Looking for opinions on which Occultist class is the most powerful and are these classes even good? By powerful generally I mean most versatile (ie Wizard is considered most powerful character in the game to most). Looking forward to hearing all your opinions! Thanks all
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Psychic. Its practically wizard (ok sorcerer) with cooler class features.
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Occult class, right? A psychic is a sorcerer who casts off Int, with a slightly different spell list (not really worse despite what some people claim) and with powers that buff magic rather than going at right angles to it like most sorcerer bloodline powers. It's more solidly focused than versatile though.
The occultist class is amazingly versatile, especially with an archetype like silksworn, haunt collector or psychodermist. Especially silksworn; you may be a 6-level caster but you know a lot of spells and get a lot of implement powers. That archetype's an arcane rather than psychic caster which may not match your interest in an occult class - I'm not sure what you're after exactly.
I combat solo’d several scenarios with a medium. Using only a dagger and sling. Just to see if I could. Ever one-shot a creature with a sling? It’s pretty glorious.
Occult class, right? A psychic is a sorcerer who casts off Int, with a slightly different spell list (not really worse despite what some people claim) and with powers that buff magic rather than going at right angles to it like most sorcerer bloodline powers. It's more solidly focused than versatile though.
The occultist class is amazingly versatile, especially with an archetype like silksworn, haunt collector or psychodermist. Especially silksworn; you may be a 6-level caster but you know a lot of spells and get a lot of implement powers. That archetype's an arcane rather than psychic caster which may not match your interest in an occult class - I'm not sure what you're after exactly.
I'm just doing some research on these occult classes seeing which one I should spend my time researching and which ones aren't really worth playing.
The only one I don't like is the mesmerist and that is just personal preference cause of the fluff and has little to do with the mechanics.
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The only one I don't like is the mesmerist and that is just personal preference cause of the fluff and has little to do with the mechanics.
You love the mesmerist... look deep into my eyes... you looovvvveee thhheee messsmmmerrriiissstt...
I just don't get all the weird delayed subconscious commands. Some of them make sense but others I'm just like WTF?
Well the psychic is a full caster sooo... yeah.
The Occultist and the Kineticts are both really good if you ask me
The Mesmerist and spiritualist are fun and functional although a little under tuned perhaps, particularly the Mesmerist.
The medium is a bit contentious, I personally hate it.
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I just don't get all the weird delayed subconscious commands. Some of them make sense but others I'm just like WTF?
A lot are from old books/movies about hypnotist bad guys. I’ve seen a movie where they guy disappears in a cloud of smoke and turns into a bird to fly away. If you’re not familiar with the source material the components of a wizard spell are at least as dumb.
Occultist can, with some options, be a full-BAB 6/9 caster.
Mesmerist, with some options, can have flexible immediate-action defenses and get some nasty free effects, like save or blinded one round, triggering it on anybody’s damage.
Kineticist is a decent ranged combatant with two feats, and splashes in magical utility powers.
Psychic is Sorcerer, but trading some spell options out and getting decent skills in return. Rebirth discipline allows grabbing off-list spells, and is pretty hard to beat.
Spiritualist is a pet class where the pet focuses on utility. At first level, it can walk through walls at-will. Your spell list is a little more Cleric-y than the other occult classes. Archetypes for this allow you to play occult Magus, which is much less repetitive than the original.
Medium is... basically a full-BAB 4/9 caster, but you can turn into a 6/9 caster during downtime.
all of them are good. Under your definition of versitile = wizard
psychic
occultist
spiritualist
medium
mesmerist
kineticist
is how I'd list them
Occultist can, with some options, be a full-BAB 6/9 caster.
Mesmerist, with some options, can have flexible immediate-action defenses and get some nasty free effects, like save or blinded one round, triggering it on anybody’s damage.
Kineticist is a decent ranged combatant with two feats, and splashes in magical utility powers.
Psychic is Sorcerer, but trading some spell options out and getting decent skills in return. Rebirth discipline allows grabbing off-list spells, and is pretty hard to beat.
