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"Fighter" is not really a 10th level concept - not on its own, anyway. The class simply doesn't reinforce the narrative weight that 9th or 6th level casting lends....
I think that is a very interesting concept to explore.
- Levels 1-5
This stage of the game is like real world people drawn into extraordinary circumstances. Most problems have mundane solutions, and magic is limited. Most of the martial classes function extremely well from level 1-5. - Levels 6-10
This stage is similar to minor mythical and legendary figures and most fantasy settings. Most challenges have a mundane solution, but magic is becoming common and powerful.
The martial classes still function well, although it is more difficult for them to dominate encounters like they could in the first few levels.This is where AD&D essentially ended for PCs. Not a hard cap, but it was the level 20 of the 1970's.
- Levels 11-15
At this point we have left reality behind, and are into the realm of the fantastic. Underwater, in the sky, and even other planes of existence are likely. Characters are decked out in a kingdoms worth of magical items, and magic is everywhere. Most situations essentially require powerful magical solutions. Mundane classes are still relevant, but struggle to participate beyond narrow circumstances.This is where Pathfinder Society and most Adventure Paths end.
- Levels 16-20
The game has entered a stage surpassing the limits of most superhero stories, and even many fantastic tales of demi-gods and godlings. The mundane is trivial, and challenges require solutions that even modern nations are not capable of providing. At this point it is very difficult to participate without substantial magic.This is where Pathfinder essentially ends.
This wide spread in levels represents drastically different play experiences. A "realistic, gritty, or low magic" game becomes "high fantasy" around 10th level, then transforms into a superhero game at around 15th level. Classes like rogue and fighter are built on a frame that never expected to become a superhero game, and their abilities are essentially stuck in a level 1-10 world.
The magic system was an integral part of the published rules in AD&D, but I think most of the higher level stuff was for the DM more then the players. I suspect casting NPC's were still expected as encounters for "high level" (9th+ level PCs), and magic was needed as a basis for a variety of other parts of the game such as monster abilities and magic items. The extension of the game from 10th level cap to 20th level cap required a re-imagining of what these classes would look like after 10th level, rather then just transferring them from AD&D. I give Paizo a lot of credit for improving the game substantially from previous editions, but there is only so much you can build on the AD&D foundation, without creating something that doesn't look like AD&D, or even 3.x anymore.
Popular consensus is that there is a disparity between fighters and casters. My own opinion is that this disparity is less of a problem than;
A) Ultra optimized players of any class that try to control or break the game.
B) Extremely inexperienced players.
C) Inexperienced or spiteful GMs.An analogy to describe what you're saying:
Analogy: You break your leg and go into the emergency room. You're told that they'll get to your leg as soon as they finish curing cancer.
Doesn't matter if another problem is worse, this thread is about this problem. If you want to discuss a different problem, you are allowed to make a new thread.
So you take two sentences, out of the context of the rest of the post (even leaving in the part where I say "Popular consensus is that there is a disparity between fighters and casters"), and call it irrelevant. I was trying to establish the severity of the problem, at least for me and my group(s).
By your own analogy, that's like trying to establish that a hairline fracture in a leg is less severe than multiple compound fractures. Thus the hairline fracture gets a brace and pain meds (minor class adjustment) and not a complete amputation (re-writing a major chuck of the game).
So, what is your solution to the fighter/caster disparity problem, since my solution is irrelevant?
No, my analogy isn't about establishing order of precedence at all. I'm pointing out that whether other problems exist and regardless of whether they're worse or not, does not address this problem. If you want to talk about a different issue, take it to the appropriate thread. You're allowed to make more threads.
You're right, I didn't address your specific solutions to the Fighter. They aren't the changes I would make, but if you're happy with them, go for it. I personally think the Fighter needs out of combat options, not better combat stats. I've presented solutions in other threads, if you want to, feel free to try and find them.
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I have a proposition.
I think once a week someone should just make a single thread discussing paladin alignment C/MD and that other issue that always come up. But you guys are only allowed one thread a week and you can't reference it anywhere else. We can just call it the Forbidden thread. (forbidden thread 2 3 4 etc for later ones.) Aside from that thread the issues may not be spoken anywhere else.
I have a proposition.
I think once a week someone should just make a single thread discussing paladin alignment C/MD and that other issue that always come up. But you guys are only allowed one thread a week and you can't reference it anywhere else. We can just call it the Forbidden thread. (forbidden thread 2 3 4 etc for later ones.) Aside from that thread the issues may not be spoken anywhere else.
