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A Hunter in Lava: Resist Energy (fire) is a first level spell.....

A Hunter that has to look for something: Both themselves and their pet are ridiculously good at perception and survival. Spells and animal aspect help.

A Hunter that has to fight in the sky: I cast Air Walk on my Wolf

A Hunter that has to hide: Animal Aspect helps.

A Hunter has to follow a flying enemy that's fast: Aerial Tracks spell

A Hunter has to deal with animals: :)

A Hunter's group has to go underwater/into poison gas/into space: Life Bubble

Yeah I don't think Hunter belongs on that list at all. They can't do everything out of combat, but they are very very good at what they should do.

I mean, can we get a similar writeup of how much it costs to have the hard copies of all the books with all the different spells and magic items and archetypes an optimized caster gets?

I think my Hunter used ACG, Core, and Ultimate Combat.

A lot of his hilarity came from Resist Energy being a first level spell, Barkskin, and getting his wolf to bite people like 3 times a turn while slapping with his scimitar like 3 times a turn.

Part of the problem might be that even with all the Fighter boosts it doesn't fix the chassis problem of the Fighter? I could be wrong though.

Yeah I don't wanna put in the effort because to put it simply, I would rather put in the effort for a class that makes better use of it. My Hunter build was a lot of effort and it paid off beautifully. Same for my Bard's. Same for my Ranger. Effort for those classes made them excel instead of meeting some tic marks.

My Conscript (Spheres of Might class) is what I will spend the effort on next because I like doing cool stuff. By the way my offer still stands if you want a Sphere's of Might PDF to read.

How did "it takes a lot of effort to make a Fighter as good as a baseline X class" become "Reviewman hates putting effort into character creation"? Man you are making this way to personal.

But if somebody has fun with the whole "quick study, barroom brawler, training enhancement, item mastery advanced weapon training" song and dance, there's really no need to take that away.

Sometimes people have more fun by constructively combining different rules interactions than they would from a simple mechanical bonus of the same amount.

I can concede that maybe it's more someone's style to play that character.

I'd rather play a Conscript from Spheres of Might. I don't play PFS and my group is always willing to give 3PP a shot. I have access to Conscript, Battle Lord, Blacksmith, Hunter, and alternate paths martial characters.

Also I do believe your Fighter is as good as a Ranger and have for a while. But thats just it, it's as good as something that needs less effort to be as good.

For each kind of character it seems like "this one is simple and easy, but this other one is complex and intricate" is a fine thing to have. So I don't know why "Druids are complicated, Oracles are easy" is fine but "Fighters are complicated, Barbarians are easy" is not. Is it just that "person with a sword" as a concept is supposed to be a thing that is simple?

I would offer that, in a world with this much magic floating around, the person eschewing doing pretty much all of it themselves, but nonetheless keeping up, is going to be someone who works a lot harder than most of their contemporaries.

To me the issue is that you have to put in more effort to get similar results out of comparable classes not that one class is easy and one class is hard. The reward for all the time and effort is... being as good as a decent Ranger.

Honestly this fighter sounds like an absolute chore to build and set up even if it does work as described on the tin. Also it's near impossible to make by accident. Like someone can accidentally make a good Barbarian, Hunter, Ranger, Brawler, ect but you need a PHD in character building to make a good fighter.

I'd rather play my Conscript from Sphere's of Might that actually does everything you would expect from the Fighter class.

As for "doesnt compare the 9th level casters" honestly I hate that argument too. Eventually my group realized the problem isnt other classes failing to be as good as 9th level casters. It's 9th level casters that are the problem.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Just decide to go evil and pick up some wands of infernal healing? It's on the Bloodrager list too!

We're heroes!*

*and this isn't PFS so we have to care about evil spells.

Semi related to CM/D. Spells like Infernal healing take forever to heal players. Sometimes that is fine, like after fighting a Chimera attacking a Caravan or something. In a situation like infiltrating a castle, raiding a dungeon, or any other unified environment it's a huge risk. When my players decide to camp in a room for 3-5 minutes looting and healing after a combat I occasionally reallocate forces depending on how careful they were. One time I had someone from the next room encounter wander into the room to ask to borrow a deck of cards and start the fight early when he saw the party healing.