Spiritualist is a pet class where the pet focuses on utility. At first level, it can walk through walls at-will. Your spell list is a little more Cleric-y than the other occult classes. Archetypes for this allow you to play occult Magus, which is much less repetitive than the original.
Medium is... basically a full-BAB 4/9 caster, but you can turn into a 6/9 caster during downtime.
How do you get full BAB on a Medium? (Disclaimer: never played one)
How do you get full BAB on a Medium? (Disclaimer: never played one)Occultist can, with some options, be a full-BAB 6/9 caster.
Mesmerist, with some options, can have flexible immediate-action defenses and get some nasty free effects, like save or blinded one round, triggering it on anybody’s damage.
Kineticist is a decent ranged combatant with two feats, and splashes in magical utility powers.
Psychic is Sorcerer, but trading some spell options out and getting decent skills in return. Rebirth discipline allows grabbing off-list spells, and is pretty hard to beat.
Spiritualist is a pet class where the pet focuses on utility. At first level, it can walk through walls at-will. Your spell list is a little more Cleric-y than the other occult classes. Archetypes for this allow you to play occult Magus, which is much less repetitive than the original.
Medium is... basically a full-BAB 4/9 caster, but you can turn into a 6/9 caster during downtime.
Champion spirit, which is the best spirit for typical adventuring 4/5 days.
How do you get full BAB on a Medium? (Disclaimer: never played one)Champion spirit, which is the best spirit for typical adventuring 4/5 days.
You don't get full bab, you just lots of bonuses to attack and damage.
How do you get full BAB on a Medium? (Disclaimer: never played one)Occultist can, with some options, be a full-BAB 6/9 caster.
Mesmerist, with some options, can have flexible immediate-action defenses and get some nasty free effects, like save or blinded one round, triggering it on anybody’s damage.
Kineticist is a decent ranged combatant with two feats, and splashes in magical utility powers.
Psychic is Sorcerer, but trading some spell options out and getting decent skills in return. Rebirth discipline allows grabbing off-list spells, and is pretty hard to beat.
Spiritualist is a pet class where the pet focuses on utility. At first level, it can walk through walls at-will. Your spell list is a little more Cleric-y than the other occult classes. Archetypes for this allow you to play occult Magus, which is much less repetitive than the original.
Medium is... basically a full-BAB 4/9 caster, but you can turn into a 6/9 caster during downtime.
While it's not actually full BAB, it gets you pretty close in practical terms. You have the same to-hit and number of attacks, with some tradeoffs one way or the other.
Does it help with qualifying for feats?
Does it help with qualifying for feats?
Only at the end when you get your chosen-daily feats, levels 17+.
The Psychic is one of those classes that just gets lost in the crowd. There are a lot of full caster options in Pathfinder today, with the Wizard, Sorcerer, Witch, and Arcanist all giving it direct competition. And the thing is, we're talking about the whose who of great classes here.
Taken in isolation, the Psychic is an amazing class. It has everything you'd want from a full caster and then some. The problem is, it doesn't really have anything to make it stand out from the pre-existing options, and is actually a bit outclassed by them in many ways. When you add on the distinct lack of archetypes for Psychics, and it's easy to see why they're forgotten. In other words, the Psychic is a bit of a "bubble boy". It's just edged out of the top tier of premier Pathfinder classes... but on the other hand it's right on the cusp of being one of the premier Pathfinder classes. It's really just a matter of perspective there.
The other contender is the Occultist, which is kinda the exact opposite of the psychic in that regard. It really is its own thing and doesn't directly compare against other existing options, carving out a completely new niche. However, it's still a 6-level casting 3/4 BAB class so it's never going to compete with the top tier classes for their crown. However, its unique niche means it really gets to stand on its own.
The Psychic is one of those classes that just gets lost in the crowd. There are a lot of full caster options in Pathfinder today, with the Wizard, Sorcerer, Witch, and Arcanist all giving it direct competition. And the thing is, we're talking about the whose who of great classes here.