We've tried, most of the new threads are started by newer users who haven't been around for the anthology of this subject that not only exists in this forum, but has been sorted and categorized by Kobold Cleaver.
I miss Kobold Cleaver.
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We all miss Kobold Cleaver.
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Heck made this alias in honor of him.
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Or maybe if you don't like a thread don't participate rather than complain about it and ruin the fun of those who actually enjoy the topic.
In my opinion it is the height of arrogance to say that there is nothing further to discuss.
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HEY.
NOT BARBARIAN FAULT THAT ARGUMENT AM OVER, BARBARIAN AM WINNER.
BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WINNER.
THAT AM GAME.
Come on now re-read it. did you even process what we were saying? clearly my post said the argument needed a place. If it was all located in the same place maybe it would stop repeating itself. If your not re-hashing the argument every time maybe they'll get somewhere with it.
Its also arrogant (and rude) to skim a post and assume you know what people are talking about then disparage them.
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Come on now re-read it. did you even process what we were saying? clearly my post said the argument needed a place. If it was all located in the same place maybe it would stop repeating itself. If your not re-hashing the argument every time maybe they'll get somewhere with it.
Its also arrogant (and rude) to skim a post and assume you know what people are talking about then disparage them.
Fair enough, in that case I retract my criticism.
HEY.
NOT BARBARIAN FAULT THAT ARGUMENT AM OVER, BARBARIAN AM WINNER.
BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WINNER.
THAT AM GAME.
Don't think your going to always win our Parcheesi games!
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BARBARIAN SEE ABOUT THAT.
(BARBARIAN SUNDER UNIVERSES WHERE BARBARIAN GET BAD ROLLS, LEAVING ONLY UNIVERSES WHERE BARBARIAN ROLLS AM MIGHTYFINE.
MAYBE NOT TELL PUN-PUN, AM PROBABLY SAYING THAT THIS AM CHEATING. BARBARIAN NOT SEE ANY RULE AGAINST PUNCHING CAUSALITY UNTIL IT AM LANDING WAY OF BARBARIAN, BUT DISTINCTION FREQUENTLY NOT MATTER IN DELICATE SOCIAL INTERACTION.)
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BARBARIAN RAGE ROUNDS AM POWERED BY HARNESSING HATRED OF INTERNET. SOMETHING INVOLVING DELICATE BALANCE OF TRAIT SELECTION AND BONUS FEAT? BARBARIAN NOT COMPLETELY SURE, PROBABLY SOMETHING OUT OF NUMERIA SPLATBOOK.
AM TROUBLESOME, SURE, BUT BARBARIAN BASICALLY ABLE BE INFINITE HATE MACHINE ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. SMASH AM UNENDING, FOR BEHIND FIST IS ANOTHER FIST.
AM LIKE MOVIE INCEPTION, ONLY FOR SMASH AND ACTUALLY COOL FOR WATCHING.
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Hatred of the internet wow now that is a brilliant alternative energy source. Its practically infinite.
Hatred of the internet wow now that is a brilliant alternative energy source. Its practically infinite.
AM BARBARIAN confirmed for Internet Hate Machine.
Boy has this thread been derailed.
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Speaking of trains, do Tetori monks count as 'Fighters' within this context?
If so, why don't they ever get the ability to suplex trains? Sabin is the prototypical monk, and he gets to do it.
Sabin punches t-rex's in the face for fun. He's a special case. Even I'm like "hmm I don't know he did just suplex that great Wrym."
On-topic: in reality though, is the scale of narrative power defined by how one interacts with the world or with the narrative?
For example, let's say we have a hypothetical fighter who has one of the very specific items intended for him, the Manual of War. Hell, let's just say it's a human fighter with Quick Study.
Today, this character needs to go shopping, but he needs to be able to find stuff and alas, thanks to his lack of skill ranks he can't invest into Diplomacy to perform some Gather Information checks. Or, can he? By using either mentioned resource, the fighter can switch a feat over to versatile training, pick up max ranks in diplomacy for a day, do his shopping, then switch it back over the next day. Between the multitude of options the fighter could theoretically have, it should be considered possible to have just as much skill versatility as the bard, in theory at least.
