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Hey all,
Considering the phantom blade, and balancing them to the bladebound and the mindblade.
These three archetypes have a lot in common for various reasons, and it seems at first sight that choosing between them is just a matter of flavour preference. But it's not.
Because the two magus archetypes are based on the magus, they'll get 3 bonus feats and 6 arcana's (more if you're an elf), where the phantom blade gets just 4 bonus feats.
Now, my first question would be: Am I wrong in seeing a huge disbalance in power? If so, please help me see.
Second question: if I'm not wrong, what homerules would be an appropriate way to even things out?
Things I've considered so far:
- Let spellstrike and spell combat for the phantom blade work with any weapon form, including two handed weapons and (reach spellstrike for) ranged weapons.
- give phantom blade as many bonus feats as would otherwise be given to a spiritualist's phantom (8 in total)
What are your thoughts on this?
I don't think the solution is to give them more feats then the magus.
Letting them use spell combat with any phantom blade gives them 50% more damage from str and 50% more damage from power attack. It also gives you the option of reach weapons. this helps to avoid AOO and concentration checks.
There are more differences between the classes. The big one is the spell list. this is the thing you need to look at to see if you need to do any balance canges for the classes.
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I have yet to actually play a phantom blade, but it seems that being able to spell combat cure/inflict spells is quite good.
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I don't think the solution is to give them more feats then the magus.
But you do agree that there is a problem?
Yes, allowing two handed weapons gives all that. But bear in mind that a level 13 mindblade gets that too.
Also, power attack isn't the first and best option, since they're 3/4 BAB. Damage most likely will come from spells and spellstrike, where the magus list is definitely king. So, allowing 2 handed is less than it seems.
As to the cure/inflict spells.
Inflict gets outdamaged by the magus.
Cure gets outhealed by both warpriest and paladin. Where the warpriest can cast all spells that target themselves as a swift action, easily outdoing spell combat in that regard.
Yes, the spiritualist can do either, which would balance against being best at one or the other, but it certainly wouldn't balance (in my mind) against also not gaining arcana's. (Or bonus feats, in case of warpriest, or full bab and other stuff, in case of paladin).
I do agree that just giving more feats is not the most elegant option. But what then to do, to make phantom blade nót a weak class against those others.
Is its spell list truly that much better? Magi have access to any wizard (or psychic) spell of level 6 or lower. Surely they aren't hobbled in that area? As to warpriest, many consider the cleric list to hold great spells.
Right? I love to be proven wrong, here. I hope I'm just missing something.
I don't think the solution is to give them more feats then the magus.But you do agree that there is a problem?
Yes, allowing two handed weapons gives all that. But bear in mind that a level 13 mindblade gets that too.
Also, power attack isn't the first and best option, since they're 3/4 BAB. Damage most likely will come from spells and spellstrike, where the magus list is definitely king. So, allowing 2 handed is less than it seems.
As to the cure/inflict spells.
Inflict gets outdamaged by the magus.
Cure gets outhealed by both warpriest and paladin. Where the warpriest can cast all spells that target themselves as a swift action, easily outdoing spell combat in that regard.Yes, the spiritualist can do either, which would balance against being best at one or the other, but it certainly wouldn't balance (in my mind) against also not gaining arcana's. (Or bonus feats, in case of warpriest, or full bab and other stuff, in case of paladin).
I do agree that just giving more feats is not the most elegant option. But what then to do, to make phantom blade nót a weak class against those others.
Is its spell list truly that much better? Magi have access to any wizard (or psychic) spell of level 6 or lower. Surely they aren't hobbled in that area? As to warpriest, many consider the cleric list to hold great spells.
Right? I love to be proven wrong, here. I hope I'm just missing something.
I have not played or look a lot on the phantom blade. So i dinät know how the power difference is between the classes.
make a list of all the things the classes get and compare the.
it looks like you have done a list for what the magus has that the spiritualist don't get.
But you need to do it the other whey around as well.
I agree the magus spell list is the best for use with spellstrike & spell combat. Probably not a coincidence. The spiritualist gets some spells which are useful for battlefield control and some save-or-suck spells, but they're not particularly good with spells needing saves due to being a 6-level caster with no save DC bonus or debuffs to saves in class. Since they're not an arcane caster they can't get riving strike, and since they have no in-class use for charisma they likely won't excel with intimidate either.