Taken in isolation, the Psychic is an amazing class. It has everything you'd want from a full caster and then some. The problem is, it doesn't really have anything to make it stand out from the pre-existing options, and is actually a bit outclassed by them in many ways. When you add on the distinct lack of archetypes for Psychics, and it's easy to see why they're forgotten. In other words, the Psychic is a bit of a "bubble boy". It's just edged out of the top tier of premier Pathfinder classes... but on the other hand it's right on the cusp of being one of the premier Pathfinder classes. It's really just a matter of perspective there.
The other contender is the Occultist, which is kinda the exact opposite of the psychic in that regard. It really is its own thing and doesn't directly compare against other existing options, carving out a completely new niche. However, it's still a 6-level casting 3/4 BAB class so it's never going to compete with the top tier classes for their crown. However, its unique niche means it really gets to stand on its own.
Agreed. The Psychic only avoids being a (still decent!) also-ran if you focus it on unique spells (both Psychic-only and witch and cleric options) unavailable to arcane full casters and pick phrenic amplifications and discipline abilities to grab niches not available to them. Undead affecting mind control (without spell level penalty), automatic confusion even on a save, self lay on hands, unlimited alter self, rotating spell borrowing from other lists, adjustable spells known, and plenty more options are out there if you know what to look for.
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How do you get full BAB on a Medium? (Disclaimer: never played one)
The Champion Spirit Power at level 6 gives you an extra attack at full BAB (which explicitly stacks with haste & co.) allowing you to keep parity with full-BAB in terms of "how many attacks you're making.
Which is to say a fighter makes 2 attacks at level 6 as does the Champion Medium. A champion Medium makes 3 attacks at level 8, a fighter makes 3 attacks at level 10. Champion makes 4 attacks at level 15, Fighter makes 4 attacks at level 16. Your bonuses to hit are going to be different, but the Champion does all right in the accuracy department with your
Moreover, due to the Champion's spirit bonus, your level 6 attacks are going to be at +6/+6, your level 8 attacks are going to be at +9/+9/+4, and your level 15 attacks are going to be at +16/+16/+11/+6.
So it's pretty close to full-BAB.
The Trappings of the Warrior Occultist, devoting 3 of their first 6 levels of implements to Transmutation, Abjuration, and the Panoply is probably a more fun pseudo-full BAB Occult Caster (this has lots of fun archetype possibilities, the haunt collector is great, I want to play a Geomancer/Panoply Savant that does this), because your spells and other class features are better; but the medium's ability to wear different hats during downtime is fun.
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A Haunt Collector Occultist with Trappings of the Warrior can add limited rounds Champion spirit attack/damage boosts onto his full BAB at higher levels if he can get enough mental focus to invest in a third implement. Good for elves.
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I'm really enjoying my psychic. The trick for me was using Expanded Arcana and human FCB to increase my spells known.
After that, it's a sorcerer with better class skills, more skills because you cast off Intelligence, and soooo many spells per day.
However, the spell list really is more limited; mind-immune monsters and no-single-target things like swarms are hard targets for you. Solid battlefield control mostly comes online as level 4 spells, that's a long wait.
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The design of the occult classes is one of the best in the pathfinder!
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I have enjoyed the mesmerist. I like action economy builds and the mesmerist offers me a lot to play with. When over the first turn you move the rogue into flank, give the barbarian a few mirror images, drop all attacks by 8, all saves by 4, will by an additional 4 and save dcs by 4 you really give the team a leg up.
Is not 9th level caster good but you can drop a save or die with equal or greater efficacy. They also have a strong skill list and 6+int skills per level.
Well only one i play often is the spiritualist, which is mostly to the dismay of my groups cause i have yet to make a single one that doesnt fall behind the rest of the party in any fight.
With this said, the class can quite impressively break encounters by scouting ahead at low lvls :P.
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I still really want to make a spiritualist who uses a kindness phantom who specializes in grappling, so I can command my ghost-friend to go hug someone until they feel better.
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Among occult classes in terms of power and versatility: Medium. Medium class can change from day to day its main features, which dictates its role. Medium can even change skills with the Trickster or spells with Archmage or Hierophant. If archetypes and feats are also a thing when speaking about Power and Versatility, I should mention: Channel Spirit feat, to channel a spirit during the day and still benefits of spirit bonuses, adds more versatility during the day to the typical Medium. Then Spirit Dancer, archetype. This is the apotheosys of versatility. Combine the two for dramatic results.
