Balancing Casters vs Fighters


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master_marshmallow wrote:

It's not about the skills, it's about the potential to have them.

It's that the potential to have them is just one club in the fighter's golfbag of narrative tools. It's in many ways better than just having a couple more skill ranks per level.

Except that club isn't actually a very good one, and I sincerely cannot think of any clubs the fighter has which are any better.

Quote:
To retort the notion that 'putting in effort to make your character' is badwrongfun...

Yeah I agree with the rest of your post. I probably wouldn't be interested in PF in the first place if I wasn't a fan of combining the various components together to create a whole. It feels inventive.


How did "it takes a lot of effort to make a Fighter as good as a baseline X class" become "Reviewman hates putting effort into character creation"? Man you are making this way to personal.


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Sure.

I'm personally fine with the combat performance of the Fighter as a whole. Maybe a few tweaks and adjustments, or streamlining the feat system, but overall I think changing combat stats just contributes to the general arms race.

In the "why shouldn't fighters have magical powers" thread 6 months ago I talked about focusing on out of combat abilities. Give Fighters a better toolset for solving, or contributing to the party. And no, I don't just want skill unlocks. Give Fighters more tools to assist the party in solving problems and you preserve asymmetrical play, but give Fighters something uniquely "Fighter" to contribute to play.

People don't talk about the Cleric/Wizard disparity issue. Not because there is or isn't one, but because each class has a bevy of tools for solving issues that the party might have to deal with. A player of either class doesn't care about if the other class is technically more powerful, because their class is well defined and equipped to contribute to the party in both the types of problems and methods that they use.

Give Fighters a useful toolset for solving problems and this debate largely disappears.


Grandlounge wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Imho, Armed Bravery is better later on, as a free upgrade to Improved Bravery. For earlier builds, this opens up options. There's a few abilities that still pose a threat as non mind affecting Will saves, but I feel those more mandate one of your uses of BB to upgrade your Will saves in that individual fight, rather than wasting one of your AWT slots permanently.

In such a fight, I would think gaining +3 or 4 to Will saves (depending on whether you got the Sash of the War Champion) ought to be worth a move action.

It's hard for me to recommend reactionary save benefits that are not free or mediate actions. The fighter would have to have the skills to know the spells and spell like abilities of the enemy to use it before they do, while also beating them in initiative.

master_marshmallow wrote:


I also would recommend NOT taking two AWT options through feats until 15th, as you'll want an "open slot" to be able to pick whatever one you want on the daily. Apologies if your math already assumes this given your acknowledgement of the Manual of War.

Your right here I was thinking of taking AWT and substituting it for AWT with a different option but I don't think the wording on the manual lets you do that. The option is a little weaker at level 10 then I thought.

master_marshmallow wrote:


There's also an Advanced Armor Training that grants full ranks in a single skill, with a different list. There's some gems in there, too, perfect to have temporarily.
This is an okay option but Acrobatics, Climb, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (engineering), Profession (soldier), Ride, or Swim are not strong options. If you need them for your build you will already have Intimidate or ride, Escape artist is ok but even with max ranks CMD will be better on the vast majority of fighters without strength damage. For the situation you are grapples with strength damage or you're a dex fighter that did not invest in escape artist it's good....

We did assert earlier in the thread that fighters who invest into it are first rate when it comes to initiative, so not much concern there. I would concede that knowledge checks in a vacuum are not necessarily the forte of the class, still, Improved Bravery gives you more play room with the build. I suppose the need of a knowledge check is something I often delegate to the party wizard or bard, a party role I coin as "walking Pokedex".

When looking at most of those spells, it seems like the cleric mostly has to waste resources to function like the fighter offensively. Conversely the fighter falls short on healing and condition removal. Both classes however have an inversely related propensity for both it seems.

Of importance, the newer feats that more or less replicate spells when combined with Schrodinger's fighter's nonsense act in many ways like the clerics combat buffs, and unfortunately it takes longer for the fighter's antimagic defenses to really shine comparably. Shatterspell and Sunder Blessing function like dispel magic plus sword. In the days of old the Dispelling weapon enchant would grant you three daily dispels, which would otherwise be more than comparable to the number of third levels you could theoretically expect from a full caster.

So in those regards, in our rushed theorycraft at least, the fighter progresses more like a 6th level caster in regards to narrative power. This is interesting.

Also, never speak of the abomination that is mango salsa.


Grandlounge wrote:

This is an okay option but Acrobatics, Climb, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (engineering), Profession (soldier), Ride, or Swim are not strong options. If you need them for your build you will already have Intimidate or ride,

So when Marshmallow gets salty about people not understanding the build but disparaging it, this is a pretty common way.

1. it becomes a class skill if its not already (not relevant to the aforementioned but included for completeness)

2. Any skill points already invested are refunded and you can respend them elsewhere.

3. The social skills involved in AWT/AAT also belong to the most common weapon types. The claim "its only for Heavy blades, light blades, hammers, polearms" is off base, you can always choose intimidate/bluff, include Bows and you can max perception. Combining all those weapon groups covers basically every common weapon choice in the game. The butchers axe wielding whatever will have to be a sad panda.

Grand Lodge

master_marshmallow wrote:
We did assert earlier in the thread that fighters who invest into it are first rate when it comes to initiative, so not much concern there.

This is true, but when concerned with versatility not specifically Trained Initiative is one more requirement along with abundant tactics and BB to make either armed bravery or improved bravery work. Improved bravery is only available on some builds if your a dwarf 13 cha is really hard and that's what you need to be if you want Shatterspell. So more often than not these will be mutually exclusive not a boon for adaptability though both options are great.

master_marshmallow wrote:


I would concede that knowledge checks in a vacuum are not necessarily the forte of the class, still, Improved Bravery gives you more play room with the build. I suppose the need of a knowledge check is something I often delegate to the party wizard or bard, a party role I coin as "walking Pokedex".

