I still don't quite understand how people can find those elves in general offensive unless the GM fails fairly spectacularly on communicating "the nice ones want your help and appreciate it, there are a handful of political extremists who don't and one of those turns out to be the villain." Particularly when you've got Shalelu and Kwava to make the first impression, and when the ones who try to assassinate them in Kyonin directly identify themselves as a splinter group by shouting “Death to all who would doubt the Winter Council!”
Because, sadly, the character that the AP established (or, more accurately, reinforced) is wrong. They're not supposed to be anywhere near as offensive as they come across in the AP (partially because, I suspect, you only see the offenders in the AP, not the 90% of the race that is supposed to be nicer).
So.. here's how I see the issue...
First, there are no scripted "friendly" encounters in the AP. The first time the PCs meet elves is when they reach Crying Leaf and the Elven hunters watch them fighting Forest Drakes, and might mock them for it. From then on, Kaerishiel makes his disdain for them clear at every opportunity. Most Elves are ashamed that the Drow exist and want to keep the secret hidden. They have not been above killing those who find out the secret previously. The next time the PCs meet Elves is in Kyonin, where Vilastir dismisses and mocks their story as they try to warn the Queen of what's coming. Queen Telandia, for her part, seems to go along (hoping that the PCs realize she's not really doubting them). The assassination attempt is meant as much to embarrass her (and show her that the Winter Council are the ones REALLY in charge - that she should be quiet and do as they tell her) as it is to kill the outsiders who know the secret that there are Drow. They then escape with Quliiindra, maybe, and begin their tour of Golarion. They meet the Snowcasters, who also are unwelcoming and basically hurry them along their way. Once they reach Thorn's End, they meet the Winter Council and get dissed again, to varying degrees by each of these "wise leaders".
So those are all of the scripted encounters with Elves. Pretty much every one of them (except Eviana and Shalelu) looks down on them and gives them a hard time. Softening Kaerishiel's attitude is a result of heroics that save his life.
Their lodgings in Kyonin are essentially nice prisons (especially the Paradise Chamber), and the Queen ends up manipulating them into helping her resolve her internal government problem. This is why I don't like the option of "make all the PCs members of the Shin'Rakorath to avoid this whole issue".
If the GM doesn't play up the cruelty of the Drow, especially in Endless Night, they can easily come off as "nicer" than the surface Elves. "They may be genocidal, but they were nice to us" is how it can come off, "while the surface Elves may be a "benevolent" race but they treat us like crap".
Since many GMs play APs because they don't have time to write their own material, that means many GMs will be playing the AP with only the scripted encounters. So it becomes very easy for the Elves to come across as jerks... which appears to be what has happened.
Part of the solution is for the GM to provide some other encounters to present the Elves in a better light... but the GMs who don't have time won't be doing that.
{. . .}
The Encounters in the AP:{. . .}
If the GM doesn't play up the cruelty of the Drow, especially in Endless Night, they can easily come off as "nicer" than the surface Elves. "They may be genocidal, but they were nice to us" is how it can come off, "while the surface Elves may be a "benevolent" race but they treat us like crap". {. . .}
Of course, Paizo may want to wait on doing any Hardcover Editions of APs until they get Pathfinder 2nd Edition out the door, at which point every Pathfinder 1st Edition AP (as well as every D&D 3.5 AP) has the excuse of needing an edition update . . . .
Speculation:Now I've got this vision of running the AP in a way in which some of the Drow actually get the impression that they have a decent chance to pull this off, and try to entice others into refraining from interfering with their dirty work (if not actually joining them).
I remember seeing a post on the Second Darkness forums about a group doing pretty much that...
With regard to 2nd edition PF... yeah, that may put Kingmaker into a better position to be "next". Just remember that there is no guarantee that there even *be* a "next".
