What is the next Adventure Path hardcover?

[BMovieMonster]

What will the next Adventure Path hardcover be?

I'm hoping for Kingmaker, considering some of the books are now being sold for $64 online.

[Knight_Druid]

I would LOVE a Kingmaker hardcover.

[taks]

I think Paizo's position is "there won't be one," but they have to say that. I bought CoCT, and intend to run it some day. Whether or not I'd get another hardcover is a tough call. If for no other reason than cool factor, I just might.

[Ivory Songbird]

I hope the Legacy of Fire AP will be released soon as a hardcover.

[captain yesterday]

I have no opinion besides I will gratefully buy whatever they choose. :-)

[Adam Daigle]

I don't want to rob anyone of any fun of mentioning what they want to see of think might come, but I can officially say that there is not an Adventure Path hardcover on the schedule for the following year.

[captain yesterday]

So, you're saying there's a chance!

[Steve Geddes]

captain yesterday wrote:

So, you're saying there's a chance!

Pretty much confirmed a December 2018 release, by my reading. :o

[Hythlodeus]

I hope it's not Kingmaker as long as Second Darkness has not been updated

[Gorbacz]

Kingmaker confirmed for January 2019! ;-)

[Douglas Muir 406]

The previous hardcovers were announced many months in advance, so this isn't really a surprise.

Kingmaker seems the obvious choice. They're not going to do one where the existing AP still has large numbers of physical copies left unsold, so that probably eliminates Second Darkness and Council of Thieves. Note that right now you can pick up the later modules in these paths, physical print copies, at a whopping discount -- $10 each for CoT and $5 (!) for Second Darkness. Paizo trying to dump these at 50% or 75% off suggests that, while individual players may love these APs -- and I'm sure we'll hear from them forthwith -- overall they're not the kind of crazy popular that would support spending a rare, precious hardcover slot.

So, of the early APs, that leaves Kingmaker and Legacy of Fire. From what we see on the forums, KM seems to be the more popular of the two.

Doug M.

[Douglas Muir 406]

That said, note that the one thing we consistently hear from Paizo staff is that doing these is a crazy lot of work. It's much, much more than just reprinting the old APs in a new binder. There's editing, additional material, new artwork, you name it. And because the hardcover compilations are special one-offs, they don't fit into the regular drumbeat of APs / modules / companions etc.. It's work that has to be done with time stolen from peoples' regular schedules.

One has the distinct impression that Paizo is stretched kinda thin these days, what with the Starfinder launch and several high-level staff departures. Stuff like Pathfinder Tales being left in limbo for a year now tends to reinforce this impression. So, they may simply not have the bandwidth to do this any time soon.

Doug M.

[Feros]

I'll back up what Doug has said with the fact that no regular rulebook since Bestiary 5 has made it into the PRD. Starfinder has stretched them very thin indeed and extra time for such projects was scarce before the departure of quite a few of Paizo's staff. Training new people and getting them into the swing of things takes time and effort as well. So while I for one will voice my support for at least the last two OGL APs making the transition to hardcover (Second Darkness and Legacy of Fire—especially Legacy), I'm not holding my breath.

[Isabelle Lee]

I'd probably do the entire Second Darkness hardcover for them, if they'd let me. But that's not how these things work. ^_^

[captain yesterday]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

The previous hardcovers were announced many months in advance, so this isn't really a surprise.

Kingmaker seems the obvious choice. They're not going to do one where the existing AP still has large numbers of physical copies left unsold, so that probably eliminates Second Darkness and Council of Thieves. Note that right now you can pick up the later modules in these paths, physical print copies, at a whopping discount -- $10 each for CoT and $5 (!) for Second Darkness. Paizo trying to dump these at 50% or 75% off suggests that, while individual players may love these APs -- and I'm sure we'll hear from them forthwith -- overall they're not the kind of crazy popular that would support spending a rare, precious hardcover slot.

So, of the early APs, that leaves Kingmaker and Legacy of Fire. From what we see on the forums, KM seems to be the more popular of the two.

Doug M.