I like walking pokedex.

master_marshmallow wrote:


When looking at most of those spells, it seems like the cleric mostly has to waste resources to function like the fighter offensively. Conversely the fighter falls short on healing and condition removal. Both classes however have an inversely related propensity for both it seems.

There are almost no combat buffs in the spell list. Both class are hindered by DR alignment but the cleric can solve that at level 2 or 3 for the whole team, silence can help stealth or stop casters. Neither of which emulate a fighter. Neither does making a weapon of force at level 3, gaining dr for hours/ level, breathing under water, or creating walls of wind.

If we go back to quality and quantity shatterspell 10th level the cleric has more dispels and great dispels than the fighter using all it's BB to shatter spells (once per BB use until level 15).

Divine favored and divine power and good domain are all that are needed for a powerful melee cleric. For melee it's the difference of a single attack if moving into melee. If the Iron casters has to BB and use the feat the cleric is ahead by a move. If the cleric can quicken there is basically no loss of action economy. Additionally, and melee clerics with the rage domain can just get spell sunder though this happens even later than the fight level 12.

master_marshmallow wrote:


Of importance, the newer feats that more or less replicate spells when combined with Schrodinger's fighter's nonsense act in many ways like the clerics combat buffs, and unfortunately it takes longer for the fighter's antimagic defenses to really shine comparably. Shatterspell and Sunder Blessing function like dispel magic plus sword. In the days of old the Dispelling weapon enchant would grant you three daily dispels, which would otherwise be more than comparable to the number of third levels you could theoretically expect from a full caster.

New feats are a huge help. Dirty fighty was huge. Sunder Blessing (Combat) is the better of the two option as you can use it more, but you need to be the CMD +5 to suppress for 1 round, and an additional +10 if you want to dispel and if you fail to sunder a spell, you cannot attempt to sunder that effect again for 1 minute. There is no option for multiple effects like great dispel has. A fighter with this feat could, from 8 to 11, be a more effective dispeler against divine caster at 12 it will fall behind again to greater dispel.

If we think of the versatile fighter so far, the fighter had 2 feats more than the cleric but now we need disruptive, and likely improved sunder. We also have the 13 cha requirement, awt feat, and awt in the build, and BB. The build is starting to fill up.

Side note: Dispel would come up in another popular fight thread prepared vs spontaneous. Dispelling is something spontaneous casters can do better because retrying is easier.

master_marshmallow wrote:


So in those regards, in our rushed theorycraft at least, the fighter progresses more like a 6th level caster in regards to narrative power. This is interesting.

Not what I said but I see how it can be read that way. It's getting in line with the complexity of a 6th level caster that is to say nothing of the narrative power. I'm avoiding dipping into narrative power argument because it is intangible where versatility can be materially described with lists of examples thus compared in a less biased why.

master_marshmallow wrote:


Also, never speak of the abomination that is mango salsa.

HAHAHA ok!


Milo v3 wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

It's not about the skills, it's about the potential to have them.

It's that the potential to have them is just one club in the fighter's golfbag of narrative tools. It's in many ways better than just having a couple more skill ranks per level.

Except that club isn't actually a very good one, and I sincerely cannot think of any clubs the fighter has which are any better.

I can.

Let's not forget that not every wizard spell is something they prepare everyday, hell most of them might not make it into every wizard's spellbook. But it is the wealth of variables they've available which perpetuates this topic so when we come up with something parallel in the fighter's court we must remember not to fall into the trap of just bashing on fighters for the sake of it. To have an ability that does you no harm by simply having it cannot be a bad thing, even if that ability is limited in its usefulness. It's about having the option, and not being forced to keep it. That is what matters, isn't it? That's what makes wizards better than sorcerers right?

Is it just me, or has this been way too cordial and productive of a thread lately? QUICK SOMEONE MAKE A PERSONAL ATTACK OR SOMETHING!!!

Irontruth wrote:

I did look it up. That's how I know your characterization of it is incorrect.

Godwin's Law is not reducto ad absurdum, they are not interchangeable.

Godwin's Law states that the longer a conversation goes, the closer the probability is 1 that someone is compared to Hitler. It is not a stand in for reducto ad absurdum, but rather an analysis of probability of a specific behavior.

"its purpose has always been rhetorical and pedagogical: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler or to Nazis to think a bit harder about the Holocaust. "

He goes one to write about how the meme is an attempt to get people to think about the Holocaust and not just use it as a rhetorical football to be tossed around and score points. Of course, I suppose Mike Godwin could be wrong about why he made it up in the first place. Do you have a better authority than the person who wrote it?

Whew, that was close, almost forgot this was a fighter thread.

So, as for this part:

Irontruth wrote:
Give Fighters a useful toolset for solving problems and this debate largely disappears.

There are a lot of non-combat like combat feats coming out lately, especially in releases like Ultimate Intrigue and Wilderness that do exactly this for the purpose of doing exactly what you are asking for. Feats that improve bravery in various ways, or add to the fighter's ability to interact with things beyond just hitting them are being added to the game. Given the various ways to gain these abilities temporarily, the fighter essentially is getting utility spells without having to cast anything.

Reviewman wrote:
How did "it takes a lot of effort to make a Fighter as good as a baseline X class" become "Reviewman hates putting effort into character creation"? Man you are making this way to personal.

Apologies if you took it personal, but when you say "I have x problem" and I say "I have X solution!!!!" you really can't keep responding with "but I don't wanna do the work for that, I just wanna complain."

Again, I did the work for you.

@Bhodi, I think someone else responded to your post better than I did upthread, but still I would say that system mastery really should not be one of the arguments used to bash a class. It's not like we consider it system mastery for a druid to take Natural Spell, or for a large number of barbarians to go the Beast Totem+Superstitious route. We have to be fair to the fighter. Given the fact that the fighter has a much larger and ever expanding list of options available to him at literally every level, where most other classes are limited to a short list within the class entry, it should be more or less expected that some more reading may be required to get the most mileage out of it.