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the prospect of never seeing SD getting the PF1 HC treatment makes me just sad :(
Something occurred to me today: Since we have seen hints that Pathfinder 2nd Edition will be incorporating some of the flavor (Legendary Skill Proficiency, anyone?) if not the mechanics of Mythic Rules, once Pathfinder 2nd Edition comes out, Wrath of the Righteous potentially becomes a candidate for a Hardcover Edition. Great concept, but flawed execution -- with Pathfinder 2nd Edition, maybe a chance to fix the flaws.
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So, how about a Kingmaker Hardcover...revamped for PF 2e!
So, how about a Kingmaker Hardcover...revamped for PF 2e!
Well, they are just coming out with Kingmaker plastic minis. Make of that what you will, but they're certainly not very useful for the upcoming video game...
All signs point to Kingmaker.
Second Darkness would need a great deal of reworking but if Paizo plays it right and does good job then it could be very entertaining to run through it with a group!
My question is if they release a completely reworked hardcover of Second Darkness or Legacy of Fire will they be done in the new Pathfinder edition or the previous one?
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I'd be more likely to buy a Second Darkness hardcover over Kingmaker, but whatever, they'll do what's best for them.
Whichever they do pick I hope it's super successful. :-)
^I would think actually reasonably likely (at least for Legacy of Fire, even though I'd prefer Second Darkness), since the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition is still pretty recent.
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I think my single biggest heart break about Pathfinder 2.0 is the fact we'll never see SD or LoF updated to Pathfinder 1.0 rules.
I think if those had come out in the next couple of weeks years, combined with a few dungeon heavy APs, I could buy in to 2.0, but all I feel right now is disappointed about 2.0. I'm sure it will pass, but I'm not great with change and that was my single greatest reason for staying with Paizo when D&D 4th Ed. came out.
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Oh, and for the record, if they were going to miraculously squeeze one more 1.0 hardcover in, my vote would be for Second Darkness.
I would buy any adventure path they put out in hardcover like the first two! They are great work and will last a long time. Not to mention they are great to read!
I would like to see all AP's come out in hardcover at some point. I dont see why they could not do 2 of them per year.
I'd be happy to see them, too. However, as to your last sentence, apparently you haven't been paying attention. :-)
I still don't quite understand how people can find those elves in general offensive unless the GM fails fairly spectacularly on communicating "the nice ones want your help and appreciate it, there are a handful of political extremists who don't and one of those turns out to be the villain." Particularly when you've got Shalelu and Kwava to make the first impression, and when the ones who try to assassinate them in Kyonin directly identify themselves as a splinter group by shouting “Death to all who would doubt the Winter Council!”
Because, sadly, the character that the AP established (or, more accurately, reinforced) is wrong. They're not supposed to be anywhere near as offensive as they come across in the AP (partially because, I suspect, you only see the offenders in the AP, not the 90% of the race that is supposed to be nicer).So.. here's how I see the issue...
** spoiler omitted **...
And then it leads to calculations like "ok, we took down the guardians and all runes are ours now, so if we take out just one or two... that ought to still land some rock on the elves.. right?" That is without wrecking home and all of Golarion. The elves bloody well deserve it.
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I would assume those aren't updated though, just collected into one book?
Kinda feeling sad if now only way to see Second Darkness or Legacy of Fire updated is in 2e because I would really prefer running them in 1e, mostly because I'd think game play feel of original 3.5 and 2e can't really be the same
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I would assume those aren't updated though, just collected into one book?
Kinda feeling sad if now only way to see Second Darkness or Legacy of Fire updated is in 2e because I would really prefer running them in 1e, mostly because I'd think game play feel of original 3.5 and 2e can't really be the same
Second Darkness & Legacy of Fire are prime candidates for an update into 2E.
Second Darkness could definitely use a look through, and Legacy of Fire is fantastic and more people should see it and play it.
If I had my choice my top pick would be Kingmaker as its a hugely unique game style that everyone Ive ever met loves and its one flaw (a mediocre ending) can be rewritten
Looking at the earlier APs I think they could use a rewrite just to make them compatible with Pathfinder without conversion. My top pick there would be Legacy of fire and my second choice is curse of the crimson throne.