Giving them something like riving strike for free would balance it out a bit I think. Or something like the puppetmaster magus's ability to raise save DCs with their pool points.
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PB (phantom blade), MB (mindblade), BB (bladebound)
Ability dependency:
PB: wis or cha.
MB or BB: int.
Conclusion: no real difference.
Feats:
PB: level 3, 8, 13, 18. Used at equal fighter level
MB and BB: level 5, 11, 17. Used at fighter level 0, 5, 8. But other feats at fighter level as well.
Conclusion: about even. Especially since spiritualist gains 4+int skill points.
Spells
PB: Spontaneous psychic caster. Spiritualist spell list, including healing and interesting stuff like possession and curses, but lacking in the damage department.
MB: Spontaneous psychic caster. Magus spell list with psychic additions, making a strongly offensive list with some insidious additions from the psychic, but no healing.
BB: Prepared arcane caster. Magus spell list with possible wizard additions and possible (if hexblade) curse additions, making for a very flexible list, but no healing.
Conclusion: all have their own flavour. BB seems to have the widest range, but that depends hugely on playstyle and preference.
Weapons & armour.
PB: martial weapons and medium armour
MB: martial weapons and light armour
BB: martial weapons. Light armour increasing to heavy over time.
Conclusion: minor differences.
Spellstrike and spell combat:
PB: not the greatest match in spell list, but good options are there. Spell combat only with a one handed weapon. Possibilities for 'centering self' quickly to negate the thought component's crippling concentration penalty.
MB: great match in spell list. Spell combat with 2 weapons and even with two handed (reach) weapons. Crippling concentration penalty.
BB: great match in spell list. Spell combat with a one handed weapon only. No concentration penalty.
Conclusion: mind blade scrores best as soon as they can do 2 handed weapon spell combat (level 13). Before that point, they've a huge concentration problem. Bladebound is the overall constant. Phantom blade is the big loser.
The weapon:
PB: any weapon form (though no ammunition, no reach spellstrike, and if you want spell combat, you're restricted). Weapon goes up to +10, but is expensive in its temporary enchantments. It does have free standard ghost touch.
Weapon can, at higher levels, change form and appear quickly.
Has backup monk unarmed strike damage. Last to reach brilliant energy (lvl 15), no bane option. Free alertness feat.
MB: any melee weapon form. Possibilities include even a split up to two weapons, making this the only archetype to combine two weapon fighting with spell combat. Pool points are refunded when the weapon vanishes, and the weapon(s) can be removed and reformed as a swift action eventually, making this weapon the most sustainably versatile. Weapon needs specific arcana (planar hunter and bane weapon) to reach the +10 limit, or will hang back with a +7 maximum. Quickest weapon to reach brilliant energy (lvl 12)
BB: Single weapon form, one handed. Weapon reaches +10 easily, and gets there faster with certain arcana. Second to reach brilliant energy (level 13), but can change to energy or force earlier (for a round). Free alertness feat. Weapon can be teleported to hand as std action. Weapon can have a magical sheath.
Conclusions: bladebound probably has the most powerful weapon, but it's the least versatile, it's also not expensive in arcane pool points.
Mindblade has the most versatile weapon, being able to switch from a brilliant energy scimitar to a flaming planar ghost touch lance in a swift action. It's downright cheap in psychic pool points.
Phantom blade has the middle ground in power and versatility. It is the most expensive in ectoplasmic pool points.
Special abilities:
PB: has a specific set of spell like abilities.
MB: has 6 (or more) arcana's. Can easily get a familiar.
BB: has 5 (or more) arcana's. Spell recall or very powerful hexes (hexcrafter). Can freely learn any spell on their spell list.
Could opt for weapon/armour training and higher fighter level for feats (myrmidarch)
Conclusions: Bladebound clearly wins, mindblade is the runner up. Phantom blade falls miserably behind.
Final conclusions:
Bladebound is the biggest powerhouse. A simple concept to steamroll over enemies.
Mindblade has greatest versatility and will benefit most from intelligent positional play.