We have to be fair, all I can do is inform y'all, but I shall take it upon myself to do so because I fear you guys may be missing out on a truly great gaming experience simply because the pieces of the fighter are spread out so much that by the time you get to reading it, you may have forgotten what already exists.

But the ability to choose and mix those options is a feature, not a bug. Some of those options are much more obvious than others, and many classes have their cookie cutter backbones to their builds. Oath of Vengeance Paladins, Invulnerable Rager Beast Totem Barbarians, Teleportation Conjurers, Dire Lion pouncing druids, Reach Clerics.

Rejoice that the fighter finally has one of these for itself.


Grandlounge wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
We did assert earlier in the thread that fighters who invest into it are first rate when it comes to initiative, so not much concern there.

This is true, but when concerned with versatility not specifically Trained Initiative is one more requirement along with abundant tactics and BB to make either armed bravery or improved bravery work. Improved bravery is only available on some builds if your a dwarf 13 cha is really hard and that's what you need to be if you want Shatterspell. So more often than not these will be mutually exclusive not a boon for adaptability though both options are great.

master_marshmallow wrote:


I would concede that knowledge checks in a vacuum are not necessarily the forte of the class, still, Improved Bravery gives you more play room with the build. I suppose the need of a knowledge check is something I often delegate to the party wizard or bard, a party role I coin as "walking Pokedex".

I like walking pokedex.

master_marshmallow wrote:


When looking at most of those spells, it seems like the cleric mostly has to waste resources to function like the fighter offensively. Conversely the fighter falls short on healing and condition removal. Both classes however have an inversely related propensity for both it seems.

There are almost no combat buffs in the spell list. Both class are hindered by DR alignment but the cleric can solve that at level 2 or 3 for the whole team, silence can help stealth or stop casters. Neither of which emulate a fighter. Neither does making a weapon of force at level 3, gaining dr for hours/ level, breathing under water, or creating walls of wind.

If we go back to quality and quantity shatterspell 10th level the cleric has more dispels and great dispels than the fighter using all it's BB to shatter spells (once per BB use until level 15).

Divine favored and divine power and good domain are all that are needed for a powerful melee cleric. For melee it's the difference of a...

It seems I've once again fallen into the trap of assuming you know more than me and that certain things are base knowledge for you.

Penetrating Strike is something I often don't see spoken about, but it really seems important to me. Not only does it bypass the aforementioned alignment, but it's stamina trick is a straight up party buff that applies it to all your weapons and all the weapons of your allies. That 12th level fighter prerequisite sucks though, since clerics do is so much sooner.

As for defensive buffs, fighters are the undisputed kings of AC and DR, thanks to Advanced Armor Training (PFS players notwithstanding). Compare taking Armor Specialization to casting barkskin, except someone could still cast it on you and it will stack.

Armored Juggernaut gives you DR like a barbarian, then arbitrarily doubles when the fighter would normally get his DR. Even better-er with adamantine.


Yeah I don't wanna put in the effort because to put it simply, I would rather put in the effort for a class that makes better use of it. My Hunter build was a lot of effort and it paid off beautifully. Same for my Bard's. Same for my Ranger. Effort for those classes made them excel instead of meeting some tic marks.

My Conscript (Spheres of Might class) is what I will spend the effort on next because I like doing cool stuff. By the way my offer still stands if you want a Sphere's of Might PDF to read.


master_marshmallow wrote:
I can.

Apparently not. Since the only utility in that appears to be the Item Mastery feats and skills.


Grandlounge wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
Grandlounge wrote:

This is an okay option but Acrobatics, Climb, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (engineering), Profession (soldier), Ride, or Swim are not strong options. If you need them for your build you will already have Intimidate or ride,

So when Marshmallow gets salty about people not understanding the build but disparaging it, this is a pretty common way.

1. it becomes a class skill if its not already (not relevant to the aforementioned but included for completeness)

2. Any skill points already invested are refunded and you can respend them elsewhere.

3. The social skills involved in AWT/AAT also belong to the most common weapon types. The claim "its only for Heavy blades, light blades, hammers, polearms" is off base, you can always choose intimidate/bluff, include Bows and you can max perception. Combining all those weapon groups covers basically every common weapon choice in the game. The butchers axe wielding whatever will have to be a sad panda.

Okay is not disparaging a class feature it's saying it's alright a use of barroom brawler to be good at on the the above skills is exactly that it's alright. If you use it as a retraining ability to push your intimidate skills elsewhere that's fine to but your going to been another baroom BB use to move them back.

Already talked about ATW being helpful for skills. It has a much better list but it's not going to make you amazing at the skill merely competent. Having a backup face can be great and a fine role to fill. But you have to remember builds don't happen in a vacuum when you use BB, the manual of war or a feat slot to get better at a skill your not using that for something else. AWT as marshmallow and I have been discussing are a limited resource which he only recommends taking twice at level 10 and one is used for abundant tactics this curtails total uses for things like skills.

If Marshmallow gets salty he can tell me and I will happily end the discourse until...

It's actually better to do something like:

take Martial Dominance (Ultimate Intrigue)
buy Manual of War

trade out skills as needed by swapping Intimidate out for other skills by retraining Martial Dominance into whatever versatile training might be useful that day. Or some other useful feat if you're fighting something that you can't intimidate. The beauty here is that you have the choice.

I think we might be getting to the point where we should start making some builds for specific purposes, I think it's good research for my guide. Additionally, this thread has taught me not only that the fighter has more class specific items seemingly than any other, but that I need to make sure I point them out vividly so you guys know about them.