Here some builds of versatiles Medium characters:
reanimated medium
halfelf (round ears, blended view, shadowhunter)
stats CHA>CON>all others
_Feats
1 channel spirit (hierophant)
3 channel spirit (archmage)
5 toughness
7 intensified spell
9 empower spell
11 quicken spell
13 legendary influence (spontaneous metafocus)
15 improved legendary influence (spell perfection)
17 ascendant spell
19 summon guardian spirit
_Spells
paragon surge (additional traits[magical lineage])
The goal here is to be a master of spells, choosing the needed spells each day from wizard class with the Archmage spirits, or gains access to the cleric spells with the Hierophant. This medium can be played both offensively as blaster, or supportively, with utility, crowd control, summons and healing (super healing with the hierophant channel and cleric borrowed spells).
With Legendary Influence feat each day you may choose a different spell for Spontaneous Metafocus and Spell Perfection, opening lot of potential for blasting spells like telekinesis, sirocco, battering blast. You never get bored.
It's important to be an halfelf to have access to Paragon Surge spell, adding lot more flexibility, especially if taking the feat Additional Traits for Magical Lineage trait.
Reanimated medium archetype is there because the build easily starts the day with Influence increased, in this way removing the penalties of influence instead of having them.
medium spirit dancer
human lich template??
traits (fate's favored, defensive strategist)
_Feats
1 Divine Fighting Technique (way of the shooting star)
3 two-weapon fighting
5 double slice
7 channel spirit (archmage)
9 improved two-weapon fighting
11 possessed hand
13 hand's autonomy
15 greater two-weapon fighting
17 noble scion (war)
19 channel spirit (hierophant)
With Spirit Dancer archetype you can change from round to round what class feature have, from sneak attack to spells, to extra attack and damage to channel like a cleric. The weak part is that Spirit Dancer cannot use those much time per day, just rounds per level plus charisma. The trick here is to use the Channel Spirit feat outside combat, to benefit from extra skills of Trickster, or extra spells from Hierophant. Then when you know you are going to battle, just end the channeling, and after the npc moment go battling with spirit dance alterning from Champion to Archmage or Guardian.
This build is focused on having highest charisma possible, then with divine fighting technique of Desna you can attack with charisma with starknifes. Noble Scion of war is there for charisma to initiative.
medium
grippli
_Feats
weapon finesse
spirit focus (trickster)
spirit ridden
weapon focus
slashing grace
VMC rogue
_Spells
0 detect magic, ghost sound, grave words, stabilize, prestidigitation, open/close
1 long arm, expeditous retreat, detect undead, anticipate peril, ant haul, remove fear
2 heroism, purge spirit, rope trick, spiritual weapon, false life, nondetection
3 scrying, dimension door, greater invisibility, fly
4 summon monster V, teleport, deathless, telepathy, reincarnate
In this case the medium is built mainly around the Trickster spirit, which lets you select two skills each day to have maximum skill ranks. If using Spirit Ridden feat then it's an extra skill to choose each day that comes with maxed skill ranks.
In most of adventures having a lot of skills and a small spellcasting ability is enough.
For combat part it starts weak, but grows strong as soon as you get Surprise Attack (it's a sneak attack up to +6d6).
Variant multiclassing is convenient way to roll extra sneak attack dice and adding trapfinding, when choosing Rogue.
Grippli race is there because the grippli favored class bonus adds a +1/4 to all skills affected by spirit surge, which for the trickster translates to a bonus to Every skill...
Build is dexterity focused. Oh having a lot of initiative with the Trickster bonus you can prepare ambushes or scout areas.