My personal favorite AP (I havnt played them all) is Serpents skull and I would love to see a hardcover for that. My RL group loved that AP from start to finish and it'll always have a place in my heart too
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Looking at the earlier APs I think they could use a rewrite just to make them compatible with Pathfinder without conversion. My top pick there would be Legacy of fire and my second choice is curse of the crimson throne.
Your second choice was updated and printed over two years ago so you're good for that one.
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Guys, it's over. There will never be any more hardcover compilations of any PF1 adventure paths. That's done.There won't be any hardcover adventure paths for a long time to come -- not until PF2 is firmly on its feet. Years, at least. And even then, they won't be PF1.
PAIZO HAS TO WALK AWAY FROM PF1, GUYS. I know that's painful for a lot of people to hear. But they don't have the resources to support two systems. So they have to bet the farm on PF2. They've been pretty explicit about this -- support for PF1 will be limited, and there will be no new material.
Doug M.
there might well be PF2 conversions of PF1 APs.
nothing stops that. heck, they updated RISE and CURSE to PF rules from 3.5.
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Guys, it's over. There will never be any more hardcover compilations of any PF1 adventure paths. That's done.There won't be any hardcover adventure paths for a long time to come -- not until PF2 is firmly on its feet. Years, at least. And even then, they won't be PF1.
PAIZO HAS TO WALK AWAY FROM PF1, GUYS. I know that's painful for a lot of people to hear. But they don't have the resources to support two systems. So they have to bet the farm on PF2. They've been pretty explicit about this -- support for PF1 will be limited, and there will be no new material.
Doug M.
there might well be PF2 conversions of PF1 APs.
nothing stops that. heck, they updated RISE and CURSE to PF rules from 3.5.
It was mentioned during a Twitch interview that further hardcover collected APs are not economically viable. Which I take as "CotCT didn't sell, we're not risking another one".
It's hard to review an adventure you're still playing, haven't played yet or plan to run. I know, I've tried.
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It was mentioned during a Twitch interview that further hardcover collected APs are not economically viable. Which I take as "CotCT didn't sell, we're not risking another one".
Guys, it's over. There will never be any more hardcover compilations of any PF1 adventure paths. That's done.There won't be any hardcover adventure paths for a long time to come -- not until PF2 is firmly on its feet. Years, at least. And even then, they won't be PF1.
PAIZO HAS TO WALK AWAY FROM PF1, GUYS. I know that's painful for a lot of people to hear. But they don't have the resources to support two systems. So they have to bet the farm on PF2. They've been pretty explicit about this -- support for PF1 will be limited, and there will be no new material.
Doug M.
there might well be PF2 conversions of PF1 APs.
nothing stops that. heck, they updated RISE and CURSE to PF rules from 3.5.
;_;
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Of course, none of this will stop people from sighing wistfully about Second Darkness.
Doug M.
Well, "Pathfinder" 2 stopped me from doing that. Even Second Darkness doesn't deserve to be wasted by the PF2 treatment
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I bought CotCT as soon as it came out. I bet others did too.
Before PF2 releases, I'd love a Second Darkness and LoF hardcover.
It was mentioned during a Twitch interview that further hardcover collected APs are not economically viable. Which I take as "CotCT didn't sell, we're not risking another one".
Guys, it's over. There will never be any more hardcover compilations of any PF1 adventure paths. That's done.There won't be any hardcover adventure paths for a long time to come -- not until PF2 is firmly on its feet. Years, at least. And even then, they won't be PF1.
PAIZO HAS TO WALK AWAY FROM PF1, GUYS. I know that's painful for a lot of people to hear. But they don't have the resources to support two systems. So they have to bet the farm on PF2. They've been pretty explicit about this -- support for PF1 will be limited, and there will be no new material.
Doug M.
there might well be PF2 conversions of PF1 APs.
nothing stops that. heck, they updated RISE and CURSE to PF rules from 3.5.
The Curse of the Crimson Throne hardcover is completely sold out.
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It was mentioned during a Twitch interview that further hardcover collected APs are not economically viable. Which I take as "CotCT didn't sell, we're not risking another one".
