Balancing Casters vs Fighters


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think the question is less "how many books to play the absolute most powerful wizard" and more "how many books to play the fun kind of wizard that an actual human would want to play as part of a group".

You don't need to be a Cancerous Min-Maxing Munchkin Who Is Trying To Break The Game to notice what spells do.


master_marshmallow wrote:
This is solved with skills, they get skills now.

Skill ranks are nowhere near enough.

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What is the fighter meant to do when they need to track down an artifact? What is the fighter meant to do when the parties goal is on the other side of the planet? What is the fighter meant to do when the party's goal is on a different plane of existence?
The same things you can expect from a barbarian, bard, druid, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue, alchemist, cavalier, gunslinger, inquisitor, antipaladin, ninja, samurai, bloodrager, brawler, hunter, investigator, skald, slayer, and swashbuckler to have to do to solve those problems.

IMO, Barbarian, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue, cavalier, gunslinger, antipaladin, ninja, samurai, bloodrager, brawler, slayer, swashbuckler all have the same issue. It's caster/martial disparity. It is an issue to more than just fighter, fighter is just the most blatant example for most (I'd say brawler is worst at utility now since at least fighters can get Item Mastery feats easier).

As for the other classes, they can at least do other utilities. And even then, bard can perform a masterpiece to call in an outsider to take him to the planes. Alchemists/Investigator do have planar travel/long distance travel abilities. Druids have travel abilities and teleporting and the can ask Fey or a location to locate things.

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WLuckily, skills cover most of this too, and to lead an army in PFRPG you need the Profession (Soldier) skill, something you can grab with Adaptive Training from Advanced Armor Training.

I disagree that skills cover that sufficiently.

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Plus there's all the buffs to things like Bravery that can apply to all your allies :).

I wasn't talking about localized combat buffs. I was talking about actually helping a city, not "Dudes within 30 ft get a bonus against illusions and intimidation".

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The same things you can expect from a barbarian, bard, druid, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue, alchemist, cavalier, gunslinger, inquisitor, antipaladin, ninja, samurai, bloodrager, brawler, hunter, investigator, skald, slayer, and swashbuckler to have to do to solve those problems.

Druids, Alchemists, Inquisitors, Hunters, and Investigators all have ways to deal with those sort of things.

Ryan Freire wrote:
Uh, use perception and sense motive from versatile training to investigate? Use diplomacy or perception from versatile training to watch for assassins sent to disrupt the peace summit or contribute to the peacemaking.

Yay... skills again...

You guys really aren't the best at remembering the question I was answering was "What sort of things do you guys want other than just skills?".

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When the party's goal is on the other side of the planet the fighter can travel there using mundane means because GM's aren't going to put that kind of ticking clock on a party without teleport or if they are they're going to make damn sure theres a method to get there (potentially using any number of magic items that can cast teleport).

I mean i get it that you don't think skills are good enough, but im pretty sure pathfinder modules or adventure paths that require things like teleporting to the other side of the planet or travelling to another plane generally provide a method to do so, or don't have a ticking clock.
You're basically asking what happens if your gm is a jerk and is going to punish the party for not having a 9 level caster. If that happens, well, find a new gm cause that guy is a jerk.

Alternatively, the martial classes are much more restrictive when it comes to what sort of stories can be told. Because the casters are always gaining new ways to interact with the narrative as they progress through the campaign... while martials have the narrative tools they get at level 1, and .... basically never gain any more.

When it comes to "What sort of stories can I tell", the fighter is only just barely than the warrior class, and that is just simply not good enough for many people.


A Hunter in Lava: Resist Energy (fire) is a first level spell.....

A Hunter that has to look for something: Both themselves and their pet are ridiculously good at perception and survival. Spells and animal aspect help.

A Hunter that has to fight in the sky: I cast Air Walk on my Wolf

A Hunter that has to hide: Animal Aspect helps.

A Hunter has to follow a flying enemy that's fast: Aerial Tracks spell

A Hunter has to deal with animals: :)

A Hunter's group has to go underwater/into poison gas/into space: Life Bubble

Yeah I don't think Hunter belongs on that list at all. They can't do everything out of combat, but they are very very good at what they should do.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Okay, what kind of utility do you want?

Let's start there.
What is the fighter meant to do in a murder mystery? What are they meant to do at a peace summit?
This is solved with skills, they get skills now.
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What is the fighter meant to do when they need to track down an artifact? What is the fighter meant to do when the parties goal is on the other side of the planet? What is the fighter meant to do when the party's goal is on a different plane of existence?

The same things you can expect from a barbarian, bard, druid, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue, alchemist, cavalier, gunslinger, inquisitor, antipaladin, ninja, samurai, bloodrager, brawler, hunter, investigator, skald, slayer, and swashbuckler to have to do to solve those problems.

Do I need to list all the 3PP classes that can't do it either?

Oh wait, UMD and scrolls exist, nvm.

That's pretty much a perfect riposte to any argument about why the Fighter is fine because they can have lots of skill points and swap skills in and out. Your solution amounts to, "Use spells, because skills aren't reliable, easy, repeatable, or good enough."