Part of mitigating disparity is having NPCs act realistically. Combat is loud, people walk around, and when you're someplace people don't want you to be wasting time is not a good idea.

Witch can easily sub in as a healer though, and with 3 others that can cast spells, pretty sure you'll have enough Cure light wounds or Wands around.

Also while I'm here about the running of third parties; I've had more experiences with busted or combersome 3rd Party classes than the usual Caster/Fighter issuse(Machinesmith from.. God how long ago was that?)

Yeah I'd say at least 50% of 3pp is unbalanced or at least inelegant design. Its definitely worth doing research on the products before buying them. Even SoP has problems such as weather sphere being busted, but it's way easier to spot.

Spjere's of Might is plain what Martials should be.

Sure

So in my group we have had two effective methods.

1. A character building session where we look at roles and try to create a cohesive unit. While this does produce balanced parties it rarely leaves a pure martial in the party. Lots of 6th level casters. Upside is that the party is relatively balanced.

2. We dont use Paizo classes. It honestly doesn't make you steamroll or get steamrolled unless you decide to use some of the lower quality 3PP. Anyone looking to go this route look at Sphere's of Might/Power and stuff from Amora Games.

Serghar Cromwell wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Serghar Cromwell wrote:

How can it be a feature of the game if it's a myth propagated by people with agendas?

The mechanics of the game objectively prove it to be a feature, saying it's a myth is likewise "a myth propagated by people with agendas."

In short, you're the Pot calling the Kettle black, buddy.

I think your sarcasm detector needs new batteries.

Or a sarcasm detector doesn't work too well on text-based mediums without extremely obvious cues, this being one of those times.

To be fair I would have gotten confused if I didnt know that was a quote from a Paizo dev too.

Assuming no use of 3PP and all players were close enough in skill level the best method our group has is a character building session. We get together and discuss characters to determine optimization level.

Usually this leads to everyone being a partial or full caster or at least a very optimized bruiser.

A self flanking Wolf Mounted Hunter is pretty good and does an amazing job of replacing most Ranger concepts.

Serghar Cromwell wrote:

How can it be a feature of the game if it's a myth propagated by people with agendas?

The mechanics of the game objectively prove it to be a feature, saying it's a myth is likewise "a myth propagated by people with agendas."

In short, you're the Pot calling the Kettle black, buddy.

He is quoting one of the devs. Jason Buhlman I believe.

Will.Spencer wrote:

I was thinking again on the topic of balancing casters vs fighters and it occurred to me that three simple and easy to implement changes would alter the math significantly:

• Remove the +5 limit on magic weapons and armor (this is already gone for those of us who play epic)
  
• Halve the cost of magic weapons
  
• Halve the cost of magic armor (not including Bracers of Defense, Rings of Protection, etc..)
  

One concern is that gives Clerics (and other armored casters) a large boost. If that turns out to be a significant issue, it might be better to halve the cost of magic weapons, but not magic armor.

What are your thoughts?

While this is one way to do it, I personally feel you would be over looking the core problem at hand. This is not a character class weakness which causes the disparity between these classes but rather is a fundamental flaw in the game mechanics which needs to be addressed. Once it is, all the other pieces fall into place.

1) Full Attacks are a STANDARD ACTION. Yes this allows for full attacks plus movement. This is on par with how earlier editions of the game did it for decades without issue.

Scenario: Targets are spread 30 ft apart.
Answer: Archers can shoot at anything on the open field. Mages can Quick cast two fireballs 800 feet + away from each other. Yet a 20th level melee can only attack one target, even if he drops that target with a single hit? Really?!

2) Remove the penalty to iterative attacks. IE; at BAB +6 you do not get two attacks at + 6 / + 1, you simply get two attacks at + 6. Unless you are getting into high level game play this really only effects the full martial classes anyway, which is exactly what it should be doing. Again, older editions did it this way (for specialists) and it worked fine.