I would just like to note Paizo's fanbase has grown considerably since those days and the hardcover compilations would probably sell better by default, not to mention that newer GMs are more likely to buy a hardcover update rather than something they need to convert to Pathfinder.

[Grumbleguggle]

i want a iron gods hardcover

[captain yesterday]

Grumbleguggle wrote:

i want a iron gods hardcover

Iron Gods is still available, why wait!

Seriously, it's one of the best, get it while you can. :-)

[Meraki]

As someone who does own all of Second Darkness, I'd love a hardcover of it so I don't have to convert it from 3.5 myself.

Though I'd also like Kingmaker since the book from it that I don't have is proving elusive. (Well, not that elusive. Just expensive, since it's out of print.)

[Steve Geddes]

One benefit if they ever reprint kingmaker is that they’d probably also reprint the map folio. I’ve sorely regretted not grabbing a few more of those when I could.

[Albatoonoe]

I'd rather them stick to the 3.5 APs if they are going to do it. Those are the ones that could use a general sprucing up for the PF rules. Also, I'd love to see Second Darkness redux.

[Douglas Muir 406]

I would bet money against Second Darkness. Two big reasons.

First, it wasn't and isn't a great seller. They still have hard copies of EVERY SINGLE ONE of the Second Darkness modules in the warehouse. That's nine long years of sitting on a shelf. Doesn't bode well. They're still trying to clear them out as we speak. You can buy them for $5 each, meaning you can pick up the entire AP for just $30. Grab them while they're hot!

By way of comparison, not one other AP from Paizo's first few years is still completely in print. Serpent's Skull was published two years after SD and is not considered one of the great APs. Still, four of its six modules have been sold out for a while now. To find the next AP that is still completely in print, you have to go forward all the way to Shattered Star. That's eight APs later. So SD hasn't just sold badly. It's sold uniquely badly.

Second, while there are people who like Second Darkness, the consensus opinion -- with which Paizo's creative staff appear to agree -- is that it's the most flawed and problematic of the early APs, and maybe of all the APs. I won't rehash those arguments here, but I will note that senior Paizo staff are on record as saying that if they could do SD over again, they'd do it very differently. That means it would be more work to whip it into shape, on top of the "crazy lot of work" already mentioned above.

They might want to go back and revisit it to set it right. But from a purely economic POV, Kingmaker (which has been sold out for years) is just a far more attractive choice.

Doug M.

[Dracovar]

Second Darkness would be cool - but with a caveat. A lot of that AP did not cast elves in a particularly favorable light. Then there are a lot of other issues that people have brought up over the years, making this AP one of the least popular ones.

So - I'd propose that Paizo buy up the rights to Throne of Night (that isn't really going anywhere, last I heard). Take the great elements of that AP and mesh it with Golarion/Second Darkness - creating essentially an entirely new AP.

Use ToN to replace parts of SD that simply weren't very good/working well.

[captain yesterday]

Second Darkness is also for 3.5 so I imagine that drives down current sales more than anything.

[captain yesterday]

Dracovar wrote:

Second Darkness would be cool - but with a caveat. A lot of that AP did not cast elves in a particularly favorable light. Then there are a lot of other issues that people have brought up over the years, making this AP one of the least popular ones.

So - I'd propose that Paizo buy up the rights to Throne of Night (that isn't really going anywhere, last I heard). Take the great elements of that AP and mesh it with Golarion/Second Darkness - creating essentially an entirely new AP.

Use ToN to replace parts of SD that simply weren't very good/working well.

Paizo isn't going to buy someone else's tainted intellectual property just to try to shoe horn into their own material.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Dracovar wrote:

So - I'd propose that Paizo buy up the rights to Throne of Night (that isn't really going anywhere, last I heard). Take the great elements of that AP and mesh it with Golarion/Second Darkness - creating essentially an entirely new AP.

Fun idea, but Paizo doesn't buy other people's content. Also, even if they did, I somehow doubt Gary McBride would be their first choice to work with.

