This is rather a problem of the popular thinking that dishing out damage is the only successfull way to Play a Pathfinder character than a Problem of the design of the Magus class I think.
I'd disagree; the design of the Magus class itself funnels it into the damage-dealing spellcaster role, since all of its major class features revolve around dealing damage. Arcane pool lets it buff its weapon, spell combat lets it cast without stopping its weapon attacks, and spellstrike lets it deliver more damage with touch spells. These are the foundational abilities of the magus class, and they are all about dealing damage.
The Magus does have the broad options of a 6-level spellcaster, but has arguably the worst spell list out of them. The niche that distinguishes it from other spellcasters is its heavy focus on direct damage. The touch spells delivered through spellstrike let it fulfill this primary role extremely efficiently, but by taking full advantage of this powerful class feature most builds end up looking very similar. If a class gives you lemons, don't blame the player for making lemonade.
I mean, "it's melee focused barring a specific archetype" isn't really a problem with the Swashbuckler, Bloodrager, Cavalier, Monk, Shifter, or Vigilante is it?
Cleric: most of what Moonclanger said, + unhook channel energy from alignment.
Bard/Ranger: add inflict x wound line of spells to their spell lists.
Fighter: worth a few dozens threads already.
Monk: give it its good will save back.
Cavalier/Samurai: stuff been said in this thread already.
Shifter: ?
I mean, "it's melee focused barring a specific archetype" isn't really a problem with the Swashbuckler, Bloodrager, Cavalier, Monk, Shifter, or Vigilante is it?The unarchetyped kineticist is pretty clearly ranged focused, as well.
Sure, but my broader point was that lots of classes have a built in "ranged/melee" focus and it takes archetyping or some work to make it the other one, and this is not a problem with those classes.
That the Magus wants to be up close and fight in Melee is no more a flaw in that class than that the Gunslinger doesn't want to do any of that is a flaw with that class (there are many flaws with the Gunslinger but "wants to shoot things before they get into stabbing/biting range, else leave stabbing/biting range ASAP" is not one of them.)
<must...murder...doppelganger....>
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you were going to rebuild the Magus (beyond a clarity rewrite, which would be a good idea in its own right), I'd like to see an Arcane School feature added:
- Abjuration would give you a 6/9 Anti-Caster caster;
- Conjuration would give you something like a prepared casting Summoner, but with more emphasis on non-summoning battlefield control;
- Divination would give you a combatant with exceptional situational awareness;
- Enchantment would be like a fleshed-out Puppetmaster Magus;
- Evocation give you something pretty much like the regular Magus is now, but with a little bit more encouragement for mixing it up in the spell selection department;
- Illusion would give you essentially an Arcane Trickster base class;
- Necromancy would give you something like a personal-combat-capable Necromancer;
- Transmutation would give you buffing/debuffing specialist combatant.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Out of all the non-psychic classes listed, Cavalier is the only one I can't think of any build that is interesting, unique (among classes) and useful, even with archetypes. There are plenty of mounted archetypes that do that better than Cavalier and none of the orders are really something to base a character on. The archetypes that make major changes are all junk, change very little, or do things any mounted character could do.
I mean....Dinosaur knights
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Shifter: ?This company just had a playtest of a product to do this, so it's already been done, effectively.
What? Which company? When?
- - - - -
Sorcerer: Arcane Bloodlines variants based on School specializations.
Paladin: make it a Prestige Class (or a Paladin PrC as an option).
Magus: this
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
+1 on Paladin (and Antipaladin) being converted to a prestige class. Also do this for Inquisitor. What deity or religion in their right mind is going to let some random person off the street be their holy champion or beyond-the-rules troubleshooter if they haven't been tested yet? Note: This would require prestige class archetypes (why haven't we seen any of these yet)?
Shifter: ?This company just had a playtest of a product to do this, so it's already been done, effectively.What? Which company? When?
Legendary Games, Legendary Shifter playtest thrrad in this forum.
Legendary Games, Legendary Shifter playtest thrrad in this forum.Shifter: ?This company just had a playtest of a product to do this, so it's already been done, effectively.What? Which company? When?
I need to pay better attention.
My vote goes to cavalier. My thoughts on the classes.
Barbarian: Definitely could be reworked. While the barbarian has great flavor and a cool primary class feature, rage is pretty much the only thing they have. They have very poor skills and rage powers do not do enough to make your barbarian feel unique compared to others. Most of them just make the barbarian better at what they do, rather than give them new options.