3) Consolidate (some) feat chains. Two Weapon Fighting for example automatically scales at the appropriate level without...

My friend I would like to buy you a pdf of Spheres of Might. It does similar things to what you want without messing up game math. PM me

Thats the beauty of 3PP. They can institute large changes like replacing all the Paizo classes without requiring an edition change. My current belief is that the big problem with Pathfinder is the classes and not the system surounding them.

Sometimes people enter threads and post off topic replies for completely unknown reasons.

It really depends on what kind of fantasy people have.

Do they think more like traditional gritty fantasy? Magical badasses? Mythological badasses like Cu Chulain? Heck anime like Fate/Stay Night?

Pathfinder with Paizo can support someone who wants to be Merlin, but cannot support Cu Chulain.

Though to be accurate no traditional fantasy mage is anything like a Paizo mage so comparisons to characters like Gandalf, Merlin, or what have you are as out of place to Pathfinder and a hero like Superman.

If your game is already concrete then my advice may not be the most helpful. Our groups have found the most effective and simple way to play with minimal C/MD issues is to not use classes designed by paizo. In the curent campaign we are using Sphere's of Might and Sphere's of Power as our core class books and it's working very well.

Sphere's of Power makes our mages more specialized while still letting them be magical.

Sphere's of Might lets our martials have more tools to interact with the world without resorting to being magic themselves.

I think we should all read more.

This is the xxxxxth time we have had this thread and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

Reviewman wrote:

Envall wrote:

Omnius wrote:

Knowing how to tiptoe around a problem does not excuse the problem existing in the first place, and does not mean the problem is not there.

Yes, I know there's a giant pot hole on my route home. Yes, I know to swerve to miss it. I feel the trip would be more enjoyable if there weren't a pothole that I had to remember to swerve around every day.

Ok, I'm feeling a bit sassy, but you do realize this is all platitudes now?

I can make my own story spin too. Let's say it is not a pot hole, it is a decorative bollard. Sure, it is in the middle of the intersection, but the road is wide enough, and the designated lanes clearly avoid it. Now a driver has his god given right to just say "well if they didn't want me to crash into it, WHY PUT IT THERE!" and gas pedal right into it out of pure sheer of will, but even this just turns into a platitude.

By the end of that day, if we strip the platitudes, we are asking whether the system is flawed, or is our application of the system.

Considering how easy it is to accidentally break the game I'm gonna go with the system being flawed.

And by "the system" they mean literally every RPG ever created as well as every tabletop wargame and most every video game.

I dont see how that response from you was in any sort of way a response to my post. Please rewrite and elaborate.

Omnius wrote:

Knowing how to tiptoe around a problem does not excuse the problem existing in the first place, and does not mean the problem is not there.

Yes, I know there's a giant pot hole on my route home. Yes, I know to swerve to miss it. I feel the trip would be more enjoyable if there weren't a pothole that I had to remember to swerve around every day.

Ok, I'm feeling a bit sassy, but you do realize this is all platitudes now?

I can make my own story spin too. Let's say it is not a pot hole, it is a decorative bollard. Sure, it is in the middle of the intersection, but the road is wide enough, and the designated lanes clearly avoid it. Now a driver has his god given right to just say "well if they didn't want me to crash into it, WHY PUT IT THERE!" and gas pedal right into it out of pure sheer of will, but even this just turns into a platitude.

By the end of that day, if we strip the platitudes, we are asking whether the system is flawed, or is our application of the system.

Considering how easy it is to accidentally break the game I'm gonna go with the system being flawed.

I stopped using Paizo classes and the issue has mostly disapeared. In general using 3PP has made the game more fun for everyone involved.

Entertaining but maybe a smidge over the top.

...admittedly sarcastic hypothetical scenario...

May have been what was aimed for

So how do you balance casters/martials? I don't know but in my own experience and bias, don' let power gamers get a hold of them.