Guys, it's over. There will never be any more hardcover compilations of any PF1 adventure paths. That's done.There won't be any hardcover adventure paths for a long time to come -- not until PF2 is firmly on its feet. Years, at least. And even then, they won't be PF1.
PAIZO HAS TO WALK AWAY FROM PF1, GUYS. I know that's painful for a lot of people to hear. But they don't have the resources to support two systems. So they have to bet the farm on PF2. They've been pretty explicit about this -- support for PF1 will be limited, and there will be no new material.
Doug M.
there might well be PF2 conversions of PF1 APs.
nothing stops that. heck, they updated RISE and CURSE to PF rules from 3.5.
The Curse of the Crimson Throne hardcover is completely sold out.
After 2 years. With what it cost to update and put out (not to mention the two different versions), it just didn't sell well enough fast enough to justify risking another one, since Cure is one of the more popular APs.
Spin it how you like.
The Runelords hardcover is not sold out. The Curse hardcover is SOLD OUT in two years.
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Spin it how you like.
The Runelords hardcover is not sold out. The Curse hardcover is SOLD OUT in two years.
???
The Runelords HC not being sold out despite being out even longer is not good either. And this is compounded by the fact that these most likely had lower print runs than their other HCs.
Eventually selling out translates into not economically viable enough.
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To illustrate (and pulling numbers out of the air):
Product A has a 50,000 initial print run and sells 49,999 copies in the first week and sells the last one 3 years later.
Product B has a 5,000 initial print run and sells a couple hundred in the first week and then handfuls before finally selling everything after 2 years.
Product A is vastly more viable than Product B, the fact that Product B 100% sold out technically sooner than Product A means absolutely nothing.
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I believe they've reprinted Runelords, possibly more than once.
After seeing what Owen K. C. Stephens had to say about Apostae in Starfinder times, I want to see a hardcover/anniversary edition of Second Darkness with foreshadowing of Apostae . . . Seems like a great opportunity waiting to be explored.
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After seeing what Owen K. C. Stephens had to say about Apostae in Starfinder times, I want to see a hardcover/anniversary edition of Second Darkness with foreshadowing of Apostae . . . Seems like a great opportunity waiting to be explored.
oh man! thanks for that link!
Apostae is the BEST.
I agree or a revamp of Legacy of Fire or Serpent's Skull.
What will the next Adventure Path hardcover be?
I'm hoping for Kingmaker, considering some of the books are now being sold for $64 online.
I think Legacy of Fire would be a good way to put more details for the geniekin.
Are they planning on doing the 2e APs in hardcover? I know I've got to print my 1e hardbacks myself (although interesting so many more are available in France... anyone know why that is?), sadly, but I sure do love the ease of use of a hardcover and it'd be great to see those happen for 2e at some point, now that they're pot committed to the new system.
The only 2e hardcover that has been announced is the Kingmaker conversion. It took ten years before the first P1e AP was released as a compilation, and I wouldn't expect it for any P2e APs anytime soon. If people expect a hardcover compilation of the APs, they're less likely to buy the separate AP volumes, and if they stop buying the separate AP volumes, that hurts Paizo's business.
Here is a post from Vic Wertz in 2016 when Curse of the Crimson Throne was compiled.
Things I have said before that are still true:
From 2009:
The number one problem with collected APs is that our cash flow relies on constant sales of the current AP volume, and anything that we do that potentially reduces sales of the current volume is harmful to us. Not only would collecting them train some people to wait for the compilations, but it would also be creating a product that competes with the current AP for the attention of new customers. Either one of those is bad enough; taken together, the whole issue becomes a non-starter.
From 2010:
I mentioned it in the Why We Don't Reprint Thread, but I may as well repeat it here:
"The 'no reprints' rule doesn't apply to everything... and 'reinvention' is also possible. So long as it's done in a way that is as appealing as a completely new product, and doesn't train people to always wait for the reinvention."