Is everyone okay with that? Can I borrow some aspects of said builds, if not the builds themselves for the guide? Of course I'll credit you guys, but it seems way more useful to do something productive rather than watch me sass around Irontruth making personal shots at me after demonstrating he hasn't read the material I keep citing.

That said, I have plenty of funny left if Irontruth wants to. I'm down for whatever guys.


Milo v3 wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
I can.
Apparently not. Since the only utility in that appears to be the Item Mastery feats and skills.

Good call, I shall filter through the other combat feats that add utility options and segregate them into their own section.


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master_marshmallow wrote:
That said, I have plenty of funny left if Irontruth wants to. I'm down for whatever guys.

Someone asked us to move on, I said "sure." Since then you've decided to come at me twice. Seems like you're going to just keep going regardless.

Also, your suggestion that just taking feats that mimic spells doesn't solve the issue I have with the class. You keep suggesting it, and I explaining why it doesn't fit my criteria. Maybe suggest it one more time and this time! I'll agree with you. Seems unlikely though.

You and I disagree on game design. It's okay. I'm allowed to disagree with you (and James Jacobs, and anyone else I damn well please). So, maybe instead of taking my not liking your ideas as a personal insult, just say "no accounting for taste" and move on. You don't need to convince me to like it, because that isn't going to happen.

Me: I wish the Fighter did certain things.
You: It can do this, and this!
Me: That's not what I'm looking for.
You: Okay, have a nice day!
Me: Thanks for trying!

See, much more pleasant.


Irontruth wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
That said, I have plenty of funny left if Irontruth wants to. I'm down for whatever guys.

Someone asked us to move on, I said "sure." Since then you've decided to come at me twice. Seems like you're going to just keep going regardless.

Also, your suggestion that just taking feats that mimic spells doesn't solve the issue I have with the class. You keep suggesting it, and I explaining why it doesn't fit my criteria. Maybe suggest it one more time and this time! I'll agree with you. Seems unlikely though.

You and I disagree on game design. It's okay. I'm allowed to disagree with you (and James Jacobs, and anyone else I damn well please). So, maybe instead of taking my not liking your ideas as a personal insult, just say "no accounting for taste" and move on. You don't need to convince me to like it, because that isn't going to happen.

Me: I wish the Fighter did certain things.
You: It can do this, and this!
Me: That's not what I'm looking for.
You: Okay, have a nice day!
Me: Thanks for trying!

See, much more pleasant.

What kind of things are you looking for?

I've had an easier time deciding where to take my date for dinner.

Like, for real, the fighter gets utility options through feats that they don't have to commit to, and can change them out as desired.

Certainly, I would like for you to have a nice day, but it'd be better if that nice day came with you playing a fighter that you enjoyed.

Help me help you.


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Part of the problem might be that even with all the Fighter boosts it doesn't fix the chassis problem of the Fighter? I could be wrong though.


Reviewman wrote:
Part of the problem might be that even with all the Fighter boosts it doesn't fix the chassis problem of the Fighter? I could be wrong though.

You're not. Despite the meandering one can do to get around skills, most players (myself included) agree that 4+ skills is really important.

Then there's the issue with everything being broken up between books so you never get a good full look at the fighter if you're reading the books proper and not an online resource.

Lastly, Combat Stamina essentially grants the fighter two new class features and is the equivalent of an Unchained upgrade, but is often ignored or rejected by most of the players with whom I've conversed on the topic. PFS not using it creates a stigma that it's not "real Pathfinder" and it creates a dissonance.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Like, for real, the fighter gets utility options through feats that they don't have to commit to, and can change them out as desired.

The most utility they can get from feats is things like casting vanish or short-range teleport if you have the right items and high enough skill ranks.... So..... nearly any utility that actually isn't just "here you can use a low-level spell a small number of times per day" or "Max skill ranks".

Quote:
most players (myself included) agree that 4+ skills is really important.

That's to get them on the playing field rather than a dead weight, since otherwise they simply don't have enough skill points to cover the concepts the class is meant to be flavoured as. Skills still are not enough.


Milo v3 wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Like, for real, the fighter gets utility options through feats that they don't have to commit to, and can change them out as desired.
The most utility they can get from feats is things like casting vanish or short-range teleport if you have the right items and high enough skill ranks.... So..... nearly any utility that actually isn't just "here you can use a low-level spell a small number of times per day" or "Max skill ranks".

Okay, what kind of utility do you want?

Let's start there.

Also, the AWT for Item Mastery skips needing a specific kind of item, and even if it didn't, the items that make up the big six basically cover all the prerequisites anyway. You can take Teleportation Mastery with a handy haversack.


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master_marshmallow wrote:

Okay, what kind of utility do you want?

Let's start there.

What is the fighter meant to do in a murder mystery? What are they meant to do at a peace summit? What is the fighter meant to do when they need to track down an artifact? What is the fighter meant to do when the parties goal is on the other side of the planet? What is the fighter meant to do when the party's goal is on a different plane of existence? What is the fighter meant to do in a highly political campaign? How would a fighter prepare a city for war against a horde of enemies? How is a fighter meant to deal with environments like volcanos and weird gravity? How is a fighter meant to deal with strange eldritch ruins? How is a fighter meant to uncover the plot to assassinate the king?


Let's look at this from another angle:

Our 5th level (human) Fighter has to expend the following resources to gain the kind of (mediocre) narrative power that is being talked about right now, which is less than the narrative power of your average spellcaster. Skills are great, but they don't have the incredible flexibility that is grabbing one of a hundred spells to do things that skills cannot do from your class spell list.


  • 7,500 GP out of 10,500 GP (71.4% of the 5th level Fighter's Wealth by Level) for a Manual of War, so that they can have a variable combat feat to move around as they see fit, once per day.
  • 1 out of 7 total feats (14% of the 5th level human Fighter's total feats) to have a feat you're going to swap out daily so that you can pick up the Advanced Weapon Training (Combat) feat to gain early access to Versatile Training.
  • 1 out of 7 total feats to take Quick Study, or Barroom Brawler, or another Advanced Weapon Training (Combat) feat to get Warrior Spirit (if you wish), so that you can learn a combat feat (possibly the Advanced Weapon Training feat) from someone who already has it.