The biggest issue with that idea is that "power gamer" is a completely meaningless concept. All it really means is "someone whose skill at character building or preferred level of system mastery is significantly different than one or more other players at the table". I, personally, have literally brought the same character (a Hunter, no less) to three different games and had the reactions at each table vary from "OMG, we said no power-gaming!" to "Dude, we said this was going to be a high difficulty game and that's what you show up with? We're not going to carry you if you can't keep up". On the Pathfinder Facebook forums there was a GM complaining about a player who was "power gaming" because they played a fighter with a 16 STR, Power Attack, and a scythe; 1 core class plus 1 core feat plus 1 core weapon and a fairly average primary stat was power gaming in this person's opinion. There's no gauge to delineate what power gaming is because it's purely contextual.

But let's say there was a gauge... What follows is an admittedly sarcastic hypothetical scenario revolving around the solution quoted at the top of this post.

As GMs, we have hypothetically instituted a test to detect power gaming so we can prevent these power gamers from contributing to disparity issues at the table.

GM: All right everyone, I've collected the tests I had you all take at the start of the evening and graded them all based on your performances. Solid C+ work from you Jen and Tom, go ahead and build whatever you want. Alex, I'm afraid you and I are going to have to have a talk.

Alex: Uh, what seems to be the issue GM?

GM: Alex, I'm afraid that you scored over 80% on your exam. You won't be allowed to play an characters with 6th - 9th level spellcasting.

Alex: Wait, I scored high so I can't play spellcasters?

GM: That's exactly right Alex. It's like how Robert Jordan applied for the Boston police department but was turned down because his aptitude scores were too high.

Alex: Well maybe I'll play a-

GM: Sorry Alex, I wasn't quite done yet. Because you also correctly answered the extra credit question at the end of the test, I'm also going to have to bar you from playing Alchemists, Barbarians, Brawlers, Investigators, Paladins, Rangers, Slayers, Vigilantes, and anything with "unchained" in the name.

Alex: So I can play what, fighters, cavaliers, monks, or rogues?

GM: Actually, since section 3 of the test indicates that you actually understand the mounted combat and use magic device rules, I'm afraid I can't have you playing a cavalier or rogue either.

Alex: You know what, screw it, I'd rather not play.

GM: I had a suspicion you'd say that based on your test scores Alex, which is why I've already notarized your test. Didn't you find it odd that you had to write your name at the end of the test instead of the beginning? That section was actually a legally binding contract forcing you to play for at least 150 sessions and purchase a minimum of $50 worth of products per quarter for the duration or face a $2,000 fine.

Alex: Why is this happening to me?

GM: Because you're too smart for your own good Alex, and I can't afford for this necessary test to scare people off from the hobby. There's dozens of designers with bills to pay and mouths to feed.

Alex: Could I maybe at least play Starfinder instead?

GM: Alex, we both know that now that this test has identified you as a power gamer, you're not going to be welcome at many tables. As GMs we have to recognize that there are a lot of people out there; people who aren't as good at math as you, people whose reading skills aren't as sharp as yours, and people who simply aren't as invested in learning the ins and outs of the game as you are. I cannot and will not allow someone with the audacity to pour the kind of love and effort into a game that you've shown the potential for to ruin it for everyone else.

Alex: So... how am I supposed to have fun?

GM: I strongly suggest that in your next life you aim a little lower and collect a few more participation trophies.

Alex: What if I don't believe in reincarnation?

GM: Then you're screwed Alex, because power gamers can't go to heaven.

Yeah I definitely should have put "melee" in there.

Equipment Talent: Polearm mastery
Lancer Legendary Talent: Superb Reach

The short version of my feedback is that reach weapon combat is arguably the strongest form of combat within Pathfinder despite its current limitations and part of its balancing factors is the attempt to mitigate the limitations.

With that in mind removing the dead zone is a very serious balance change for a talent as well as further increasing the reach advantage. Not only is the balance of such changes dubious, but it actively makes combat less interesting by eliminating the dead zone.

What I would most prefer to see changed:

Polearm Mastery: Just have it give an attack penalty to choke up and have it available from low levels. A -5 penalty lets the talent accomplish the goal of letting you keep using your favorite weapon, but makes the previous alternatives like bite attacks, UAS, or spiked armor maintain viability.

