reasons.)


Yeah con and wis, my bad XD

And i somehow missed that it wasn't its own phase for voluntary flaws, but shuffling that around isnt hard. Might make it impossible to go 18s and 12s though.

Since bad wis hurts ki powers, and spellcasting is so powerful, and since this build (16s and 14s) would have passable cha and good dex, what do you think of taking Bard dedication feats with perform (dance) for occult magic, or perhaps sorcerer dedication feats for divine, arcane or primal magic? Wizard also an option because int = cha, but material components are a hassle. Spontaneous is easier for a primary martial.


Okay, so after discussing matters with the other players, there's interest in trying out 2e. Specifically because theres less expansion content to keep track of, and the streamlining of various processes and formulae, which eases the burden on both players and the dm.

Im strongly considering the monk still, because it looks relatively user friendly being focused on unarmed and unarmored abilities to save sp and attunement slots for other magical items rather than worrying about arms and armament.

Is it u?reasonable for a monk to attempt to be all of extremely physically gifted (exceptional in both brute force as well as finesse and agility) AND reasonably charming and intelligent (more of the cute and slightly above average ability to absorb knowledge level than the god-seducing genius level) if im willing to take a hit on naivete and fragility?

I'm thinking of a veratile human monk with general training at 1st level for the two general feats that offers.

For build points im currently looking at +dex/+int for being Human, +str/+cha for a Prisoner background (former labour slave, thus the physicality), +2 str for taking it as the Monk's primary attribute instead of dexterity, -2 int/-2 wis/+2 dex for taking Voluntary Flaws, and +2 str/+2 dex/+2 int/+2 cha as my final step ability boosts. Totals look a like this:

HP - 17 (8 Human, +10 Monk, -1 Con mod)
Str - 16
Dex - 16
Con - 8
Int - 14
Wis - 8
Cha - 14

I could potentially push the 16s to 18s if making the 14s into 12s. I dont know if either number is too much/not enough for my characterization to be accurately reflected in my stats.

For skills, im actually not super interested in what Prisoner offers, and statistically could replicate the ability boosts with other backgrounds, but im not sure if they fit the character im working on as in terms of the lore. Any ideas welcome.

Oh and, dragon stance all day long. They're very proud of the quality of their legs =3


Sorry, didnt notice that.

Actually didnt realize there even was a second edition. When did that happen? And is first edition still active here?


Is this the right board for discussions about those?

If not, can someone direct me to the appropriate location?

If so, id like to hear your thoughts on potential options for an unarmored charisma build for use with the nereid's grace spell.

(Druid/Witch spell list, 1 round per level duration, +CHA mod to AC while unarmored,

Its been a long time since last i was playing (and referencing this forum), and i gathered previously that too much multiclassing was unviable, so that's also a thing. I will probably save up funds to get a magic item with the appropriate spell effect instead of taking witch or druid manually.

I was thinking a monk and/or oracle of some description to limit the necessity of weapons by using unarmed combat feats and/or spellcasting.

Unfortunately I don't have a lot of information on the game itself since the DM is still sorting out what kind of campaign they want to run in terms of setting or tone. I only just received the invite earlier today. Likewise I have no idea who I'll be playing with or what they'll be playing as, so the ability to flex into different party roles as needed would be a massive benefit.

For race, ill most likely either play a human or mostly-human subspecies of a demihuman race for the bonus starting feat. Personally i always have a hard time passing that up.


has AMBARBARIAN considered the possibility of taking up AM ALCOHOLISM as a hobby? one of the barbarian archetypes allows you to not spend a rage round by drinking as a swift action. between that and your smashy feat, you might even go positive rage usage. and with any divine caster in the party you have essentially infinite beer.

the sickened bit at the end when you unrage kind of sucks though.

might be better to kill your liver drinking than your soul dealing with these arguments :/


Ranger has always seemed unreliable to me, what with only working on certain enemy types and terrains (basically needing to metagame and know in advance where you'll be and what you'll fight just to be effective). Bringing that down to now only functioning in one city seems even more so.

On the other hand the rest of it seems interesting for a socially-inclined character who doesn't want to be a bard for whatever reason. Even though you're basically a bard without Inspire Courage.