Physical Resources: Pathfinder Core Rulebook ($49.99/$9.99 for the PDF), Ultimate Equipment ($49.99/ $9.99 for the PDF), Weapon Master's Handbook ($10.49 for the PDF), Advanced Class Guide ($44.99/ $9.99 for the PDF), Ultimate Intrigue ($44.99/ $9.99 for the PDF); $200.45 for physical copies (except for the Weapon Master's Handbook), $50.45 for PDF copies.

So now you can reassign your Base Attack Bonus to sub in for your skill ranks in one of four skills (Bluff, Intimidate, and the other two determined by your weapon group choice), all at the cost of at least one feat, and possibly 71% of your wealth by level if you really want the Manual of War. That's an exceptionally heavy investment for a pretty lackluster payoff. Sure, you can do it, but it's arguably not worth it. Plus, you have to spend over $50 to get all the resources to use all of this... if you even know what resources you need to get in order to substitute 5 ranks in 4 skills at 5th level.

And while I was working on that post, we hit the EUREKA! moment! Hurray!


Brb, need to get off mobile.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Brb, need to get off mobile.

Dirty. :P


Milo v3 wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Okay, what kind of utility do you want?

Let's start there.
What is the fighter meant to do in a murder mystery? What are they meant to do at a peace summit? What is the fighter meant to do when they need to track down an artifact? What is the fighter meant to do when the parties goal is on the other side of the planet? What is the fighter meant to do when the party's goal is on a different plane of existence? What is the fighter meant to do in a highly political campaign? How would a fighter prepare a city for war against a horde of enemies? How is a fighter meant to deal with environments like volcanos and weird gravity? How is a fighter meant to deal with strange eldritch ruins? How is a fighter meant to uncover the plot to assassinate the king?

Uh, use perception and sense motive from versatile training to investigate? Use diplomacy or perception from versatile training to watch for assassins sent to disrupt the peace summit or contribute to the peacemaking. When the party's goal is on the other side of the planet the fighter can travel there using mundane means because GM's aren't going to put that kind of ticking clock on a party without teleport or if they are they're going to make damn sure theres a method to get there (potentially using any number of magic items that can cast teleport).

I mean i get it that you don't think skills are good enough, but im pretty sure pathfinder modules or adventure paths that require things like teleporting to the other side of the planet or travelling to another plane generally provide a method to do so, or don't have a ticking clock.

You're basically asking what happens if your gm is a jerk and is going to punish the party for not having a 9 level caster. If that happens, well, find a new gm cause that guy is a jerk.


Milo v3 wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Okay, what kind of utility do you want?

Let's start there.
What is the fighter meant to do in a murder mystery? What are they meant to do at a peace summit?
This is solved with skills, they get skills now.
Quote:
What is the fighter meant to do when they need to track down an artifact? What is the fighter meant to do when the parties goal is on the other side of the planet? What is the fighter meant to do when the party's goal is on a different plane of existence?

The same things you can expect from a barbarian, bard, druid, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue, alchemist, cavalier, gunslinger, inquisitor, antipaladin, ninja, samurai, bloodrager, brawler, hunter, investigator, skald, slayer, and swashbuckler to have to do to solve those problems.

Do I need to list all the 3PP classes that can't do it either?

Oh wait, UMD and scrolls exist, nvm.

Quote:
What is the fighter meant to do in a highly political campaign? How would a fighter prepare a city for war against a horde of enemies?
Luckily, skills cover most of this too, and to lead an army in PFRPG you need the Profession (Soldier) skill, something you can grab with Adaptive Training from Advanced Armor Training. Plus there's all the buffs to things like Bravery that can apply to all your allies :).
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How is a fighter meant to deal with environments like volcanos and weird gravity? How is a fighter meant to deal with strange eldritch ruins? How is a fighter meant to uncover the plot to assassinate the king?

The same things you can expect from a barbarian, bard, druid, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue, alchemist, cavalier, gunslinger, inquisitor, antipaladin, ninja, samurai, bloodrager, brawler, hunter, investigator, skald, slayer, and swashbuckler to have to do to solve those problems.

Is Milo the new Shallowsoul?

Bodhizen wrote:

Let's look at this from another angle:

Our 5th level (human) Fighter has to expend the following resources to gain the kind of (mediocre) narrative power that is being talked about right now, which is less than the narrative power of your average spellcaster. Skills are great, but they don't have the incredible flexibility that is grabbing one of a hundred spells to do things that skills cannot do from your class spell list.


  • 7,500 GP out of 10,500 GP (71.4% of the 5th level Fighter's Wealth by Level) for a Manual of War, so that they can have a variable combat feat to move around as they see fit, once per day.
  • 1 out of 7 total feats (14% of the 5th level human Fighter's total feats) to have a feat you're going to swap out daily so that you can pick up the Advanced Weapon Training (Combat) feat to gain early access to Versatile Training.
  • 1 out of 7 total feats to take Quick Study, or Barroom Brawler, or another Advanced Weapon Training (Combat) feat to get Warrior Spirit (if you wish), so that you can learn a combat feat (possibly the Advanced Weapon Training feat) from someone who already has it.

Physical Resources: Pathfinder Core Rulebook ($49.99/$9.99 for the PDF), Ultimate Equipment ($49.99/ $9.99 for the PDF), Weapon Master's Handbook ($10.49 for the PDF), Advanced Class Guide ($44.99/ $9.99 for the PDF), Ultimate Intrigue ($44.99/ $9.99 for the PDF); $200.45 for physical copies (except for the Weapon Master's Handbook), $50.45 for PDF copies.