Superb Reach: Just remove this. Replace it with anything interesting. If you must keep it then have it only active on your own turn or something.

Yes, we unlocked guidelines for converting monsters to Spheres of Might back at the $12,000 mark. The $26,000 stretchgoal simply adds an example monster for each Challenge Rating (eg, Rhinos using the Lancer sphere). Since this doesn't add anything that we couldn't convert ourselves using the guidelines they're giving us, it's understandable why many would want to get the two extra classes included in this book instead. :)

I would actually prefer less classes. Generally as a book tries to add more classes it treads on grounds that have already been tread upon.

Holy Knight? We already have Paladins.

Teamwork oriented pet class? We already have Hunters.

ect

Though I think a progression for animal companions would be nice.

Air0r wrote:

I was doing a simple class DPR comparison recently. By level 8 many martial classes seem to be right above 100 to about 138 (in the case of the barbarian). Admittedly, my calculations didn't take nat 20s, nat 1s, or misses into account. (this definitely caused a skewed result for unchained rogues who were dual wielding, who are looking at something close to 180 on a full attack with average damage and no misses)

I don't know how you reached that high numbers, but using Elite Array + normal WBL I think only really maxed out natural attack builds or heavily buffed ones come anywhere close to this Striker. It is too much and some of these options need to be nerfed.

** spoiler omitted **...

He got those numbers because he didn't actually calculate DPR. He didn't calculate misses, so he's describing average damage assuming each attack lands.

Reviewman wrote:

I just want to drop in and say that the Legendary Talents should not be locked behind level 10. Instead each talent should have a BAB associated with it as appropriate.

I understand Scout Sphere will make a character very stealthy and that's cool, but at level 5 a Wizard can cast Invisibility sphere up to three times in one day. For a Sphere caster they could get their entire party to have a +6 on Stealth as well as Hide in Plain Sight by 5th level. For a Castle Infiltration which would you think is more valuable? I would say the entire party being able to participate instead of one guy going Splinter Cell.

Options competitive with that may be considered Legendary Talent material, but a character shouldn't need to wait till level 10 to compete with stuff another class in the same niche did at level 5.

As far as I'm aware, that's how we're doing them, so you don't need to worry there.

That is absolutely awesome to hear. Thank you :)

If I'm reading correctly most characters start with 3 Talents correct?

I just want to drop in and say that the Legendary Talents should not be locked behind level 10. Instead each talent should have a BAB associated with it as appropriate.

I understand Scout Sphere will make a character very stealthy and that's cool, but at level 5 a Wizard can cast Invisibility sphere up to three times in one day. For a Sphere caster they could get their entire party to have a +6 on Stealth as well as Hide in Plain Sight by 5th level. For a Castle Infiltration which would you think is more valuable? I would say the entire party being able to participate instead of one guy going Splinter Cell.

Options competitive with that may be considered Legendary Talent material, but a character shouldn't need to wait till level 10 to compete with stuff another class in the same niche did at level 5.

Currently what I find to be one of the biggest problems with Pathfinder is tasks outside of combat.

For example say you find a secret passage into a castle. Would you rather have a Rogue who can go in and sneak around to find stuff, but can't do much since he's by himself or have the wizard prepare several invisibility spheres so that the entire party can sneak in no problem and be both safer and better able to respond?

I'd love to see some talents that allow characters to bring that level of usefulness to a party, but not gated behind advanced talents. After all the Wizard can literally take that spell up to three times at level 5.

Currently the real point of Poisons is the same as that of consumables. You want to have a decently challenging encounter, but don't want to inflate the PCs wallets. So you have the NPCs spend their wealth on unlootable items.

When he last mentioned it he said that he wanted to see his next playtest begin by the end of January.

Is their any intent to either make a class or achetype that more seamlessly blends SoP and SoM? Also how well can a class that gets limited feats/bonus feats buy into SoM, such as the Paladin who gets almost none.