In terms of Final Fantasy Job Classes like the Red Mage, a Magus is actually closer to a Sorcerer (Final Fantasy, not Pathfinder Sorcerer. That's a whole other can of worms), a Job Class that imbues their weapon with spells and then whacks the f~&! out things with them. As a "Sword Mage" I find it a highly adequate subclass selection for a Red Mage though. Extreme versatility, as you have the freedom to cast both Black and White Magic to middle tier against enemies with low magic resistance and beat on things with low physical resistance, exploiting elemental vulnerabilities either way. That and adequate defense because Red Mages can wear Medium Armor, and essentially infinite resources as you can use the Osmose Sword spell to refill your MP with every physical attack.

A Red Mage is essentially a hybrid of three Job Classes - Fighter, White Mage, and Black Mage. Magus or Paladin (Depending on preference for Black or White Magic) is a solid Fighter core if you like the Red Mage/Sorcerer(FF) build like me, and you can substitute Arcane and Divine Magic over Black and White Magic.

The question then becomes whether you want to be a Prepared or Spontaneous caster, as that would basically dictate whether you wanted to take levels in Wizard and Cleric, or Sorcerer(PF) and Oracle. Spontaneous is likely a better thematic fit. Early Final Fantasy is a solid reference for a Spontaneous Caster, as you could only learn a small number of different spells but could use any of them as long as you had enough slots of the appropriate level. Later entries let you learn every spell in the game potentially, which is more akin to a Prepared Caster, minus the fact that they could still cast Spontaneously and no longer had a slot level restriction.

Your caster levels WOULD be somewhat gimped no matter what, but thats kind of the point of a Red Mage - they can't do anything as well as a specialist, but have flexibility by being somewhat competent in all areas, making them ideal as a support to a Fighter/White Mage/Black Mage party composition.

EDIT: If you were looking to Gestalt a Red Mage, you really can't go wrong with a Magus+Paladin in Mithral Breastplate. It's MAD as hell, but you can probably work around that with Archetype choices.


Louise Bishop wrote:

I personally like the combo of:

Scaled Fist UnMonk 1/V. Bravo Paladin X (you can take up to 3 Monk levels before it is not worth it anymore)

Cha for Saves, CHA for AC, Stunning Fist DC, Flurry of Blows, Smite and Precision damage, Parry and riposte, Increased AC.

I take Dangerously CUrious trait for UMD as a skill

I use a +1 Answering Waveblade as my weapon. 18-20 weapon that can be used as part of a flurry.

answering is a REALLY NICE enchantment. really encourages riposting as much as possible, which is good because a natural 18-20, once Keen'd, is going to be generating a lot of panache through crits, and you dont want to over cap.

that's a really good find.


seems unlikely to work with a base monk, but it should absolutely work with a water dancer or scaled fist if you happen to have good amounts of both wisdom and charisma

if this was an Obsidian game that would be OP as hell for a caster since both WIS and CHA go to spell DCs there.


hahaha tortured crusader and phantom thief are actually kind of awesome.

shame about tortured crusader losing Divine Grace though, that's one of the Paladin's most important features. They do seem incredibly tough to bring down though between having an automatic contingent mercy when hit by something crippling and the usual Paladin's Defiance shenanigans for 1st level spellcasting. i guess come to think of it, it would be unfair for them to have a get out of jail free card on status effects AND great saves, not to mention having the oath of vengeance LoH->SE trick AND being able to brute-force double damage on smite with last stand. losing DG was probably mandatory for the sake of game balance XD

and the phantom thief looks to be incredibly flexible. you want a skill monkey? they can do it. party needs a face? they have it handled and then some. want to beat people up like a much more fashionable fighter? also doable. its just not practical to try and do more than one or two of those at once, and they're no good with the whole "backstab" thing rogues normally go for.

Anyone actually play as or in a game with one of these? Seems like they could be really fun to have involved.


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hooh, ley line guardian witch is another oddity. a potential spontaneous intelligence caster that also scales somewhat off of charisma. probably a good party face. replaces the familiar though. any way to get it back?

thanks for this list, it will provide some interesting material for the future.but is this list all that casters have to offer? and are there any martial classes that can make unusual changes to the way it would normally be played?

i liked the vindictive bastard thing. made me laugh. i could actually see a story progression of going from paladin to grey paladin to vindictive bastard before finally falling properly and becoming an antipaladin. maybe after he gets it out of his system a bit and calms down he becomes a tyrant antipaladin

LG-> NG (still a nice guy, but shadier) -> CN pissed off at losing his powers -> CE (youre a villain now, congrats.) -> LE (you're THE villain now. cograts?)