Cavalier: Could be reworked. Cavalier's challenge and order abilities are cool enough to have the entire class built around it. Unfortunately, almost all of their abilities are tied to mounts, creating a situation where you're basically a weaker fighter without your mount. And their mount is inferior to the options that summoners, druids, and hunters can get. While there's archetypes that replace mounts, they're hit-or-miss. Many people would appreciate a cavalier where mounts are only a single option you can dedicate your character to. Not an option you're stuck with unless you have an archetype.
Monk: While the unchained monk isn't perfect, I think it's fine overall.
Cleric: Definitely could be reworked, though it's tricky. The cleric is interesting in that it's powerful but bland. They have many things going for them, but there's very little customization. Domains have a great design space, but they're very weak and boring. I'd do a cleric rework myself, but I'm tied up in other projects.
Ranger: Personally, I think the ranger is the best designed martial class in the game. There's very little I'd change about it.
Alchemist: I think the alchemist is a pretty great class. The only major issue I have with them is that almost all of their ability progression is locked behind discoveries.
Magus: This class is fine as is. I played several magi as they're my favorite class. Honestly, the biggest problem with them is that the main class features require game system mastery to understand. Many people complain about a lack of variety, but that's a problem that can be fixed by offering more magus arcana and spells. I feel most people underestimate how much a magus's spell loadout can change their playstyle.
Investigator: Solid class aside from a "meh" talent pool. I'd simply offer more options to replace alchemy as many investigator players aren't interested in it and feel it's out of place with the flavor.
Slayer: There's room for improvement, like fleshing out the talent pool and giving more interesting options at later levels. However, I think it doesn't deserve as much attention as other classes.
Medium: The class is solid as is, but the design space is broad enough that it would be interesting to see a different take on it.
Spiritualist: This class needs rewritten, not reworked. It's a really interesting and useful class with amazing archetype support that offer optional ways to play the class. However, the rules text is a bloated mess. You have to cross-reference multiple locations in the text just to figure out how your phantom works. Which is odd as the phantom is actually fairly simple and less complicated than eidolons and animal companions.
+1 on Paladin (and Antipaladin) being converted to a prestige class. Also do this for Inquisitor. What deity or religion in their right mind is going to let some random person off the street be their holy champion or beyond-the-rules troubleshooter if they haven't been tested yet? Note: This would require prestige class archetypes (why haven't we seen any of these yet)?
If you are a first level hero, you are not some random person off the street. Even at level 1, you are exceptional.
Note: This would require prestige class archetypes (why haven't we seen any of these yet)?
Dreamscarred Press actually did a couple of prestige class archetypes in Seventh Path.
|
If you are a first level hero, you are not some random person off the street. Even at level 1, you are exceptional.+1 on Paladin (and Antipaladin) being converted to a prestige class. Also do this for Inquisitor. What deity or religion in their right mind is going to let some random person off the street be their holy champion or beyond-the-rules troubleshooter if they haven't been tested yet? Note: This would require prestige class archetypes (why haven't we seen any of these yet)?
To echo this, of course you've been tested. That's why you have the class level instead of commoner.
Not to mention that PC's typically have way better stats than NPC's. To an average person a 13 is considered a high attribute.
Not to mention that PC's typically have way better stats than NPC's. To an average person a 13 is considered a high attribute.
The standard array for non-heroic NPCs is 13,12,11,10,9,8 which is to say a 3 point buy before race. So while 13 starts as the high 15 is easily done, and we could see 2~3 thirteen plus stats.
The heroic array is 15,14,13,12,10,8, which is a 15 point buy, or "standard".
Also it isn't odd to see NPCs with standard class levels either. So while I agree most NPCs have at least some class levels. Indeed the "average person" level range is 1-5. So it is actually quite likely that while a level 1 PC has great potential, the NPCs are not typically going to be looking at someone that is literally head and shoulders above anything they have ever seen.
It isn't odd, but it is relatively uncommon. Walk from the city gate all the way through to the local viscount's audience chamber and the number of PC-class NPCs will be utterly dwarfed by commoners, experts, warriors, and aristocrats.
It isn't odd, but it is relatively uncommon. Walk from the city gate all the way through to the local viscount's audience chamber and the number of PC-class NPCs will be utterly dwarfed by commoners, experts, warriors, and aristocrats.
It has been a minute since I dug through it, but if I recall correctly the number of generic NPCs with non-npc class levels wasn't low. Granted most NPCs still had at least one NPC class level. Purely non-npc class NPCs tend to be really rare, but still, a level 2-5 expert, warrior, or aristocrat isn't in bar shape compared to level 1-3 PCs typically. Granted there is a gap and it grows (intentionally) the higher the levels get, but as the levels grow the tendency is to find more of those more effective NPC builds.