So now you can reassign your Base Attack Bonus to sub in for your skill ranks in one of four skills (Bluff, Intimidate, and the other two determined by your weapon group choice), all at the cost of at least one feat, and possibly 71% of your wealth by level if you really want the Manual of War. That's an exceptionally heavy investment for a pretty lackluster payoff. Sure, you can do it, but it's arguably not worth it. Plus, you have to spend over $50 to get all the resources to use all of this... if you even know what...

Many loaded questions here, given you're asking about 5th level fighters, but human fighters can't take Quick Study til 10th, but whatever. The meat of your post is in the math, which I appreciate being reiterated as I have cited many times being the lead cause of the actual problem with the class.

Fighters require money, both in and out of game. The more I read into it, the more I realize the fighter is meant to be the Tony Stark of the classes, relying on equipment to make himself capable of hanging with everyone else. Getting more access to crafting like Master Armorer is a good start, being able to cut down on crafting time would also help.

As to the physical book problem, help me convince Erik Mona to convince Jason Bulmahn to write that Advanced Multiclassing Guide that I keep talking about and compile all the resources from supplements into one book that someone could get as a pdf for 9.99. Tell him that we want it and we'll trade him money for it, he'll listen.


Bodhizen wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Brb, need to get off mobile.
Dirty. :P

To be fair, when I first started playing PF and converting from 3.5, you're paladin guide was my inspiration for not only joining the forums but for getting into the culture as a whole, as it was very early in my career with the game, and the problem with knowing the books you need I try very hard to solve with my guide by not only citing my non-core sources, but also in providing links to the official Paizo page for each product in case anyone reading my guide would like to purchase it.

I'm trying, but I'm not perfect. I'll gladly take on critique and advice though, the thread on the fighter guide has been very helpful in giving me proper feedback in formatting and content and I need more of it, all the time, constantly.


I mean, can we get a similar writeup of how much it costs to have the hard copies of all the books with all the different spells and magic items and archetypes an optimized caster gets?


Ryan Freire wrote:
I mean, can we get a similar writeup of how much it costs to have the hard copies of all the books with all the different spells and magic items and archetypes an optimized caster gets?

I think my Hunter used ACG, Core, and Ultimate Combat.

A lot of his hilarity came from Resist Energy being a first level spell, Barkskin, and getting his wolf to bite people like 3 times a turn while slapping with his scimitar like 3 times a turn.


Isn't totaling the cost of books you've got to have basically just privileging PFS? I mean, I don't know anybody who owns "Sargava, the Lost colony" in PDF or dead tree format, but I still see Piranha Strike a lot (and that's fine, since it's not hard to find the text on reputable websites.)


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Isn't totaling the cost of books you've got to have basically just privileging PFS? I mean, I don't know anybody who owns "Sargava, the Lost colony" in PDF or dead tree format, but I still see Piranha Strike a lot (and that's fine, since it's not hard to find the text on reputable websites.)

Doesn't matter if Erik Mona delivers my book.

Everyone wins!!!!

Alas friends, and anyone who would be offended by me calling them my friend, I have to work at 6am, and Detroit roads have been treacherous the last few days.

Hopefully I've made you more optimistic about the fighter class, made you laugh a little, and made you think a little, that's all I can really hope for.


Outflank and paired opportunists are both APG as well


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Isn't totaling the cost of books you've got to have basically just privileging PFS? I mean, I don't know anybody who owns "Sargava, the Lost colony" in PDF or dead tree format, but I still see Piranha Strike a lot (and that's fine, since it's not hard to find the text on reputable websites.)

I think its a ridiculous argument and have said so in the past but "cash cost to make a warrior" is a constant refrain, and since PFS and many gm's require a copy of the material and no SRD for any option your character has I'm just curious as to how all these god casters compare, cash money wise.

I mean wands of Infernal healing is a constant refrain, so there's Inner sea world guide tacked on already.

A +4 initiative familiar means animal archive or ultimate magic

Hunter requires 4 hardcovers just to cover their class and teamwork feat bases, before even looking at niche spells that show up on SRD's and guides.


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Ryan Freire wrote:
I mean, can we get a similar writeup of how much it costs to have the hard copies of all the books with all the different spells and magic items and archetypes an optimized caster gets?

Spell are a very small expenditure for a highly optimized caster. Mind you this is old and there would be a few additional spells added now, but the cost to add all the really relevant spells since then is not going to be terribly much more. A whopping 21,305 gold gets you a very impressive selection of spells. Adding in the costs of both the Blessed Books (crafted at half price of course) makes that 33,805 gp.

Spells Known (Level Up): Starting Spell Book (Up to 6th level) (Also in both Blessed Books)

1st: Anticipate Peril, Snow Ball, Ear-Piercing Scream, Blood Money, Blood Rage, Alarm, Heighten Awareness,
Infernal Healing, Ant Haul, Shield
2nd: Rope Trick, Create Pit, Summoner Monster II, Mirror Image
3rd: Haste, Summon Monster III, Tongues, Paragon Surge
4th: Summon Monster IV, Black Tentacles, Animate Dead, Eyes of the Void
5th: Teleport, Summon Monster V, Magic Jar, Permanency
6th: Planar Binding, Summon Monster VI, True Seeing, Greater Dispel Magic
7th: Greater Teleport, Summon Monster VII, Simulacrum, Limited Wish
8th: Greater Planar Binding, Summoner Monster VIII, Maze, Clone
9th: Greater Create Demiplane, Wish, Time Stop, Gate, Aroden's Spellbane, Mage's Disjunction

Spellbooks:
Book of Harms (900 GP): (Also in both Blessed Books)

3rd—fireball, lightning bolt

2nd—acid arrow, darkness, ghoul touch, gust of wind

1st—burning hands, color spray, corrosive touch, hydraulic push, hypnotism, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement,
shocking grasp