Snakers wrote:
The idea isnt taking the skills from the weapon group you have. Its taking a skill you already have max ranks in, which, by the awt, lets you redistribute the ranks ANYWHERE. So since you can switch out the awts, you juggle your own skill ranks across your character and to nil with being limited by weapon group skills.
Advanced Weapon Training wrote:
The fighter can use his base attack bonus in place of his ranks in two skills of his choice that are associated with the fighter weapon group he has chosen with this option (see below).

You can't substitute your BAB into just any skill. You have to have the weapon group that applies to that skill. For example, light blades allows you to substitute your BAB in place of your skill ranks in Diplomacy or Sleight of Hand. Sure, you can juggle which feat you have prepared for the day and take another Advanced Weapon Training (Combat) feat, but you still only get the 2 skills per day. If you don't need Diplomacy or Sleight of Hand today, you're out of luck. So... Not quite as flexible as you present.


Bodhizen wrote:
Snakers wrote:
The idea isnt taking the skills from the weapon group you have. Its taking a skill you already have max ranks in, which, by the awt, lets you redistribute the ranks ANYWHERE. So since you can switch out the awts, you juggle your own skill ranks across your character and to nil with being limited by weapon group skills.
Advanced Weapon Training wrote:
The fighter can use his base attack bonus in place of his ranks in two skills of his choice that are associated with the fighter weapon group he has chosen with this option (see below).
You can't substitute your BAB into just any skill. You have to have the weapon group that applies to that skill. For example, light blades allows you to substitute your BAB in place of your skill ranks in Diplomacy or Sleight of Hand. Sure, you can juggle which feat you have prepared for the day and take another Advanced Weapon Training (Combat) feat, but you still only get the 2 skills per day. If you don't need Diplomacy or Sleight of Hand today, you're out of luck. So... Not quite as flexible as you present.
Oh, that's actually... well, cheesy as @#$% but it looks like it works. The part you're missing is:
Versatile Training wrote:
Once the skills have been selected, they cannot be changed and the fighter can immediately retrain all of his skill ranks in the selected skills at no additional cost in money or time.

So you're not using it to gain skills but instead get a free instant retraining. Now I just want to complain more about the skill selection though since you need max ranks of whatever you want to swap out. There's a few gimmes in there (Perception, Sense Motive, a social skill) but the Fighter chassis is still 2+Int and you don't get the swap until mid levels. So a Greatsword Fighter gets to choose between Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, and Ride to keep maxed? That's... well, not a great selection. Not for the Fighter. Archers at least get Perception, I could see maxing Perception and Intimidate. But being forced into maxing Diplomacy and Intimidate/Bluff (especially without Sense Motive) sounds like this Fighter really sucks to play at lower levels. Skill selection is locked, good feats are specifically barred (and you have to take other feats to make up for this), your weapon training is limited, and until @#$%ing level 9 you're not really doing much with this. This is useful but not "hobble yourself for half your career" useful.


Once you've retrained your maxed Diplomacy into another skill (the first time you use this trick), how do you ever do it again? I see nothing in the AWT about the retrained skill points going back to Diplomacy to let you rinse and repeat.


Cheburn wrote:
Once you've retrained your maxed Diplomacy into another skill (the first time you use this trick), how do you ever do it again? I see nothing in the AWT about the retrained skill points going back to Diplomacy to let you rinse and repeat.

You use that Manual of War to retrain a combat feat for the day, retraining a new selection of Advanced Weapon Training.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Oh, that's actually... well, cheesy as @#$% but it looks like it works. The part you're missing is:

Versatile Training wrote:
Once the skills have been selected, they cannot be changed and the fighter can immediately retrain all of his skill ranks in the selected skills at no additional cost in money or time.
So you're not using it to gain skills but instead get a free instant retraining. Now I just want to complain more about the skill selection though since you need max ranks of whatever you want to swap out. There's a few gimmes in there (Perception, Sense Motive, a social skill) but the Fighter chassis is still 2+Int and you don't get the swap until mid levels. So a Greatsword Fighter gets to choose between Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, and Ride to keep maxed? That's... well, not a great selection. Not for the Fighter. Archers at least get Perception, I could see maxing Perception and Intimidate. But being forced into maxing Diplomacy and Intimidate/Bluff (especially without Sense Motive) sounds like this Fighter really sucks to play at lower levels. Skill selection is locked, good feats are specifically barred (and you have to take other feats to make up for this), your weapon training is limited, and until @#$%ing level 9 you're not really doing much with this. This is useful but not "hobble yourself for half your career" useful.

Yeah, didn't miss that part. I pretty much said in fewer words what you said here. :)


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Athaleon wrote:


You don't need to be a Cancerous Min-Maxing Munchkin Who Is Trying To Break The Game to notice what spells do...

...But it sure doesn't hurt!! :D


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This is basically coming down to, "Fighters suck less if you use a different version of Paragon Surge juggling to exploit unintended consequences," when Paragon Surge juggling is an absolutely broken trick for Sorcerers that's pretty much always banned, yet still doesn't manage to make Fighters actually good at doing things.

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This thread is taking me a bit longer to read through than I hoped. It will remain locked until I can review it and determine if things need to be removed or the thread permanently locked. Hopefully that will be sometime tomorrow.

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