Phantom blade has a great concept and an interesting spell list, but is very difficult to personalise or to rise to mediocre levels of power.
Considering the above, I still think phantom blade lags behind. Perhaps even a bit more than I thought, because previously I hadn't taken in the enourmous pool costs the phantom blade requires to enchant their weapon. I think it's really a shame that such a great concept is that much weaker than its counterparts, and I would still like to rectify that.
phantom blade can do interesting things like healing with a whip [15' reach and deals nonlethal so damage is healed in addition to hp healing] or spellstrike with a reach weapon and starts with a base WIS focus for good saves.
So they have a different focus than the others but I don't know that they need buffing.
Give them 4-6 magus arcana that uses the spiritualist's pool.
If the pools is to small you can
1. Make it larger
2. Make stuff you think is to expensive less expensive.
3. Give them a mechanic to gain points back.
This will make the class more like a magus there are other wheys to balance it as well.
Could pick one spell per level from the magus spell list for example. To give them good offensive spells.
it's easy to make the Phantom Blade to strong when balancing it like this. If it gains arcana like a magus and can pick the best spells from the magus list. Why play a Magus.
Do they pick from the wizard list? I thought they had there own, which wasn’t very good.
As for feats, Phantom blade one count there level as a fighter level for those feats.
That’s not to say there is balance between them.
The spiritualist has issues regarding thought components makingconcentration checks hard and not having a touch cantrip for a free second attack. Like Arcane mark.
I like the phantom blade but I don’t think they really work till level 4.
@CD: The magus gets their own list which is good for its purpose if limited, and they can use the spell blending arcana (and an ability at 19th level, not that I've ever seen that in use) to steal from the sorc/wiz list.
Before 4th level (when the phantom blade can use a swift action to deal with the +10 to concentration DCs from thought components; I think you're referring to this?) they just need to avoid AoOs. A magus generally does too, they can't reliably make the concentration checks to cast defensively at low levels either. Even when they get that ability it's not ideal - swift actions are still valuable.
@Zautos': More spells could work but it makes them less distinct from the magus. I'd prefer something to make their existing spells work.
Also whey is a byproduct of making cheese, I think you mean way.
I’d say the Spiritualist one was generally better and getting some more flexibility at level 19 seems like a negligible factor when comparing the classes.
That said I think the Spiritualist list really picks up at level 2 spells before then I’d rather have the Magus.
Just avoiding AOE isn’t so easy when they want to be using spell combat. It’s much easier for a Magus to make a cast defensively check than a Spiritualist
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The Phantom Blade strikes me as a slightly weaker version of the Magus. This is mainly because its enchant weapon ability has a higher cost, and it (effectively) gets its arcana locked in as ghost blade, accurate strike, and devoted strike - which is a decent set but not a spectacular one.
And they get a weaker spell list. The Magus spell list is second only to the wizard's in versatility, until you get high enough that seventh-level spells become an option, of course. I'm curious what gems you're seeing on the Spir's list that would make it better than the Magus's.
Overall the PB is a decent and playworthy class (and hands down than the Ectoplasmatist...)
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Don't forget that the Phantom Blade can make all of their attacks as touch attacks.
That's a good point; the Magus can also do that, but gets the ability four levels later.
The PB also has a very large number of save or suck touch spells to deliver with their spell combat.
That's less of a good point :) The Magus list already has Chill Touch and Frigid Touch (which is the identical to Stricken Heart), and can get Ghoul Touch via Spell Blending. The Puppetmaster and Mindblade Magus archetypes get healing and status removal, if desired.
The spiritualist has issues regarding thought components makingconcentration checks hard and not having a touch cantrip for a free second attack. Like Arcane mark.
Technically they do have touch cantrips - Resistance, Virtue, and Guidance. Virtue might be the best (effectively a -1 to damage for an extra attack is a decent tradeoff). If you can finagle your DM into letting you use Light that would ideal though.
It'd depend on the situation. Virtue could give a hit point every round. But the bonus from resistance wouldn't increase in further rounds. And if the target already has a resistance bonus to saves, it wouldn't give them anything.
And using a cantrip for spell combat implies that the target isn't much of a threat anyway or that you are out of resources, either way you probably won't be using any other save-based attacks on it.