TL:DR, my main qualm was about the idea that level 1 PCs were much better off than NPCs and that a 13 was very high for the average NPC.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
+1 on Paladin (and Antipaladin) being converted to a prestige class. Also do this for Inquisitor. What deity or religion in their right mind is going to let some random person off the street be their holy champion or beyond-the-rules troubleshooter if they haven't been tested yet? Note: This would require prestige class archetypes (why haven't we seen any of these yet)?
This actually was a product idea we had wayyyy back around 2012 or 2013 at Legendary Games but the people who came up with the idea all got buried in other projects and we just never circled back to it.
It's still on our list, and we did already do Legendary Assassins. Might have to play with a few more of them to see what we can do!
To echo this, of course you've been tested. That's why you have the class level instead of commoner.If you are a first level hero, you are not some random person off the street. Even at level 1, you are exceptional.+1 on Paladin (and Antipaladin) being converted to a prestige class. Also do this for Inquisitor. What deity or religion in their right mind is going to let some random person off the street be their holy champion or beyond-the-rules troubleshooter if they haven't been tested yet? Note: This would require prestige class archetypes (why haven't we seen any of these yet)?
There are limits to trusting untapped/untrained/untamed potential.
There are limits to trusting untapped/untrained/untamed potential.To echo this, of course you've been tested. That's why you have the class level instead of commoner.If you are a first level hero, you are not some random person off the street. Even at level 1, you are exceptional.+1 on Paladin (and Antipaladin) being converted to a prestige class. Also do this for Inquisitor. What deity or religion in their right mind is going to let some random person off the street be their holy champion or beyond-the-rules troubleshooter if they haven't been tested yet? Note: This would require prestige class archetypes (why haven't we seen any of these yet)?
Look if it's good enough for the force, it should be fine for some good.
Look if it's good enough for the force, it should be fine for some good.There are limits to trusting untapped/untrained/untamed potential.To echo this, of course you've been tested. That's why you have the class level instead of commoner.If you are a first level hero, you are not some random person off the street. Even at level 1, you are exceptional.+1 on Paladin (and Antipaladin) being converted to a prestige class. Also do this for Inquisitor. What deity or religion in their right mind is going to let some random person off the street be their holy champion or beyond-the-rules troubleshooter if they haven't been tested yet? Note: This would require prestige class archetypes (why haven't we seen any of these yet)?
They start as Padawan, not Jedi Knight or Jedi Masters.
One thing I’ve mulled over was Wizard. It both holds up and drops off. Whenever we’ve worked with them, mathematically, in typical games, or in playtests they always manages to hold their own in the role they’ve been given. They are not “top tier” damage dealers but have some really solid burst DPR that can be critical in a specific fight. They are still utility GODS but where I always felt they lacked was in their inborn, baked-in, class features.
While I am FAR from suggesting that a class needs to have lots of complex class features (and the wizard’s spellcasting is complex enough) it could use a bit of a face lift. I always felt that the cleric, another 9 level caster, kind of got the better deal: medium BAB, higher HD, 9 level caster, can cast in plate, naturally progressing heal-bombs, domain powers, etc. Wizards gets... school powers, a familar (or some extra spells), some bonus feats, and scribe scroll. BUT THEY HOLD UP.
I don’t know- it feels like they work but there isn’t a lot of “meat on the bone” (except they kind of get that from their spell list).
So I’m conflicted- do they NEED a reworking, no. They hold up mechanically and as an archetype. COULD they be reworked with some more unique/interesting mechanic? Yes.
#UnhelpfulCommentsRUs
They start as Padawan, not Jedi Knight or Jedi Masters.
A Padawan is still a Jedi.
What substantive class features does Qui Gon have that Padawan Obi Wan did not? That Obi Wan had that Padawan Anakin did not? That Anakin had that Padawan Ahsoka did not? That Luminara had that Padawan Barriss did not?
Padawan are just lower-level Jedi, and splitting Padawan and Jedi Knight off into separate base class and prestige class is just unnecessary complication of something that should be a smooth transition, with in-character social advancement occurring when it makes sense in the story, rather than when the rules say you meet the prerequisites to take the Jedi Knight prestige class.
One thing I’ve mulled over was Wizard. It both holds up and drops off. {. . .}
While I am FAR from suggesting that a class needs to have lots of complex class features (and the wizard’s spellcasting is complex enough) it could use a bit of a face lift. I always felt that the cleric, another 9 level caster, kind of got the better deal: medium BAB, higher HD, 9 level caster, can cast in plate, naturally progressing heal-bombs, domain powers, etc. Wizards gets... school powers, a familar (or some extra spells), some bonus feats, and scribe scroll. BUT THEY HOLD UP.