-- BTW, "jerkass elves" is what everyone remembers about SD, but I'm told it wasn't the only problem. I only skimmed the later volumes, but ISTR people mentioning things like plot holes, encounter balance, and poor or absent tactical advice for running monsters and NPCs.

Doug M.

[Rysky]

captain yesterday wrote:

Dracovar wrote:

Second Darkness would be cool - but with a caveat. A lot of that AP did not cast elves in a particularly favorable light. Then there are a lot of other issues that people have brought up over the years, making this AP one of the least popular ones.

So - I'd propose that Paizo buy up the rights to Throne of Night (that isn't really going anywhere, last I heard). Take the great elements of that AP and mesh it with Golarion/Second Darkness - creating essentially an entirely new AP.

Use ToN to replace parts of SD that simply weren't very good/working well.

Paizo isn't going to buy someone else's tainted intellectual property just to try to shoe horn into their own material.

That would also require someone to actually be able to get into contact with Gary.

[Douglas Muir 406]

captain yesterday wrote:

Second Darkness is also for 3.5 so I imagine that drives down current sales more than anything.

There were four 3.5 APs. Which ones have seen their modules sell out?

Rise of the Runelords: 5 out of 6 modules sold out many years ago, long out of print. (The one you can still buy? Skinsaw Murders. Yeah, I don't know either, it's a great module. Guess they just overprinted, way back when. But hell, you could drop $5 and pick up Skinsaw Murders right now and it would totally be worth it.)

Curse of the Crimson Throne: 3/6 out of print. First three gone, last three still available. If you want a massive dungeon crawl for levels 10-12, Scarwall is still totally worth $5.

Legacy of Fire: 3/6 OOP. Unusually, the first two are still in print. (Usually the earlier modules in a path sell out first.) Huh, $5 each for these two is not a bad deal. That's several months of pretty solid gaming fun for ten bucks.

Second Darkness: 0/6 OOP. Not a single module has sold out. Uniquely bad.

Doug M.

[captain yesterday]

Yes, but LOF didn't start selling out until they dropped it down to five bucks, and same with book 3 of CotCat.

Edit: I'm keeping the typo.

Edit: I'm not saying they shouldn't consider previous sales, just that with the overall popularity of the AP hardcovers that isn't the only metric that should be considered.

[Hythlodeus]

Dracovar wrote:

A lot of that AP did not cast elves in a particularly favorable light.

which is why I want to run it. Seiously, f elves!

[Black Dougal]

I have to say, I have all the adventure paths in print up to iron gods, and thinking of selling them, all except Kingmaker. Despite a weakish ending I really love the first 4 adventures. So yeah, Kingmaker hardcover.

[Black Dougal]

In regards to Second Darkness, yeah, just awful. I remember thinking the first adventure had potential, but I got really turned off after that. I don't even remember anything about the remaining 5 books. Just not that memorable at all. Such a bizarre contrast with what came before and legacy of fire which came next. I love Legacy of Fire.

So either that or Kingmaker, but not Second Darkness. I am just saying that as a independent financial analyst. It would be a poor investment of funds to produce.

[Yakman]

well... the fun thing about kingmaker is that if they were to do it, think about all the systems and mini-games that have been put into adventure paths over the years which could be incorporated (ironfang's militia rules, looking at you).

[captain yesterday]

For clarification, the militia rules are in Lands Of Conflict (about Nirmathis and Multhune).

Ironfang Invasion merely mentions how to incorporate them.

I've been running Ironfang Invasion just fine without them.

[Reverse]

Hythlodeus wrote:

Dracovar wrote:

A lot of that AP did not cast elves in a particularly favorable light.

which is why I want to run it. Seiously, f elves!

Except that one of the main objections is that you are obliged to work with the horrible, horrible elves, no matter how they treat you. A party that hates elves is going to collapse around halfway through the AP (and many parties that didn't hate elves to start with are going to by that time).

[Chemlak]

I would get a hardcover Kingmaker SOOOOOOOOOO fast.

Edit: I already own all of it in hardcopy.

[spacemonkeyDM]

I love the redone curse of the crimson throne and runelords. Really hoping to see more....
Hoppe...