Water Dancer isn't compatible with the unchained monk, and isn't untyped. it does all stack though.

Water Dancer: Charisma Bonus instead of Wisdom Bonus. this is NOT UNTYPED.
More Water Dancer: Charisma as Dodge (1 per class level)
Osyluth Guile: Charisma as Dodge (When fighting defensively)
Artful Defense: Charisma as Dodge (1 per class level)
Crane Style: +1 dodge (when fighting defensively or using total defense)
Crane Wing: +4 dodge when fighting defensively with at least one free hand. lose the bonus if the enemy misses by 4 or less, but if you would actually get hit during total defense, deflect for free. this effect doesnt say you need a hand free, so maybe exploitable?
Crane riposte: free attack of opportunity whenever you crane wing stuff, reduce penalty for fighting defensively

if you decide to use chained monk for water dancer, stick to it unless you want the other features of the devoted muse. artful defense is literally the same as water dancer's nereid's grace in terms of dodge bonus (don't confuse it with the spell nereid's grace which is a deflection bonus from charisma.) Either way, replacing wisdom with charisma is fine, but i suggest keeping your dexterity in place so that you can maintain a higher AC and do better damage. charisma is a b*$$! to get on hit and damage (pally smite can +cha to hit, but only vs evil stuff and undead) so dexterity is the path of least resistance.


666bender wrote:

Shaman speaker of the past X with 1 monk level.

you get a spirt armor + wis (main ability) to AC + dex + barkskin + shiled of faith (human). = not bad at all.
flurry a Q-staff with battle domain or take life spirit and go guided hand for SAD build .

9 level caster, hexes, and good all around build.

I'm fairly certain the OP intends to be a martial class Dex Damage critter, given his choice of weaponry. Nothing says "Arr me hearties, we be pirates!" like a 9th level Divine Caster.


Scaled Fist and Sidestep Secret/Nature's Whispers (which is the better one because it goes to CMD instead of reflex and is an EX ability instead of SU, meaning it functions in Antimagic Fields) won't stack as Scaled Fist changes the Monk's "Wisdom Bonus to AC" into a "Charisma Bonus to AC", and Sidestep Secret/Nature's Whispers replaces every character's natural "Dexterity Bonus to AC" with a "Charisma Bonus to AC". Because two "Charisma Bonus to AC" won't stack, you can't double dip like that.

Likewise, Sidestep Secret's "Charisma Bonus to Reflex" won't stack with the Paladin's Divine Grace, as Divine Grace is NOT untyped. It is a "Charisma Bonus to Reflex" (and Fortitude and Will), just like Sidestep Secret (though obviously the increases to Will and Fortitude work normally), so for the same reasons as the AC, it won't work.

That being said, the Paladin's Divine Grace is VERY good for a high-charisma character, as long as you have a table where there isn't even one person - you, the GM, or anyone you're playing with - that can't hear the word "Paladin", or possibly even just "Lawful Good", without reflexively groaning, so it could still be worth it as a Lore Mystery Oracle, though if it was me I'd go with Nature Mystery and buy a Ring of Revelation (Lore Master) later on instead. If you take 4 levels as a Spirit Guide Oracle for the Life Spirit and 2 levels of Paladin you even have a basic Oradin shell, making you notoriously difficult to kill even when something does actually manage to hit you.

If your table can't handle a Paladin, and given this is a Pirate game that's totally reasonable, then there's a Faith Trait called Irrepressible to replace your Wisdom Bonus to Will Saves with your Charisma Bonus instead, but unfortunately it only works on Charm and Compulsion effects, so any non-mental Will saves and you're extremely vulnerable until you get your Cloak of Resistance.