Now replace "needs to go shopping" with literally any other skill related task. The same trick applies. One could even use one of the other abilities to get something mid combat if you find yourself in a pickle like "I have no STR left thanks to some necromancy bullsh*t the DM has thrown at me, and now I am the grappled... oh no!" then uses said options to gain full ranks in Escape Artist.
Is this narrative power invalidated because wizards can cast limited wish for 1500gp a pop? Or because wizards can bend reality at 25000?
The point is, the fighter has narrative power. From the perspective of a player, you'll almost never have to worry about any sane DM telling you that your narrative power is OP.
How many wizards can say their reality altering mischief was never thwarted by a DM? I became God once.
Let's ask this question another way, in light of what is printed vs. what can be expected in a game, would you expect to see more fighters using their narrative tools or more wizards? It's a loaded question because both characters have narrative influence, now it exists even more easily.
I find it funny that the original 'fixes' to the fighter more or less came in magic item form, but now we don't want that. I think the fighter should more be the Iron Man character, and we need more fighters to view themselves that way. I believe, that is why we got Master Armorer.
Speaking of trains, do Tetori monks count as 'Fighters' within this context?
If so, why don't they ever get the ability to suplex trains? Sabin is the prototypical monk, and he gets to do it.
Spheres of Power has you covered, I mean it's technically powerbombing the train but it gets the job done.
Our hypothetical fighter here cannot make use of Versatile Training until 9th level, at which point he must be already invested in hammers, heavy blades, light blades, or polearms to take advantage of the ability to boost their Diplomacy. If the fighter has not invested in those weapon groups, they'd be out of luck, so their narrative scope is rather limited. The Manual of War doesn't help out in this circumstance, as it only swaps out bonus fighter feats for combat feats, and Versatile Training is not a feat. So, the fighter doesn't gain this narrative utility until 9th level (at the earliest), and it's limited to the skills associated with his weapon groups, and unfortunately, he'll only have one weapon group by 9th level if he takes advanced weapon training at 9th level.
That grants your fighter four skills that they can retrain (as Bluff and Intimidate are skills that are associated with all weapon groups). Unfortunately, if Knowledge (local) is something my fighter needs, or maybe they need Use Magic Device, no weapon groups are associated with those skills, so they're simply out of luck.
I'm not quite sure how you're going to retrain abilities mid-combat to escape a grapple; I doubt that most fighters are going to choose the monk weapon group just to have that option available. However, the point remains that the fighter's utility is handicapped by the mechanics associated with their concept.
Our hypothetical fighter here cannot make use of Versatile Training until 9th level, at which point he must be already invested in hammers, heavy blades, light blades, or polearms to take advantage of the ability to boost their Diplomacy. If the fighter has not invested in those weapon groups, they'd be out of luck, so their narrative scope is rather limited. The Manual of War doesn't help out in this circumstance, as it only swaps out bonus fighter feats for combat feats, and Versatile Training is not a feat. So, the fighter doesn't gain this narrative utility until 9th level (at the earliest), and it's limited to the skills associated with his weapon groups, and unfortunately, he'll only have one weapon group by 9th level if he takes advanced weapon training at 9th level.
That grants your fighter four skills that they can retrain (as Bluff and Intimidate are skills that are associated with all weapon groups). Unfortunately, if Knowledge (local) is something my fighter needs, or maybe they need Use Magic Device, no weapon groups are associated with those skills, so they're simply out of luck.
I'm not quite sure how you're going to retrain abilities mid-combat to escape a grapple; I doubt that most fighters are going to choose the monk weapon group just to have that option available. However, the point remains that the fighter's utility is handicapped by the mechanics associated with their concept.
With respect, there is a feat available to 5th level fighters which grants an additional Advanced Weapon Training ability, it can be taken every 5 levels and is a combat feat. Thus it not only qualifies for Manual of War, but it's an eligible option for Quick Study, Barroom Brawler, and the Training weapon property, accessible via Warrior Spirit.
Additionally, the rules for Versatile Training specify that if your selection included a skill you already have trained, you immediately can reassign those skill ranks to whatever else you like. One could have a fighter with Max ranks in intimidate/whatever else lines up with your weapon group, select it, then move those skill ranks over.
If that skill is somewhere on the available list of options for Versatile Training, said fighter could simply do this trick again to either reset their skills or just change them up to suit their needs.
EDIT: I suppose since I'm going all out on exposition here, I ought mention the AWT option which grants Item Mastery feats allows one to bypass the spell prerequisites for such feats, thus any fighter that has Warrior Spirit at 9th level who did not take the AWT feat (something I have mentioned in the guide) can have at virtually any time any of the item mastery feats, and use them.