_Class
Medium Fiend Keeper
_Race
gillman
FCB +1/6 spirit bonus
_Feats
1 noble scion (war)
1 divine fighting technique (shooting star)
3 channel spirit (trickster)
5 channel spirit (archmage)
7 channel spirit (hierophant)
9 channel spirit (marshal)
11 channel spirit (champion)
13 channel spirit (guardian)
15 legendary influence (spirit focus)
17 possessed hand
19 hand's autonomy
_Equipment
any medium armor with spirit bonded property
This is similar to spirit dancer, trying to get the most of Charisma ability score. But it's a normal medium, so it has more endurance and spirit surge uses to be a good Marshal. Channel spirit feat is there to have access to any spirit type and change them during the day, which is not possible for a standard Medium .Fiendkeeper archetype is there mostly to have the increased bonus to Spirit Bonus. Legendary Influence feat with Spirit Focus is to have an extra +1 to Spirit Bonus. Spirit bonded armor adds an extra +1 to spirit bonus. Finally the gillmen favored class bonus adds another +1/6 to spirit bonus. Spirit bonus is a very good class feature for the Medium, so the highest the best
That said, I will give my opinion both on my perceived side and actual experience, first with a small bullet list of points I consider when I'm looking for power and another one for versatility (de facto I consider Power and Versatility as two different parameters)
To be powerful:
-able to deal with a challenge of a CR higher X levels from his level. The more challengies it can surpass easily the more powerful it is. An example is the wizard which can use many different spells combined with a lot of skill ranks and deal easily in almost any situation, even fighting versus monsters alone.
Also, the higher the CR in a single field the class can deal with, is equally powerful. An example is the Barbarian or Fighter in a typical campaign which can outmelee easily any monster at equal CR, or an Investigator which can easily surpass any non-fighting urban and social challenge, like solving puzzles, get informations from lore or asking people, anything in which intelligence is involved.
-have a lot of expected powerful abilities that are, in a tacit agreement, recognized as superduper/must have. The more the class have of those abilities, the more powerful can be considered. Also, the sooner (read as "lower the level") the class can have access at those powerful abilities is a sign of power, by breaking the tempo of the campaign or overtaking the gamemaster. Finally, the more uses per X time the class gets, the more powerful the class is.
For the list of powerful abilities, that should deserve a separate thread on the forum, it would be interesting to discuss also about it, but for now I safely can throw a list of them and might be valid in majority of cases: flight, invisibility, teleport, telekinesis, pounce, healing, summoning, any polymorph augment/buff.
Similar abilities are equally valid. Counters to that abilities, like see invisibility or dimensional anchor, are equally valid.
-have power to share&receive. This is a tricky one. There are some class features that lets you add power to other classes. This is a powerful thing, especially in a cooperative playground, it means that the group will not be just the sum of the players/characters, but more of it. Both classes that can share a lot of powerful abilities and that can "receive" are powerful in terms of potentials. One example is the Skald&Bard, which can buff every member of group, easily and give exactly the same power to everyone as it gives to himself. The fighter from other side is a class which have lot of pluses, numerical advantages and lot of very specific/situational feats and features, being above to other classes in those terms, but lacking powerful abilities (see point 2 of the list, above). BUT if the fighter gets teleport from group support or from an item? And if fighter receives flight as well? The fighter will benefit from any of those. This is subtle, but balance of some classes is placed on dispensing powerful abilities (like Shifter class, it was given polymorph abilities, which are recognized as being powerful, so Shifter has the polymorph ability in the table, while a class from the fighter gets weapon training. Guess what? Polymorph abilities are not that rare, so they can will be added to the fighter's group via magical items and spells from the group spellcasters. That weapon training class feature which give untyped bonus and is a prerequisite of many good combat feats and class archetypes? Not really common to find...)
To be versatile:
- able to adapt, both improvising or changing class features (like spells prepared is the most common one) to surpass a challenging situation. There are some class features which let change their selection during the adventure day. Those are great for adventuring in terms of versatility. Alchemists for example can prepare any extract they know in one minute per extract. Brawlers can add extra combat feats to thei repertoire very quickly in combat. Shaman can change their spirits and hexes and spells from day to day, like they change almost all the class, being totally unpredictable and unstoppable.
- ability to have multiple ways when confronting a situation to deal with it. This is a thing alchemists can do it awesomely. They have lot of skills, then they have "spells", then create potions, mutagens and discoveries. And good combat proficiencies. And bombs. And have bonuses when using random alchemical mundane object or poisons. When facing a problem, an alchemist has just to pick what feature to solve it.