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To my idea, the difference in spell list doesn't really make one class better than the other.
The main difference lies in the absence of arcana's, for which the phantom blade gets some niche spell-like abilities in return.
One thing, though. How does a phantom blade hit touch AC so early? They get brilliant energy as an ability at level 15. Is there something I'm missing? A spell of some sort?
To my idea, the difference in spell list doesn't really make one class better than the other.
The main difference lies in the absence of arcana's, for which the phantom blade gets some niche spell-like abilities in return.
One thing, though. How does a phantom blade hit touch AC so early? They get brilliant energy as an ability at level 15. Is there something I'm missing? A spell of some sort?
"The spiritualist can also spend 2 ectoplasmic points as a free action to allow attacks made with her phantom weapon to resolve against touch AC for 1 round".
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There is also the matter of "points" to spend to power these abilities.
Sure, the spiritualist has an easier time hitting touch AC. On the other hand, the Magus can spend one point per combat to make his weapon e.g. keen + flaming (that's the three points you reserved earlier) whereas this costs the spir four points per combat.
So spir gets to hit touch AC for two more rounds per day, whereas Magus deals more damage per hit on every round. I don't think the spir really wins this one :)
not having a touch cantrip for a free second attack.
Two-World Magic trait to add brand to it's spell list.
Well the phntom blade gets a pool of points which can be used to enhance unarmed strikes in addition to AoMF. That's quite something. You could get a vicious AoMF and have your unarmed strikes get enhncement bonuses from class. You have lots of ways to gain temporary hit points so vicious is actually really good especially considering how early you can get it.
Also the phantom blade can target touch AC, albeit at quite the costly upkeep.
I think the pahntom blade really needs something like frostbite on his spell list. If that were the case it would prolly be a viable alternative to the magus.
It targets a dead creature, so probably not. I guess you could say you attempt to deliver the spell with a "touch" and it fails, because of the invalid target, but by that point the attack has already occurred. But I wouldn't expect many DMs to let that fly.
I wouldn't be too concerned about the cantrips. You have chill touch as a first level spell. You will have to commit most of your slots to it early on and try to get Pearls of power ASAP.
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Since phantom blade is a spontaneous caster, you'll have to use runes, not pearls, they're twice as expensive.
The points story doesn't really hold.
Yes, the mindblade must manifest his blade, but he gets those points back when he lets it go.
Yes, the bladebound has less arcane pool points, but being a magus, he uses only one of them to get his full enchantment.
The phantom blade, on the other hand, has to pay more ectoplasmic points for his better enchantments.
So, the story about getting AOO touch attacks is true, but at no small cost, certainly.
Phantom blade does not spend money on weapons!
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Magus is a T2 class.Spritualist is a T3 class.Yes it is weaker then a magus and that is by design.Generally occult classes released as weaker than other classes and they will stay that way but they are fun to play.
Both classes are Tier 3. Tier 2 is generally reserved for spontaneous full casters, and Summoners (who are basically a spontaneous full caster).
Phantom blade does not spend money on weapons!
That is an important point for something like PFS, where your weapon is limited by wealth. In other campaigns, that benefit can fluctuate wildly, depending on what kind of drops you get and how available shops and crafting are.
Maybe an archetype that gets the magus's main shtick is purposely not as powerful as the magus because that'd be weird to do?
Really? Seems like it'd be weirder not to. If the archetype fails to hold up in a direct comparison to the thing it's most similar to that sounds like a design and balance failure.
I really like the archetype- it's a Magus that doesn't annoy me. (With apologies to most of the people here, who enjoy the class.)
Magus is pushed heavily towards 18-20 crit range weapon, trait-cheesed metamagic Schocking Grasp every round in a way that gets old fast- especially once you see it for the second or third time. Phantom Blade's spell list focuses more on debuff touch attacks, freeing up both their choice of weapon and their choice of spells. They can eventually shift their weapon, reinforcing that, and they even get something while "hiding" their weapon, which is good for opening up options in unusual circumstances.
I personally like to trait cheese Bladed Dash, for the extra mobility. Being able to use Bladed Dash with Spell Combat to go in, make all of your attacks, and then Quicken Bladed Dash out is a pretty nice ability to have, and it certainly helps keep you safe.