Schrodinger's fighter is a thing.
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This presumes that max ranks is what is needed to be good at a skill which is true for some but not for others. You will not be better at any skill than a character that even slightly invested in it and you will not have the 10+ skills at one time that the int casters has. There is also the spell borrow skill that has to be considered is a comparison.
The manual war is great but it also risks invaliding the longer adventuring day advice popular in this thread for creating balance. The fighter wants to grab perception for the dungeon now the wizard has a day to do wizardy prep. Not to say the day is wasted both can craft or use down time.
The final issue with AWT, which is amazing, is that though it can be used to patch skills that means from 1-9 your not using it to patch will saves.
It has a lot of power but it, for many levels it solves one problem at the expense of not solving another. Giving up enhancing weapons with things like ghost touch, not being able to boost damage with your Dex build, lower initative etc. are the loss you pay when building a fighter this way.
A fighter has 5 awt feat slots, one normal awt can be used for abundant tactics to boost barroom brawler (6 useses), netting 11 of these powerful resources to adjust for a given situations (level 20). One can be changed per day per manual. Between combat feats and item mastery you can get a lot out of these and significant fexibility.
But wizards and cleric have 10 spell it's at level 5, domain/school powers, other class abilities. A Cleric at level 20 will have a minimum of 45ish flexible spots.
This presumes that max ranks is what is needed to be good at a skill which is true for some but not for others. You will not be better at any skill than a character that even slightly invested in it and you will not have the 10+ skills at one time that the int casters has. There is also the spell borrow skill that has to be considered is a comparison.
The manual war is great but it also risks invaliding the longer adventuring day advice popular in this thread for creating balance. The fighter wants to grab perception for the dungeon now the wizard has a day to do wizardy prep. Not to say the day is wasted both can craft or use down time.
The final issue with AWT, which is amazing, is that though it can be used to patch skills that means from 1-9 your not using it to patch will saves.
It has a lot of power but it, for many levels it solves one problem at the expense of not solving another. Giving up enhancing weapons with things like ghost touch, not being able to boost damage with your Dex build, lower initative etc. are the loss you pay when building a fighter this way.
A fighter has 5 awt feat slots, one normal awt can be used for abundant tactics to boost barroom brawler (6 useses), netting 11 of these powerful resources to adjust for a given situations (level 20). One can be changed per day per manual. Between combat feats and item mastery you can get a lot out of these and significant fexibility.
But wizards and cleric have 10 spell it's at level 5, domain/school powers, other class abilities. A Cleric at level 20 will have a minimum of 45ish flexible spots.
The Manual takes 1 hour to read, and lasts 24 hours. Read it while the wizard preps spells at the beginning of the day?
Also, do not forget that Improved Bravery is a combat feat that applies Bravery to all mind-affecting effects. If you take it with a bonus feat slot, then you can retrain out of it later and straight upgrade it to Armed Bravery if you feel the need to.
Barroom Brawler also has the ability to gain an extra use thanks to Stamina.
And Ghostslayer is a combat feat, thus eligible to be added to your build via all the aforementioned ways without wasting a use of your Warrior Spirit.
So does this conversation really come down to "I can't bend reality with a sword, therefore the entire engine of 3.x is worthless"? I'm being serious, because I'm giving you breakdowns of legitimate rules legal ways the fighter can do things no other class can in ways that are incredibly useful, and influential, yet it still comes down to "full casters can do more at 20th level, nya nya."
There has to be a middle ground where we accept that the fighter can do things. What more need I do? I suppose I should do more to finish the guide and never stop spamming it, that's about the only solution I can think of.
It is my hope that my posts are not found as condescending, for most of the time I assume most people on the forums are more well read and intelligent than I am, and usually I presume to think that the ideas I present aren't even mine. It is my goal not that you feel spoken down to, but rather empowered and optimistic, maybe even enough to play a fighter and dare I say it, have fun with a good character.
We must be capable of better, I believe in us.
Come on now re-read it. did you even process what we were saying? clearly my post said the argument needed a place. If it was all located in the same place maybe it would stop repeating itself. If your not re-hashing the argument every time maybe they'll get somewhere with it.
Its also arrogant (and rude) to skim a post and assume you know what people are talking about then disparage them.