{. . .}
The Cleric sure doesn't have a great variety of class features -- assuming you didn't trade something out in an archetype, you get 2 1st level Domain Powers (except that some Domains have 2 1st level Domain Powers like a Wizard Arcane School) and scaling Channel Energy, then usually 2 8th level Domain Powers (unless you take some weird Domain that gets its 2nd Domain Power at an earlier level), and that's it.
Wizard Arcane Schools nearly all have 2 1st level School Powers (nearly always one that is usable 3+IntMod times per day and one that is usable on some other basis, usually passive) and 1 (usually) 8th level School Power, but Wizards also get bonus feats (skimpy but more than Cleric gets), and get access to Arcane Discoveries.
The thing in both cases, though, is that different Domains and different Arcane Schools are REALLY UNEVEN in quality -- some are awesome (Conjuration (Teleportation) and Evocation (Admixturer) and Elemental Air), while some are definitely lacklustre (Abjuration without a Subschool, Conjuration without a Subschool, Elemental Water (Mud), and Universalist if you AREN'T going into the Arclord of Nex prestige class or a very specific build that actually revolves around Hand of the Apprentice). The same is true of Sorcerer Bloodlines, by the way, although these award Bloodline Powers at more levels, thereby reducing (although not eliminating) the probability that you will get everything awesome or be stuck with nothing but stinkers.
I'd love to see domains and schools and bloodlines become more like oracle mysteries.
+1 on that. In addition, I'd like to see core spell lists trimmed, and Arcane School/Bloodline/Domain/Mystery/Patron spell lists expanded into more than 1 spell per level (you still get only 1 freebie of each level, but you can choose from more than 1 of each level). I'd also like to introduce specialist benefits that you get if your auxiliary spell list shares a spell with your core spell list or if you are an Arcane School specialist.
Similar with military rankings, or page/squire/knight rankings. While higher ranks TEND to be higher levels, and lower ranks lower levels, there isn't a level-to-rank (or PRC-to-ranks) relationship. Instead, it is a social/plot element, not a game mechanics one.They start as Padawan, not Jedi Knight or Jedi Masters.A Padawan is still a Jedi.
What substantive class features does Qui Gon have that Padawan Obi Wan did not? That Obi Wan had that Padawan Anakin did not? That Anakin had that Padawan Ahsoka did not? That Luminara had that Padawan Barriss did not?
Padawan are just lower-level Jedi, and splitting Padawan and Jedi Knight off into separate base class and prestige class is just unnecessary complication of something that should be a smooth transition, with in-character social advancement occurring when it makes sense in the story, rather than when the rules say you meet the prerequisites to take the Jedi Knight prestige class.
Relatively that, but one wouldn't become a Jedi Knight because mommy is a queen, or because daddy has a lot of money, even with the page/squire/knight thing, people would question unusual rank up and/or treatment. with magic, even if someone has both great potential and grandiose destiny, people would still want to test if they can handle it "right now".
Relatively that, but one wouldn't become a Jedi Knight because mommy is a queen, or because daddy has a lot of money, even with the page/squire/knight thing, people would question unusual rank up and/or treatment. with magic, even if someone has both great potential and grandiose destiny, people would still want to test if they can handle it "right now".Similar with military rankings, or page/squire/knight rankings. While higher ranks TEND to be higher levels, and lower ranks lower levels, there isn't a level-to-rank (or PRC-to-ranks) relationship. Instead, it is a social/plot element, not a game mechanics one.They start as Padawan, not Jedi Knight or Jedi Masters.A Padawan is still a Jedi.
What substantive class features does Qui Gon have that Padawan Obi Wan did not? That Obi Wan had that Padawan Anakin did not? That Anakin had that Padawan Ahsoka did not? That Luminara had that Padawan Barriss did not?
However, becoming a Jedi Knight brings no mechanical benefits, a newly-promoted knight has no greater powers over the Force than he or she had minutes or hours before as a Padawan. He or she has greater social and plot powers, but not mechanical.
Similarly, the power levels newly-promoted knights, or masters, possess can vary greatly, as well as the allocation of those powers (lightsaber skill, combat skills in general, skill in the Force). Promotions are given, delayed, or denied based on social or plot attributes (are they emotionally ready for it, or, quite frankly, does the plot demand a delay or denial), not mechanics, as with PRCs.
the post that started this mess went with "PCs are special because they have PC classes not Commoner".
My reply was kind of more in line with "What make them different than other LvL 1 in a PC class?"