Tome of the Transmuter (2,635) (Also in both Blessed Books)

4th—beast shape II, calcific touch, confusion, dimension door, stone shape

3rd—arcane sight, dispel magic, explosive runes, lightning bolt, greater magic weapon, slow

2nd—alter self, flaming sphere, knock, pyrotechnics, resist energy, see invisibility, whispering wind

1st—animate rope, charm person, color spray, erase, floating disk, mage armor, magic missile, protection from chaos,
unseen servant

0—standard plus drench, spark

Blessed Book(s): All Above, in addition to:

1st (100 GP): Air Bubble, Identify, Grease, Obscuring Mist, Mount, Summoner Monster I, Comprehend Langauges,
Detect Secret Doors, See Alignment, True Strike, Disguise Self, Magic Aura, Silent Image,
Vanish, Crafter's Fortune, Expeditious Retreat, Gravity bow, Liberating Command, Feather Fall, Reduce Person

2nd (500 GP): Arcane Lock, Protection from Arrows, Glitterdust, Stone Call, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object,
Continual Flame, Contingent Action, Shatter, Blur, Invisibility, Command Undead, False Life, Spectral Hand,
Limp Lash, Make Wole, Masterwork Transformation, Sculpt Simulacrum, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom,
Bear's Endurance, Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Aram Zey's Focus

3rd (1035 GP): Magic Circle Against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Nondetection, Protection from Energy, Aqueous Orb,
Mad Monkeys, Phantom Steed, Stinking Cloud, Seek Thoughts, Heroism, Wind Wall, Displacement, Deathwine,
Marionette Possession, Vampiric Touch, Beast Shape I, Blink, Fly, Monstrous Physique I, Shrink Item,
Undead Anatomy

4th (1040 GP): Dimensional Anchor, Stoneskin, Solid Fog, Scrying, Locate Creature, Charm Monster, Terrible Remorse,
Contingent Scroll, Greater Invisibility, Enervation, Symbol of Slowing, Emergency Force Sphere, Ball Lightning

5th (2125 GP): Mage's Private Sanctum, Siphon Magic, Cloudkill, Lesser Planar Binding, Contact Other Plane,
Telepathic Bond, Geyser, Symbol of Sleep, Symbol of Pain, Waves of Fatigue, Angelic Aspect, Fabricate, Fickle Winds,
Overland Flight, Planar Adaption, Absorb Toxicity, Echolocation

6th (1620 GP): Greater Heroism, Symbol of Persuasion, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Symbol of Fear, Flesh to Stone
Battlemind Link, Unwilling Shield, Sonic Form

7th (3610 GP): Spell Turning, Plane Shift, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Scrying, Vision, Symbol of Stunning,
Waves of Ecstasy, Hungry Darkness, Project Image, Symbol of Weakness, Waves of Exhaustion, Ethereal Jaunt,
Ice Body, Circle of Clarity

8th (2880 GP): Mind Blank, Protection from Spells, Trap the Soul, Discern Location, Moment of Prescience,
Symbol of Insanity, Symbol of Death, Greater Angelic Aspect, Polymorph Any Object

9th (4860 GP): Symbol of Vulnerability, Summoner Monster IX, Teleportation Circle, Foresight, Winds of Vengeance,
Astral Projection, Energy Drain, Soul Bind, Mass Suffocation, Etherealness, Shapechange, Dominate Monster


Not gold friend, Cash, cold hard cash. People get bent out of shape about paying for the materials to make a fighter good. I'm curious how much it costs to buy the books with all these spells, feats, familiars, and archetypes for god casters. In US or Canadian dollars.

(NOTE: I do not think this is a sound argument, but its one that keeps getting made so i'm interested in the comparison.)


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All you need to be overpowered with a caster is the CRB and if you want to get technical the Bestiary I guess.

All the really broken stuff is Core. Permanent minions are available in Core with Animate Dead/Animate Object+Permanency. The minion calling spells are also Core with the Planar Binding and Gate being the gold standard. The best buffs and debuffs are again Core. Stuff like Haste, Contingency, Time Stop, Mage's Disjunction. Spells that replace or obsolete skills are also Core. Easy methods to avoid dying when killed starting with Magic Jar (Potentially replaceable by the Possession line), Clone and Astral Projection. Simulacrum is of course (you guessed it) Core. So... somewhere between free to $50 for a brand new hardcover and you will have 90% of the best stuff a caster can have.

Anything after Core is baby steps up in power. sure Blood Money is probably worth dropping the cash on Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition even though it's going to rack up another $42-60. And Aroden's Spellbane which will add on another $12-20, but is well worth it. After that Ultimate Magic for the Demiplane line would be good, but that's really pure luxury at $10-50. The biggest expense for casters is going to be Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition, but Blood Money is really strong enough to justify being worth it. But, just CRB + Bestiary + Inner Sea Magic + Ultimate Magic is comfortably under $50 if you use the PDFs.


I think the question is less "how many books to play the absolute most powerful wizard" and more "how many books to play the fun kind of wizard that an actual human would want to play as part of a group".

Like the last 9-level caster I played would be at least Occult Adventures & Origins + Psychic Anthology + Heroes of the Darklands + Legacy of the First World + all the core stuff.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think the question is less "how many books to play the absolute most powerful wizard" and more "how many books to play the fun kind of wizard that an actual human would want to play as part of a group".

Less than Core. Core -1? -2?


Anzyr wrote:

All you need to be overpowered with a caster is the CRB and if you want to get technical the Bestiary I guess.

All the really broken stuff is Core. Permanent minions are available in Core with Animate Dead/Animate Object+Permanency. The minion calling spells are also Core. The Planar Binding and Gate are the gold standard. Time Stop, Mage's Disjunction. Easy methods to avoid dying when killed starting with Magic Jar (Potentially replaceable by the Possession line), Clone and Astral Projection. Simulacrum is of course core. So... somewhere between free to $50 for a brand new hardcover and you will have 90% of the best stuff a caster can have.