If you are tired of seeing threads about it, paizo has a forum feature you can use. You can click the circle with a line through it and the thread will be hidden. You don't even need to open a thread to make it hidden.
Otherwise, without paizo paying someone a full time job to topic police the forums excruciatingly, what you're asking for isn't going to happen. It's a problem as old as internet forums and requires brutal policing to regulate and get people to stick to one thread, because people aren't going to go through exhaustive internet searching to find out if a topic has been covered before, especially considering the numerous different ways the topic can be titled/discussed. What you're asking for isn't part of the paizo forums culture.
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@ master_marshmallow.
I included basically every way for a fighter to adapt you included in you rebuttal Les stanima. I summed up the number of cutamizations you can add to a 20th level fighter then compared that to a 5th level cleric for the number of customizable "feature slots" each class has. After which I compared at equal levels.
This seems like a reasonable way to compare versatility. How many options do I have to adapt, or to prepare for a situation. Bacteria evolve much faster than eukaryotes because they can make more changes during an equal period of time.
I'm well aware of ghostslayer, rat catcher, soul blade, disruptive, Soulwrecking Strike, along with a dozen others I have advocated for in the past. These are all helpful as is awt. But if you look at level 10 (or any other level really) the fighter has 2 awt as feats and one from its class. One goes to abundant tactics, a second goes to boosting will saves and the third you can put toward anything else you like, and change it out with you manual for skills, item mastery (better with barroom though) or initative. Feats barroom, 2 awt, so the fighter has 7 free feats 2 more than a Cleric at 10
Flexible fighter level 10
Fighter has + 2 feats (post building for flexibility), 5 uses of barroom with gloves, some casting (move to grab item mastery, standard to cast and making umd near mandatory which maybe good). With buying a manual or two switching out bonus feats.
Normal cleric
The cleric has min 21 spells customized in one hour, domain powers, and channel.
* Comparing to cleric becuase they have similar skill problems or the fighter and are often build similarly. This hopefully is a fairer comparison than wizard. None of this is relevent 1-4 level (no awt). I think ten does a decent job of representing the intermediate of levels 5-10.
Skill flexibility for the fighter is nice and awt helps fill a lot of gaps. Personally I would not want to switch out the will bonus or abundant tactics so you have one slot to move around but you can do a pretty powerful thing each day with it.
Improved bravery is fine. But required 13 cha which starts to make the fighter quite mad.
I like pathfinder I have never called in unplayable or even said the fighter is bad. Fighter can do more things than they ever have which is nice.
I don't read your stuff as condescending. I do however read frustration that I think comes from the thread as a whole but slips out when I have not really been fighting you, but that's bound to happen or I could be miss reading.
* as an easy short had I often compare what classes receive over 20 levels not at level 20. I do this becuase coming at any given level may give one class an advantage (level 6 for full Bab classes or level 5 for wizards). So I say things like this class has 26 points of accuracy over 20 level, where class two only gets 24. It is an easy why of comparing what the class gets over all without getting marred in when each and every class feature comes online.
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...
The fighter (and by tangent the Brawler as well) honestly are the wizards of martial characters, in that they require a lot of reading and a lot of book work but have loads of potential that can be modulated by the player and not the DM.
This true. The work is worth imo.
Come on now re-read it. did you even process what we were saying? clearly my post said the argument needed a place. If it was all located in the same place maybe it would stop repeating itself. If your not re-hashing the argument every time maybe they'll get somewhere with it.
Its also arrogant (and rude) to skim a post and assume you know what people are talking about then disparage them.
If you are tired of seeing threads about it, paizo has a forum feature you can use. You can click the circle with a line through it and the thread will be hidden. You don't even need to open a thread to make it hidden.
Otherwise, without paizo paying someone a full time job to topic police the forums excruciatingly, what you're asking for isn't going to happen. It's a problem as old as internet forums and requires brutal policing to regulate and get people to stick to one thread, because people aren't going to go through exhaustive internet searching to find out if a topic has been covered before, especially considering the numerous different ways the topic can be titled/discussed. What you're asking for isn't part of the paizo forums culture.
Plus even if you get them to talk about it on the same thread everytime it died for more than a couple of months the first handful of post would be about people necro'ing threads.