If you decide to take Sidestep Secret/Nature's Whispers, unless the Scaled Fist has other features you really want, stick to the base Monk as if you come across any Wisdom increasing headbands that nobody else needs, you can wear them for a day to internalize the bonuses so that you can gain at least a little bit of AC from that feature. Otherwise pass on Sidestep Secret/Nature's Whispers (and possibly Oracle as a whole unless you want to try some Urban Barbarian/Bloodrager cycling cheese with the Lame Curse's eventual immunity to Fatigue) and go with the Scaled Fist.


if you're going to use the unchained monk and already are looking at charisma to ac, you should consider the scaled fist archetype for more charisma to ac. that way you dont need to budget points to wisdom, allowing you to have more charisma, which means more panache, which means more uses of dodging panache per day.

since the waveblade is a "monk weapon" then it would make an excellent replacement for a rapier, and since exotics tend to be slightly more powerful than martials, getting access to it without a feat is very nice. if flurry crits count to your panache regen, this could have a ton of potential.

and if you have any casters on hand, they can provide some buffs too. wizards and sorcerers use the VERY nice Mage Armor, and witches and druids use the more limited but still nice nereid's grace. you might want to look into ways to gain protection from arrows or bullets too, given it's a pirate themed adventure. i wouldn't be surprised if there were a few Gunslinger/Swashbuckler cross-class enemies.


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Almost (but not quite) as classic as "Ban this entire aspect of the game (read: the trouble with Paladins that crops up from time to time) because my opponents are wrong and annoying and what I'm complaining about happens every single time."

Tacit dismissals like those are never a good way to end a debate. Especially when it's essentially off-topic. This thread was never about whether the disparity between casters and martials not named AM BARBARIAN existed or not, but rather under the assumed agreement that it does, "How can we address it in a way that promotes fun for everyone involved, including the casters and AM BARBARIAN?"


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So I've been mucking about on D20PFSRD checking on various things, and I've noticed some interesting class changes through archetypes. You guys probably already know all about these, but I thought I'd share, and see if you all knew any others, just for funsies.

Eldritch Scion Magus - Magus is normally a Prepared Intelligence Arcane caster with a strong "Mage Knight" flavor. Like a Wizard/Fighter hybrid who solves his problems with swords instead of Fireballs. This swaps it to Spontaneous Charisma, and picks up a Bloodrager Bloodline, so its more like a Sorcerer/Barbarian. Like Bloodrager, except more sorcerer-y instead of the Bloodrager's more Barbarian-y. It's an absolutely huge shift in strategy compared to normal either way.

Wildblooded (Sage) Sorcerer - This Wildblooded Sorcerer from with the Arcane Bloodline uses Intelligence as their casting stat, even though all other sorcerer as far as I can tell use Charisma. It's still a Spontaneous Arcane caster, and doesn't prepare spells in advance or gain access to a spell book. Potentially one-of-a-kind as the only Spontaneous caster running on Intelligence?

Seducer Witch - The opposite of the Wildblooded Sage, the Seducer uses Charisma when most other Witches run on Intelligence. Unlike the Eldritch Scion Magus though, it doesn't change from being a Prepared caster to a Spontaneous one, and spellcasting works the same way it always has besides changing one stat for another. Like the Wildblooded Sage, I think this might potentially be completely unique, as the only Prepared Charisma caster.

I'm not saying any of these are good or bad, I just thought they were interesting. Have you guys discovered any other strange takes on a Class? Feel free to share!


AM BARBARIAN wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
You realize that saying "Next argument" doesn't mean you win by default right?

DUH. CORRECT STATEMENT AM ‘SILLY CASTY, BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WINNER.’

IN PINCH BARBARIAN ALSO HEAR OF ‘AM RUBBER CASTY AM GLUE, BOUNCE OFF BARBARIAN AND CASTY DIE BECAUSE AM HAVING LIKE 2 HP. POOR CASTY.’

Pretty sure they start off with 3 hp ;)

But no really, frailty is definitely a concern for casters. But most casters recognize this fact and take steps to mitigate it, such as Mage Armor and Energy Resistance to increase their defenses, or various control abilities like Color Spray to keep from being assaulted personally. And Summon Monster. Who doesn't love having a POCKET BARBARIAN on-call? So basically the more they level, the more ways they can cover for having garbage HP and possibly AC.