[Radiarch]

A Kingmaker hardcover release in conjunction with the upcoming video game would be sweet.

[Douglas Muir 406]

1) I would bet a moderately large sum of money that we won't see a new hardback announced this calendar year. Paizo has been showing signs of being stretched thin for a while now, and hardcover APs are a huge amount of work.

2) I wouldn't place a bet either way, but I'd be completely unsurprised if we *never* see another hardcover AP.

Doug M.

[Hythlodeus]

Every time I see new posts in thread I open it thinking 'great, they FINALLY announced the Second Darkness HC', only to get dissappointed again :(

[captain yesterday]

I wouldn't bet on them announcing it in this thread.

That's something for social media, a blog post, or for a podcast or something.

[Samy]

Oh, they wouldn't announce it here, of course. But people participating in this thread would probably link the announcement here. At least I would.

[Bill Dunn]

I'm not counting on there being another hardcover version of an AP, but that was my position after the RotRL special and I was pleasantly surprised but he CotCT announcement. So I think I'll keep it my position that there will probably not be one so I can be pleasantly surprised again when (if) it happens.

[DM Alistair]

I hope that the next hardcover, assuming they do make a proper AP hardcover, should either be Second Darkness or Kingmaker. Considering the love Kingmaker is getting (such as a video game set for release this August) I doubt it will be that. I personally hope it's Second Darkness so long as they tweak the story line some to not make so many of the elves just plain bad and tie the extra adventures in the back of each softcover into the actual story proper.

But chances are it will be Kingmaker because everyone loves it so very, very much!

[LandSwordBear]

My favourite Adventure Path hardcover is still the Advanced Class Guide.

[Snacker]

I'm shocked that nobody has mentioned Skull and Shackles yet. I was just coming here to see if that might be in the works, since the best Amazon has the first one at is about $80. I would love to run a pirate adventure, and I hear this is a popular adventure path too, so why isn't this a popular choice for the next hardcover?

I was wanting to start this adventure path until I saw what it was selling at, and after some research, I settled on Curse of the Crimson Throne, since that has a hardcover and it wasn't insanely overpriced due to being out of print.

[Ed Reppert]

The first four APs were published under the open gaming license, because the Pathfinder rules set had not yet been published. Two of those have been updated to Pathfinder rules and published as hardcovers. One might guess from this that priority would be given to the other two, but there are other factors involved, including the popularity of the original AP. Second Darkness seems widely viewed as one of the worst, if not the worst, of all the APs. That leaves Legacy of Fire amongst the original first four (not a bad choice, IMO) and eighteen APs that were originally published under the Pathfinder rules (including the latest, War For The Crown, which just got started).

IAC, the pdfs aren't that expensive, especially compared to $80 for one of six volumes.

[Zaister]

All APs, and in fact all of the Pathfinder RPG is published under the Open Gaming Licence.

[Douglas Muir 406]

1) There won't be another hardcover any time soon. Like, certainly not this calendar year, and very probably not before 2020.

2) There may possibly *never* be another hardcover. Personally, I'll be slightly surprised if there ever is.

A data point that nobody's paying attention to: neither of the first two hardcovers has sold out. Is Paizo really going to invest a lot of resources in a third $60 hardcover when they still have stacks of two earlier ones sitting in the warehouse? Probably not, guys. So if you really want a third hardcover, probably the best thing you can do is convince a friend to buy one of the existing ones. If you use one of the 10% off codes (there's one available right now) you can get one for $54 plus shipping, or as a pdf for $38. If you're a subscriber that drops to $45 +S&H for the hardcover and $31 for the .pdf. Those are actually super reasonable prices -- you can pick up an entire AP that was good to begin with and that's been extensively revised based on years of real-world feedback, for a little more than the cost of two current AP books.

But until at least one of these volumes has sold out, I wouldn't hold your breath for a third.

Doug M.

[Ed Reppert]

Zaister wrote:

All APs, and in fact all of the Pathfinder RPG is published under the Open Gaming Licence.

The first four APs did not use the Pathfinder rules, because those rules did not yet exist.