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Our hypothetical fighter here cannot make use of Versatile Training until 9th level, at which point he must be already invested in hammers, heavy blades, light blades, or polearms to take advantage of the ability to boost their Diplomacy. If the fighter has not invested in those weapon groups, they'd be out of luck, so their narrative scope is rather limited. The Manual of War doesn't help out in this circumstance, as it only swaps out bonus fighter feats for combat feats, and Versatile Training is not a feat. So, the fighter doesn't gain this narrative utility until 9th level (at the earliest), and it's limited to the skills associated with his weapon groups, and unfortunately, he'll only have one weapon group by 9th level if he takes advanced weapon training at 9th level.
That grants your fighter four skills that they can retrain (as Bluff and Intimidate are skills that are associated with all weapon groups). Unfortunately, if Knowledge (local) is something my fighter needs, or maybe they need Use Magic Device, no weapon groups are associated with those skills, so they're simply out of luck.
I'm not quite sure how you're going to retrain abilities mid-combat to escape a grapple; I doubt that most fighters are going to choose the monk weapon group just to have that option available. However, the point remains that the fighter's utility is handicapped by the mechanics associated with their concept.
With respect, there is a feat available to 5th level fighters which grants an additional Advanced Weapon Training ability, it can be taken every 5 levels and is a combat feat. Thus it not only qualifies for Manual of War, but it's an eligible option for Quick Study, Barroom Brawler, and the Training weapon property, accessible via Warrior Spirit.
Additionally, the rules for Versatile Training specify that if your selection included a skill you already have trained, you immediately can reassign those skill ranks to whatever else you like. One could have a fighter with Max ranks in intimidate/whatever else lines up with your weapon group, select it, then move those skill ranks over.
If that skill is somewhere on the available list of options for Versatile Training, said fighter could simply do this trick again to either reset their skills or just change them up to suit their needs.
EDIT: I suppose since I'm going all out on exposition here, I ought mention the AWT option which grants Item Mastery feats allows one to bypass the spell prerequisites for such feats, thus any fighter that has Warrior Spirit at 9th level who did not take the AWT feat (something I have mentioned in the guide) can have at virtually any time any of the item mastery feats, and use them.
Schrodinger's fighter is a thing.
With respect,
The issue with not being invested in the proper weapon groups to get the skills you need remains unaddressed; this is a bug, not a feature. Also, the level of system mastery required to get all of these features to come online is pretty significant. The amount of specific feats required to do what you need can significantly handicap the fighter, who relies upon their feat choices to keep pace with other martial characters in terms of combat effectiveness. This is also a bug.
This is far less Schrödinger's Fighter and more of a highly specific solution that does not universally resolve the general problem.
@ master_marshmallow.
I included basically every way for a fighter to adapt you included in you rebuttal Les stanima. I summed up the number of cutamizations you can add to a 20th level fighter then compared that to a 5th level cleric for the number of customizable "feature slots" each class has. After which I compared at equal levels.
This seems like a reasonable way to compare versatility. How many options do I have to adapt, or to prepare for a situation. Bacteria evolve much faster than eukaryotes because they can make more changes during an equal period of time.
I'm well aware of ghostslayer, rat catcher, soul blade, disruptive, Soulwrecking Strike, along with a dozen others I have advocated for in the past. These are all helpful as is awt. But if you look at level 10 (or any other level really) the fighter has 2 awt as feats and one from its class. One goes to abundant tactics, a second goes to boosting will saves and the third you can put toward anything else you like, and change it out with you manual for skills, item mastery (better with barroom though) or initative. Feats barroom, 2 awt, so the fighter has 7 free feats 2 more than a Cleric at 10
Flexible fighter level 10
Fighter has + 2 feats (post building for flexibility), 5 uses of barroom with gloves, some casting (move to grab item mastery, standard to cast and making umd near mandatory which maybe good). With buying a manual or two switching out bonus feats.
Normal cleric
The cleric has min 21 spells customized in one hour, domain powers, and channel.
* Comparing to cleric becuase they have similar skill problems or the fighter and are often build similarly. This hopefully is a fairer comparison than wizard. None of this is relevent 1-4 level (no awt). I think ten does a decent job of representing the intermediate of levels 5-10.
Skill flexibility for the fighter is nice and awt helps fill a lot of gaps. Personally I would not want to switch out the will bonus or abundant tactics so you have one...
Imho, Armed Bravery is better later on, as a free upgrade to Improved Bravery. For earlier builds, this opens up options. There's a few abilities that still pose a threat as non mind affecting Will saves, but I feel those more mandate one of your uses of BB to upgrade your Will saves in that individual fight, rather than wasting one of your AWT slots permanently.