Anything after Core is baby steps up in power. sure Blood Money is probably worth dropping the cash on Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition even though it's going to rack up another $42-60. And Aroden's Spellbane which will add on another $12-20, but is well worth it. After that Ultimate Magic for the Demiplane line would be good, but that's really pure luxury at $10-50. The biggest expense for casters is going to be Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition, but Blood Money is really strong enough to justify being worth it. But, just CRB + Bestiary + Inner Sea Magic + Ultimate Magic is comfortably under $50 if you use the PDFs.

No one ever builds "core caster" though

Its always Orc/draconic crossblooded sorcerer dip into admixture wizard.

Tons of +4 initiative familiars (all of which are from non core sources)

Spells referenced are always things like spellbane, infernal healing, demiplane creation, snowball.

I mean maybe people don't really want to dig up the actual dollar amount. Its a specious argument to begin with so the results aren't likely to impress me much, but if the case can be made that an optimized fighter build is a pain because you have to buy non core books and its expensive, i suspect the same can be said about god (casters).


master_marshmallow wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
That said, I have plenty of funny left if Irontruth wants to. I'm down for whatever guys.

Someone asked us to move on, I said "sure." Since then you've decided to come at me twice. Seems like you're going to just keep going regardless.

Also, your suggestion that just taking feats that mimic spells doesn't solve the issue I have with the class. You keep suggesting it, and I explaining why it doesn't fit my criteria. Maybe suggest it one more time and this time! I'll agree with you. Seems unlikely though.

You and I disagree on game design. It's okay. I'm allowed to disagree with you (and James Jacobs, and anyone else I damn well please). So, maybe instead of taking my not liking your ideas as a personal insult, just say "no accounting for taste" and move on. You don't need to convince me to like it, because that isn't going to happen.

Me: I wish the Fighter did certain things.
You: It can do this, and this!
Me: That's not what I'm looking for.
You: Okay, have a nice day!
Me: Thanks for trying!

See, much more pleasant.

What kind of things are you looking for?

I've had an easier time deciding where to take my date for dinner.

Like, for real, the fighter gets utility options through feats that they don't have to commit to, and can change them out as desired.

Certainly, I would like for you to have a nice day, but it'd be better if that nice day came with you playing a fighter that you enjoyed.

Help me help you.

Here's how you can help, stop telling me the problem is already solved by your guide. I've read it, it's a good guide. Doesn't solve my problems.

If you want to see what I think are solutions, go read some of my ideas from the "should fighters have super powers thread" or whatever it was called from last fall. If you don't care enough to bother, then just call it good and stop arguing with me.

Really, that last one would be my favorite. Or just stop arguing with anyone. Stop telling them that the problem doesn't exist and they just need to read your guide to fix everything. It's a great guide. It does not meet the needs of everyone.

To me, any good solution to permanently solve the issue will have nothing to do with skills, feats, or spells. Someone else will think feats are just fine. Some people will only be satisfied when the Fighter class feels like this at level 20.

More than a one size fits all solution, I think talking about it and letting people explore why they think the disparity exists is useful in allowing them to figure out what solution works for them. Just because I'm posting in here doesn't mean I need you to shove a solution down my throat though.


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The way to do one punch man in DnD/PF btw is have a 20th level character only fight cr 1-5


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That's pretty much how OPM does OPM in OPM, too, so.

Checks out.


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Trinam wrote:

That's pretty much how OPM does OPM in OPM, too, so.

Checks out.

I like to imagine it as everyone else is playing E6 but no one told Saitama and the GM just went with it.


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I imagine it as Saitama's player slipping the GM a 20 under the table when he announced it was E6.

Dirty minmaxer.


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Saitama is what happens when a player doesn't realize what power level caps are.


He probably just did what I did. YAY for infinite power loops!


I'm pretty sure I've angry ranted about how you're wrong before. Let me find it.

Ah, not wrong. Overstating your case maybe? You need at least medium levels and a counterintuitive build. AWT is one of the best feats. You can't take it right away (or all of them). Item Mastery is one of the better AWT. You can't take that at all. Manual of War isn't any better on the level front, it's only less than 25% of WBL at level 8 (and it's probably competing with the big six). You're not using Barroom Brawler and Abundant Tactics to get an AWT feat more than once until level 9 (Warrior Spirit->Training starts at 2 uses, but that's not much better). The skill list is okay but extremely narrow for some options. Want Survival? Axes only. Handle Animal? Spears. If you don't have those you're SOL. Getting access to them also means giving up taking an AWT when you get a new weapon training and delaying your "flexibility" even more levels. And, again, no Knowledge but Engineering. Skill flexibility for anything useful is probably also only once a day since Barroom Brawler and Warrior Spirit last a minute. Since Diplomacy also takes at least a minute (ditto Intimidate for the same purpose) that's not going to work. Also Gather Information is measured in hours, that's just absolutely impossible without the Manual. Bluff has a similar problem if anyone keeps talking to you. Oh, and if you want both Diplomacy and Sense Motive (what I consider "face" minimum) you'll need either Polearms or to have already taken AWT for something with one of them and flex into the other. So... level 13?

So yes, I'd love to see the build. Because it looks like for half their career this Fighter doesn't do much of anything. "As lame as a regular Fighter for half their career, the first half that most people get stuck in" is a terrible pitch.


I think you needed the quote with that one ^^


The idea isnt taking the skills from the weapon group you have. Its taking a skill you already have max ranks in, which, by the awt, lets you redistribute the ranks ANYWHERE. So since you can switch out the awts, you juggle your own skill ranks across your character and to nil with being limited by weapon group skills.

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