Of course that's arcane casters. Divine casters aren't as flexible in practice as they are in theory (lots of domains to choose from, but in the end you do have to pick one or two and sacrifice the rest eventually) but they still have plenty of options and are FAR more durable at the baseline before buffs get involved. There's a reason Clerics and Druids are regarded close to if not just as highly as Wizards. The main tradeoff being that divine casters have to ask permission to do things (spells from deities), and so are much more easily restricted by the GM to be more in line with the rest of the group ("Your God doesn't want you to have that spell available today.")

Arcane casters just do things (spells from generations of research and development).


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
It can take a number behind paladin threads.

Fair point

Paladin thread, AKA my gm is antagonistic to the party and bad at his job of making sure everyone has fun halp!

Alternatively: My GM is a jerk for stripping me of my powers for burning down orphanages and making pacts with Succubi, halp!

Alternatively: The other players are a@#&#@$s and intentionally being disruptive to my Paladin's...Paladinliness(?), halp!

The problem with paladins is that any one person being a douchecanoe ruins everyone's fun, whether its the GM, the other players (especially the Chaotic Neutral murderhobos), or the Paladin him/herself. As long as everyone is capable of acting like a mature adults there's no issue, even if a paladin's moral and ethical leanings clash with the group and/or setting. I would actually go so far as to say ESPECIALLY then, because that's when you see people getting creative. But if even ONE person at the table can't see the word "Paladin" without reflexively groaning, it's pretty much a lost cause.


That's a fair point, but the question still stands. Regardless of whether it's practical or not, I'd still like to know if it's possible. Mainly just because I feel like having options for how to apply mechanics and to whom makes me more flexible, even if it's not exactly optimal. Flexibility is why I wanted to play an Investigator in the first place. The have a great basic skeleton as a jack of all trades that can with certain archetypes and/or multiclass dips be directed to something more specialized in any one given field, but still retaining minor proficiency in the other areas.

I do note that it only says "touch attack" - without specifying whether it's a melee touch or ranged touch, because there are both - and only in reference to when it's not wanted (such as inflicting a debuff on an enemy), and while I do think that by RAW that should give me some wiggle room [for applying Extracts to willing allies at range] other than a liberal application of DM Fiat (something I prefer to avoid whenever possible), I'm not actually 100% sure, and could VERY easily just be applying personal bias based on what I perceive as "cool" to the reading.


This is one of the most fantastic things I have ever read. AM BARBARIAN, truly I thank you. I now must seek medical attention, as I think I may have broken my ribs laughing.


I agree with UnArcaneElection - an archer Skald would definitely bring a lot to the table, especially a Spell Warrior. Being able to make your bow act as if it were magically enhanced several times over, or trade some of those pluses for features to counter and exploit specific enemies is awesome, and you can even choose to spread the love to your allies as well without any of the normal downsides of Enraging, though it does take away from your budget of what you can give yourself. I'd definitely recommend you at least think seriously about it.

Alternatively if you just want to blow up health bars like nobody's business you could go with a gunslinger. The fact that you have so many melee allies wont make a difference once you pick up Ricochet Shot, and a couple of archetypes can prevent malfunctions and backfires to make the firearms more reliable. Use Alchemical Ammunition to make reloading faster and use a double-barrel weapon to rip the baddies apart. The downside to this is that you have basically no ability to contribute out of combat unless you invest heavily in UMD and rely on wands and such. But you ARE damn good at it, so there's that.


I think this thread is getting pretty derailed with the Fighter vs Wizard battle thing. It doesn't matter. Even if you make a Fighter who can kill a Wizard, it doesn't have anything to do with the actual topic, because doing so sacrificed everything or nearly everything to devote to a single purpose: killing that wizard. Meanwhile the Wizard generally doesn't do anything they wouldn't have ordinarily done anyway to pose a major threat to even the magekiller Fighter, and still has plenty of options to muck about with the plot between combats.

Its not about the fighting. Although making the fighting more engaging is certainly something to look into, its about giving the fighter (and other martials) the tools they need to solve problems in the world that can't be solved by just making HP go down as fast as possible. Lots of good suggestions have been made for how to do that. Some kind of lame suggestions have also been made. But the question of "Can a Fighter kill a Wizard in single combat?" just isn't important.

Also the answer is yes. Yes he can. The Wizard has better odds, but anyone can die to anything at any time if your luck with the dice sucks hard enough. And swords in the face don't feel good.