In such a fight, I would think gaining +3 or 4 to Will saves (depending on whether you got the Sash of the War Champion) ought to be worth a move action.
I also would recommend NOT taking two AWT options through feats until 15th, as you'll want an "open slot" to be able to pick whatever one you want on the daily. Apologies if your math already assumes this given your acknowledgement of the Manual of War.
There's also an Advanced Armor Training that grants full ranks in a single skill, with a different list. There's some gems in there, too, perfect to have temporarily.
I'll respect your effort in calculating the quantity of variables present in each case, but would seek to open the conversation in a direction that compares the relative quality of those options.
I seem to recall hating damn near every 2nd level spell on the cleric list, for example.
When making this comparison, we ought not forget that the classes we are comparing are meant to serve different roles to the players piloting them. If we intend to compare fruit, then we need to make sure everyone knows we understand the difference between apples, oranges, and tomatoes. In fact, there may be more recipes that require one of said fruits over the other two, but that doesn't mean someone else can't enjoy a meal made from one of the other two. Different fruits have different rules, some ripen faster, some need to be refrigerated, and some perish much sooner.
But they're still all fruit. We should all eat more fresh fruit.
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For each kind of character it seems like "this one is simple and easy, but this other one is complex and intricate" is a fine thing to have. So I don't know why "Druids are complicated, Oracles are easy" is fine but "Fighters are complicated, Barbarians are easy" is not. Is it just that "person with a sword" as a concept is supposed to be a thing that is simple?
I would offer that, in a world with this much magic floating around, the person eschewing doing pretty much all of it themselves, but nonetheless keeping up, is going to be someone who works a lot harder than most of their contemporaries.
Since people have different tolerances sensibilities involving things which are simple or things that let them invoke a huge percentage of the books they own, it makes sense to cater to a lot of different desires here.
To me the issue is that you have to put in more effort to get similar results out of comparable classes not that one class is easy and one class is hard. The reward for all the time and effort is... being as good as a decent Ranger.For each kind of character it seems like "this one is simple and easy, but this other one is complex and intricate" is a fine thing to have. So I don't know why "Druids are complicated, Oracles are easy" is fine but "Fighters are complicated, Barbarians are easy" is not. Is it just that "person with a sword" as a concept is supposed to be a thing that is simple?
I would offer that, in a world with this much magic floating around, the person eschewing doing pretty much all of it themselves, but nonetheless keeping up, is going to be someone who works a lot harder than most of their contemporaries.
Then it is duty to inform you that the ranger is straight comparable to our perfect fighter, with few exceptions.
Perhaps it is that you have not yet seen it function, and thus you do not believe?
Would you be willing to play one, if we collectively build it so you don't have to waste time reading up on nonsense that may not be helpful? Not meant to be condescending, but I legitimately opine that the guys who dislike the fighter are the one's who should be playing it. It is for them that I wrote the guide in the first place. That and reducing the effort you proclaim to covet so much.
It is for you that the guide exists, friend.
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I just personally don't see "Max Skill" ranks as a good level of narrative power... if it was then Core Rogues wouldn't be anywhere near at the bottom of the tier list.
But if somebody has fun with the whole "quick study, barroom brawler, training enhancement, item mastery advanced weapon training" song and dance, there's really no need to take that away.
Sometimes people have more fun by constructively combining different rules interactions than they would from a simple mechanical bonus of the same amount.
I just personally don't see "Max Skill" ranks as a good level of narrative power... if it was then Core Rogues wouldn't be anywhere near at the bottom of the tier list.
It's not about the skills, it's about the potential to have them.
It's that the potential to have them is just one club in the fighter's golfbag of narrative tools. It's in many ways better than just having a couple more skill ranks per level.
To retort the notion that 'putting in effort to make your character' is badwrongfun, I would assert that the very premise of PFRPG as a whole when compared to every other edition out there (especially right now) the vast wealth of options and potential for variety that comes from multiple sources is a feature of the game. Need I remind you that the CRB was written in a way intended to be compatible with nigh all of 3.5's splat before PFRPG had its own?
I respect that you like to order your meal straight off the menu, and even that you are capable of going to a retaurant with different menus, but there are some that like to make special requests of the kitchen. At the end of the day though, any meal just ends up in the toilet.