What sorts of classes do you think will have priority for SoM archeetypes, Paizo classes or classes from DDS? Lastly will any non-DDS classes get archetypes, such as the Battle Lord?

Practiced swimmer is pretty much exactly what I wanted to see actually.

One time we were fighting a Kraken and our party barbarian was very happy when it grappled him because it meant he wouldn't have to swim.

So any chance we can get something to make swimming easier? Currently the rules for swim checks are pretty horrific.

Something I would like to see in this book are some talents to interact with spells that martials normally can't interact with at all.

My biggest annoyance and example is the spell "alarm" which seems relatively innocuous until you realize that it's impossible to detect without spamming detect magic, impossible to inactivate without a dispel, and impossible to pass through without it triggering except through teleportation.

A level 20 Rogue cannot bypass a level one Bard's alarm.

Something simple in the Scout Sphere could be a little "spidey sense" when you're coming close to magical auras or something of the like. Maybe another sphere could allow a character to dispel area spells using disable device and several rounds.

Any other strange stuff in Pathfinder such as spells or subsystems you guys wish your character could interact with?

Personally I would like to see a Rogue Talent and possibly Slayer/Investigator Talent that gives access to specific spheres appropriate for "Rogue Duties" such as the mentioned Scout Sphere.

Also in a limited sense I'd love to see a Domain (Inquisitors and Clerics can take Domains) that grants some sphere stuff.

Dual Wielding Tower Shields? Source is Log Horizon

It's impossible to release a book completely error free and with perfect explanations for each ability, so I'm glad that the author is so accessible to reach for questions.

Glad I own this book!

Someday I shall back you

How about a daeva capable of infiltrating and attacking Collectives.

That sounds more like a cool Veil.

Any chance that the new passion(s) in Veridean dreams will have less of a combat focus?

Ok, sounds like Veridian dreams is going to cover a ton of ground!

What I want to see are more veils that are non-adventure oriented. The kind of Veils an Akashic Bestiary critter would use to show it self as a "false" god, such as creating rain, making entire fields of crops wither/bloom, some form of far vision, ect. The kind of stuff that a village would care about or fear over something specifically combat oriented.

Some of the replies to the question "what do you wanna see" seem to have answers coming from you in the vein of "already working/finished that"

So what is already written? That way we don't ask for something that's already just a publication away.

Nature Veils and Passions/Philosophies?
Non-combat focused Passions?
ect

I've talked to Ssalarn about this one before and I hope it comes to fruition!

A skill based Curiosity Passion with the split being secrecy and education. Passion veils would primarily be veils with more of a focus on accomplishing tasks involving acquiring, sharing, and using knowledge. Base Passion would involve benefits for going with light armor, since that's generally helpful for sleuthing, espionage, and many other skills.

Secrecy would give skill unlocks for any skill a veil is augmenting while education could make aid another (think of the out of combat skill stuff) more powerful.

To go with this a veil for long distance communications would be pretty cool as would one for interrogation.

Yeah the Enigma is probably my new favorite Vigilante specialization and it's even cooler because it stacks with so many cool archetypes.

The X-Man inspired talents are pretty great and I'm thinking I'll end up grabbing an interesting amalgam of talents+mutations. Really looking forward to running one of these guys.

My Nameer Guru was a pretty great rogue.

I took a feat to invest two veils in the hand slots, chose Force Strike Gauntlets and Lashing Spinnerets (Gloves of the Master Thief if I expected any sort of traps) then invested into stealth and disable device every level with my skill points.

I only had two less skill points, my combat prowess was comparable to an Unchained Rogue, I was just as stealthy and lock picky as a Rogue (well with essence investment I was better), and out of combat I'd say that having access to veils was handy in different ways than an Unchained Rogue's talents.

If someone wanted to play a Rogue out of Guru I don't think they'd have any sort of problem whatsoever in terms of sneaky lockpickiness.

Also we spent a lot of time in the jungle, so investing into racial stealth and Stalker's tabi made me a more terrifying ambush predator than Shere Khan.

Review Coming Soon.