I do want to use poison a bit to get an edge, but yeah I'd rather not specialize in it, and nothing stops me outright so yeah, let's cut Toxin Codexer out.

I notice that the Investigator (and Alchemist) "spells" are touch ranged if you take the Infusion Discovery to make them usable on other people. Is there any way to extend the range? Being able to "inject" Cure X Wounds from even just a few feet away would be great. Like anywhere from 5 to 30 is absolutely fine.


Fighters can win AC races, potentially. That's about all they have going for them from what I can tell reading this thread. But tanking as a strategy is meaningless without Combat Reflexes, a high enough DEX mod to actually make use of it, a high enough AB to land those AoOs, and Stand Still. Otherwise the enemy will just go around you since you aren't a threat.

Now here's the thing that I think this whole thread forgot: This isn't about Fighters vs Wizards exclusively. By my read on this, Fighters are the official worst martial class, since Rogues (who also seem to be getting a lot of flak) win big on skill points compared to them, and Wizards are the official best Caster class. That's fine and well, but you have to keep in mind that this affects everyone in between as well.

How do Fighters stack up against the worst Caster? The worst Hybrid? What's the best Martial class? How to they hold up to Wizards? What's the best Hybrid? How do they compare to the best Martial and the Wizard? Is this in combat or out of combat? Do any classes fill a niche well enough that even though a Wizard could probably do it just as well if not better with some research and effort, it's easier to just have that other class around?

And what is this magical Ragelancepounce I keep hearing about that's supposed to bring Wizards down a notch?


Seems like Empiricist trades away some of the convenience of poison-use that investigator comes with, but doesn't necessarily stop you from using them. I presume there are feats to potentially regain some of that lost utility?

Toxin Codexer goes in totally the opposite direction lol. These guys pick up special new poison "spells" and can upgrade their poisons. I'm not really well versed enough to know if they're actually any good or not though. Only shame is that you give up trapfinding for it. Well, and Keen Recollection, but iirc untrained checks have a bad success rate.

It's a shame they aren't compatible, I do like them both. Makes it hard to pick. I'm also kind of interested in the one that swaps out magic potions for gadgets instead (Scavenger?). It's functionally identical, but changes the flavor of the "spells" in a cool way. Unfortunately I don't think that's compatible either though since it does TECHNICALLY alter the abilities.

Cipher is also kind of cool, but it gives up too many talents for too little that's likely to be relevant. The big ticket there is the free studied strikes if you can get a "sneak attack" in. That's probably a big damage boost.


im going to guess the area of effect thing is because you brought up channel energy. thats a 30 foot burst around the caster to heal allies and kill undead.

as for dervish, maybe they mean the wirling dervish swashbuckler? theres also the path of war class, but i don't know if those are valid picks or not. everything else i see on a quick search is some level of caster or other or else third party like the chakram dervish fighter.


So I wanted to make a character that could do a little bit of everything baseline, and decide what to specialize in later. Backstabs, poisons and acids, explosives, healing, noncombat skill stuff like sneaking around to scout and spy, and ranged attacks as a backup or while closing in on the enemy, all without any magic (okay alchemy technically runs on magic, but its really more science. mad science.) like a really badass fantasy james bond almost.

as far as i can tell i'd need a dex/int build anyway, and would probably dump str/cha to allocate more of the stat budget to them and con (dead spies can't achieve anything meaningful).

for character flavor i was thinking of keeping a two-handed gun (or rather, crossbow, because fantasy) and a nice, big knife. and maybe a few spare concealed smaller knives for dual wielding/throwing as a backup if i'm disarmed. fighting dirty with pocket sand and kicks to vulnerable areas is completely encouraged.

so with all of that, which class is better suited to the job of Her Undying Majesty's Secret Service?


Hi, not to butt in or anything but does the scaled fist's dragon style attack function with effects to use dexterity instead of strength for hit and damage?

If so, it might still be worth it for a defensive-leaning monk. My group is a bit short on front liners, and I wanted to try and make a movement denyer without being a boring shield wall. I thought running dexterity and finesse with combat expertise for lots of AoOs would let me trip people up. Literally. But I do still want to deal at least a bit of damage, and dragon style's multiplier would be great. It's like a power attack without the hit penalty. For only one hit per full attack, but at least it's free!