You could even say that a fighter is more fun when you've done the work to make the class function better compared to playing some cookie cutter build that just follows along with the table in the class guide. However, if you said that it would be an opinion and not a fact.
Not to be snide, but honestly 'not wanting put in effort' is a play style heavily rewarded in other systems and punished in PFRPG. I can't tell you how to game, but I can tell you that if you try it out, you might have just as much fun.
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Imho, Armed Bravery is better later on, as a free upgrade to Improved Bravery. For earlier builds, this opens up options. There's a few abilities that still pose a threat as non mind affecting Will saves, but I feel those more mandate one of your uses of BB to upgrade your Will saves in that individual fight, rather than wasting one of your AWT slots permanently.
In such a fight, I would think gaining +3 or 4 to Will saves (depending on whether you got the Sash of the War Champion) ought to be worth a move action.
It's hard for me to recommend reactionary save benefits that are not free or mediate actions. The fighter would have to have the skills to know the spells and spell like abilities of the enemy to use it before they do, while also beating them in initiative.
I also would recommend NOT taking two AWT options through feats until 15th, as you'll want an "open slot" to be able to pick whatever one you want on the daily. Apologies if your math already assumes this given your acknowledgement of the Manual of War.
Your right here I was thinking of taking AWT and substituting it for AWT with a different option but I don't think the wording on the manual lets you do that. The option is a little weaker at level 10 then I thought.
There's also an Advanced Armor Training that grants full ranks in a single skill, with a different list. There's some gems in there, too, perfect to have temporarily.
This is an okay option but Acrobatics, Climb, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (engineering), Profession (soldier), Ride, or Swim are not strong options. If you need them for your build you will already have Intimidate or ride, Escape artist is ok but even with max ranks CMD will be better on the vast majority of fighters without strength damage. For the situation you are grapples with strength damage or you're a dex fighter that did not invest in escape artist it's good.
I'll respect your effort in calculating the quantity of variables present in each case, but would seek to open the conversation in a direction that compares the relative quality of those options.I seem to recall hating damn near every 2nd level spell on the cleric list, for example.
The best way to compare is to look at quantity and quality. I don't have time to do it exhaustively but her is a micro look. Using just second and third level spell with no need for saves. This should be the fairest comparison.
Level 2
Align Weapon, Angelic Aspect, Lesser, Augury, Darkness, Cure Spells, Defending bone, Delay condition spells, Gentle Repose, Grace, instant weapon, instant armor, Iron skin, Pilfering Hand, Make whole, remove condition, lesser restoration, Resist Energy, Savage Maw, Silence, Spiritual weapon.
Level 3
Align Weapon Communal, Bestow Insight, Blessing of the Mole, Chain of Perdition, Channel the gift, Channel Vigor, Daylight, Dispel Magic, Locate Object, Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Magic Vestment, Monstrous Extremities, Prayer, More remove spells, Resist Energy Communal, Shield of Darkness, Water Breathing, water walk, Wind wall, and the notorious summon monster starts getting useful at this level.
Many of these effects directly solve or mitigate common problems in the game. Ability damage, incorporeal creatures, DR, mind control, energy damage, light conditions, caster neutralization, condition removal AC, DPR in really meaningful ways.
When making this comparison, we ought not forget that the classes we are comparing are meant to serve different roles to the players piloting them. If we intend to compare fruit, then we need to make sure everyone knows we understand the difference between apples, oranges, and tomatoes. In fact, there may be more recipes that require one of said fruits over the other two, but that doesn't mean someone else can't enjoy a meal made from one of the other two. Different fruits have different rules, some ripen faster, some need to be refrigerated, and some perish much sooner.But they're still all fruit. We should all eat more fresh fruit.
People can and should play fighters, or any other class if they like. Fighters are really popular because they are clean and simple and some people like the fantasy of hitting stuff.
This is an analogy I don't know if it is factual in terms of frequency of use.
Tomatoes and Mangos are both fruits. Mangos are the most popular fruit on the planet but tomatoes are used in more different dishes. In some cases a creative chef can have a mango take the place of a tomato but it may not ever achieve the versatility of a tomato.
Side note: For many people I play with, that play fighters, if they were going to play an Iron Caster type of fighter, they would just accept the complexity and play something like a warpriest. I'm sure it is different among different groups but most people I know that like the fighters, like the simplicity at the table. It's in good that there are now better options for people that want a more complex more versatile fighter but there are lots of options in pathfinder for versatile and complicated.