Can be versatility be a sign of power? yes, it may be. Having a lot of versatility will contribute having greater power. But is not the only factor, sometimes there's just an efficient, both in time and material resources, combo that can be use in every situation, and game master will have difficult time to deal with it (more because if one of the players is too much above the others, it will be harder to balance encounters).
Disclaimer: I may have mixed causes and effects and put alltogether in the bullet list
Among occult classes in terms of power and versatility: Medium. Medium class can change from day to day its main features, which dictates its role. Medium can even change skills with the Trickster or spells with Archmage or Hierophant. If archetypes and feats are also a thing when speaking about Power and Versatility, I should mention: Channel Spirit feat, to channel a spirit during the day and still benefits of spirit bonuses, adds more versatility during the day to the typical Medium. Then Spirit Dancer, archetype. This is the apotheosys of versatility. Combine the two for dramatic results.
Here some builds of versatiles Medium characters:
** spoiler omitted **...
Round Ears and Blended View do not match in the first build.
For the first build, the storyteller's archetype would fit, or not?
Among occult classes in terms of power and versatility: Medium. Medium class can change from day to day its main features, which dictates its role. Medium can even change skills with the Trickster or spells with Archmage or Hierophant. If archetypes and feats are also a thing when speaking about Power and Versatility, I should mention: Channel Spirit feat, to channel a spirit during the day and still benefits of spirit bonuses, adds more versatility during the day to the typical Medium. Then Spirit Dancer, archetype. This is the apotheosys of versatility. Combine the two for dramatic results.
Here some builds of versatiles Medium characters:
** spoiler omitted **...
Round Ears and Blended View do not match in the first build.
For the first build, the storyteller's archetype would fit, or not?
Good catch, I played an entire campaign with that and never saw "low-light vision" as a prerequisite. For purpose of this thread those traits can be disregarded, as they are not a main thing for that build, aside from Magical Lineage Only if picked through the bonus feat of Paragon Surge, so you can change it every 24 hours.
Storyteller archetype for the first build is still viable. Thing is with Legendary Influence and Improved Legendary Influence, that build would start every day with 4 influence points with Storyteller, which translates into having penalties of archmage spirit (hierophant is still tolerable) and as soon as using any class feature that increases influence, to lose control of the character.
Another good one for the Spellcaster build is Uda Wendo archetype, to have extra spells from domains.
There should no fear in playing the Storyteller or the Uda Wendo in a campaign: if death happens, can still be played as a Reanimated Medium
Among occult classes in terms of power and versatility: Medium. Medium class can change from day to day its main features, which dictates its role. Medium can even change skills with the Trickster or spells with Archmage or Hierophant. If archetypes and feats are also a thing when speaking about Power and Versatility, I should mention: Channel Spirit feat, to channel a spirit during the day and still benefits of spirit bonuses, adds more versatility during the day to the typical Medium. Then Spirit Dancer, archetype. This is the apotheosys of versatility. Combine the two for dramatic results.
Here some builds of versatiles Medium characters:
** spoiler omitted **...
Round Ears and Blended View do not match in the first build.
For the first build, the storyteller's archetype would fit, or not?Good catch, I played an entire campaign with that and never saw "low-light vision" as a prerequisite. For purpose of this thread those traits can be disregarded, as they are not a main thing for that build, aside from Magical Lineage Only if picked through the bonus feat of Paragon Surge, so you can change it every 24 hours.
Storyteller archetype for the first build is still viable. Thing is with Legendary Influence and Improved Legendary Influence, that build would start every day with 4 influence points with Storyteller, which translates into having penalties of archmage spirit (hierophant is still tolerable) and as soon as using any class feature that increases influence, to lose control of the character.
Another good one for the Spellcaster build is Uda Wendo archetype, to have extra spells from domains.There should no fear in playing the Storyteller or the Uda Wendo in a campaign: if death happens, can still be played as a Reanimated Medium
Rivethun Spirit Channeler too, not bad, to replace the spirit dancer