So an anniversary edition that updates the out-of-print Rise of the Runelords to PFRPG rules is interesting. The ruleset update satisfies the requirements of reinvention to at least some degree; then, so long as we made it clear that this was a one-time exception, and that waiting for, say, a complete Kingmaker compilation would probably be fruitless, that could satisfy the "not training people to wait" rule.
From 2011, after the announcement of the Runelords compilation:
We have *no* plans to compile additional adventure paths. Keeping up sales (and especially subscriptions) of the Pathfinder Adventure Path line is crucial to our business, and if we were to make a habit of regularly compiling APs, many customers would be tempted to opt out of the ongoing series, choosing instead to wait for the compilations.
That would be, frankly, one of the worst possible things that could happen to Paizo.
I won't say we'll never ever compile another Adventure Path, but I will say it would take very very unusual circumstances for us to consider doing another one, no matter how well this one sells.
From 2013:
Allow me to give you another data point. While we rarely talk about print run sizes or sales numbers, we do, every now and then, do blog posts where we tell you which items are getting low on stock—defined as under 1000 copies—in our warehouse. [I then linked to a recent such blog post, which I won't relink since it's terribly out of date.]
From that, you might deduce the following stock levels for each volume of the AP:
Rise of the Runelords:
Sold out: 1, 3, 5, 6
Between 25 and 100 copies: 4
Between 100 and 250 copies: 2
(Total remaining copies: 125-350)Crimson Throne:
Between 25 and 100 copies: 2
Between 500 and 1000 copies: 1, 3
More than 1000 copies: 4, 5, 6
(Total remaining copies: 4025-?)Second Darkness:
More than 1000 copies: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
(Total remaining copies: 6000-?)Legacy of Fire:
Between 500 and 1000 copies: 4
More than 1000 copies: 1, 2, 3, 5, 6
(Total remaining copies: 5500-?)It doesn't take a business degree to see Rise of the Runelords is in a class by itself. It made a standout candidate for a compilation; any other AP would require a lot more justification.
Note: "More copies in the warehouse" does not directly correlate to "fewer copies sold", as print runs vary from volume to volume. But it's safe to assume that a compilation of any of these would drastically reduce the rate of sales of the current printings, so these numbers are certainly one of many factors we'd take into consideration if we were looking to compile one of them—which we are currently not.
From 2014:
I would like to be clear that we do try to avoid saying *never*. When we did the Rise of the Runelords anniversary edition, we said that it was a special circumstance—an exception to the rule—but we haven't said that there will definitely never ever be another exception. But it took 5 years to do the first one, and it's been a few years since that came out, and we're not working on one now.
And some additional comments just for today:
Reprinting APs will continue to be extremely rare. Not never, but rare enough that you shouldn't plan on any given AP ever being compiled. It has been 4 years since the last compilation, and there's no reason to expect the next to come any sooner.
Just as Runelords was when we compiled it, Crimson Throne is now almost sold out in its original form (as of our last low inventory blog in November, the first three volumes were completely sold out, volumes 4 and 5 were under 1000 copies, and volume 6 was under 500), and it benefits from being updated to the current ruleset. While a couple other APs meet one or the other of those, there are no other APs that meet both. Nobody is working on another compilation beyond Curse, and nobody will be working on one anytime soon.
Keep an eye on which P2e volumes start going out of print over the next few years, but I'd honestly expect another P1e AP to be converted to the new edition before they just do a straight compilation of a P2e AP.
There's also the fact that the Kingmaker hardcover is a year behind schedule at this point, so I'm sure they'll focus on getting that out before they jump into any new compilation products.
Why did y’all necro this ancient thread?
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It's less of necromancy and more of stars aligning and great old one returning periodically.
Aka I think they didn't want to make new topic to continue the discussion because inevitable someone is gonna ask what is next hardcover post kingmaker :p Its kinda like how people always ask for next bestiary when one is announced or new edition post one year of game.
If they do more hardcovers, really crossing my finger for Second Darkness or Legacy of Fire, but mostly Second Darkness ;p